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+welcome to the huberman Lab podcast
+where we discuss science and
+science-based tools for everyday life
+I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a professor
+of neurobiology and Ophthalmology at
+Stanford school of medicine today my
+guest is Dr Matthew McDougall Dr Matthew
+McDougall is the head neurosurgeon at
+neurolink neurolink is a company whose
+goal is to develop Technologies to
+overcome specific clinical challenges of
+the brain and nervous system as well as
+to improve upon brain design that is to
+improve the way that brains currently
+function by augmenting memory by
+augmenting cognition and by improving
+communication between humans and between
+machines and humans these are all of
+course tremendous goals and neurolink is
+uniquely poised to accomplish these
+goals because they are approaching these
+challenges by combining both existing
+knowledge of brain function from the
+fields of Neuroscience and neurosurgery
+with robotics machine learning computer
+science and the development of Novel
+devices in order to change the ways that
+human brains work for the better today's
+conversation with Dr Matthew McDougall
+is a truly special one because I and
+many others in science and medicine
+consider neurosurgeons the astronauts of
+Neuroscience in the brain that is they
+go where others have simply not gone
+before and are in a position to discover
+incredibly novel things about how the
+human brain works because they are
+literally in there probing and cutting
+stimulating Etc and able to monitor how
+people's cognition and behavior and
+speech changes as the brain itself has
+changed structurally and functionally
+today's discussion with Dr McDougall
+will teach you how the brain works
+through the lens of a neurosurgeon it
+will also teach you about neuralink
+specific perspective about which
+challenges of brain function and disease
+are immediately tractable which ones
+they are working on now that is as well
+as where they see the future of
+augmenting brain function for sake of
+treating disease and for simply making
+brains work better
+today's discussion also gets into the
+realm of devising the peripheral nervous
+system in fact one thing that you'll
+learn is that Dr McDougall has a radio
+receiver implanted in the periphery of
+his own body he did this not to overcome
+any specific clinical challenge but to
+overcome a number of daily everyday life
+challenges and in some ways to
+demonstrate the powerful utility of
+combining novel machines novel devices
+with what we call our nervous system and
+different objects and Technologies
+within the world I know that might sound
+a little bit mysterious but you'll soon
+learn exactly what I'm referring to and
+by the way he also implanted his family
+members with similar devices so while
+all of this might sound a little bit
+like science fiction this is truly
+science reality these experiments both
+the implantation of specific devices and
+the attempt to overcome specific
+movement disorders such as Parkinson's
+and other disorders of deep brain
+function as well as to augment the human
+brain and make it work far better than
+it ever has in the the course of human
+evolution are experiments and things
+that are happening now at neuralink Dr
+McDougall also generously takes us under
+the hood so to speak of what's happening
+at neurolink explaining exactly the
+sorts of experiments that they are doing
+and have planned how they are
+approaching those experiments we get
+into an extensive conversation about the
+utility of animal versus human research
+in probing brain function and in
+devising and improving the human brain
+and in overcoming disease in terms of
+neurosurgery and neural links goals by
+the end of today's episode you will have
+a much clearer understanding of how
+human brains work and how they can be
+improved by Robotics and engineering and
+you'll have a very clear picture of what
+neural link is doing toward these goals
+Dr McDougall did his medical training at
+the University of California San Diego
+and at Stanford University School of
+Medicine and of course is now at
+neurolink so he is in a unique stance to
+teach us about human brain function and
+dysfunction and to explain to us what
+the past present and future of brain
+augmentation is really all about before
+we begin I'd like to emphasize that this
+podcast is separate from my teaching and
+research roles at Stanford it is however
+part of my desire and effort to bring
+zero cost to Consumer information about
+science and science related tools to the
+general public in keeping with that
+theme I'd like to thank the sponsors of
+today's podcast our first sponsor is
+hvmn Ketone IQ hvmn Ketone IQ increases
+blood ketones I want to be very clear
+that I like most people have heard of
+the ketogenic diet but I like most
+people do not follow a ketogenic diet
+that is I'm not in ketosis however most
+people don't realize that you can still
+benefit from increasing your blood
+ketones which is what hvmn Ketone IQ
+does I take Ketone IQ prior to doing
+really focused cognitive work so I take
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+if you'd like to try Ketone IQ you can
+go to hvmn.com huberman to save 20 off
+your order again that's hbmn.com
+huberman to save 20 today's episode is
+also brought To Us by levels levels is a
+program that lets you see how different
+foods and activities affect your health
+by giving you real-time feedback on your
+diet using a continuous glucose monitor
+nowadays there's a lot of excitement
+about continuous glucose monitors and
+levels allows you to assess how what you
+eat and what combinations of foods you
+eat and exercise and sleep and things
+like alcohol should you indulge in
+alcohol and things of that sort how
+those impact your blood glucose now it's
+very important that the cells of your
+body and in particular the cells of your
+nervous system not experience levels of
+blood glucose that are too high or too
+low so-called hyperglycemia or
+hypoglycemia what levels allows its
+users to do is to understand how their
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+levels I like most people who use levels
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+yourself you can go to levels.link
+huberman right now levels is offering an
+additional two free months of membership
+again that's levels.link l-i-n-k
+huberman to get two free months of
+membership today's episode is also
