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+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Welcome to
+the Huberman Lab podcast,
+where we discuss science
+and science-based tools
+for everyday life.
+[MUSIC PLAYING]
+I'm Andrew Huberman.
+And I'm a professor of
+neurobiology and ophthalmology
+at Stanford School of Medicine.
+My guests today are Mark
+Zuckerberg and Dr. Priscilla
+Chan.
+Mark Zuckerberg,
+as everybody knows,
+founded the company Facebook.
+He is now the CEO of Meta, which
+includes Facebook, Instagram,
+WhatsApp, and other
+technology platforms.
+Dr. Priscilla Chan
+graduated from Harvard
+and went on to do her medical
+degree at the University
+of California San Francisco.
+Mark Zuckerberg and
+Dr. Priscilla Chan
+are married and the
+co-founders of the CZI,
+or Chan Zuckerberg Initiative,
+a philanthropic organization
+whose stated goal is to
+cure all human diseases.
+The Chan Zuckerberg Initiative
+is accomplishing that
+by providing critical funding
+not available elsewhere,
+as well as a novel
+framework for discovery
+of the basic
+functioning of cells,
+cataloging all the
+different human cell
+types, as well as providing
+AI, or artificial intelligence,
+platforms to mine
+all of that data
+to discover new pathways and
+cures for all human diseases.
+The first hour of
+today's discussion
+is held with both Dr. Priscilla
+Chan and Mark Zuckerberg,
+during which we discuss
+the CZI and what it really
+means to try and cure
+all human diseases.
+We talk about the motivational
+backbone for the CZI
+that extends well into each
+of their personal histories.
+Indeed, you'll learn quite a lot
+about Dr. Priscilla Chan, who
+has, I must say, an absolutely
+incredible family story leading
+up to her role as a
+physician and her motivations
+for the CZI and beyond.
+And you'll learn from Mark, how
+he is bringing an engineering
+and AI perspective
+to the discovery
+of new cures for human disease.
+The second half of
+today's discussion
+is just between Mark Zuckerberg
+and me, during which we discuss
+various Meta Platforms,
+including, of course,
+social media platforms, and
+their effects on mental health
+in children and adults.
+We also discuss VR,
+Virtual Reality, as well as
+augmented and mixed reality.
+And we discuss AI,
+Artificial Intelligence,
+and how it stands to transform
+not just our online experiences
+with social media and
+other technologies,
+but how it stands to
+potentially transform
+every aspect of everyday life.
+Before we begin, I'd
+like to emphasize
+that this podcast is separate
+from my teaching and research
+roles at Stanford.
+It is, however, part
+of my desire and effort
+to bring zero cost to
+consumer information
+about science and
+science-related tools
+to the general public.
+In keeping with
+that theme, I'd like
+to thank the sponsors
+of today's podcast.
+Our first sponsor
+is Eight Sleep Eight
+Sleep makes smart mattress
+covers with cooling, heating,
+and sleep tracking capacity.
+I've spoken many times before
+on this podcast about the fact
+that getting a
+great night's sleep
+really is the foundation of
+mental health, physical health
+and performance.
+One of the key things to
+getting a great night's sleep
+is to make sure that the
+temperature of your sleeping
+environment is correct.
+And that's because in order to
+fall and stay deeply asleep,
+your body temperature
+actually has
+to drop by about 1 to 3 degrees.
+And in order to wake up feeling
+refreshed and energized,
+your body temperature
+actually has
+to increase by about
+1 to 3 degrees.
+With Eight Sleep, you can
+program the temperature
+of your sleeping environment
+in the beginning, middle,
+and end of your night.
+It has a number
+of other features,
+like tracking the amount
+of rapid eye movement
+and slow wave
+sleep that you get,
+things that are essential
+to really dialing
+in the perfect
+night's sleep for you.
+I've been sleeping on
+an Eight Sleep mattress
+cover for well
+over two years now.
+And it has greatly
+improved my sleep.
+I fall asleep far more quickly.
+I wake up far less often
+in the middle of the night.
+And I wake up feeling
+far more refreshed
+than I ever did prior to using
+an Eight Sleep mattress cover.
+If you'd like to
+try Eight Sleep,
+you can go to
+eightsleep.com/huberman to save
+$150 off their Pod 3 cover.
+Eight Sleep currently
+ships to the USA,
+Canada, UK, select countries
+in the EU, and Australia.
+Again, that's
+eightsleep.com/huberman.
+Today's episode is also
+brought to us by LMNT.
+LMNT is an electrolyte drink
+that has everything you need
+and nothing you don't.
+That means plenty of
+electrolytes-- sodium,
+magnesium and
+potassium-- and no sugar.
+The electrolytes are absolutely
+essential for the functioning
+of every cell in your body.
+And your neurons,
+your nerve cells,
+rely on sodium,
+magnesium and potassium
+in order to communicate with
+one another electrically and
+chemically.
+LMNT contains the optimal
+ratio of electrolytes
+for the functioning of
+neurons and the other cells
+of your body.
+Every morning, I drink a
+packet of LMNT dissolved
+in about 32 ounces of water.
+I do that just for
+general hydration
+and to make sure that I
+have adequate electrolytes
+for any activities that day.
+I'll often also have an LMNT
+packet, or even two packets,
+in 32 to 60 ounces of water
+if I'm exercising very hard
+and certainly if I'm
+sweating a lot, in order
+to make sure that I
+replace those electrolytes.
+If you'd like to
+try LMNT, you can go
+to drinklmnt.com/huberman to
+get a free sample pack with
+your purchase.
+Again, that's
+drinklmnt.com/huberman.
+I'm pleased to
+announce that we will
+be hosting four live events
+in Australia, each of which
+is entitled The Brain Body
+Contract, during which I will
+share science and
+science-related tools
+for mental health, physical
+health, and performance.
+There will also be a live
+question and answer session.
+We have limited
+tickets still available
+for the event in
+Melbourne on February 10,
+as well as the event in
+Brisbane on February 24.
+Our event in Sydney, at
+the Sydney Opera House,
+sold out very quickly.
+So as a consequence,
+we've now scheduled
+a second event in Sydney
+at the Aware Super Theatre
+on February 18.
+To access tickets to
+any of these events,
+you can go to
+hubermanlab.com/events and use
+the code Huberman at checkout.
+I hope to see you there.
+And as always, thank you for
+your interest in science.
+And now, for my discussion
+with Mark Zuckerberg
+and Dr. Priscilla Chan.
+Priscilla, Mark, so
+great to meet you.
+And thank you for having
+me here in your home.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Oh, Thanks
+for having us on the podcast.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: Yeah.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'd like to
+talk about the CZI, the Chan
+Zuckerberg Initiative.
+I learned about this
+a few years ago,
+when my lab was-- and
+still is now-- at Stanford,
+as a very exciting
+philanthropic effort
+that has a truly big mission.
+I can't imagine
+a bigger mission.
+So maybe you could tell us
+what that big mission is.
+And then we can get into
+some of the mechanics of how
+that big mission can
+become a reality.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: So like
+you're mentioning, in 2015,
+we launched the Chan
+Zuckerberg Initiative.
+And what we were
+hoping to do at CZI
+was think about how do we build
+a better future for everyone
+and looking for ways
+where we can contribute
+the resources that we have
+to bring philanthropically
+and the experiences that
+Mark and I have had,
+for me as a physician
+and educator,
+for Mark as an
+engineer, and then
+our ability to bring teams
+together to build the builders.
+Mark has been a builder
+throughout his career.
+And what could we
+do if we actually
+put together a team to build
+tools, do great science?
+And so within our
+science portfolio,
+we've really been focused
+on what some people think
+is either an incredibly
+audacious goal
+or an inevitable goal.
+But I think about
+it as something
+that will happen if we
+continue focusing on it, which
+is to be able to cure,
+prevent, or manage
+all disease by the
+end of the century.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: All disease?
+PRISCILLA CHAN: All disease.
+So that's important, right?
+And so a lot of times, people
+ask like, which disease?
+And the whole point is that
+there is not one disease.
+And it's really about taking
+a step back to where I always
+found the most hope
+as a physician, which
+is new discoveries
+and new opportunities
+and new ways of understanding
+how to keep people well come
+from basic science.
+So our strategy at CZI is really
+to build tools, fund science,
+change the way basic
+scientists can see the world
+and how they can move
+quickly in their discoveries.
+And so that's what
+we launched in 2015.
+We do work in three ways.
+We fund great scientists.
+We build tools-- right
+now, software tools
+to help move science along and
+make it easier for scientists
+to do their work.
+And we do science.
+You mentioned Stanford
+being an important pillar
+for our science work.
+We've built what we call
+biohubs, institutes where teams
+can take on grand
+challenges to do work that
+wouldn't be possible
+in a single lab
+or within a single discipline.
+And our first
+biohub was launched
+in San Francisco, a
+collaboration between Stanford,
+UC Berkeley, and UCSF.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Amazing.
+Curing all diseases implies
+that there will either
+be a ton of knowledge gleaned
+from this effort, which
+I'm certain there will be--
+and there already has been.
+We can talk about some of those
+early successes in a moment.
+But it also sort of implies
+that if we can understand
+some basic operations
+of diseases and cells
+that transcend autism,
+Huntington's, Parkinson's,
+cancer and any other
+disease that perhaps there
+are some core principles that
+would make the big mission
+a real reality, so to speak.
+What I'm basically saying is,
+how are you attacking this?
+My belief is that the cell sits
+at the center of all discussion
+about disease, given that
+our body is made up of cells
+and different types of cells.
+So maybe you could
+just illuminate for us
+a little bit of what the
+cell is, in your mind,
+as it relates to disease and
+how one goes about understanding
+disease in the context of cells
+because, ultimately, that's
+what we're made up of.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah.
+Well, let's get to the
+cell thing in a moment.
+But just even taking
+a step back from that,
+we don't think,
+at CZI, that we're
+going to cure, prevent
+or manage all diseases.
+The goal is to basically
+give the scientific community
+and scientists around
+the world the tools
+to accelerate the
+pace of science.
+And we spent a lot
+of time, when we
+were getting started
+with this, looking
+at the history of science and
+trying to understand the trends
+and how they've
+played out over time.
+And if you look over
+this very long-term arc,
+most large-scale
+discoveries are preceded
+by the invention of a new tool
+or a new way to see something.
+And it's not just
+in biology, right?
+It's like having
+a telescope came
+before a lot of discoveries
+in astronomy and astrophysics.
+But similarly, the microscope
+and just different ways
+to observe things or
+different platforms,
+like the ability to do
+vaccines preceded the ability
+to cure a lot of
+different things.
+So this is the engineering part
+that you were talking about,
+about building tools.
+We view our goal is to
+try to bring together
+some scientific and engineering
+knowledge to build tools
+that empower the whole field.
+And that's the big arc
+and a lot of the things
+that we're focused on, including
+the work in single cell
+and cell understanding,
+which you can jump in and get
+into that if you want.
+But yeah, I think I
+think we generally
+agree with the
+premise that if you
+want to understand this
+stuff from first principles--
+people study organs a lot right.
+You study how things
+present across the body.
+But there's not a very
+widespread understanding
+of how each cell operates.
+And this is a big part of
+some of the initial work
+that we tried to do on the Human
+Cell Atlas and understanding
+what are the different cells.
+And there's a bunch
+more work that we want
+to do to carry that forward.
+But overall, I think, when we
+think about the next 10 years
+here of this long arc to
+try to empower the community
+to be able to cure, prevent
+or manage all diseases,
+we think that the next
+10 years should really
+be primarily about being
+able to measure and observe
+more things in human biology.
+There are a lot
+of limits to that.
+It's like you want to look at
+something through a microscope,
+you can't usually
+see living tissues
+because it's hard to see through
+skin or things like that.
+So there are a lot of
+different techniques
+that will help us
+observe different things.
+And this is where the
+engineering background
+comes in a bit because--
+I mean, when I think about this
+is from the perspective of how
+you'd write code or
+something, the idea of trying
+to debug or fix a code base,
+but not be able to step
+through the code
+line by line, it's
+not going to happen, right?
+And at the beginning of any
+big project that we do at Meta,
+we like to spend a bunch of
+the time up front just trying
+to instrument things
+and understand
+what are we going to
+look at and how are we
+going to measure things so
+we know we're making progress
+and know what to optimize.
+And this is such a
+long-term journey
+that we think that it actually
+makes sense to take the next 10
+years to build those
+kinds of tools for biology
+and understanding just how the
+human body works in action.
+And a big part of
+that is, cells.
+I don't know.
+Do you want to jump and talk
+about some of the efforts?
+PRISCILLA CHAN: Sure.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Could I just
+interrupt briefly and just ask
+about the different
+interventions, so to speak,
+that CZI is in a unique
+position to bring to the quest
+to cure all diseases?
+So I can think of--
+I mean, I know, as a scientist,
+that money is necessary but not
+sufficient, right?
+When you have money, you
+can hire more people.
+You can try different things.
+So that's critical.
+But a lot of philanthropy
+includes money.
+The other component is you
+want to be able to see things,
+as you pointed out.
+So you want to know that
+normal disease process--
+like, what is a healthy cell?
+What's a diseased cell?
+Are cells constantly being
+bombarded with challenges
+and then repairing those?
+And then what we
+call cancer is just
+a runaway train of
+those challenges
+not being met by the cell
+itself or something like that?
+So better imaging tools.
+And then it sounds like there's
+not just a hardware component,
+but a software component.
+This is where AI comes in.
+So maybe, at some point,
+we can break this up
+into two, three
+different avenues.
+One is understanding
+disease processes
+and healthy processes.
+We'll lump those together.
+Then there's hardware--
+so microscopes,
+lenses, digital
+deconvolution, ways
+of seeing things in bolder
+relief and more precision.
+And then there's how
+to manage all the data.
+And then I love the
+idea that maybe AI
+could do what human
+brains can't do alone,
+like manage
+understanding of the data
+because it's one thing
+to organize data.
+It's another to say, oh,
+this as you point out
+in the analogy with code,
+that this particular gene
+and that particular gene
+are potentially interesting,
+whereas a human
+being would never
+make that potential connection.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: So
+the tools that CZI
+can bring to the table--
+we fund science, like
+you're talking about.
+There's lots of ways
+to fund science.
+And just to be
+clear, what we fund
+is a tiny fraction of what
+the NIH funds, for instance.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: So you guys
+have been generous enough
+that it definitely holds
+wait to NIH's contribution.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: Yeah.
+But I think every funder has
+its own role in the ecosystem.
+And for us, it's
+really, how do we
+incentivize new points of view?
+How do we incentivize
+collaboration?
+How do we incentivize
+open science?
+And so a lot of our grants
+include inviting people
+to look at different fields.
