 But I would never come to a conclusion that enlightenment is a myth. I just prefer to say "I don't know" and at the same time be open to what the scriptures say.Perhaps it is not a myth, how would you know..
By saying it as a myth, we are rejecting the claim of Upanishads, Brahmasutras and all authentic Buddhish and Jainist scriptures. There has been detailed documentation about how karma works and how one can dissolve the karma in various ways.
If you read more about the life of Ramana Maharishi and Ramakrishna Paramhamsa, it might clear up a lot of things for you.
I wouldn't say that it is a state of perfection, it is a complete destruction. That is why Buddha put everything in a negative way. There is a term in Buddhism called "Sunyata" which can be said as the nature of enlightenment. That word simply means "emptiness"..
The mind that we are trying to use to understand enlightenment is influenced by our karmic structure right now. The way it is right now, mind can never understand what enlightenment is. It can only bring up an idea about enlightenment and then come to a conclusion that, that idea is a myth.
Also, causality is a very loose translation of Karma. It is not that after enlightenment a body/mind is not going to be bound by cause and effect anymore. That cannot be true. Because everything that we know as physical and everything that we can directly observe by mind or through five senses are bound by causality.
Karma can be rather said as a reason why there is life in a certain body. The reason why we are alive is because of Karma.After the death of a body,the particular karmic structure which was working through that body always tries to find a new body so that it can work through its dissolution. So, if I am dead right now, my body and mind will die but the karmic structure, which can be imagined as a bundle of energy waves, is not destroyed. It has its own tendency to find a suitable womb to start its action again. This cycle of births and deaths for a particular karmic structure, which is called 'Samsara', ends only in Moksha. After that the karmic structure simply dissolves and becomes no more, so that consciousness or being which was shining through that karmic structure is all that remains.
Another translation for Karma is 'action'. Karma is what produces action in a living organism. Whatever a person does, including mental action and involuntary actions, has its roots in his karmic structure. So, when the karma completely dissolves there is no question of action. That is why many people die at the time of moksha.
But there are tricks to keep the body alive after moksha. Those tricks are used just to make sure that there is a tiny bit of karmic structure left to function in this world. It can be consciously created and maintained. The only purpose of doing this is to help others towards awakening or enlightenment. This is only done by people who initially had a desire to help other people towards liberation. Those people have been called in many names: an avatar, a guru, a Bodhisattva etc.
This might not make sense to the mind and think that it is absurd. But people who wrote Upanishads and other scriptures didn't really care what the minds of people thought, because they clearly knew that the only way out of suffering and bondage is liberation or moksha.
Thanks for the posts, Robx and Borris83. Robx, as I wrote the post I was actually thinking the word'myth' in my mind, but I chose not to say it. But I agree. Even if real, it is so rare that it is beside the point. What is not beside the point is the easy and simple inquiry that anyone can do to see their essential nature and get rid of fear in their lives (and the desire for salvation). I believe if more people did this it would have a huge impact on the state of the world and fear motivated behavior like greed, conflict, and other forms of neurosis and unconscious would greatly diminish.....but I have no evidence for it, only my own experience.
A simple question to ask of any guru or religion/spiritual practice is 'what are the results?' How many people experience verifiable relief from their suffering as a result from this practice. We do it for therapeutic styles in psychology, why don't we test spiritual systems with the same rigor, or why don't systems, confident in their own effect, engage in independent, reproducible testing?
Outside of this kind of systematic evaluation, spiritual systems stray into the liminal area of myth, hearsay, and (some) con jobs, preying on the pain and vulnerability as a result of suffering in their followers. I have deep respect and love for the ancient wisdom teachings, et. al, but if they are so powerful, why aren't more people transformed by them? The onus is put on the follower to change.....and if they don't they are blamed for not being ready, being too egoic, clinging, or lacking faith and belief. I think the onus should be on the system to demonstrate reproducible results In the average, messed up human.
Exactly Onceler.. I would say, Just practicing the "Power of now" can be very useful for human beings in reducing their suffering to a great extent. It really has the essence of the teachings in Upanishads. Even though I read about enlightenment and what happens after that, the only practice that I have done on a long term is 'listening to the voice in my head without any judegments, as a witnessing presence', which is explained in PON. It is also the core of Osho's teachings as well.
Also, the mindfulness practice in Buddhism is the same concept. Being present while letting the thoughts come and go and watching the breath, sometimes. Mindfulness has been scientifically proven to have great effects on ones well being.
Once a person has certain level of awareness, the deeper teaching can be given accordingly. The authentic spiritual teachings by a qualified Guru are usually given based on the level that the seeker is in. If something unusual is happening when I am doing a meditation, a scripture talking about what is happening can give me clarity on it and assure me that I am on the right path.
I do agree that the spirituality has been widely misused by many people, who pose themselves as teachers and cause more harm than good.
That is a good question. There are lot of reasons. Most of the time, the scriptures are interpreted the wrong way.They are written thousands of years ago and the meanings for words have changed in the long run. Some translations have completely killed the real meaning as well. Many people read the scriptures just to gather information and don't see how they can be transformed by them.
If you read a teaching that comes from an authentic source and understand the real meaning, then as Eckhart says in PON, the truth inside you will respond to the truth you read or hear, and say 'that is correct!'. You can sense it. That why PON has become a best selling book and many people have seen changes.
I would love your comments on that book after reading it. It is very clear and Osho gives a very elaborate commentary. I am reading it at the moment, right now in Chapter 8.
Onceler wrote: The world is not going to get help simply by doing social service or charity; It might help some people but thats not the final answer. If each and every individual begins a journey towards ending his own suffering, only then the world can be saved. That is why enlightenment is stressed so much, because once a human being is realized he is also able to help other people to find their own true self and help to end their suffering as well.
I am of the opinion that not everyone would be/is capable of being enlightened. That does not mean the world is doomed (not yet at least). In fact, humankind evolved in societies and civilizations that are predominantly unawakened. However, humankind are "good" in nature. The moral and justice compass of people are more or less aligned (except of the details and paths which are effected by tradition, religion and social norms). Having said that, I believe that laws and social justice fill in the gap needed to have a functional society and enlightened people had a big role to play and continue to do so.
Enlightened people normally attract surrounding people around them. They have the power to influence and effect change. They are normally far sighted and work based on selfless agendas. Credit, money, fame means nothing to them, unless it serves a purpose. Often, they are not known as "spiritual" or "enlightned" in their societies. They almost never preach people about awareness unless asked to and reaches an intellectual conclusion that it is the situation is appropriate with a receptive audience who is capable of understanding the knowledge given. However, they often provide direct/indirect guidance which they consider suitable for the individual/group to help them realise themselves and that often starts with assisting them in removing their suffering (in whatever form it takes). This is the spirit of all great teachings, human right doctrines and religion. I once been told by a great person that an enlightened person cannot be immoral and/or unjust, because it contradicts with your own true self (since there is only one awareness) and its like someone intentionally harming himself with no reason.
The world would continue to be fine as long as people have their moral and justice compass properly working.
As of the question of pain and suffering, I agree with both your view