+brought To Us by thesis thesis makes
+custom nootropics and as many of you
+have perhaps heard me say before I am
+not a fan of the word nootropics because
+it literally means smart drugs and the
+brain has neural circuits for focus it
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+takethesis.com huberman and use the code
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+first box and now for my discussion with
+Dr Matthew McDougall Dr McDougall
+welcome good to be here nice to see
+Andrew great to see you again uh we'll
+get into our history a little bit later
+but just to kick things off
+as a neurosurgeon and as a
+neuroscientist can you share with us
+your vision of the brain as an organ as
+it relates to what's possible there I
+mean I think most everyone understands
+that the brain is along with the body
+the seat of our cognition feelings our
+ability to move Etc and the Damage there
+can limit our ability to feel the way we
+want to feel or move the way we want to
+move but
+surgeons tend to view the world a little
+bit differently than most because as the
+not so funny joke goes you know they
+like to cut and they like to fix and
+they like to mend and they in your case
+have the potential to add things into
+the brain that don't exist there already
+so how do you think about and
+conceptualize the brain as an organ and
+what do you think is really possible
+with the brain that most of us don't
+already probably think about yeah that's
+a great question
+thinking about the brain as this three
+pound lump of meat trapped in a prison
+of the skull
+it seems almost magical that it could
+create a you know human a human set of
+behaviors and a life
+merely from electrical impulses when you
+start to see patients and see say a
+small tumor eating away at a little part
+of the brain and see a very discrete
+function of that brain go down in
+isolation you start to realize that the
+brain really is a collection of
+functional modules pinned together duct
+taped together
+um in this in this bone box attached to
+your head
+um and sometimes you see very
+interesting failure modes so one of the
+most
+memorable patience I ever had was very
+early on in my training I was down at UC
+San Diego and saw a very young guy who
+had just been in a car accident we had
+operated on him and you know as is so
+often the case in neurosurgery we had
+saved his life
+potentially at the cost of quality of
+life
+when he woke from surgery with bilateral
+frontal lobe damage he had essentially
+no
+impulse control left and so
+you know we rounded on him after surgery
+saw that he was doing okay to our you
+know first guess at his uh health and we
+continued on to see our other patients
+and we were called back by his you know
+80 year old recovery room nurse saying
+you've got to come see your patient
+right away something's wrong and we walk
+in to see him and he points at his
+elderly nurse and says she won't have
+sex with me
+and you know it was Apparent at that
+moment his frontal lobes were gone and
+that person is never going to have
+reasonable human behavior again
+um
+and uh that's you know it's one of the
+most tragic ways to have a brain
+malfunction but uh you know anything a
+brain does anything from control of
+hormone levels in your body to Vision to
+sensation to you know the most obvious
+thing which is muscle movement of any
+kind from eye movement to moving your
+bicep all that comes out of the brain
+all of it can go wrong any of it any
+part of it or all of it
+um
+so yeah working with the brain is the
+substance of the brain as a surgeon very
+high stakes but you know once in a while
+you get a chance to really help you get
+a chance to fix something that seems
+unfixable and you have you know
+lazarus-like Miracles not not too
+uncommonly so it's extremely satisfying
+as a career
+could you share with us one of the more
+satisfying experiences or perhaps the
+top Contour of what um qualifies as
+satisfying in in neurosurgery yeah
+um you know one of the relatively newer
+techniques that we do is you know if
+someone comes in with a reasonably small
+tumor somewhere deep in the brain that's
+hard to get to the traditional approach
+to taking that out would involve cutting
+through a lot of good normal brain and
+disrupting a lot of neurons a lot of
+white matter that you know kind of the
+wires connecting neurons
+um then the modern approach involves a
+two millimeter drill hole in the skull
+down which you can pass a little fiber
+optic uh cannula and and uh attach it to
+a laser and just heat the tumor up deep
+inside the brain under direct MRI
+visualization in real time so your this
+person is in the MRI scanner you're
+taking pictures every second or so as
+the tumor heats up you can monitor the
+temperature and get it exactly where you
+want it where it's going to kill all
+those tumor cells but not hurt hardly
+any of the brains surrounding it and so
+not uncommonly nowadays we have someone
+come in with a tumor that previously
+would have been catastrophic to operate
+on and we can eliminate that tumor with
+you know leaving a poke hole in their
+skin
+with almost no visual After Effects so
+that procedure that you just described
+translates into better clinical outcomes
+meaning fewer let's call them side
+effects or collateral damage exactly
+right yeah we don't you know even in
+cases that previously would have
+considered totally inoperable say a
+tumor in the brain stem or a tumor in
+primary motor cortex or primary verbal
+areas Brokers area
+uh where we would have expected to
+either not operate or do catastrophic
+damage those people sometimes now are
+coming out unscathed
+I'm very curious about the sorts of
+basic information about brain function
+that can be gleaned from these clinical
+approaches of lesions and
+um strokes and um maybe even stimulation
+so for instance in your example of this
+patient that had bilateral frontal
+damage
+what do you think his lack of Regulation
+reveals about the normal functioning of
+the frontal lobes because I think the
+obvious answer to most people is going
+to be well the frontal lobes are
+normally
+um
+limiting impulsivity right but as we
+both know because the brain has
+excitatory and inhibitory neurons to
+sort of accelerators and breaks on
+communication right that isn't
+necessarily the straightforward answer
+um it could be for instance that the
+frontal lobes are acting as conductors
+right and are kind of
+um important but not the immediate
+players in determining impulsivity so