+Our first neuroscience RFA was
+aimed towards incentivizing
+people from different
+backgrounds-- immunologists,
+microbiologists--
+to come and look
+at how our nervous system works
+and how to keep it healthy.
+Or we ask that our
+grantees participate
+in the pre-print
+movement to accelerate
+the rate of sharing knowledge
+and actually others being
+able to build upon science.
+So that's the
+funding that we do.
+In terms of building, we
+build software and hardware,
+like you mentioned.
+We put together
+teams that can build
+tools that are more durable
+and scalable than someone
+in a single lab might
+be incentivized to do.
+There's a ton of great ideas.
+And nowadays, most scientists
+can tinker and build
+something useful for their lab.
+But it's really
+hard for them to be
+able to share that
+tool sometimes
+beyond their own laptop
+or forget the next Lab
+over or across the globe.
+So we partner with scientists
+to see what is useful,
+what kinds of tools.
+In imaging, Napari, it's
+a useful image annotation
+tool that is born from
+an open source community.
+And how can we
+contribute to that?
+Or a CELLxGENE, which works
+on single cell data sets.
+And how can we make it build a
+useful tool so that scientists
+can share data sets,
+analyze their own
+and contribute to a larger
+corpus of information?
+So we have software teams that
+are building, collaborating
+with scientists to make
+sure that we're building
+easy to use, durable,
+translatable tools
+across the scientific community
+in the areas that we work in.
+We also have institutes-- this
+is where the imaging work comes
+in-- where we are proud owners
+of an electron microscope
+right now.
+It's going to be installed
+at our imaging institute.
+And that will really
+contribute to the way
+where we can see
+work differently.
+But more hardware does
+need to be developed.
+We're partnering with
+the fantastic scientists
+in the biohub network to build
+a mini-phase plate to increase
+to align the electrons through
+the electron microscope
+to be able to increase
+the resolution,
+so we can see in sharper detail.
+So there's a lot of innovative
+work within the network that's
+happening.
+And these institutes
+have grand challenges
+that they're working on.
+Back to your
+question about cells,
+cells are just the smallest
+unit that are alive.
+And your body,
+all of our bodies,
+have many, many, many cells.
+Some estimate of like
+37 trillion cells,
+different cells in your body.
+And what are they all doing?
+And what do they look
+like when you're healthy?
+What do they look
+like when you're sick?
+And where we're at right now
+with our understanding of cells
+and what happens
+when you get sick
+is basically we've gotten pretty
+good at, from the Human Genome
+Project, looking at
+how different mutations
+in your genetic
+code lead for you
+to be more susceptible
+to get sick or directly
+cause you to get sick.
+So we go from a mutation
+in your DNA to, wow,
+you now have Huntington's
+disease, for instance.
+And there's a lot that
+happens in the middle.
+And that's one of the questions
+that we're going after at CZI,
+is what actually happens.
+So an analogy that I like to
+use to share with my friends
+is, right now, say we
+have a recipe for a cake.
+We know there's a
+typo in the recipe.
+And then the cake is awful.
+That's all we know.
+We don't know how the
+chef interprets the typo.
+We don't know what
+happens in the oven.
+And we don't actually
+know how it's exactly
+connected to how the
+cake didn't turn out
+or how you had expected it.
+A lot of that is unknown.
+But we can actually
+systematically try
+to break this down.
+And one segment of that
+journey that we're looking at
+is how that mutation
+gets translated and acted
+upon in your cells.
+And all of your cells
+have what's called mRNA.
+mRNA are the actual instructions
+that are taken from the DNA.
+And our work in
+Single-Cell is looking
+at how every cell in your
+body is actually interpreting
+your DNA slightly
+differently and what
+happens when healthy cells
+are interpreting the DNA
+instructions and
+when sick cells are
+interpreting those directions.
+And that is a ton of data.
+I just told you, there's
+37 trillion cells.
+There's different large
+sets of mRNA in each cell.
+But the work that we've been
+funding is looking at how--
+first of all, gathering
+that information.
+We've been incredibly
+lucky to be
+part of a very fast-moving
+field where we've gone from,
+in 2017, funding some
+methods work to now
+having really not complete,
+but nearly complete
+atlases of how the human body
+works, how flies work, how mice
+work at the single-cell
+level and being
+able to then try
+to piece together
+how does that all come
+together when you're healthy
+and when you're sick.
+And the neat thing about
+the inflection point
+where we're at in AI is that
+I can't look at this data
+and make sense of it.
+There's just too much of it.
+And biology is complex.
+Human bodies are complex.
+We need this much information.
+But the use of large
+language models
+can help us actually
+look at that data
+and gain insights,
+look at what trends
+are consistent with health and
+what trends are unsuspected.
+And eventually, our
+hope, through the use
+of these data sets that
+we've helped curate
+and the application of
+large language models,
+is to be able to formulate a
+virtual cell, a cell that's
+completely built off of
+the data sets of what
+we know about the human body,
+but allows us to manipulate,
+and learn faster and
+try new things to help
+move science and
+then medicine along.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Do you think we've
+cataloged the total number
+of different cell types?
+Every week, I look
+at great journals
+like Cell Nature and Science.
+And for instance, I saw
+recently that, using single cell
+sequencing, they've categorized
+18 plus different types
+of fat cells.
+We always think of like a fat
+cell versus a muscle cell.
+So now, you've got 18 types.
+Each one is going to express
+many, many different genes
+and mRNAs.
+And perhaps one of
+them is responsible
+for what we see in
+advanced type 2 diabetes,
+or in other forms of obesity,
+or where people can't lay down
+fat cells, which turns out
+to be just as detrimental
+in those extreme cases.
+So now, you've got all
+these lists of genes.
+But I always thought of single
+cell sequencing as necessary,
+but not sufficient, right?
+You need the information, but
+it doesn't resolve the problem.
+And I think of it more as
+a hypothesis-generating
+experiment.
+OK, so you have all these genes.
+And you can say, well,
+this gene is particularly
+elevated in the diabetic
+cell type of, let's say,
+one of these fat cells or
+muscle cells for that matter,
+whereas it's not
+in non-diabetics.
+So then of the millions
+of different cells,
+maybe only five of them
+differ dramatically.
+So then you generate
+a hypothesis.
+Oh, it's the ones that
+differ dramatically
+that are important.
+But maybe one of those genes,
+when it's only 50% changed,
+has a huge effect because of
+some network biology effect.
+And so I guess what I'm
+trying to get to here
+is how does one
+meet that challenge.
+And can AI help
+resolve that challenge
+by essentially placing
+those lists of genes
+into 10,000 hypotheses?
+Because I'll tell you
+that the graduate students
+and postdocs in my lab
+get a chance to test one
+hypothesis at a time.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: I know.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: And that's
+really the challenge,
+let alone one lab.
+And so for those
+that are listening
+to this-- and
+hopefully, it's not
+getting outside the scope
+of standard understanding
+or the understanding
+we've generated here.
+But what I'm
+basically saying is,
+you have to pick at some point.
+More data always sounds great.
+But then how do you
+decide what to test?
+PRISCILLA CHAN: So no, we
+don't know all the cell types.
+I think one thing that was
+really exciting when we first
+launched this work
+was cystic fibrosis.
+Cystic fibrosis is caused
+by mutation in CFTR.
+That's pretty well known.
+It affects a certain channel
+that makes it hard for mucus
+to be cleared.
+That's the basics
+of cystic fibrosis.
+When I went to medical
+school, it was taught as fact.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: So their
+lungs fill up with fluid.
+These are people who
+are carrying around
+sacks of fluid filling up.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: Yep.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I've worked
+with people like that.
+And they have to literally
+dump the fluid out.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: Exactly.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: They can't
+run or do intense exercise.
+Life is shorter.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: Life is shorter.
+And when we applied single-cell
+methodologies to the lungs,
+they discovered an
+entirely new cell type
+that actually is affected by
+a mutation in the CF mutation,
+in cystic fibrosis
+mutation, that
+actually changes
+the paradigm of how
+we think about cystic fibrosis.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Amazing.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: [? Just ?]
+[? unknown. ?] So I don't think
+we know all the cell types.
+I think we'll continue
+to discover them.
+And we'll continue to discover
+new relationships between cell
+and disease, which leads me
+to the second example I want
+to bring up, is
+this large data set
+that the entire
+scientific community has
+built around single cell.
+It's starting to allow us to
+say this mutation, where is it
+expressed?
+What types of cell
+types it's expressed in?
+And we actually
+have built a tool
+at CZI called CELLxGENE, where
+you can put in the mutation
+that you're interested in.
+And it gives you a heat
+map of cross cell types
+of which cell types are
+expressing the gene that you're
+interested in.
+And so then you can
+start looking at, OK,
+if I look at gene X and I know
+it's related to heart disease--
+but if you look at
+the heat map, it's
+also spiking in the pancreas.
+That allows you to
+generate a hypothesis.
+Why?
+And what happens when
+this gene is mutated
+and the function
+of your pancreas?
+Really exciting way to look
+and ask questions differently.
+And you can also
+imagine a world where
+if you're trying to develop a
+therapy, a drug, and the goal
+is to treat the
+function in the heart,
+but you know that
+it's also really
+active in the pancreas again.
+So is there going to be
+an unexpected side effect
+that you should think
+about as you're bringing
+this drug to clinical trials?
+So it's an incredibly
+exciting tool
+and one that's only
+going to get better
+as we get more and
+more sophisticated
+ways to analyze the data.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+I must say, I love
+that because if I look at
+the advances in neuroscience
+over the last 15
+years, most of them
+didn't necessarily come from
+looking at the nervous system.
+They came from the understanding
+that the immune system
+impacts the brain.
+Everyone prior to that
+talked about the brain
+as an immune-privileged organ.
+What you just said
+also bridges the divide
+between single cells,
+organs and systems, right?
+Because ultimately,
+cells make up organs.
+Organs make up systems.
+And they're all
+talking to one another.
+And everyone nowadays is
+familiar with gut-brain axis
+or the microbiome
+being so important.
+But rarely is the discussion
+between organs discussed,
+so to speak.
+So I think it's wonderful.
+So that tool was
+generated by CZI.
+Or CCI funded that tool?
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: We built that.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: We built it.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: You built it.
+So is it built by Meta?
+Is this Meta?
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: No, no,
+it has its own engineers.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Got it.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah.
+They're completely
+different organizations.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Incredible.
+And so a graduate
+student or postdoc
+who's interested in
+a particular mutation
+could put this mutation
+into this database.
+That graduate student
+or postdoc might
+be in a laboratory known
+for working on heart,
+but suddenly find that
+they're collaborating
+with other scientists that work
+on the pancreas, which also
+is wonderful because
+it bridges the divide
+between these fields.
+Fields are so
+siloed in science--
+not just different
+buildings, but people
+rarely talk, unless things
+like this are happening.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: I mean, the
+graduate student is someone
+that we want to empower
+because, one, they're
+the future of
+science, as you know.
+And within CELLxGENE,
+if you put in the gene
+you're interested in and
+it shows you the heat map,
+we also will pull up the most
+relevant papers to that gene.
+And so read these things.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+That's fantastic.
+As we all know,
+quality nutrition
+influences, of course, our
+physical health, but also
+our mental health and our
+cognitive functioning--
+our memory, our ability to
+learn new things and to focus.
+And we know that one of
+the most important features
+of high quality
+nutrition is making sure
+that we get enough vitamins
+and minerals from high quality,
+unprocessed, or
+minimally processed
+sources, as well as enough
+probiotics, and prebiotics
+and fiber to support
+basically all
+the cellular
+functions in our body,
+including the gut microbiome.
+Now, I, like most everybody
+try to get optimal nutrition
+from whole foods, ideally mostly
+from minimally processed or non
+processed foods.
+However, one of the challenges
+that I and so many other people
+face is getting enough
+servings of high quality fruits
+and vegetables per
+day, as well as
+fiber and probiotics that
+often accompany those fruits
+and vegetables.
+That's why, way back in
+2012, long before I ever
+had a podcast, I
+started drinking AG1.
+And so I'm delighted that AG1
+is sponsoring the Huberman Lab
+podcast.
+The reason I started taking
+AG1 and the reason I still
+drink AG1 once or
+twice a day is that it
+provides all of my
+foundational nutritional needs.
+That is, it provides
+insurance that I
+get the proper amounts of those
+vitamins, minerals, probiotics
+and fiber to ensure optimal
+mental health, physical
+health and performance.
+If you'd like to try AG1, you
+can go to drinkag1.com/huberman
+to claim a special offer.
+They're giving away
+five free travel
+packs plus a year's
+supply of vitamin D3 K2.
+Again, that's
+drinkag1.com/huberman to claim
+that special offer.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: I just think
+going back to your question
+from before are there going
+to be more cell types that
+get discovered?
+I mean, I assume so, right?
+I mean, no catalog of
+this stuff is ever--
+it doesn't seem like
+we're ever done.
+we keep on finding more.
+But I think that that
+gets to one of the things
+that I think are the
+strengths of modern LLMs,
+is the ability to imagine
+different states that things
+can be in.
+So from all the work that
+we've done and funded
+on the Human Cell Atlas, there
+is a large corpus of data
+that you can now train a
+kind of large-scale model on.
+And one of the things
+that we're doing at CZI,
+which I think is
+pretty exciting,
+is building what we think is one
+of the largest non-profit life
+sciences AI clusters.
+It's on the order of 1,000 GPUs.
+And it's larger than what
+most people have access
+to in academia that you can do
+serious engineering work on.
+And by basically
+training a model
+with all of the
+Human Cell Atlas Data
+and a bunch of other
+inputs as well,
+we think you'll be able
+to basically imagine
+all of the different
+types of cells and all
+the different states that they
+can be in, and when they're
+healthy and diseased,
+and how they'll
+interact with different--
+interact with each
+other, interact
+with different potential drugs.
+But I think the state
+of LLMs, I think
+this is where it's
+helpful to understand--
+have a good understanding
+and be grounded
+in the modern state of AI.
+I mean, these things
+are not foolproof.
+I mean, one of the
+flaws of modern LLMs
+is they hallucinate.
+So the question is,
+how do you make it
+so that that can be an advantage
+rather than a disadvantage?
+And I think the way that it
+ends up being an advantage
+is when they help you
+imagine a bunch of states
+that someone could be in, but
+then you, as the scientist
+or engineer, go and validate
+that those are true,
+whether they're solutions
+to how a protein can
+be folded or possible
+states that a cell could
+be in when it's interacting
+with other things.
+But we're not yet
+at the state with AI
+that you can just take the
+outputs of these things
+as gospel and run from there.
+But they are very good,
+I think as you said,
+hypothesis generators or
+possible solution generators
+that then you can go validate.