+um two questions really what do you
+think the frontal lobes are doing
+because I'm very intrigued by this uh
+human expanded real estate we have a lot
+of it compared to other animals and more
+generally what do you think damage of a
+given neural tissue
+means in terms of understanding the
+basic function of that tissue yeah it
+varies I think from tissue to tissue but
+with respect to the frontal lobes I
+think they act as sort of a filter they
+selectively are saying
+backward to the rest of the brain behind
+them
+when part of your brain says that looks
+very attractive I want to go grab it and
+take it you know out of the jewelry
+display case or you know whatever
+the frontal lobes are saying
+you can if you go pay for it first right
+they're filtering the behavior they're
+they're letting the impulse through
+maybe uh but in a controlled way
+um this is very high level very broad uh
+thinking about how the frontal lobes
+work and that
+that patient I mentioned earlier is a
+great example of when they go wrong you
+know he had this impulse sort of strange
+impulse to be attracted to his nurse
+that normally it would be easy for our
+frontal lobes to say this is completely
+inappropriate wrong setting wrong person
+wrong time
+uh
+in his case he had nothing there and so
+even the slightest inclination to uh to
+want something came right out to the
+surface so
+um yeah a filter calming the rest of the
+brain down from acting on every possible
+impulse when I was a graduate student I
+was um running what are called you know
+these uh what these are but just to
+inform you what are called acutes which
+are
+um neurophysiological experiments that
+last several days because at the end you
+uh you terminate the animal this isn't
+uh my apologies to those that um are
+made uncomfortable by animal research I
+now work on humans so a different type
+of animal but at the time we were
+running these acutes that would start
+one day and maybe end two or three days
+later and so you get a lot of data the
+animals anesthetized and doesn't feel
+any pain the entire time of the surgery
+but the um one consequence of these
+experiments is that the experimenter me
+and another individual are awake for
+several days with an hour of sleep here
+an hour of sleep there but you're
+basically awake for two three days
+something that really I could only do in
+my teens and 20s I was in my 20s at the
+time and I recall
+um going to eat at a diner after one of
+these experiments and I was very hungry
+and the waitress walking by with a tray
+full of food for another table
+and it took every bit of self-control to
+not get up and take the food off the
+tray something that of course is totally
+inappropriate and I would never do and
+it must have been based on what you just
+said that my forebrain was essentially
+going offline or offline from the sleep
+deprivation right because there was a
+moment there where I thought I might
+reach up and grab a plate of food
+passing by simply because I wanted it
+right and um I didn't
+um but I can relate to the experience of
+feeling like the shh response is a
+flickering in and out under conditions
+of sleep deprivation so do we know
+whether or not sleep deprivation limits
+for brain activity in a similar kind of
+way you know I I don't know specifically
+if that effect is more pronounced in the
+forebrain as opposed to other brain
+regions but it's clear that sleep
+deprivation has broad effects all over
+the brain people start to see visual
+hallucinations so the opposite end of
+the brain as you know the visual cortex
+in the far back
+the brain is affected people People's
+Court motor coordination goes down after
+sleep deprivation so
+um I think you know if I if you force me
+to give a definitive answer on that
+question I'd have to guess that the
+entire brain is affected by sleep
+deprivation and it's not clear that one
+part of the brain is more effective than
+another
+so we've been talking about damage to
+the brain and inferring function from
+damage uh maybe we could talk a little
+bit about what I consider really the
+Holy Grail of the nervous system which
+is neuroplasticity this incredible
+capacity of the nervous system to change
+its wiring strengthen connections weaken
+connections maybe new neurons but
+probably more strengthening and
+weakening of connections right nowadays
+we hear a lot of excitement about
+so-called classical psychedelics like
+LSD and psilocybin which do seem to
+quote unquote open plasticity they do a
+bunch of other things too but
+um through the release of
+neuromodulators like serotonin and so
+forth
+how do you think about neuroplasticity
+and more specifically
+what do you think the potential for
+neuroplasticity is in the adult so let's
+say older than 25 year old brain
+with or without
+machines being involved because
+um in your role at neurolink and as a
+neurosurgeon in other clinical settings
+surely you are using machines and surely
+you've seen plasticity in the positive
+and negative direction right
+what do you think about plasticity
+what's possible there without machines
+what's possible with machines so as you
+mentioned or alluded to the plasticity
+definitely goes down in older brains
+uh it it is harder for older people to
+learn new things to make radical changes
+in their behavior uh to you know kick
+habits that they've had for years
+um
+machines aren't the obvious answer so
+implanted electrodes and computers
+aren't the obvious answer to increased
+plasticity necessarily compared to
+drugs we already know that there are
+pharmacologics some of the ones you
+mentioned psychedelics that have a broad
+impact on plasticity yeah it's hard to
+know which area of the brain would be
+most potent as a stimulation Target for
+an electrode to broadly juice plasticity
+compared to uh you know pharmacologic
+agents that we already know about
+I think with plasticity you're talking
+in general you're talking about the
+entire brain you're talking about
+altering you know a trillion synapses
+all in a similar way in their tendency
+to be rewireable to their tendency to be
+up or down weighted and
+an electrical stimulation Target in the
+brain necessarily has to be focused you
+know with a device like potentially
+neural links there might be a more broad
+ability to steer current to multiple
+targets with some degree of control but
+you're never going to get that broad
+um Target ability with uh
+any electrodes that I can see coming in
+our lifetimes so say that would be
+coding the entire surface and depth of