+So I think that that's
+a very powerful thing
+that we can basically--
+building on the first
+five years of science work
+around the Human Cell Atlas
+and all the data that's
+been built out-- carry
+that forward into something
+that I think is going to be a
+very novel tool going forward.
+And that's the type
+of thing that I
+think we're set up to do well.
+I mean, you had this exchange a
+little while back about funding
+levels and how CZI is just a
+drop in the bucket compared
+to NIH.
+The thing that I think we
+can do that's different
+is funding some of these
+longer term, bigger projects.
+It is hard to galvanize
+the and pull together
+the energy to do that.
+And it's a lot of what most
+science funding is, relatively
+small projects
+that are exploring
+things over relatively
+short time horizons.
+And one of the things
+that we try to do
+is build these tools over
+5, 10, 15-year periods.
+They're often
+projects that require
+hundreds of millions
+of dollars of funding
+and world-class engineering
+teams and infrastructure to do.
+And that, I think, is a pretty
+cool contribution to the field
+that I think is--
+there aren't as
+many other folks who
+are doing that kind of thing.
+But that's one of
+the reasons why
+I'm personally excited
+about the virtual cell stuff
+because it just this perfect
+intersection of all the
+stuff that we've
+done in single cell,
+the previous collaborations
+that we've done with the field
+and bringing together
+the industry and AI
+expertise around this.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Yeah, I completely
+agree that the model of science
+that you're putting together
+with CZI isn't just
+unique from NIH,
+but it's extremely
+important that
+the independent
+investigator model is what's
+driven the progression of
+Science in this country
+and, to some extent, in Northern
+Europe for the last 100 years.
+And it's wonderful,
+on the one hand,
+because it allows for that
+image we have of a scientist
+tinkering away or the people
+in their lab, and then
+the eurekas.
+And that hopefully translates
+to better human health.
+But I think, in my opinion,
+we've moved past that model
+as the most effective model
+or the only model that
+should be explored.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah, I
+just think it's a balance.
+You want that.
+But you want to
+empower those people.
+I think that that's these
+tools empower those folks.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Sure.
+And there are mechanisms
+to do that, like NIH.
+But it's hard to do
+collaborative science.
+It's interesting that we're
+sitting here not far--
+because I grew up right
+near here as well.
+I'm not far from the garage
+model of tech, right?
+The Hewlett-Packard model,
+not far from here at all.
+And the idea was the tinkerer
+in the garage, the inventor.
+And then people often
+forget that to implement
+all the technologies
+they discovered
+took enormous factories
+and warehouses.
+So there's a similarity there
+to Facebook, Meta, et cetera.
+But I think, in
+science, we imagine
+that the scientists
+alone in their laboratory
+and those eureka moments.
+But I think, nowadays, the
+big questions really require
+extensive collaboration and
+certainly tool development.
+And one of the tools that
+you keep coming back to
+is these LLMs, these
+large language models.
+And maybe you could
+just elaborate,
+for those that aren't familiar.
+What is a large language model?
+For the uninformed, what is it?
+And what does it allow us to
+do that different, other types
+of AI don't allow?
+Or more importantly,
+perhaps what
+does it allow us to do that a
+bunch of really smart people,
+highly informed in a
+given area of science,
+staring at the data--
+what can it do
+that they can't do?
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Sure.
+So I think a lot of the
+progression of machine learning
+has been about building systems,
+neural networks or otherwise,
+that can basically make sense
+and find patterns in larger
+and larger amounts of data.
+And there was a breakthrough
+a number of years
+back that some folks
+at Google actually made
+called this transformer
+model architecture.
+And it was this
+huge breakthrough
+because before then there
+was somewhat of a cap
+where if you fed more
+data into a Neural Network
+past some point,
+it didn't really
+glean more insights from
+it, whereas transformers
+just-- we haven't seen
+the end of how big that
+can scale to yet.
+I mean, I think that
+there's a chance
+that we run into some ceiling.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: So
+it never asymptotes?
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: We
+haven't observed it yet.
+But we just haven't built
+big enough systems yet.
+So I would guess that--
+I don't know.
+I think that this
+is actually one
+of the big questions
+in the AI field today,
+is basically, are transformers
+and are the current model
+architectures sufficient?
+If you just build larger
+and larger clusters,
+do you eventually
+get something that's
+like human intelligence
+or super intelligence?
+Or is there some kind
+of fundamental limit
+to this architecture that
+we just haven't reached yet?
+And once we get a little bit
+further in building them out,
+then we'll reach that.
+And then we'll need
+a few more leaps
+before we get to the
+level of AI that I
+think will unlock
+a ton of really
+futuristic and amazing things.
+But there's no doubt
+that even just being
+able to process
+the amount of data
+that we can now with
+this model architecture
+has unlocked a lot
+of new use cases.
+And the reason why they're
+called large language models is
+because one of the first uses
+of them is people basically
+feed in all of the language
+from, basically, the world
+wide web.
+And you can think about them as
+basically prediction machines.
+You put in a prompt.
+And it can basically
+predict a version
+of what should come next.
+So you type in a headline
+for a news story.
+And it can predict what it
+thinks the story should be.
+Or you could train
+it so that it could
+be a chat, bot
+where, OK, if you're
+prompted with this question,
+you, can get this response.
+But one of the
+interesting things
+is it turns out that there's
+actually nothing specific
+to using human language in it.
+So if instead of feeding
+it human language, if you
+use that model architecture
+for a network and instead
+you feed it all of the
+Human Cell Atlas Data,
+then if you prompt it
+with a state of a cell,
+it can spit out
+different versions
+of how that cell can
+interact or different states
+that the cell could be
+in next when it interacts
+with different things.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Does it have
+to take a genetics class?
+So for instance, if you give
+it a bunch of genetics data,
+do you have to say, hey,
+by the way, and then
+you give it a genetics class so
+it understands that you've got
+DNA, RNA, mRNA, and proteins?
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: No, I think
+that the basic nature of all
+these machine learning
+techniques is they're
+basically pattern
+recognition systems.
+So there are these very
+deep statistical machines
+that are very efficient
+at finding patterns.
+So it's not actually--
+you don't need to teach
+a language model that's
+trying to speak a language
+a lot of specific things
+about that language either.
+You just feed it in
+a bunch of examples.
+And then let's say you teach
+it about something in English,
+but then you also give
+it a bunch of examples
+of people speaking Italian.
+It'll actually be able to
+explain the thing that it
+learned in English in Italian.
+So the crossover and just
+the pattern recognition
+is the thing that is pretty
+profound and powerful
+about this.
+But it really does apply to
+a lot of different things.
+Another example in the
+scientific community
+has been the work
+that AlphaFold,
+basically the folks at DeepMind,
+have done on protein folding.
+It's just basically a lot of
+the same model architecture.
+But instead of
+language, there they
+fold they fed in all
+of these protein data.
+And you can give it a state.
+And it can spit out solutions to
+how those proteins get folded.
+So it's very powerful.
+I don't think we know
+yet, as an industry, what
+the natural limits of it are.
+I think that that's one
+of the things that's
+pretty exciting about
+the current state.
+But it's certainly allows
+you to solve problems
+that just weren't solved with
+the generation of machine
+learning that came before it.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+It sounds like CZI
+is moving a lot of work that was
+just done in vitro, in dishes,
+and in vivo, in
+living organisms,
+model organisms are humans,
+to in silico, as we say.
+So do you foresee a future where
+a lot of biomedical research,
+certainly the work of CZI
+included, is done by machines?
+I mean, obviously,
+it's much lower cost.
+And you can run millions
+of experiments, which,
+of course, is not to
+say that humans are not
+going to be involved.
+But I love the idea that we
+can run experiments in silico
+en masse.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: I think
+in silico experiments are
+going to be incredibly helpful
+to test things quickly,
+cheaply and just unleash
+a lot of creativity.
+I do think you need to be
+very careful about making
+sure it still translates
+and matches the humans.
+One thing that's
+funny in basic science
+is we've basically cured
+every single disease in mice.
+We know what's going on when
+they have a number of diseases
+because they're used
+as a model organism.
+But they are not humans.
+And a lot of times,
+that research
+is relevant, but not
+directly one-to-one
+translatable to humans.
+So you just have to be really
+careful about making sure
+that it actually
+works for humans.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Sounds
+like what CZI is doing
+is actually creating
+a new field.
+As I'm hearing all of
+this, I'm thinking, OK,
+this transcends immunology
+department, cardiothoracic
+surgery, I mean neuroscience.
+I mean, the idea of a new field,
+where you certainly embrace
+the realities of
+universities and laboratories
+because that's where most of
+the work that you're funding
+is done.
+Is that right?
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Mm-hmm.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+So maybe we need
+to think about what it means
+to do science differently.
+And I think that's one of the
+things that's most exciting.
+Along those lines, it seems
+that bringing together
+a lot of different
+types of people
+at different major
+institutions is going
+to be especially important.
+So I know that the initial
+CZI Biohub, gratefully,
+included Stanford.
+We'll put that
+first in the list,
+but also UCSF, forgive me.
+I have many friends at
+UCSF and also Berkeley.
+But there are now some
+additional institutions
+involved.
+So maybe you could
+talk about that,
+and what motivated the decision
+to branch outside the Bay Area
+and why you selected those
+particular additional
+institutions to be included.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Well,
+I'll just say it.
+A big part of why we wanted
+to create additional biohubs
+is we were just so
+impressed by the work
+that the folks who were
+running the first biohub did.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: Yeah.
+And you should walk
+through the work
+of the Chicago Biohub
+and the New York Biohub
+that we just announced.
+But I think it's actually an
+interesting set of examples
+that balance the
+limits of what you want
+to do with physical
+material engineering
+and where things are
+purely biological
+because the Chicago team
+is really building more
+sensors to be able to understand
+what's going on in your body.
+But that's more of a physical
+kind of engineering challenge,
+whereas the New York
+team-- we basically
+talk about this as like a
+cellular endoscope of being
+able to have an immune
+cell or something that
+can go and understand,
+what's the thing that's
+going on in your body?
+But it's not a physical
+piece of hardware.
+It's a cell that you can
+basically have just go report
+out on different things that
+are happening inside the body.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh, so making
+the cell the the microscope.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: Totally.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: And
+then eventually actually
+being able to act on it.
+But I mean, you should go
+into more detail on all this.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: So
+a core principle
+of how we think about biohubs
+is that it has to be--
+when we invited
+proposals, it has
+to be at least
+three institutions,
+so really breaking down the
+barrier of a single university,
+oftentimes asking for the
+people designing the research
+aim to come from all different
+backgrounds and to explain why
+that the problem that
+they want to solve
+requires interdisciplinary,
+inter-university, institution
+collaboration to
+actually make happen.
+We just put that
+request for proposal
+out there with our
+San Francisco Biohub
+as an example,
+where they've done
+incredible work in single cell
+biology and infectious disease.
+And we got--
+I want to say--
+like 57 proposals
+from over 150 institutions.
+A lot of ideas came together.
+And we were so, so
+excited that we've
+been able to launch
+Chicago and New York.
+Chicago is a collaboration
+between UIUC,
+University of Illinois
+Urbana-Champaign,
+and University of
+Chicago and Northwestern.
+Obviously, these universities
+are multifaceted.
+But if I were to describe
+them by their stereotypical
+strength, Northwestern has
+an incredible medical system
+and hospital system.
+University of Chicago
+brings to the table
+incredible basic
+science strengths.
+University of Illinois is
+a computing powerhouse.
+And so they came
+together and proposed
+that they were going
+to start thinking
+about cells in tissue,
+so one of the layers
+that you just alluded to.
+So how do the cells that we know
+behave and act differently when
+they come together as a tissue?
+And one of the first tissues
+that they're starting with
+is skin.
+So they've already been
+able to, as a collaboration
+under the leadership, of
+Shana Kelly design engineered
+skin tissue.
+The architecture looks the
+same as what's in you and I.
+And what they've done is
+built these super, super thin
+sensors.
+And they embed these sensors
+throughout the layers
+of this engineered tissue.
+And they read out the data.
+They want to see what
+these cells are secreting,
+how these cells
+talk to each other
+and what happens when
+these cells get inflamed.
+Inflammation is an
+incredibly important process
+that drives 50% of all deaths.
+And so this is another
+disease-agnostic approach.
+We want to understand
+inflammation.
+And they're going to
+get a ton of information
+out from these sensors that tell
+you what happens when something
+goes awry because
+right now we can say,
+when you have an
+allergic reaction,
+your skin gets red and puffy.
+But what is the
+earliest signal of that?
+And these sensors can
+look at the behaviors
+of these cells over time.
+And then you can apply
+a large language model
+to look at the earliest
+statistically significant
+changes that can allow you to
+intervene as early as possible.
+So that's what Chicago's doing.
+They're starting
+in the skin cells.
+They're also looking at the
+neuromuscular junction, which
+is the connection between where
+a neuron attaches to a muscle
+and tells the muscle
+how to behave--
+super important in things
+like ALS, but also in aging.
+The slowed transmission
+of information
+across that
+neuromuscular junction
+is what causes old
+people to fall.
+Their brain cannot trigger their
+muscles to react fast enough.
+And so we want to
+be able to embed
+these sensors to understand how
+these different, interconnected
+systems within our
+bodies work together.
+In New York, they're doing a
+related, but equally exciting
+project where they're
+engineering individual cells
+to be able to go in and identify
+changes in a human body.
+So what they'll do is--
+they're calling it--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's wild.
+I mean, I love that.
+I mean, this is--
+I don't want to go on a tangent.
+But for those that want to
+look it up adaptive optics,
+there's a lot of
+distortion and interference
+when you try and look
+at something really
+small or really far away.
+And really smart
+physicists figured out,
+well, use the interference
+as part of the microscope.
+Make those actually
+lenses of the microscope.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: We
+should talk about imaging
+separately after you talk
+about the New York Biohub.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's extremely
+clever, along those lines.
+It's not intuitive.
+But then when you hear it, it's
+like it makes so much sense.
+It's not immediately intuitive.
+Make the cells that already
+can navigate to tissues
+or embed themselves in
+tissues be the microscope
+within that tissue.
+I love it.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: Totally.
+The way that I explain
+this to my friends
+and my family is this
+is Fantastic Voyage,
+but real life.
+We are going into
+the human body.
+And we're using the immune
+cells, which are privileged
+and already working to
+keep your body healthy,
+and being able to target them
+to examine certain things.
+So you can engineer an immune
+cell to go in your body
+and look inside your
+coronary arteries and say,
+are these arteries healthy?
+Or are there plaques?
+Because plaques
+lead to blockage,
+which lead to heart attacks.
+And the cell can then
+record that information
+and report it back out.