+the brain the way that a drug can and so
+I think plasticity research will bear
+the most fruit when it focuses on
+pharmacologic agents I wasn't expecting
+that answer given that you're at neural
+link and um and then again I think that
+all of us me included need to take a
+step back and realize that while we may
+think we know what is going on at
+neurolink in terms of the specific goals
+and the general goals and I certainly
+have in mind I think most people have in
+mind a chip implanted in the brain or
+maybe even the peripheral nervous system
+that can
+give people super memories or some other
+augmented capacity we really don't know
+what you all are doing there and for all
+we know um you guys are taking or
+administering psilocybin and combining
+that with stimulation I mean we really
+don't know and I say this
+um with a with a tone of excitement
+because
+um I think that one of the things that's
+so exciting about the different
+Endeavors that Elon has really
+spearheaded
+um SpaceX Tesla Etc is that early on
+there's there's a lot of Mystique right
+you know Mystique is a quality that
+um is not often talked about but
+um it's I think a very exciting time in
+which
+Engineers are starting to toss up big
+problems and go for it and obviously
+Elon is
+certainly among the best if not the best
+in terms of going really big I mean Mars
+seems pretty far to me right electric
+cars are all over the road nowadays are
+very different than the picture a few
+years ago right when you didn't see so
+many of them
+rockets and so forth and now the brain
+so
+to the extent that you are allowed could
+you share with us what your vision for
+the missions at neurolink are and what
+the general scope of missions are and
+then
+um if possible uh share with us some of
+the more specific goals I can imagine
+basic goals of trying to understand the
+brain and augment the brain I could
+imagine clinical goals of trying to
+repair things in humans that are
+suffering in some way or animals for
+that matter yeah it's it's funny what
+you mentioned uh
+neuralink and I think Tesla and SpaceX
+before it end up being these blank
+canvases that people project their hopes
+and fears onto and so we we experience a
+lot of upside in this people you know
+assume that we have superpowers in our
+ability to alter the way brains work and
+people have terrifying fears of the
+horrible things we're going to do
+uh for the most part those extremes are
+not true uh you know we are making a
+neural implant we have a robotic
+insertion device that helps Place tiny
+electrodes the size uh smaller than the
+size of a human hair all throughout a
+small region of the brain in in the
+first indication that we're aiming at we
+are hoping to implant a series of these
+electrodes into the brains of people
+that have had a bad spinal cord injury
+so people that are essentially
+quadriplegic they have perfect brains
+but they can't move use them to move
+their body they can't move their arms or
+legs because of some high-level spinal
+cord damage exactly right and so this
+you know pristine motor cortex up in
+their brain is completely capable of
+operating a human body it's just not
+wired properly any longer to a human's
+arms or legs and so our goal is to place
+this implant into a motor cortex and
+have that person be able to then control
+a computer so a mouse and a keyboard as
+if they had their hands on a mouse and a
+keyboard even though they aren't moving
+their hands their motor intentions are
+coming directly out of the brain into
+the device and so they're able to regain
+their digital freedom uh and connect
+with the world through the internet
+why use robotics to insert these chips
+and the reason I asked that is that sure
+I can imagine that a robot could be more
+precise
+or less precise but in theory more
+precise than the human hand no tremor
+for instance right
+um uh more Precision in terms of uh
+maybe even a little micro detection
+device on the the tip of the blade or or
+something that could detect a capillary
+that you would want to avoid and swerve
+around that the human eye couldn't
+detect and you and I both know however
+that no two brains nor are the two sides
+of the same brain
+identical right so navigating through
+the brain is perhaps best carried out by
+a human however and here I'm going to
+interrupt myself again and say
+10 years ago face recognition
+was very clearly performed better by
+humans than machines and I think now
+machines do it better right so is this
+the idea that eventually or maybe even
+now robots are better surgeons than
+humans are in in this limited case yes
+uh these electrodes are so tiny and the
+blood vessels on the surface of the
+brain so numerous and so densely packed
+that a human physically can't do this a
+human hand is not steady enough to grab
+this you know couple Micron width Loop
+uh at the end of our electrode thread
+and place it accurately uh blindly by
+the way into the cortical surface
+accurately enough at the right depth to
+get through all the cortical layers that
+we want to reach
+and
+I would love if human surgeons were you
+know essential to this process
+but very soon humans run out of motor
+skills sufficient to do this job and so
+we are required in this case to lean on
+robots to do this incredibly precise uh
+incredibly fast incredibly numerous
+placement of electrodes into the right
+area of the brain so in some ways
+neurolink is pioneering the development
+of robotic surgeons as much as it's
+pioneering the exploration and
+augmentation and treatment of human
+brain conditions right and as the device
+exists currently as we're submitting it
+to the FDA it is only for the placement
+of the electrodes the the robot it's
+part of the surgery I or or another
+neurosurgeon still needs to do the you
+know the more crude part of opening the
+skin and skull and presenting the
+robotic pristine brain surface to sew
+Electric threads into
+well surely getting quadriplegics to be
+able to move again or maybe even to walk
+again is a um heroic goal and one that I
+think everyone would agree would be
+wonderful to accomplish is that the
+first goal because it's hard but doable
+right
+um or is that the first goal because you
+and Elon and other folks at neurolink
+have a passion for getting paralyzed
+people to move again yeah broadly
+speaking you know the mission of
+neuralink is to reduce human suffering
+at least in the near term you know
+there's hope that eventually there's a
+use here that makes sense for a brain