+That's the first half
+of what the New York
+Biohub is going to do.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Fantastic.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: The
+second half is can you
+then engineer the cells to
+go do something about it.
+Can I then tell
+a different cell,
+immune cell that is able
+to transport in your body
+to go in and clean that
+up in a targeted way?
+And so it's incredibly exciting.
+They're going to
+study things that
+are immune privilege, that
+your immune system normally
+doesn't have access to--
+things like ovarian
+and pancreatic cancer.
+They'll also look at a number
+of neurodegenerative diseases,
+since the immune system doesn't
+presently have a ton of access
+into the nervous system.
+But it's both mind blowing
+and it feels like sci-fi.
+But science is
+actually in a place
+where if you really push
+a group of incredibly
+qualified scientists
+say, could you do this
+if given the chance, the
+answer is like probably.
+Give us enough time, the
+bright team and resources.
+It's doable.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah.
+I mean, it's a 10
+to 15-year project.
+But it's awesome,
+engineered cells, yeah.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I
+love the optimism.
+And the moment you said make
+the cell the microscope,
+so to speak, I was
+like yes, yes and yes.
+It just makes so much sense.
+What motivated the decision
+to do the work of CZI
+in the context of existing
+universities as opposed to--
+there's still some real
+estate up in Redwood City
+where there's a bunch of
+space to put biotech companies
+and just hiring people
+from all backgrounds
+and saying, hey, have at it and
+doing this stuff from scratch?
+I mean, it's a very
+interesting decision
+to do this in the
+context of an existing
+framework of graduate students
+that need to do their thesis
+and get a first author
+paper because there's
+a whole set of structures
+within academia
+that I think both
+facilitate, but also limit
+the progression of science.
+That independent
+investigator model
+that we talked about
+a little bit earlier,
+it's so core to the way
+science has been done.
+This is very different
+and frankly sounds
+far more efficient, if I'm
+to be completely honest.
+And we'll see if I renew my
+NIH funding after saying that.
+But I think we all
+want the same thing.
+As scientists and
+as humans, we want
+to understand the way we work.
+And we want healthy people
+to persist to be healthy.
+And we want sick
+people to get healthy.
+I mean, that's really
+ultimately the goal.
+It's not super complicated.
+It's just hard to do.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: So the
+teams at the biohub
+are actually independent
+of the universities.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Got it.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: So each
+biohub will probably
+have in total maybe 50 people
+working on deep efforts.
+However, it's an acknowledgment
+that not all of the best
+scientists who can
+contribute to this area
+are actually going to, one,
+want to leave a university
+or want to take on the
+full-time scope of this project.
+So it's the ability to
+partner with universities
+and to have the faculty
+at all the universities
+be able to contribute
+to the overall project,
+is how the biohub is structured.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Got it.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: But a lot of
+the way that we're approaching
+CZI is this long-term,
+iterative project
+to figure out-- try a
+bunch of different things,
+figure out which things produce
+the most interesting results,
+and then double down on those
+in the next five-year push.
+So we just went
+through this period
+where we wrapped
+up the first five
+years of the science program.
+And we tried a lot
+of different models,
+all kinds of different things.
+And it's not that
+the biohub model--
+we don't think it's
+the best or only model.
+But we found that it was
+a really interesting way
+to unlock a bunch
+of collaboration
+and bring some
+technical resources that
+allow for this longer
+term development.
+And it's not something that
+is widely being pursued
+across the rest of the field.
+So we figured, OK, this
+is an interesting thing
+that we can help push on.
+But I mean, yeah, we do
+believe in the collaboration.
+But I also think that
+we come at this with--
+we don't think that the way
+that we're pursuing this
+is the only way to
+do this or the way
+that everyone should do it.
+We're pretty aware of what
+is the rest of the ecosystem
+and how we can play
+a unique role in it.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: It
+feels very synergistic
+with the way science
+is already done
+and also fills an incredibly
+important niche that,
+frankly, wasn't filled before.
+Along the lines of
+implementation--
+so let's say your large language
+models combined with imaging
+tools reveal that a
+particular set of genes acting
+in a cluster--
+I don't know-- set
+up an organ crash.
+Let's say the pancreas
+crashes at a particular stage
+of pancreatic cancer.
+I mean, it's still one of the
+most deadliest of the cancers.
+And there are others that you
+certainly wouldn't want to get.
+But that's among the ones you
+wouldn't want to get the most.
+So you discover that.
+And then and the
+idea is that, OK,
+then AI reveals
+some potential drug
+targets that then bear
+out in vitro, in a dish
+and in a mouse model.
+How is the actual implementation
+to drug discovery?
+Or maybe this target is
+druggable, maybe it's not.
+Maybe it requires
+some other approach--
+laser ablation
+approach or something.
+We don't know.
+But ultimately,
+is CZI going to be
+involved in the implementation
+of new therapeutics?
+Is that the idea?
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Less so.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: Less so.
+This is where it's important
+to work in an ecosystem
+and to know your
+own limitations.
+There are groups, and
+startups and companies
+that take that and bring it to
+translation very effectively.
+I would say the
+place where we have
+a small window into
+that world is actually
+our work with rare
+disease groups.
+We have, through our
+Rare As One portfolio,
+funded patient advocates
+to create rare disease
+organizations where patients
+come together and actually pool
+their collective experience.
+They build
+bioregistries, registries
+of their natural history.
+And they both partner
+with researchers
+to do the research
+about their disease
+and with drug developers to
+incentivize drug developers
+to focus on what they may
+need for their disease.
+And one thing that's
+important to point out
+is that rare
+diseases aren't rare.
+There are over
+7,000 rare diseases
+and collectively impact
+many, many individuals.
+And I think the thing
+that's, from a basic science
+perspective, the incredibly
+fascinating thing
+about rare diseases is that
+they're actually windows to how
+the body normally should work.
+And so there are often
+mutations that when
+genes that when they're mutated
+cause very specific diseases,
+but that tell you how the
+normal biology works as well.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Got it.
+So you discussed basically the
+major goals and initiatives
+of the CZI for the next,
+say, 5 to 10 years.
+And then beyond
+that, the targets
+will be explored by
+biotech companies.
+They'll grab those targets, and
+test them and implement them.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG:
+There's also, I think,
+been a couple of teams from
+the initial biohub that
+were interested in spinning
+out ideas into startups.
+So even though it's
+not a thing that we're
+going to pursue because
+we're a philanthropy,
+we want to enable
+the work that gets
+done to be able to get turned
+into companies and things
+that other people
+go take and run
+towards building
+ultimately therapeutics.
+So that's another zone.
+But that's not a thing
+that we're going to do.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Got it.
+I gather you're both optimists.
+Yeah?
+Is that part of what
+brought you together?
+Forgive me for switching
+to a personal question.
+But I love the
+optimism that seems
+to sit at the root of the CZI.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: I
+will say that we
+are incredibly hopeful people.
+But it manifests in different
+ways between the two of us.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: How
+would you describe
+your optimism versus mine?
+It's not a loaded question.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: I don't know.
+Huh.
+I mean, I think I'm more
+probably technologically
+optimistic about
+what can be built.
+And I think you, because of
+your focus as an actual doctor,
+have more of a
+sense of how that's
+going to affect actual
+people in their lives,
+whereas, for me, it's like--
+I mean, a lot of my
+work is we touch a lot
+of people around the world.
+And the scale is immense.
+And I think, for
+you, it's like being
+able to improve the
+lives of individuals,
+whether it's students at any of
+the schools that you've started
+or any of the stuff that we've
+supported through the education
+work, which isn't the
+goal here, or just
+being able to improve people's
+lives in that way I think
+is the thing that I've seen
+be super passionate about.
+I don't know.
+Do you agree with
+that characterization?
+I'm trying I'm trying to--
+PRISCILLA CHAN: Yeah,
+I agree with that.
+I think that's very fair.
+And I'm sort of
+giggling to myself
+because in day-to-day
+life, as life partners,
+our relative optimism
+comes through
+as Mark just is overly
+optimistic about his time
+management and will get
+engrossed in interesting ideas.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: I'm late.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: And he's late.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Physicians
+are very punctual, yeah.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: And
+because he's late,
+I have to channel Mark
+is an optimist whenever
+I'm waiting for him.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: That's
+such a nice way of--
+OK, I'll start using that.
+PRISCILLA CHAN:
+That's what I think
+when I'm in the driveway with
+the kids waiting for you.
+I'm like, Mark is an optimist.
+And so his optimism
+translates to some tardiness,
+whereas I'm a how is this
+going to happen like.
+I'm going to open a spreadsheet.
+I'm going to start
+putting together a plan
+and pulling together
+all the pieces,
+calling people to bring
+something to life.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: But it is one
+of my favorite quotes, that
+is optimists tend
+to be successful
+and pessimists tend to be right.
+And yeah, I mean, I
+think it's true in a lot
+of different aspects of life.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Who said that?
+Did you say that,
+Mark Zuckerberg?
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: No, I did not.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: Absolutely not.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: No, no, no.
+I like it.
+I did not invent it.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+We'll give it to you.
+We'll put it out there.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: No, no, no.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Just
+kidding, just kidding.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: But I do
+think that there's really
+something to it, right?
+I mean, if you're
+discussing any idea,
+there's all these reasons
+why it might not work.
+And those reasons
+are probably true.
+The people who are stating them
+probably have some validity
+to it.
+But the question is, is that
+the most productive way to view
+the world?
+Across the board,
+I think the people
+who tend to be the
+most productive
+and get the most done--
+you kind of need
+to be optimistic
+because if you don't believe
+that something can get done,
+then why would
+you go work on it?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+The reason I ask
+the question is that these days
+we hear a lot about the future
+is looking so dark in
+these various ways.
+And you have children.
+So you have families.
+And you are a family, excuse me.
+And you also have
+families independently
+that are now merged.
+But I love the
+optimism behind the CZI
+because, behind
+all this, there's
+a set of big
+statements on the wall.
+One, the future can be
+better than the present,
+in terms of treating disease,
+maybe even, you said,
+eliminating diseases,
+all diseases.
+I love that optimism.
+And there's a tractable
+path to do it.
+We're going to put literally
+money, and time, and energy,
+and people, and technology
+and AI behind that.
+And so I have to ask,
+was having children
+a significant modifier in terms
+of your view of the future?
+Like wow, you hear all
+this doom and gloom.
+What's the future going
+to be like for them?
+Did you sit back and
+think, what would it
+look like if there was a
+future with no diseases?
+Is that the future, we
+want our children in?
+I mean, I'm voting a big yes.
+So we're not we're not
+going to debate that at all.
+But was having
+children an inspiration
+for the CZI in some way?
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah.
+So
+PRISCILLA CHAN: I think
+my answer to that--
+I would dial backwards for me.
+And I'll just tell a very
+brief story about my family.
+I'm the daughter of
+Chinese-Vietnamese refugees.
+My parents and grandparents
+were boat people,
+if you remember
+people left Vietnam
+during the war in these small
+boats into the South China Sea.
+And there were stories about
+how these boats would sink
+with whole families on them.
+And so my
+grandparents, both sets
+of grandparents who
+knew each other,
+decided that there was a
+better future out there.
+And they were willing
+to take risks for it.
+But they were afraid of
+losing all of their kids.
+My dad is one of six.
+My mom is one of 10.
+And so they decided
+that there was something
+out there in this bleak time.
+And they paired up their
+kids, one from each family,
+and sent them out on
+these little boats
+before the internet, before
+cell phones, and just said,
+we'll see you on the other side.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Wow.
+PRISCILLA CHAN:
+And the kids were
+between the ages of like
+10 to 25, so young kids.
+My mom was a teenager, early
+teen when this happened.
+And everyone made it.
+And I get to sit
+here and talk to you.
+So how could I not believe
+that better is possible?
+And like I hope that that's
+in my epigenetics somewhere
+and that I carry on.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: That
+is a spectacular story.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: Isn't that wild?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+It is spectacular.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: How can I
+be a pessimist with that?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I love it.
+And I so appreciate that
+you became a physician
+because you're now
+bringing that optimism,
+and that epigenetic
+understanding,
+and cognitive understanding
+and emotional understanding
+to the field of medicine.
+So I'm grateful to the people
+that made that decision.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: Yeah.
+I've always known that story.
+But you don't understand
+how wild that feels
+until you have your own child.
+And you're like,
+well, I can't even--
+I refuse to let her use glass
+bottles only or something
+like that.
+And you're like, oh my God,
+the risk and the willingness
+of my grandparents to believe
+in something bigger and better
+is just astounding.
+And our own children give
+it a sense of urgency.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Again,
+a spectacular story.
+And you're sending knowledge
+out into the fields of science
+and bringing knowledge
+into the fields of science.
+And I love this.
+We'll see you on the other side.
+I'm confident that it
+will all come back.
+Well, thank you
+so much for that.
+Mark, you have the
+opportunity to talk about--
+did having kids
+change your worldview?
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: It's really
+tough to beat that story.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: It is
+tough to beat that story.
+And they are also your children.
+So in this case, you get two for
+the price of one, so to speak.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Having
+children definitely changes
+your time horizon.
+So I think that
+that's one thing.
+There are all these things that
+I think we had talked about,
+for as long as we've known
+each other, that you eventually
+want to go do.
+But then it's like,
+oh, we're having kids.
+We need to get on this, right?
+So I think that there's--
+PRISCILLA CHAN:
+That was actually
+one of the checklists, the baby
+checklist before the first.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: It was
+like, the baby's coming.
+We have to start CZI.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: Truly.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: I'm like
+sitting in the hospital
+delivery room finishing
+editing the letter that we
+were going to publish
+to announce the work.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: Some people
+think that is an exaggeration.
+It was not.
+We really were editing
+the final draft.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Birthed CZI before you
+birthed the human child.
+Well, it's an
+incredible Initiative.
+I've been following it
+since its inception.
+And it's already been
+tremendously successful.
+And everyone in the
+field of science--
+and I have a lot of
+communication with those
+folks--
+feels the same way.
+And the future is even
+brighter for it, it's clear.
+And thank you for expanding
+to the Midwest and New York.
+And we're all very excited to
+see where all of this goes.
+I share in your optimism.
+And thank you for
+your time today.
+PRISCILLA CHAN: Yeah, thank you.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Thank you.
+A lot more to do.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'd like
+to take a quick break
+and thank our sponsor,
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+Again, that's
+insidetracker.com/huberman.
+And now for my discussion
+with Mark Zuckerberg.
+Slight shift of topic here--
+you're extremely
+well-known for your role
+in technology development.
+But by virtue of your
+personal interests
+and also where Meta
+technology interfaces
+with mental health
+and physical health,
+you're starting to become
+synonymous with health,
+whether you realize it or not.
+Part of that is because
+there's posts, footage
+of you rolling jiu jitsu.
+You won a jiu jitsu
+competition recently.
+You're doing other forms of
+martial arts, water sports,
+including surfing,
+and on and on.
+So you're doing it yourself.
+But maybe we could just
+start off with technology
+and get this issue out
+of the way first, which
+is that I think many people
+assume that technology,
+especially technology that
+involves a screen, excuse
+me, of any kind is going to
+be detrimental to our health.
+But that doesn't necessarily
+have to be the case.
+So could you explain
+how you see technology
+meshing with, inhibiting,
+or maybe even promoting
+physical and mental health?
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Sure.
+I mean, I think this is
+a really important topic.
+The research that we've
+done suggests that it's not
+all good or all bad.
+I think how you're
+using the technology has
+a big impact on
+whether it is basically
+a positive experience for you.
+And even within technology,
+even within social media,
+there's not one type of
+thing that people do.
+I think, at its best, you're
+forming meaningful connections
+with other people.
+And there's a lot of research
+that basically suggests
+that it's the
+relationships that we have
+and the friendships that bring
+the most happiness in our lives
+and, at some level,
+end up even correlating
+with living a longer
+and healthier life
+because that grounding
+that you have in community
+ends up being
+important for that.
+So I think that aspect
+of social media,
+which is the ability to connect
+with people, to understand
+what's going on
+in people's lives,
+have empathy for them,
+communicate what's
+going on with your life,
+express that, that's
+generally positive.
+There are ways that
+it can be negative,
+in terms of bad interactions,
+things like bullying,
+which we can talk about because
+there's a lot that we've
+done to basically make sure that
+people can be safe from that
+and give people tools and
+give kids the ability to have
+the right parental controls.
+Their parents can oversee that.
+But that's the interacting
+with people side.
+There's another
+side of all of this,
+which I think of as just
+passive consumption, which,
+at its best, is entertainment.
+And entertainment is an
+important human thing, too.
+But I don't think that that
+has quite the same association
+with the long-term well-being
+and health benefits
+as being able to help people
+connect with other people does.
+And I think, at its worst, some
+of the stuff we see online--
+I think, these days,
+a lot of the news
+is just so relentlessly
+negative that it's just
+hard to come away
+from an experience
+where looking at the
+news for half an hour
+and feel better about the world.
+So I think that
+there's a mix on this.
+I think the more
+that social media
+is about connecting
+with people and the more
+that when you're consuming
+and using the media
+part of social media to
+learn about things that
+enrich you and can provide
+inspiration or education as
+opposed to things that
+just leave you with a more
+toxic feeling, that's the
+balance that we try to get
+right across our products.
+And I think we're pretty
+aligned with the community
+because, at the end of
+the day, I mean, people
+don't want to use a product
+and come away feeling bad.
+There's a lot that
+people talk about--
+evaluate a lot of
+these products in terms
+of information and utility.
+But I think it's
+as important, when
+you're designing a
+product, to think
+about what kind of
+feeling you're creating
+with the people who
+use it, whether that's
+an aesthetic sense when
+you're designing hardware,
+or just what do you
+make people feel.
+And generally, people don't
+want to feel bad, right?
+That doesn't mean that
+we want to shelter people
+from bad things that are
+happening in the world.
+But I don't really think that--
+it's not what people
+want for us to just
+be just showing all this super
+negative stuff all day long.
+So we work hard on all these
+different problems-- making
+sure that we're helping connect
+people as best as possible,
+helping make sure that
+we give people good tools
+to block people who
+might be bullying them,
+or harass them, or
+especially for younger folks,
+anyone under the age of 16
+defaults into an experience
+where their
+experience is private.
+We have all these
+parental tools.
+So that way, parents can
+understand what their children
+are up to in a good balance.
+And then on the
+other side, we try
+to give people tools
+to understand how
+they're spending their time.
+We try to give people tools
+so that if you're a teen
+and you're stuck in some
+loop of just looking
+at one type of content,
+we'll nudge you and say, hey,
+you've been looking at content
+of this type for a while.
+How about something else?
+And here's a bunch
+of other examples.
+So I think that there
+are things that you
+can do to push this in
+a positive direction.
+But I think it just
+starts with having
+a more nuanced view of this
+isn't all good or all bad.
+And the more that you
+can make it a positive
+thing, the better this
+will be for all the people
+who use our products.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: That
+makes really good sense.
+In terms of the negative
+experience, I agree.
+I don't think anyone wants
+a negative experience
+in the moment.
+I think where some people
+get concerned perhaps--
+and I think about my own
+interactions with, say,
+Instagram, which I use all the
+time for getting information
+out, but also
+consuming information.
+And I happen to love it.
+It's where I
+essentially launched
+the non-podcast segment of
+my podcast and continue to.
+I can think of experiences
+that are a little bit
+like highly
+processed food, where
+it tastes good at the time.
+It's highly engrossing.
+But it it's not
+necessarily nutritious.
+And you don't feel
+very good afterwards.
+So for me, that would
+be the little collage
+of default options to
+click on in Instagram.
+Occasionally, I
+notice-- and this just
+reflects my failure, not
+Instagram's, that there
+are a lot of street
+fight things,
+like people beating
+people up on the street.
+And I have to say, these have a
+very strong gravitational pull.
+I'm not somebody that enjoys
+seeing violence, per se.
+But you know I find myself--
+I'll click on one of
+these, like what happened?
+And I'll see someone get hit.
+And there's a little melee
+on the street or something.
+And those seem to be
+offered to me a lot lately.
+And again, this is
+my fault. It reflects
+my prior searching experience.
+But I noticed that it has a bit
+of a gravitational pull, where
+I didn't learn anything.
+It's not teaching me any
+useful street self-defense
+skills of any kind.
+And at the same time,
+I also really enjoy
+some of the cute animal stuff.
+And so I get a
+lot of those also.
+So there's this
+polarized collage
+that's offered to me that
+reflects my prior search
+behavior.
+You could argue that the
+cute animal stuff is just
+entertainment.
+But actually, it fills
+me with a feeling,
+in some cases, that
+truly delights me.
+I delight in animals.
+And we're not just
+talking about kittens.
+I mean, animals I've
+never seen before,
+interactions between
+animals I've never seen
+before that truly delight me.
+They energize me
+in a positive way
+that when I leave Instagram,
+I do think I'm better off.
+So I'm grateful for the
+algorithm in that sense.
+But I guess, the direct question
+is, is the algorithm just
+reflective of what one
+has been looking at a lot
+prior to that moment
+where they log on?
+Or is it also trying to do
+exactly what you described,
+which is trying to give people
+a good-feeling experience that
+leads to more good feelings?
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah.
+I mean, I think we try to
+do this in a long-term way.
+I think one simple
+example of this
+is we had this issue
+a number of years back
+about clickbait
+news, so articles
+that would have basically
+a headline that grabbed
+your attention,
+that made you feel
+like, oh, I need
+to click on this.
+And then you click on it.
+And then the article is
+actually about something that's
+somewhat tangential to it.
+But people clicked on it.
+So the naive version of this
+stuff, the 10-year-old version
+was like, oh, people seem
+to be clicking on this.
+Maybe that's good.
+But it's actually a pretty
+straightforward exercise
+to instrument the system to
+realize that, hey, people
+click on this, and
+then they don't really
+spend a lot of time reading
+the news after clicking on it.
+And after they do
+this a few times,
+it doesn't really correlate
+with them saying that they're
+having a good experience.
+Some of how we
+measure this is just
+by looking at how
+people use the services.
+But I think it's also
+important to balance
+that by having real people
+come in and tell us,
+OK-- we show them, here are
+the stories that we could have
+showed you, which of these
+are most meaningful to you,
+or would make it so that you
+have the best experience,
+and just mapping the
+algorithm and what
+we do to that ground truth of
+what people say that they want.
+So I think that, through
+a set of things like that,
+we really have made large
+steps to minimize things
+like clickbait over time.
+It's not like gone
+from the internet.
+But I think we've done a
+good job of minimizing it
+on our services.
+Within that though,
+I do think that we
+need to be pretty
+careful about not
+being paternalistic about what
+makes different people feel
+good.
+So I mean, I don't
+know that everyone
+feels good about cute animals.
+I mean, I can't
+imagine that people
+would feel really bad about it.
+But maybe they don't have as
+profound of a positive reaction
+to it as you just expressed.
+And I don't know.
+Maybe people who are
+more into fighting
+would look at the
+street fighting videos--
+assuming that they're within
+our community standards.
+I think that there's
+a level of violence
+that we just don't want
+to be showing at all.
+But that's a separate question.
+But if they are, I
+mean, then it's like--
+I mean, I'm pretty into MMA.
+I don't get a lot of
+street fighting videos.
+But if I did, maybe I'd feel
+like I was learning something
+from that.
+I think at various times
+in the company's history,
+we've been a little bit too
+paternalistic about saying,
+this is good content, this
+is bad, you should like this,
+this is unhealthy for you.
+And I think that we want to
+look at the long-term effects.
+You don't want to get
+stuck in a short term
+loop of like, OK,
+just because you
+did this today doesn't
+mean it's what you
+aspire for yourself over time.
+But I think, as long as you
+look at the long-term of what
+people both say they want and
+what they do, giving people
+a fair amount of latitude to
+like the things that they like,
+I just think feels like
+the right set of values
+to bring to this.
+Now, of course, that
+doesn't go for everything.
+There are things that are truly
+off limits and things that--
+like bullying, for example, or
+things that are really inciting
+violence, things like that.
+I mean, we have the
+whole community standards
+around this.
+But I think, except
+for those things
+which I would hope that
+most people can agree, OK,
+bullying is bad--
+I hope that 100% of
+people agree with that.
+And not 100%, maybe 99%.
+Except for the things that
+kind of get that very--
+that feel pretty extreme
+and bad like that,
+I think you want to
+give people space
+to like what they want to like.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yesterday, I
+had the very good experience
+of learning from the Meta team
+about safety protections that
+are in place for kids who
+are using Meta Platforms.
+And frankly, I was really
+positively surprised
+at the huge number of
+filter-based tools and just
+ability to customize the
+experience so that it can stand
+the best chance of enriching--
+not just remaining neutral,
+but enriching their
+mental health status.
+One thing that came about
+in that conversation,
+however, was I realized
+there are all these tools.
+But do people really know
+that these tools exist?
+And I think about my own
+experience with Instagram.
+I love watching Adam Mosseri's
+Friday Q&As because he explains
+a lot of the tools that
+I didn't know existed.
+And if people haven't
+seen that, I highly
+recommend they watch that.
+I think he takes
+questions on Thursdays
+and answers them
+most every Fridays.
+So if I'm not aware of the tools
+without watching that, that
+exists for adults,
+how does Meta look
+at the challenge of making sure
+that people know that there
+are all these tools--
+I mean, dozens and dozens
+of very useful tools?
+But I think most of us just
+know the hashtag, the tag,
+the click, stories versus feed.
+We now know that--
+I also post to Threads.
+I mean, so we know the
+major channels and tools.
+But this is like
+owning a vehicle that
+has incredible features
+that one doesn't
+realize can take you off road,
+can allow your vehicle to fly.
+I mean, there's a lot there.
+So what do you
+think could be done
+to get that information out?
+Maybe this conversation could
+cue people to [INAUDIBLE]..
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: I mean, that's
+part of the reason why I wanted
+to talk to you about this.
+I mean, I think most of the
+narrative around social media
+is not, OK, all of
+the different tools
+that people have to
+control their experience.
+It's the narrative of
+is this just negative
+for teens or something.
+And I think, again,
+a lot of this
+comes down to how is the
+experience being tuned.
+Are people using it to
+connect in positive ways?
+And if so, I think
+it's really positive.
+So yeah, I mean, I
+think part of this
+is we probably just need to
+get out and talk to people more
+about it.
+And then there's an
+in-product aspect,
+which is if you're a
+teen and you sign up,
+we take you through a pretty
+extensive experience that
+tries to outline some of this.
+But that has limits, too,
+because when you sign up
+for a new thing, if you're
+bombarded with here's
+a list of features, you're like,
+OK, I just signed up for this.
+I don't really understand much
+about what the service is.
+Let me go find some
+people to follow
+who are my friends on
+here before I learn
+about controls to prevent people
+from harassing me or something.
+That's why I think it's
+really important to also show
+a bunch of these
+tools in context.
+So if you're
+looking at comments,
+and if you go to
+delete a comment,
+or you go to edit something, try
+to give people prompts in line.
+It's like, hey, did that
+you can manage things
+in these ways around that?
+Or when you're in the inbox
+and you're filtering something,
+remind people in line.
+So just because of
+the number of people
+who use the products
+and the level of nuance
+around each of the controls,
+I think the vast majority
+of that education, I think,
+needs to happen in the product.
+But I do think that through
+conversations like this
+and others that we
+need to be doing,
+I think we can create a broader
+awareness that those things
+exist so that way at
+least people are primed
+so that way when those things
+pop up in the product people,
+they're like, oh yeah, I knew
+that there was this control.
+And here's how I would use that.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I find
+the restrict function
+to be very useful, more than the
+block function in most cases.
+I do sometimes have
+to block people.
+But the restrict
+function is really useful
+that you could filter
+specific comments.
+You might recognize that
+someone has a tendency
+to be a little aggressive.
+And I should point out that
+I actually don't really
+mind what people say to me.
+But I try and maintain
+what I call classroom rules
+in my comment section, where
+I don't like people attacking
+other people because I
+would never tolerate that
+in the university classroom.
+I'm not going to tolerate
+that in the comments section,
+for instance.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah.
+And I think that the example
+that you just used about
+restrict versus block gets to
+something about product design
+that's important, too, which
+is that block is this very
+powerful tool that if someone
+is giving you a hard time
+and you just want them to
+disappear from the experience,
+you can do it.
+But the design trade-off with
+that is that in order to make
+it so that the person is
+just gone from the experience
+and that you don't
+show up to them,
+they don't show up to you--
+inherent to that is
+that they will have
+a sense that you blocked them.
+And that's why I think some
+stuff like restrict or just
+filtering, like
+I just don't want
+to see as much stuff
+about this topic--
+people like using different
+tools for very subtle reasons.
+I mean, maybe you want the
+content to not show up,
+but you don't want
+the person who's
+posting the content to know that
+you don't want it to show up.
+Maybe you don't want to get the
+messages in your main inbox,
+but you don't want to tell the
+person actually that you're not
+friends or something like that.
+You actually need to give
+people different tools that
+have different levels
+of power and nuance
+around how the social
+dynamics around using them
+play out in order
+to really allow
+people to tailor the experience
+in the ways that they want.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+In terms of trying
+to limit total amount
+of time on social media,
+I couldn't find really
+good data on this.
+How much time is too much?