+interface to bring AI as a tool embedded
+in the brain that a human can use to
+augment their capabilities I think
+that's pretty far down the road for us
+but definitely on a desired roadmap in
+the near term we really are focused on
+people with terrible medical problems
+that have no options right now
+with regard to motor control
+you know our mutual friend recently
+departed Krishna shenoy was a giant in
+this field of motor prosthesis it just
+so happens that his work was
+foundational for a lot of people that
+work in this area including us and he
+was an advisor to neuralink
+um that work was farther along than most
+other work for addressing any function
+that lives on the surface of the brain
+the physical constraints of our approach
+require us currently to focus on only
+surface features on the brain so we
+can't say go to the really
+um
+very compelling surface deep depth
+functions that happen in the brain like
+you know mood appetite addiction pain
+sleep we'd love to get to that place
+eventually but in the immediate future
+our first indication or two or three
+will probably be brain surface functions
+like motor control
+I'd like to take a quick break and
+acknowledge one of our sponsors athletic
+greens athletic greens now called ag1 is
+a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that
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+nutritional needs I've been taking
+athletic green since 2012 so I'm
+delighted that they're sponsoring the
+podcast the reason I started taking
+athletic greens and the reason I still
+take athletic greens once are usually
+twice a day is that it gets to be the
+probiotics that I need for gut health
+our gut is very important it's populated
+by gut microbiota that communicate with
+the brain the immune system and
+basically all the biological systems of
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+immediate and long-term health
+and those probiotics and athletic greens
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+health in addition athletic greens
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+try athletic greens you can go to
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+again that's athleticgreens.com huberman
+to get the five free travel packs and
+the year supply of vitamin D3 K2 so for
+those listening the outer portions of
+the brain are
+filled with or consist of rather
+neocortex so the the bumpy stuff that
+looks like sea coral some forms of sea
+coral look like brains or brains look
+like them and then underneath uh reside
+a lot of the brain structures that
+control what Matt just referred to um
+things controlling mood hormone output
+how awake or asleep the brain is
+um and would you agree that those deeper
+regions of the brain have in some ways
+more predictable functions I mean that
+lesions there or stimulation there lead
+to more predictable outcomes in terms of
+deficits or improvements in function
+yeah in some way yes I mean the the
+deeper parts of the brain tend to be
+more stereotyped as in more similar
+between species than the the outer
+surface of the brain they're kind of the
+firmware or the the housekeeping
+functions to some degree body
+temperature blood pressure sex
+motivation
+hunger or things that you don't really
+need to vary dramatically between a fox
+and a human being
+whereas the the outer more reasoning
+functions of problem-solving functions
+between a fox and a human are vastly
+different and so the physical
+requirements of those brain outputs are
+different
+I think I heard Elon describe it as the
+human brain is I'm essentially a monkey
+brain with a super computer placed on
+the outside which
+um sparked some interesting ideas about
+what neocortex is doing we have all this
+brain real estate on top of all that
+more stereotyped function type stuff in
+the deeper brain and it's still unclear
+what neocortex is doing in the case of
+frontal cortex as you mentioned earlier
+it's clear that it's um providing some
+quieting of of impulses some context
+setting rule setting context switching
+all of that makes good sense but then
+there are a lot of cortical areas that
+sure involved in Vision or touch or
+hearing but then there's also a lot of
+real estate that just feels un
+unexplored right so I'm curious whether
+or not in your clinical work or work
+with neural link
+um or both whether or not you have ever
+encountered neurons
+that do something that's really peculiar
+and intriguing
+um and here I'm referring to examples
+that could be anywhere in the brain yeah
+like where you go wow like these neurons
+when I stimulate them or when they're
+taken away lead to something kind of
+bizarre but interesting yeah yeah
+there's
+um the one that comes immediately to
+mind is unfortunately in a terrible case
+in kids that have a tumor in the
+hypothalamus that lead to what we call
+gelastic seizures which is sort of an
+uncontrollable fit of laughter there's
+been cases in the literature where this
+laughter is so uncontrollable and so
+pervasive that people suffocate from
+failing to breathe where they laugh
+until they pass out
+and so you know you don't normally think
+of a deep structure in the brain like
+the hypothalamus as being involved in
+the you know a function like
+humor and and certainly when we think
+about this kind of laughter in these
+kids with tumors it's
+mirthless laughter is the the kind of
+textbook phrase
+humorless laughter it's just a reflexive
+um almost
+zombie-like behavior and
+it comes from a very small population of
+neurons deep in the brain this is one of
+the other sort of strange
+loss of functions you might say is you
+know it's it's nice that you and I can
+sit here and not have constant uh
+disruptive fits of laughter coming out
+of our bodies but that that's a neuronal
+function that's you know thank goodness
+due to neurons properly wired and
+properly functioning and any neurons
+that do anything like this can be broken
+and so we see this in horrifying cases
+like that from time to time
+so I'm starting to sense that there are
+two broad bins of approaches to
+augmenting the brain either to treat
+disease or for sake of increasing memory
+creating super brains Etc one category
+you alluded to earlier which is
+pharmacology and you specifically
+mentioned that the tremendous power that
+pharmacology holds right whether or not
+it's through psychedelics or through
+prescription drug or you know some other
+compound
+the other approach are these little
+microelectrodes that are extremely