+I mean, I think
+it's going to depend
+on what one is looking at, the
+age of the user, et cetera.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: I agree.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I
+know that you have
+tools that cue the
+user to how long
+they've been on
+a given platform.
+Are there tools
+to self-regulate--
+I'm thinking about the Greek
+myth of the sirens and people
+tying themselves to the
+mast and covering their eyes
+so that they're not
+drawn in by the sirens.
+Is there a function aside from
+deleting the app temporarily
+and then reinstalling it every
+time you want to use it again?
+Is there a true lockout,
+self-lockout function
+where one can lock themselves
+out of access to the app?
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Well, I
+think we give people tools
+that let them manage this.
+And there's the tools
+that you get to use.
+And then there's the
+tools that the parents
+get to use to basically
+see how usage works.
+But yeah, I think that
+there's different--
+I think, for now,
+we've mostly focused
+on helping people
+understand this,
+and then give people reminders
+and things like that.
+It's tough, though, to
+answer the question that you
+were talking about before.
+Is there an amount of
+time which is too much?
+Because it does really
+get to what you're doing.
+If you fast forward
+beyond just the
+apps that we have today
+to an experience that
+is like a social
+experience in the future
+of the augmented reality
+glasses or something
+that we're building,
+a lot of this
+is going to be you're
+interacting with people
+in the way that you
+would physically
+as if you were like
+hanging out with friends
+or working with people.
+But now, they can
+show up as holograms.
+And you can feel like you're
+present right there with them,
+no matter where
+they actually are.
+And the question is,
+is there too much
+time to spend interacting
+with people like that?
+Well, at the limit,
+if we can get
+that experience to be
+as rich and giving you
+as good of a sense of presence
+as you would have if you were
+physically there
+with someone, then I
+don't see why you would want to
+restrict the amount that people
+use that technology
+to any less than what
+would be the amount of time
+that you'd be comfortable
+interacting with
+people physically,
+which obviously is not
+going to be 24 hours a day.
+You have to do other stuff.
+You have work.
+You need to sleep.
+But I think it really gets to
+how you're using these things,
+whereas if what you're
+primarily using the services for
+is you're getting stuck in loops
+reading news or something that
+is really getting you into
+a negative mental state,
+then I don't know.
+I mean, I think that
+there's probably
+a relatively short
+period of time
+that maybe that's a good thing
+that you want to be doing.
+But again, even
+then it's not zero
+because just because news
+might make you unhappy
+doesn't mean that
+the answer is to be
+unaware of negative things that
+are happening in the world.
+I just think that
+different people
+have different tolerances for
+what they can take on that.
+And I think it's
+generally having
+some awareness is probably
+good, as long as it's not more
+than you're constitutionally
+able to take.
+So I don't know.
+I try not be too paternalistic
+about this as our approach.
+But we want to empower
+people by giving them
+the tools, both people and,
+if you're a teen, your parents
+to have tools to understand
+what you're experiencing
+and how you're using these
+things, and then go from there.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah.
+I think it requires of all of us
+some degree of self-regulation.
+I like this idea of not
+being too paternalistic.
+I mean, it seems like
+the right way to go.
+I find myself
+occasionally having
+to make sure that I'm not
+just passively scrolling,
+that I'm learning.
+I like foraging for, organizing
+and dispersing information.
+That's been my life's career.
+So I've learned so
+much from social media.
+I find great
+papers, great ideas.
+I think comments are a
+great source of feedback.
+And I'm not just saying that
+because you're sitting here.
+I mean, Instagram in particular,
+but other Meta platforms
+have been tremendously
+helpful for me to get science
+and health information out.
+One of the things that
+I'm really excited about,
+which I only had the chance to
+try for the first time today,
+is your new VR platform,
+the newest Oculus.
+And then we can talk about
+the glasses, the Ray-Bans.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Sure.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Those two experiences
+are still kind of blowing
+my mind, especially
+the Ray-Ban glasses.
+And I have so many
+questions about this.
+So I'll resist.
+But--
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: We
+can get into that.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: OK.
+Well, yeah, I have some
+experience with VR.
+My Lab has used VR.
+Jeremy Bailenson's
+Lab at Stanford
+is one of the pioneering
+labs of VR and mixed reality.
+I guess they used to call it
+augmented reality, but now
+mixed reality.
+I think what's so
+striking about the VR
+that you guys had me try today
+is how well it interfaces
+with the real room, let's
+call it, the physical room.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Physical.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I
+could still see people.
+I could see where
+the furniture was.
+So I wasn't going to
+bump into anything.
+I could see people's smiles.
+I could see my
+water on the table
+while I was doing this what
+felt like a real martial arts
+experience, except I
+wasn't getting hit.
+Well, I was getting
+hit virtually.
+But it's extremely engaging.
+And yet, on the
+good side of things,
+it really bypasses a lot
+of the early concerns
+that Bailenson Lab--
+again, Jeremy's Lab-- was
+early to say that, oh, there's
+a limit to how much VR one
+can or should use each day,
+even for the adult brain
+because it can really
+disrupt your vestibular
+system, your sense of balance.
+All of that seems
+to have been dealt
+with in this new
+iteration of VR.
+I didn't come out of it
+feeling dizzy at all.
+I didn't feel like I was
+reentering the room in a way
+that was really jarring.
+Going into it is
+obviously, Whoa,
+this is a different world.
+But you can look to your left
+and say, oh, someone just
+came in the door.
+Hey, how's it going?
+Hold on, I'm playing
+this game, just
+as it was when I was a
+kid playing in Nintendo
+and someone would walk in.
+It's fully engrossing.
+But you'd be like, hold on.
+And you see they're there.
+So first of all,
+bravo, incredible.
+And then the next question
+is, what do we even
+call this experience?
+Because it is
+truly really mixed.
+It's a truly mixed
+reality experience.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah.
+I mean, mixed reality
+is the umbrella term
+that refers to the
+combined experience
+of virtual and
+augmented reality.
+So augmented reality is
+what you're eventually
+going to get with some future
+version of the smart glasses,
+where you're primarily
+seeing the world,
+but you can put holograms in it.
+So we'll have a
+future where you're
+going to walk into a room.
+And there are going to
+be as many holograms
+as physical objects.
+If you just think about all the
+paper, the art, physical games,
+media, your workstation--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: If
+we refer to, let's
+say, an MMA fight, we could just
+draw it up on the table right
+here and just see it repeat
+as opposed to us turning
+and looking at a screen.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah.
+I mean, pretty much
+any screen that exists
+could be a hologram in the
+future with smart glasses.
+There's nothing that
+actually physically needs
+to be there for that
+when you have glasses
+that can put a hologram there.
+And it's an interesting
+thought experiment
+to just go around and think
+about, OK, what of the things
+that are physical in the world
+need to actually be physical.
+Your chair does, right?
+Because you're sitting on it.
+A hologram isn't
+going to support you.
+But like that art
+on the wall, I mean,
+that doesn't need to
+physically be there.
+So I think that that's the
+augmented reality experience
+that we're moving towards.
+And then we've had these
+headsets that historically we
+think about as VR.
+And that has been something
+that is like a fully
+immersive experience.
+But now, we're getting
+something that's
+a hybrid in between
+the two and capable
+of both, which is a headset
+that can do both virtual reality
+and some of these augmented
+reality experiences.
+And I think that
+that's really powerful,
+both because you're going to
+get new applications that allow
+people to collaborate together.
+And maybe the two of
+us are here physically,
+but someone joins us and
+it's their avatar there.
+Or maybe it's some
+version in the future.
+You're having a team meeting.
+And you have some
+people there physically.
+And you have some
+people dialing in.
+And they're basically like
+a hologram, there virtually.
+But then you also
+have some AI personas
+that are on your
+team that are helping
+you do different things.
+And they can be embodied as
+avatars and around the table
+meeting with you.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Are people are going
+to be doing first dates that
+are physically separated?
+I could imagine that
+some people would--
+is it even worth leaving
+the house type date?
+And then they find out.
+And then they meet
+for the first time.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: I mean, maybe.
+I think dating has physical
+aspects to it, too.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Right.
+Some people might
+not be-- they want
+to know whether
+or not it's worth
+the effort to head out or not.
+They want to bridge
+the divide, right?
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: It is possible.
+I mean, I know
+some of my friends
+who are dating basically
+say that in order
+to make sure that they have
+a safe experience, if they're
+going on a first
+date, they'll schedule
+something that's shorter and
+maybe in the middle of the day.
+So maybe it's coffee.
+So that way, if they
+don't like the person,
+they can just get out
+before going and scheduling
+a dinner or a real, full date.
+So I don't know.
+Maybe in the future,
+people will have
+that experience where
+you can feel like you're
+kind of sitting there.
+And it's and it's even easier,
+and lighter weight and safer.
+And if you're not having
+a good experience,
+you can just teleport
+out of there and be gone.
+But yeah, I think that this
+will be an interesting question
+in the future.
+There are clearly a lot of
+things that are only possible
+physically that--
+or are so much
+better physically.
+And then there are
+all these things
+that we're building up that
+can be digital experiences.
+But it's this weird
+artifact of how
+this stuff has been developed
+that the digital world
+and the physical world
+exist in these completely
+different planes.
+When you want to interact
+with the digital world--
+we do it all the time.
+But we pull out a small screen.
+Or we have a big screen.
+And just basically,
+we're interacting
+with the digital world
+through these screens.
+But I think if we
+fast forward a decade
+or more, I think one of the
+really interesting questions
+about what is the
+world that we're
+going to live in, I think
+it's going to increasingly
+be this mesh of the
+physical and digital worlds
+that will allow us to feel, A,
+that the world that we're in
+is just a lot richer
+because there can be all
+these things that people create
+that are just so much easier
+to do digitally than physically.
+But B, you're going to have a
+real physical sense of presence
+with these things and
+not feel like interacting
+in the digital world
+is taking you away
+from the physical world,
+which today is just
+so much viscerally
+richer and more powerful.
+I think the digital world
+will be embedded in that
+and will feel just as
+vivid in a lot of ways.
+So that's why I
+always think-- when
+you were saying before, you
+felt like you could look
+around and see the real room.
+I actually think there's
+an interesting kind
+of philosophical distinction
+between the real room
+and the physical room,
+which historically I
+think people would have said
+those are the same thing.
+But I actually
+think, in the future,
+the real room is going
+to be the combination
+of the physical world with
+all the digital artifacts
+and objects that are in there
+that you can interact with them
+and feel present, whereas the
+physical world is just the part
+that's physically there.
+And I think it's possible
+to build a real world that's
+the sum of these two
+that will actually
+be more profound experience
+than what we have today.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Well, I was struck
+by the smoothness of the
+interface between the VR
+and the physical room.
+Your team had me try a--
+I guess it was an exercise
+class in the [INAUDIBLE]..
+But it was essentially
+like hitting mitts boxing,
+so hitting targets boxing.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG:
+Yeah, super natural.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, and it
+comes at a fairly fast pace
+that then picks up.
+It's got some tutorial.
+It's very easy to use.
+And it certainly got
+my heart rate up.
+And I'm in at
+least decent shape.
+And I have to be
+honest, I've never
+once desired to do any of
+these on-screen fitness things.
+I mean, I can't think of
+anything more aversive than a--
+I don't want to insult
+any particular products,
+but riding a stationary
+bike while looking
+at a screen pretending
+I'm on a road outside.
+I can't think of
+anything worse for me.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: I do
+like the leaderboard.
+Maybe I'm just a very
+competitive person.
+If you're going to be
+running on a treadmill,
+at least give me a
+leaderboard so I can beat
+the people who are ahead of me.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I like
+moving outside and certainly
+an exercise class
+or aerobics class,
+as they used to call them.
+But the experience I tried
+today was extremely engaging.
+And I've done enough
+boxing to at least know
+how to do a little bit of it.
+And I really enjoyed it.
+It gets your heart rate up.
+And I completely
+forgot that I was
+doing an on-screen experience
+in part because, I believe,
+I was still in
+that physical room.
+And I think there's
+something about the mesh
+of the physical room and
+the virtual experience that
+makes it neither of
+one world or the other.
+I mean, I really felt at
+the interface of those.
+And I certainly got
+presence, this feeling
+of forgetting that I was
+in a virtual experience
+and got my heart rate
+up pretty quickly.
+We had to stop because we
+were going to start recording.
+But I would do that for a good
+45 minutes in the morning.
+And there's no amount of
+money you could pay me truly
+to look at a screen
+while pedaling on a bike
+or running on a treadmill.
+So again, bravo, I think
+it's going to be very useful.
+It's going to get people
+moving their bodies more,
+which certainly--
+social media, up until now,
+and a lot of technologies
+have been accused of limiting
+the amount of physical activity
+that both children and
+adults are engaged in.
+And we know we need
+physical activity.
+You're a big proponent
+of and practitioner
+of physical activity.
+So is this a major goal
+of Meta, to get people
+moving their bodies more
+and getting their heart
+rates up and so on?
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: I think
+we want to enable it.
+And I think it's good.
+But I think it comes more from a
+philosophical view of the world
+than it is necessarily--
+I mean, I don't go
+into building products
+to try to shape
+people's behavior.
+I believe in empowering
+people to do what they want
+and be the best version of
+themselves that they can be.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: So no agenda?
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: That said,
+I do believe that there's
+the previous
+generation of computers
+were devices for your mind.
+And I think that we are
+not brains and tanks.
+I think that there's a
+philosophical view of people
+of like, OK, you are
+primarily what you think about
+or your values or something.
+It's like, no, you
+are that and you
+are a physical manifestation.
+And people were very physical.
+And I think building a computer
+for your whole body and not
+just for your mind is very
+fitting with this worldview
+that the actual essence
+of you, if you want
+to be present with
+another person,
+if you want to be fully engaged
+in experience is not just--
+it's not just a video conference
+call that looks at your face
+and where you can share ideas.
+It's something that you
+can engage your whole body.
+So, yeah I mean, I
+think being physical
+is very important to me.
+I mean, that's a lot of the
+most fun stuff that I get to do.
+It's a really important
+part of how I personally
+balance my energy
+levels and just get
+a diversity of experiences
+because I could spend all
+my time running the company.
+But I think it's good for people
+to do some different things
+and compete in different areas
+or learn different things.
+And all of that is good.
+If people want to do really
+intense workouts with the work
+that we're doing with Quest
+or with eventual AR glasses,
+great.
+But even if you don't want to
+do a really intense workout,
+I think just having a computing
+environment and platform which
+is inherently physical captures
+more of the essence of what
+we are as people than any of
+the previous computing platforms
+that we've had to date.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I
+was even thinking just
+of the simple task of getting
+better range of motion a.k.a.
+flexibility.