+strategically placed right into multiple
+regions in order to play essentially a
+concert of electricity that is exactly
+right to get a quadriplegic moving
+um
+that Sparks two questions first of all
+is there a role for and is neural link
+interested in combining pharmacology
+with stimulation
+so not immediately right now we're
+solely focused on the extremely hard
+some might say the hardest problem
+facing humans right now of decoding the
+brain through electrical stimulation and
+recording that's that's enough for us
+for now so um to just uh give us a bit
+Fuller picture of this you were talking
+about a patient who can't move their
+limbs because they've have spinal cord
+damage right
+um the motor cortex that controls
+movement is in theory fine right you
+make a small hole in the skull and
+through that hole a robot is going to
+place electrodes
+obviously motor cortex but then where
+how is the idea that you're going to
+play a concert from different locations
+you're going to hit all the keys on the
+piano in different combinations and then
+figure out what can move the limbs what
+I'm alluding to here is I still don't
+understand how the signals are going to
+get out of motor cortex past the lesion
+and into
+um and out to the limbs because the
+lesion hasn't been dealt with at all in
+this scenario so just to clarify there I
+I
+should emphasize we're not in the
+immediate future talking about
+reconnecting the brain to the patient's
+own limbs that's on the road map but
+it's way down the road map a few years
+what we're talking about in the
+immediate future is having the person be
+able to control electronic devices
+around them with their motor intentions
+alone right so prosthetic hand and arm
+or just Mouse and and keys on a mouse
+and keys on a keyboard for starters so
+you wouldn't see anything in the world
+move
+uh as they have an intention the patient
+might imagine say flexing their fist or
+moving their wrist and what would happen
+on the screen is the mouse would move
+down and left and click on an icon and
+bring up their word processor and then a
+keyboard at the bottom of the screen
+would allow them to you know select
+letters in sequence and they could type
+this is the easy place to start easy in
+quotes I would say because
+um the transformation of electrical
+signals from motor cortex through the
+brain stem into the spinal cord and out
+to the muscles is somewhat known right
+through 100 years or more of incredible
+laboratory research right but the
+transformation meaning how to take the
+electrical signals out of motor cortex
+and put it into a a mouse or a robot arm
+that's not a trivial problem I mean that
+that's a whole other set of problems in
+fact well we're taking we're unloading
+some of that difficulty from uh from the
+the brain itself from the brain of the
+patient and putting some of that into
+software so we're using smarter
+algorithms to decode the motor
+intentions out of the brain we have been
+able to do this in monkeys really well
+so we have you know a small army of
+monkeys playing video games for you know
+smoothie rewards and they do really well
+we we actually have the world record of
+a bit rate of information coming out of
+a monkey's brain to you know
+intelligently control a cursor on a
+screen we're doing that better than
+anyone else
+and you know again thanks in no small
+part due to Krishna shenoi and his you
+know his lab and the people that have
+worked for him that have been helping
+neuralink
+um but what you can't do with that
+monkey is ask him what what he's
+thinking you can't ask him we can ask
+him but he won't get a very interesting
+answer yeah
+you can't tell him to try something
+different you can't tell him to hey you
+know try their shoulder on this early
+try the other hand and see if there's
+some cross body uh neuron firing that
+that gives you a useful signal once we
+get to people
+we expect to see what they've seen when
+they've done similar work in academic
+Labs which is the the human can work
+with you to vastly accelerate this
+process and get much more interesting
+results so one of the things out of out
+of Stanford recently is
+there was a lab that with Krishna and
+Jamie Henderson and other people decode
+speech out of the hand movement area in
+the brain so what we know is that there
+are
+you know multitudes of useful signals in
+each area of the brain that we've looked
+at so far they just tend to be highly
+expressed for say hand movement in the
+hand area but that doesn't mean only
+hand movement in the hand area
+okay so here's the confidence test
+there's a long history
+uh dating back really prior to the 1950s
+of scientists doing experiments on
+themselves sure
+not because they are Reckless but
+because they want the exact sorts of
+information that you're talking about
+the ability to really understand how
+intention and awareness of goals can
+shape outcomes in biology if that is
+vague to people listening what I mean
+here is that for many probably hundreds
+of years if not longer scientists have
+taken the drugs they've studied or
+stimulated their own brain or done
+things to really try and get a sense of
+what the animals they work on or the
+patients they work on might be
+experiencing psychiatrists are sort of
+famous for this by the way right I'm not
+pointing fingers at anybody but
+psychiatrists are known to try the drugs
+that they administer right and some
+people would probably imagine that's a
+good thing just so that the clinicians
+could have empathy for the sorts of side
+effects and not so great effects of some
+of these drugs that they administer to
+to patients but
+the confidence test
+I present you is
+would you be willing or are you willing
+if allowed to have these electrodes
+implanted into your motor cortex yeah
+you're not a quadriplegic right you can
+move your limbs yeah but
+given the state of the technology at
+neurolink now
+would you do that or maybe in the next
+couple of years if you were allowed
+would you be willing to do that yeah and
+be the person to say hey turn up the
+stimulation over there I feel like I
+want to reach for the cup right with
+that robotic arm but I'm feeling kind of
+some resistance because it's exactly
+that kind of experiment done on a a
+person who can move their limbs and who
+deeply understands the technology and
+the goals of the experiment that I would
+argue actually stands to advance the
+technology fastest sure as opposed to
+putting the electrodes first into
+somebody who
+um is imperative a number of levels and
+then trying to think about why things
+aren't working right right and again
+that you know this is all with the the
+goal of of reversing paralysis in mind
+um but would you implant yourself with
+these microelectrodes yeah absolutely I
+I would be excited to do that I think
+for the first iteration of the device it
+probably wouldn't be very meaningful it
+wouldn't be very useful because I can
+still move my limbs and our first
+outputs from this are things that I can
+do just as easily with my hands right
+moving a mouse typing in a keyboard
+um we are necessarily making this device
+as a medical device for starters for
+people with bad medical problems and no
+good options
+it wouldn't really make sense for an
+able-bodied person to get one in the
+near term
+it as the technology develops and we
+make devices specifically designed to
+perform functions that can't be done
+even by an able-bodied person
+say eventually refine the technique to
+get to the point where you can type
+faster with your mind and one of these
+devices than you can with text to speech
+or speech to text and your fingers
+that's a use case that makes sense for
+someone like me to get it it doesn't
+really make sense for me to you know get
+one when it allows me to you know use a
+mouse slightly worse than I can with my
+hand currently that said the safety of
+the device I would absolutely vouch for
+from you know the hundreds of surgeries
+that I've personally done with this I I
+think it's much safer than many of the
+industry standard FDA approved surgeries
+that I routinely do on on patients that
+you know are no one even thinks twice
+about their standard of care neurolink
+is already reached in my mind a safety
+threshold that is far beyond a commonly
+accepted safety threshold
+along the lines of augmenting one's
+biological function or functions in the
+world I think now's the appropriate time
+to talk about the small lump uh present
+in the top of your hand for those
+listening not watching there's a it
+looks like a a small lump between
+um
+Dr mcdougall's forefinger and thumb or
+index finger and thumb
+um placed on skin on the top of his hand
+you've had this for some years now
+because we've known each other for gosh
+probably seven years now or so and
+you've always had it in the time that
+I've known you what is that lump
+um and why did you put it in there yeah
+so it's a small writable RFID tag what's
+an RFID what does RFID stand for yeah
+radio frequency identification and so
+it's just a very small implantable chip
+that wireless devices can temporarily
+power if you approach an antenna they
+can power and send a small amount of
+data back and forth so most phones have
+the capability of reading and writing to
+this chip for years it it let me into my
+house it unlocked a deadbolt on my front
+door
+for some years it unlocked the doors at
+neuralink and let me through you know
+the the various locked doors inside the
+building
+um
+it is writable I can write a small
+amount of data to it and so for some
+some years in early uh the early days of
+crypto I had a crypto private key
+written on it to store a cryptocurrency
+that I thought was you know a dead
+offshoot of one of the main uh crypto
+currencies after it forked and so I put
+the private wallet key on there and
+forgot about it and remembered a few
+years later that it was there and went
+and checked and it was worth you know a
+few thousand dollars more than when I
+had left it on there so that was a nice
+finding change in the sofa in the 21st
+century and then when you say you read
+it you're essentially taking a a phone
+or other device and scanning it over the
+the lump in your hand so to speak and
+then it can read the data from there
+yeah essentially yeah um what other
+sorts of things could one put into these
+rfids in theory and how long can they
+stay in there before you need to take
+them out and um yeah and recharge them
+or replace them well these are passive
+they're coded in
+biocompatible glass and as an extra I'm
+a rock climber and so I was worried
+about that glass shattering during rock
+climbing I additionally coated them in
+another ring of silicone before
+implanting that so it's it's pretty safe
+they're passive there's no battery
+there's no Active Electronics in them so
+they could last the rest of my life I
+don't think I'd ever have to remove it
+for any reason you know at some point
+the technology is always improving so I
+might remove it and upgrade it
+that's not inconceivable already there's
+you know 10x more storage versions
+available that could be a drop in
+replacement for this if I ever remove it
+but you know that it it has a small
+Niche use case and it's an interesting
+proof of concept tiptoeing towards the
+concept that you mentioned of you know
+you have to be willing to go through the
+things that you're suggesting to your
+patients in order to you know say with a
+straight face that you think this is a
+reasonable thing to do
+so a small subcutaneous implant in the
+hand is a little different than a brain
+implant but yeah what's involved in
+getting that RFID chip into the hand is
+it I'm assuming it's an outpatient
+procedure presumably you did it on
+yourself yeah yeah this was a kitchen
+table kind of procedure
+um any anesthetic or is or no you know I
+um I've seen people do this with
+lidocaine injection I for my money I
+think a lidocaine injection is probably
+as painful as just doing the procedures
+a little cut in that thin skin on the
+top of the hand right some people are
+cringing right now other people are
+saying I want one because you'll have to
+never worry about losing your keys yeah
+or passwords I actually would like them
+for passwords because I'm dreadfully bad
+at uh remembering passwords I have to
+put them in places uh all over the place
+and then it's like I'm like that kid in
+um remember that movie Stand by me where
+the kid hides the pennies under the the
+porch and then uses the map yeah spends
+all summer trying to wind them so I can
+relate uh yeah so a little it was just a
+little slit and then put in there no
+local immune response no no pus no
+swelling all the materials are
+completely biocompatible that are on the
+surface exposed to the body so no no bad
+reaction it healed up you know in days
+and it was fine very cool um since we're
+on video here maybe can you just uh
+maybe raise it and show us yeah so so
+were you not to point out uh that little
+lump I I would have known to to ask