+I could imagine, inside
+of the VR experience,
+leaning into a stretch, standard
+type of lunge-type stretch,
+but actually seeing a
+meter of are you are you
+approaching new
+levels of flexibility
+in that moment
+where it's actually
+measuring some
+kinesthetic elements
+on the body in the joints,
+whereas normally, you
+might have to do that in front
+of a camera, which then would
+give you the data on a screen
+that you'd look at afterwards
+or hire an expensive coach or
+looking at form and resistance
+training.
+So you're actually
+lifting physical weights.
+But it's telling you whether
+or not you're breaking form.
+I mean, there's just
+so much that could
+be done inside of there.
+And then my mind
+just starts to spiral
+into, wow, this is very
+likely to transform
+what we think of as,
+quote unquote, "exercise."
+MARK ZUCKERBERG:
+Yeah, I think so.
+I think there's still
+a bunch of questions
+that need to get answered.
+I don't think most people
+are going to necessarily want
+to install a lot of
+sensors or cameras
+to track their whole body.
+So we're just over
+time getting better
+from the sensors that are on
+the headsets of being able to do
+very good hand tracking.
+So we have this
+research demo where
+you now, just with the hand
+tracking from the headset,
+you can type.
+It just projects a little
+keyboard onto your table.
+And you can type.
+And people type like 100
+words a minute with that.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: With
+a virtual keyboard?
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah.
+We're starting to be able to--
+using some modern AI
+techniques, be able to simulate
+and understand where
+your torso's position is.
+Even though you
+can't always see it,
+you can see it a
+bunch of the time.
+And if you fuse
+together what you
+do see with the accelerometer
+and understanding
+how the thing is
+moving, you can kind of
+understand what the body
+position is going to be.
+But some things are
+still going to be hard.
+So you mentioned boxing.
+That one works pretty well
+because we understand your head
+position.
+We understand your hands.
+And now, we're increasingly
+understanding your body
+position.
+But let's say you
+want to expand that
+to Muay Thai or kickboxing.
+OK.
+So legs, that's a
+different part of tracking.
+That's harder because that's
+out of the field of view
+more of the time.
+But there's also the
+element of resistance.
+So you can throw a
+punch, and retract it,
+and shadow box and do
+that without upsetting
+your physical balance that much.
+But if you want to
+throw a roundhouse kick
+and there's no
+one there, then, I
+mean, the standard way that you
+do it when you're shadowboxing
+is you basically
+do a little 360.
+But I don't know.
+Is that going to feel great?
+I mean, I think there's
+a question about what
+that experience should be.
+And then if you want
+to go even further,
+if you want to get
+grappling to work,
+I'm not even sure
+how you would do
+that without having resistance
+of understanding what the force
+is applied to you would be.
+And then you get
+into, OK, maybe you're
+going to have some
+kind of bodysuit that
+can apply haptics.
+But I'm not even sure that even
+a pretty advanced haptic system
+is going to be able to be
+quite good enough to simulate
+the actual forces that would be
+applied to you in a grappling
+scenario.
+So this is part of what's
+fun about technology,
+though, is you keep on
+getting new capabilities.
+And then you need to
+figure out what things you
+can do with them.
+So I think it's really
+neat that we can do boxing.
+And we can do the
+supernatural thing.
+And there's a bunch
+of awesome cardio,
+and dancing and
+things like that.
+And then there's also
+still so much more
+to do that I'm excited
+to get to over time.
+But it's a long journey.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: And what
+about things like painting,
+and art and music?
+I imagine-- of course,
+different mediums--
+I like to draw with
+pen and pencil.
+But I could imagine trying to
+learn how to paint virtually.
+And of course, you could
+print out a physical version
+of that at the end.
+This doesn't have to depart
+from the physical world.
+It could end in
+the physical world.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Did
+you see the demo,
+the piano demo where you--
+either you're there
+with a physical keyboard
+or it could be a
+virtual keyboard.
+But the app basically
+highlights what keys
+you need to press in
+order to play the song.
+So it's basically like
+you're looking at your piano.
+And it's teaching you how to
+play a song that you choose.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+An actual piano?
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: But it's
+illuminating certain keys
+in the virtual space.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah.
+And it could either be a
+virtual piano or a keyboard
+if you don't have a
+piano or keyboard.
+Or it could use your
+actual keyboard.
+So yeah, I think
+stuff like that is
+going to be really fascinating
+for education and expression.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: And excuse
+me, but for broadening access
+to expensive equipment.
+I mean, a piano is
+no small expense.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Exactly.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: And it
+takes up a lot of space
+and needs to be tuned.
+You can think of all
+these things, the kid that
+has very little
+income or their family
+has very little
+income could learn
+to play a virtual piano
+at a much lower cost.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah.
+And it gets back
+to the question I
+was asking before about this
+thought experiment of how
+many of the things
+that we physically have
+today actually need
+to be physical.
+The piano doesn't.
+Maybe there's some
+premium where--
+maybe it's a somewhat better,
+more tactile experience
+to have a physical one.
+But for people who don't
+have the space for it,
+or who can't afford
+to buy a piano,
+or just aren't sure
+that they would want
+to make that investment at
+the beginning of learning how
+to play piano, I
+think, in the future,
+you'll have the option
+of just buying an app
+or a hologram piano which
+will be a lot more affordable.
+And I think that's going to
+unlock a ton of creativity too
+because instead of the
+market for piano makers
+being constrained to like a
+relatively small set of experts
+who have perfected
+that craft, you're
+going to have kids or developers
+all around the world designing
+crazy designs for potential
+keyboards and pianos
+that look nothing like
+what we've seen before,
+but maybe bring even
+more joy or even more
+fun into the world
+where you have fewer
+of these physical constraints.
+So I think there's going to be
+a lot of wild stuff to explore.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+There's definitely
+going to be a lot of
+wild stuff to explore.
+I just had this
+idea/image in my mind
+of what you were talking
+about merged with our earlier
+conversation when
+Priscilla was here.
+I could imagine a time
+not too long from now
+where you're using mixed reality
+to run experiments in the lab,
+literally mixing
+virtual solutions,
+getting potential outcomes,
+and then picking the best
+one to then go actually do
+in the real world, which
+is very both financially
+costly and time-wise costly.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah.
+I mean, people are already using
+VR for surgery and education
+on it.
+And there's some study that
+was done that basically tried
+to do a controlled experiment
+of people who learned how
+to do a specific surgery
+through just the normal textbook
+and lecture method
+versus you show the knee
+and you have it be a
+large, blown-up model.
+And people can manipulate
+it and practice
+where they would make the cuts.
+And like the people in
+that class did better.
+Yeah, I think that it's
+going to be profound
+for a lot of different areas.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: And the last
+example that leaps to mind--
+I think social media
+and online culture
+has been accused of creating
+a lot of real world--
+let's call it physical world
+social anxiety for people.
+But I could imagine practicing
+a social interaction.
+Or a kid that has a
+lot of social anxiety
+or that needs to advocate
+for themselves better
+learning how to do
+that progressively
+through a virtual
+interaction, and then taking
+that to the real world because,
+in my very recent experience
+today, it's so blended
+now with real experience
+that the kid that
+feels terrified
+of advocating for
+themselves, or just talking
+to another human
+being, or an adult,
+or being in a new circumstance
+of a room full of kids, you
+could really experience
+that in silico
+first and get comfortable,
+let the nervous system
+attenuate a bit, and then take
+it into the, quote unquote,
+"physical world."
+MARK ZUCKERBERG:
+Yeah, I think we'll
+see experiences like that.
+I mean, I also think that
+some of the social dynamics
+around how people
+interact in this kind
+of blended digital world will
+be more nuanced in other ways.
+So I'm sure that there will
+be new anxieties that people
+develop too, just like teens
+today need to navigate dynamics
+around texting
+constantly that we just
+didn't have when we were kids.
+So I think it will
+help with some things.
+I think that there will be new
+issues that hopefully we can
+help people work through too.
+But overall, yeah, I
+think it's going to be
+really powerful and positive.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Let's
+talk about the glasses.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Sure.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: This was wild.
+Put on a Ray-Bans--
+I like the way they look.
+They're clear.
+They look like any
+other Ray-Ban glasses,
+except that I could
+call out to the glasses.
+I could just say,
+hey Meta, I want
+to listen to the
+Bach variations--
+the Goldberg Variations of Bach.
+And Meta responded.
+And no one around me could hear.
+But I could hear with
+exquisite clarity.
+And by the way, I'm not getting
+paid to say any of this.
+I'm just still
+blown away by this.
+Folks, I want a
+these very badly.
+I could hear, OK, I'm
+selecting those now--
+or that music now.
+And then I could hear
+it in the background.
+But then I could still
+have a conversation.
+So this was neither headphones
+in nor headphones out.
+And I could say,
+wait, pause the music.
+And it would pause.
+And the best part was I
+didn't have to, quote unquote,
+"leave the room" mentally.
+I didn't even have
+to take out a phone.
+It was all interfaced through
+this very local environment
+in and around the head.
+And as a neuroscientist,
+I'm fascinated by this
+because, of course, all of
+our perceptions-- auditory,
+visual et cetera--
+are occurring inside the casing
+of this thing we call a skull.
+But maybe you could
+comment on the origin
+of that design for you,
+the ideas behind that,
+and where you think it
+could go because I'm sure
+I'm just scratching the surface.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG:
+The real product
+that we want to
+eventually get to is
+this full augmented
+reality product
+in a stylish and comfortable
+normal glasses form factor.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Not a dorky
+VR headset, so to speak?
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: No, I mean--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Because
+the VR headset does
+feel kind of big on the face.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: There's
+going to be a place for that,
+too, just like you
+have your laptop
+and you have your workstation.
+Or maybe the better analogy
+is you have your phone
+and you have your workstation.
+These AR glasses are going to
+be like your phone in that you
+have something on your face.
+And you will, I think,
+be able to, if you want,
+wear it for a lot of
+the day and interact
+with it very frequently.
+I don't think that
+people are going
+to be walking around the
+world wearing VR headsets.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Let's hope.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: But yeah,
+that's certainly not the future
+that I'm hoping we get to.
+But I do think that there
+is a place for having--
+because it's a
+bigger form factor,
+it has more compute power.
+So just like your workstation
+or your bigger computer
+can do more than
+your phone can do,
+there's a place for
+that when you want
+to settle into an intense task.
+If you have a doctor
+who's doing a surgery,
+I would want them doing
+it through the headset
+not through the phone equivalent
+or the lower powered glasses.
+But just like phones
+are powerful enough
+to do a lot of things, I think
+the glasses will eventually
+get there, too.
+Now, that said, there's a
+bunch of really hard technology
+problems to address in order
+to be able to get to this point
+where you can put full
+holograms in the world.
+You're basically
+miniaturizing a supercomputer
+and putting it into a glasses
+so that the glasses still
+look stylish and normal.
+And that's a really
+hard technology problem.
+Making things small
+is really hard.
+A holographic display
+is different from what
+our industry has optimized
+for for 30 or 40 years now,
+building screens.
+There's a whole
+industrial process
+around that goes into phones,
+and TVs, and computers,
+and increasingly so many things
+that have different screens.
+There's a whole pipeline
+that's gotten very good
+at making that kind of screen.
+And the holographic
+displays are just
+a completely different thing
+because it's not a screen.
+It's a thing that
+you can shoot light
+into through a laser or some
+other kind of projector.
+And it can place that as
+an object in the world.
+So that's going to need to be
+this whole other industrial
+process that gets built up to
+doing that in an efficient way.
+So all that said,
+we're basically
+taking two different approaches
+towards building this at once.
+One is we are trying to keep
+in mind what is the long-term
+thing that--
+it's not super far off.
+Within a few years,
+I think we'll
+have something that's a first
+version of this full vision
+that I'm talking about.
+I mean, we have something
+that's working internally
+that we use as a dev kit.
+But that one, that's
+a big challenge.
+It's going to be more expensive.
+And it's harder to get
+all the pieces working.
+The other approach has
+been, all right, let's
+start with what
+we know we can put
+into a pair of
+stylish sunglasses
+today and just make
+them as smart as we can.
+So for the first
+version, we worked with--
+we did this collaboration
+with Ray-Ban
+because that's well-accepted.
+These are well-designed glasses.
+They're classic.
+People have used
+them for decades.
+For the first version, we
+got a sensor on the front,
+so you could capture moments
+without having to take
+your phone out of your pocket.
+So you got photos and videos.
+You had the speaker
+and the microphone,
+so you can listen to music.
+You could communicate with it.
+But that was the
+first version of it.
+We had a lot of
+the basics there.
+But we saw how people used it.
+And we tuned it.
+We made the camera twice as
+good for this new version
+that we made.
+The audio is a lot
+crisper for the use cases
+that we saw that people actually
+used, which is-- some of it
+is listening to music.
+But a lot of it is people want
+to take calls on their glasses.
+They want to listen to podcasts.
+But the biggest thing that
+I think is interesting
+is the ability to get AI running
+on it, which it doesn't just
+run on the glasses.
+It also kind of proxies
+through your phone.
+But I mean, with all
+the advances in LLMs--
+we talked about this a
+bit in the first part
+of the conversation.
+Having the ability to have
+your Meta AI assistant
+that you can just
+talk to and basically
+ask any question
+throughout the day is--
+I think it'd be
+really fascinating.
+And like you were
+saying about how
+we process the world as
+people, eventually, I
+think you're going
+to want your AI
+assistant to be able to see what
+you see and hear what you hear.
+Maybe not all the time.
+But you're going to
+want to be able to tell
+it to go into a mode where it
+can see what you see and hear
+what you hear.
+And what's the
+device design that
+best positions an
+AI assistant to be
+able to see what
+you see and hear
+what you hear so it
+can best help you?
+Well, that's glasses,
+where it basically
+has a sensor to be able
+to see what you see
+and a microphone that is
+close to your ears that
+can hear what you hear.
+The other design goal
+is, like you said,
+to keep you present
+in the world.
+So I think one of the
+issues with phones
+is they pull you away from
+what's physically happening
+around you.
+And I don't think that the
+next generation of computing
+will do that.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'm
+chuckling to myself
+because I have a friend.
+He's a very well
+known photographer.
+And he was laughing about
+how people go to a concert.
+And everyone's filming
+the concert on their phone
+so that they can be the
+person that posts the thing.
+But there are literally
+millions of other people
+who posted the exact same thing.
+But somehow, it feels important
+to post our unique experience.
+With glasses, that
+would essentially
+smooth that gap completely.
+You could just worry about
+it later, download it then.
+There are issues, I
+realize, with glasses
+because they are so seamless
+with everyday experience,
+even though you and I
+aren't wearing them now.
+It's very common for
+people to wear glasses--
+issues of recording and consent.
+[INTERPOSING VOICES]
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Like if I go
+to a locker room at my gym,
+I'm assuming that the people
+with glasses aren't filming.
+Whereas right now, because
+there's a sharp transition when
+there's a phone in the room
+and someone's pointing it,
+people generally say, no phones
+in locker rooms and recording.
+So that's just one instance.
+I mean, there are
+other instances.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: We have
+the whole privacy light.
+Did you get--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I didn't
+get a chance to explore that.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah.
+So anytime that it's
+active, that the camera
+sensor is active, it's basically
+pulsing a white bright light.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Got it.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Which is, by
+the way, more than cameras do.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Right.
+Someone could be
+holding a phone.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah.
+I mean, phones aren't showing
+a light, bright sensor
+when you're taking a photo.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+People oftentimes
+will pretend they're texting
+and they're actually recording.
+I actually saw an instance
+of this in a barber shop
+once, where someone
+was recording
+and they were pretending
+that they were texting.
+And it was interesting.
+There was a pretty intense
+interaction that ensued.
+And it was like, wow, it's
+pretty easy for people
+to feign texting while
+actually recording.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah.
+So I think when
+you're evaluating
+a risk with a new technology,
+the bar shouldn't be is it
+possible to do anything bad.
+It's does this new
+technology make it easier
+to do something bad than
+what people already had.
+And I think because you have
+this privacy light that is just
+broadcasting to everyone
+around you, hey,
+this thing is recording now--
+I think that makes it
+actually less discreet
+to do it through the
+glasses than what you could
+do with a phone already, which
+I think is basically the bar
+that we wanted to get over
+from a design perspective.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Thank
+you for pointing out
+that it has the privacy light.
+I didn't get long
+enough in the experience
+to explore all the features.
+But again, I can think
+of a lot of uses--
+being able to look at a
+restaurant from the outside
+and see the menu, get a
+status on how crowded it is.
+As much as I love--
+I don't want to call
+out-- let's just
+say app-based map functions
+that allow you to navigate
+and the audio is OK.
+It's nice to have a conversation
+with somebody on the phone
+or in the vehicle.
+And it'd be great if the road
+was traced where I should turn.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG:
+Yeah, absolutely.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+These kinds of things
+seem like it's going to be
+straightforward for Meta
+engineers to create.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah, in
+a version, we'll have it
+so it'll also have the
+holographic display, where
+it can show you the directions.
+But I think that there
+will basically just
+be different price points
+that pack different amounts
+of technology.
+The holographic
+display part, I think,
+is going to be more
+expensive than doing
+one that just has the AI, but
+is primarily communicating
+with you through audio.
+So I mean, the current
+Ray-Ban Meta glasses are $299.
+I think when we have one
+that has a display in it,
+it'll probably be some
+amount more than that.
+But it'll also be more powerful.
+So I think that
+people will choose
+what they want to use based
+on what the capabilities are
+that they want and
+what they can afford.
+But a lot of our goal
+in building things
+is we try to make things that
+can be accessible to everyone.
+Our game as a company isn't to
+build things and then charge
+a premium price for it.
+We try to build things that
+then everyone can use, and then
+become more useful because a
+very large number of people
+are using them.
+So it's just a very
+different approach.
+We're not like Apple or some
+of these companies that just
+try to make something and
+then sell it for as much
+as they can, which, I mean,
+they're a great company.
+So I mean, I think that
+model is fine, too.
+But our approach
+is going to be we
+want stuff that
+can be affordable
+so that way everyone in
+the world can use it.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Long lines of health,
+I think the glasses will
+also potentially solve
+a major problem in
+a real way, which
+is the following for
+both children and adults.
+It's very clear that viewing
+objects in particular screens
+up close for too many hours
+per day leads to myopia.
+It literally changes the
+length of length of the eyeball
+and nearsightedness.
+And on the positive
+side, we know,
+based on some really
+large clinical trials,
+that kids who spend--
+and adults who spend two hours
+a day or more out of doors
+don't experience that and maybe
+even reverse their myopia.
+And it has something to do
+with exposure to sunlight.
+But it has a lot to do
+with long view, viewing
+things at a distance greater
+than three or four feet away.
+And with the glasses,
+I realize, one
+could actually do digital
+work out of doors.
+It could measure and
+tell you how much time
+you've spent looking at things
+up close versus far away.
+I mean, this is just another
+example that leaps to mind.
+But in accessing
+the visual system,
+you're effectively
+accessing the whole brain
+because it's the only
+two bits of brain that
+are outside the cranial
+vault. So it just
+seems like putting technology
+right at the level of the eyes,
+seeing what the
+eyes see, has just
+got to be the best way to go.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah.
+Well, multimodal, I think, is--
+you want the visual sensation.
+But you also want
+text or language.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Sure.
+That all can be brought to
+the level of the eyes, right?
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: What
+do you mean by that?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Well, I mean, I think
+what we're describing
+here is essentially
+taking the phone, the
+computer, and bringing it
+all to the level of the eyes.
+And of course, one would like--
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Oh,
+Physically at your eyes?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Physically
+at your eyes, right?
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: And one
+would like more kinesthetic
+information, as you mentioned
+before-- where the legs are,
+maybe even lung function.
+Hey, have you taken
+enough steps today?
+But that all can be-- if it can
+be figured out on the phone,
+it can be-- by the phone, it can
+be figured out by the glasses.
+But there's additional
+information there,
+such as what are you
+focusing on in your world.
+How much of your time is spent
+looking at things far away
+versus up close?
+How much social time
+did you have today?
+It's really tricky to
+get that with a phone.
+If my phone were
+right in front of us
+as if we were at
+a standard lunch
+nowadays, certainly
+in Silicon Valley,
+and then we're peering
+at our phones, I mean,
+how much real direct attention
+and was in the conversation
+at hand versus something else?
+You can get issues
+of where are you
+placing your attention
+by virtue of where
+you're placing your eyes.
+And I think that information
+is not accessible
+with a phone in your
+pocket or in front of you.
+Yeah, I mean, a little bit, but
+not nearly as rich and complete
+information as one
+gets when you're really
+pulling the data from
+the level of vision
+and what kids and
+adults are actually
+looking at and attending to.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah, yeah.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: It
+seems extremely valuable.
+You get autonomic information,
+size of the pupils.
+So you get information
+about internal states.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: I mean, there's
+internal sensor and outside.
+So the sensor on the Ray-Ban
+Meta glasses is external.
+So it basically allows
+you to see what you see--
+sorry, the AI system to
+see what you're seeing.
+There's a separate
+set of things which
+are eye tracking, which are
+also very powerful for enabling
+a lot of interfaces.
+So if you want to
+just look at something
+and select it by looking
+at it with your eyes
+rather than having to drag
+a controller over or pick up
+a hologram or
+anything like that,
+you can do that
+with eye tracking.
+So that's a pretty profound and
+cool experience, too, as well
+as just understanding
+what you're
+looking at so that way you're
+not wasting compute power
+drawing pixels and
+high resolution
+in a part of the world
+that's going to be
+in your peripheral vision.
+So yeah, all of
+these things, there
+are interesting design
+and technology trade-offs,
+where if you want the external
+sensor, that's one thing.
+If you also want
+the eye tracking,
+now that's a different
+set of sensors.
+Each one of these
+consumes compute,
+which consumes battery.
+They take up more space.
+So it's like, where are the eye
+tracking sensors going to be?
+It's like, well, you
+want to make sure
+that the rim of the glasses is
+actually quite thin because--
+I mean, there's a variance
+of how thick can glasses
+be before they look more
+like goggles than glasses.
+So I think that there's
+this whole space.
+And I think people are going
+to end up choosing what
+product makes sense for them.
+Maybe they want something
+that's more powerful,
+that has more of the
+sensors, but it's
+going to be a little
+more expensive,
+maybe like slightly thicker.
+Or maybe you want
+a more basic thing
+that just looks very similar
+to what Ray-Ban glasses are
+that people have been wearing
+for decades but has AI in it
+and you can capture
+moments without having
+to take your phone out
+and send them to people.
+In the latest version, we got
+the ability in to live stream.
+I think that that's pretty
+crazy, that now you can be--
+going back to your concert case
+or whatever else you're doing,
+you can be doing
+sports or watching
+your kids play something.
+And you can be watching.
+And you can be live streaming
+it to your family group,
+so people can see it.
+I think that stuff is--
+I think that's pretty
+cool, that you basically
+have a normal looking glasses at
+this point that can live stream
+and has an AI assistant.
+So the stuff is making
+a lot faster progress
+in a lot of ways than
+I would have thought.
+And I don't know.
+I think people are going
+to like this version.
+But there's a lot
+more still to do.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I think
+it's super exciting.
+And I see a lot of technologies.
+This one's particularly
+exciting to me
+because of how smooth
+the interface is
+and for all the reasons
+that you just mentioned.
+What's happening with and
+what can we expect around
+AI interfaces and
+maybe even avatars
+of people within social media?
+Are we not far off
+from a day where
+there are multiple
+versions of me
+and you on the
+internet or people?
+For instance, I get
+asked a lot of questions.
+I don't have the opportunity to
+respond to all those questions.
+But with things
+like ChatGPT, people
+are trying to generate
+answers to those questions
+on other platforms.
+Will I have the
+opportunity to soon
+have an AI version of
+myself where people
+can ask me questions about
+what I recommend for sleep
+and circadian rhythm, fitness,
+mental health, et cetera based
+on content I've
+already generated
+that will be accurate so they
+could just ask my avatar?
+MARK ZUCKERBERG: Yeah,
+this is something
+that I think a lot
+of creators are going
+to want that we're
+trying to build
+and I think we'll probably
+have a version of next year.
+But there's a bunch
+of constraints
+that I think we need to
+make sure that we get right.
+So for one, I think it's
+really important that--
+it's not that there's a
+bunch of versions of you.
+It's that if anyone is creating
+an AI assistant version of you,
+it should be something
+that you control.
+I think there are some platforms
+that are out there today
+that just let people like make--
+I don't know-- an AI bought
+of me or other figures.
+And it's like, I don't know.
+I mean, we have
+platform policies for--
+and for decades,
+since the beginning
+of the company at this point,
+which is almost 20 years,
+that basically don't
+allow impersonation.
+Real identity is like
+one of the core aspects
+that our company was started on.
+You want to authentically
+be yourself.
+So yeah, I think if
+you're almost any creator,
+being able to engage
+your community--
+and there's just going
+to be more demand
+to interact with you than
+you have hours in the day.
+So there are both
+people who out there
+who would benefit from
+being able to talk
+to an AI version of you.
+And I think you,
+and other creators,
+would benefit from being able
+to keep your community engaged
+and service that demand that
+people have to engage with you.
+But you're going to want to
+know that that AI version of you
+or assistant is going
+to represent you
+the way that you would want.
+And there are a
+lot of things that
+are awesome about
+these modern LLMs.
+But having perfect
+predictability
+about how it's going
+to represent something
+is not one of the
+current strengths.
+So I think that
+there's some work that
+needs to get done there.
+I don't think it needs to be
+100% perfect all the time.
+But you need to have very
+good confidence, I would say,
+that it's going to represent
+you the way that you'd
+want for you to
+want to turn it on,
+which, again, you
+should have control over
+whether you turn it on.
+So we wanted to start in
+a different place, which
+I think is a somewhat easier
+problem, which is creating
+new characters for AI personas.
+So that way, it's not--
+we built one of the
+AIs is like a chef.
+And they can help you
+come up with things
+that you could cook and
+can help you cook them.
+There's a couple
+of people that are
+interested in different
+types of fitness that
+can help you plan
+out your workouts
+or help with recovery or
+different things like that.
+There's an AI that's
+focused on DIY crafts.
+There's somebody who's
+a travel expert that
+can help you make travel
+plans or give you ideas.
+But the key thing
+about all of these
+is they're not modeled
+off of existing people.
+So they don't have to have
+100% fidelity to making sure
+that they never say something
+that a real person who they're
+modeled after would never say
+because they're just made up
+characters.
+So I think that that's a
+somewhat easier problem.
+And we actually got a bunch
+of different well-known people
+to play those characters
+because we thought
+that would make it more fun.
+So there's like Snoop Dogg
+is the dungeon master.
+So you can drop
+him into a thread
+and play text-based games.
+And I do this with my daughter
+when I tuck her in at night.
+And she just loves storytelling.
+And it's like Snoop Dogg,
+as the dungeon master,
+will come up with here's
+what's happening next.
+And she's like, OK, I
+turn into a mermaid.
+And then I like
+swim across the bay.
+And I go and find the
+treasure chest and unlock it.
+And it's like, and then
+Snoop Dogg just always
+will have a next
+version of the--
+a next iteration on the story.
+So I mean, it's
+stuff that's fun.
+But it's not
+actually Snoop Dogg.
+He's just the actor who's
+playing the dungeon master,
+which makes it more fun.
+So I think that's probably
+the right place to start,
+is you can build versions
+of these characters
+that people can interact
+with doing different things.
+But I think where
+you want to get over
+time is to the place where any
+creator or any small business
+can very easily just create an
+AI assistant that can represent
+them and interact with your
+community or customers,
+if you're a business,
+and basically just help
+you grow your enterprise.
+So I think that's
+going to be cool.
+It's a long-term project.
+I think we'll have more progress
+on it to report on next year.
+But I think that's coming.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'm
+super excited about it
+because we hear a lot
+about the downsides of AI.
+I mean, I think people are now
+coming around to the reality
+that AI is neither good nor bad.
+It can be used for good or bad.
+And there are a lot of
+life-enhancing spaces
+that it's going to show
+up and really, really
+improve the way that we engage
+socially, what we learn,
+and that mental health
+and physical health
+don't have to
+suffer and, in fact,
+can be enhanced by the
+sorts of technologies
+we've been talking about.
+So I know you're extremely busy.
+I so appreciate the
+large amount of time
+you've given me today to sort
+through all these things.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG:
+Yeah, it's been fun.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: And to
+talk with you and Priscilla
+and to hear what's happening
+and where things are headed,
+the future certainly is bright.
+I share in your optimism.
+And it's been only strengthened
+by today's conversation.
+So thank you so much.
+And keep doing
+what you're doing.
+And on behalf of myself
+and everyone listening,
+thank you because, regardless
+of what people say,
+we all use these
+platforms excitedly.
+And it's clear that
+there's a ton of intention,
+and care, and thought about what
+could be in the positive sense.
+And that's really
+worth highlighting.
+MARK ZUCKERBERG:
+Awesome, thank you.
+I appreciate it.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Thank
+you for joining me
+for today's discussion with Mark
+Zuckerberg and Dr. Priscilla
+Chan.
+If you're learning from
+and/or enjoying this podcast,
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\ No newline at end of file