+about it but and uh any other members of
+your family have have these a few years
+after having this and seeing the
+convenience of me being able to open the
+door without keys uh my wife insisted
+that I put one in her as well so she's
+walking around with one fantastic we
+consider them our sort of our our
+version of wedding rings love it well
+certainly um more permanent than wedding
+rings in in some sense
+um
+I can't help but ask this question even
+though it might seem a little bit off
+topic as long as we're talking about
+implantable devices and Bluetooth and
+RFID chips in the body I get asked a lot
+about
+um the safety or lack thereof of a
+Bluetooth headphones
+um you work on the brain you're a brain
+surgeon
+um that's valuable real estate in there
+and um you understand about
+electromagnetic fields and sure
+um any discussion about emfs immediately
+puts us in the category of uh oh like
+get their tin foil hats and yet I've
+been researching emfs for a future
+episode of the podcast sure and emfs are
+a real thing that's not a valuable
+statement everything's a real thing at
+some level even an idea but there does
+seem to be some evidence that
+electromagnetic fields of sufficient
+strength can alter the function of maybe
+the health of but the function of neural
+tissue given that neural tissue is
+electrically signaling among itself so
+um I'll just ask this in a very
+straightforward way do you use Bluetooth
+headphones or wired headphones yeah
+Bluetooth and you're not worried about
+any kind of EMF Fields across the skull
+no I mean I I think the energy levels
+involved are so tiny that uh you know
+ionizing radiation aside we're way out
+of the realm of ionizing radiation that
+people would worry about you know tumor
+causing EMF Fields
+even just the electromagnetic field
+itself
+as is very well described in a Bluetooth
+frequency range the power level are tiny
+in these devices and so you know we are
+Awash in these signals whether you use
+Bluetooth headphones or not for that
+matter you're you're getting bombarded
+with ionizing radiation in a very tiny
+amount no matter where you live on earth
+unless you live under huge amounts of
+water
+um it's unavoidable uh and so I think
+you just have to trust that your body
+has the DNA repair mechanisms that it
+needs to deal with the constant bath of
+ionizing radiation that you're in uh as
+a result of being in the universe and
+exposed to cosmic rays
+in terms of electromagnetic fields there
+it's just it's uh
+you know the energy levels are way way
+out of the range where I would be
+worried about this what about heat
+um you know I don't use the earbuds any
+longer for a couple of reasons once as
+you know I take a lot of supplements and
+I reach into my left pocket once and
+swallowed a handful of supplements that
+included a Bluetooth a airpod pro
+um I knew it I swallowed it the moment
+after I
+gulped it down by the way folks please
+don't do this it was not a good idea it
+was it wasn't an idea it was a mistake
+and but I could see it on my phone as
+registering there never saw it again so
+I'm assuming it's no longer in my body
+but um uh anyway there's a bad joke
+there to be sure
+um but in any event I tend to lose them
+or misplace them so that's the main
+reason but I did notice when I used them
+that there's some heat generated there
+um I also am not convinced that plugging
+your ears all day long is good there's
+some ventilation through the through the
+sinus systems that include the ears so
+it sounds to me like you're not
+concerned about the use of of
+um earbuds but
+um what about heat near the brain I mean
+there's the the cochlea the auditory
+mechanisms that sit pretty close to the
+surface there
+um heat and neural tissue are not
+friends sure
+um I'd much rather get my brain cold
+than hot yeah
+um in terms of keeping the cells healthy
+and Alive
+um should we be thinking about the heat
+effects of some of these devices or
+other things is there anything we're
+overlooking well think about it this way
+the uh I use cars as an analogy a lot
+and you know mostly internal combustion
+engine cards so these analogies are
+gonna start to be foreign and useless
+for another generation of people that
+grow up in the era of electric cars but
+using cars as a as a platform to talk
+about uh
+fluid cooling systems your body has a
+massive distributed fluid cooling system
+similar to a car's radiator
+you're pumping blood all around your
+body all the time at a very strictly
+controlled temperature
+that blood carries it's mostly water so
+it carries a huge amount of the heat
+away or cold away from any area of the
+body that's focused heating or focused
+cooling so you could put an ice cube on
+your skin until it completely melts away
+and the blood is going to bring heat
+back to that area you can put you can
+stand in the sun under
+much more scary
+heating Rays from the Sun itself that
+contain UV radiation that's that's
+definitely damaging your DNA if you're
+looking for things to be afraid of the
+sun is a good one
+now you're talking to the guy that tells
+everybody he got sunlight in their eyes
+every morning but I don't want people to
+get burned or give themselves skin
+cancer I encourage people to protect
+their skin accordingly and and different
+individuals require different levels of
+protection from the Sun sure some people
+do very well in a lot of sunshine never
+get basal cell or anything like that
+some people and it's not just people
+with very fair skin a minimum of sun
+exposure can cause some issues and here
+I'm talking about sun exposure to the
+skin of course staring at the sun is a
+bad idea I never recommend thinking
+about the sun just as a heater uh you
+know for for a moment to compare it with
+Bluetooth headphones your body is very
+capable of carrying that heat away and
+dissipating it you know via sweat
+evaporation
+or you know temperature Equalization so
+any heat that's locally generated in the
+ear
+you know one there's a pretty large bony
+barrier there but two there's a ton of
+blood flow in the scalp and in the head
+in general and definitely in the brain
+that's going to regulate that
+temperature so I think certainly there
+can be a tiny temperature variation but
+I doubt very seriously that it's enough
+to cause a significant problem I'd like
+to go back to brain augmentation you've
+made very clear that one of the first
+goals for neurolink is to get
+quadriplegics walking again and again
+what a marvelous goal that is and I
+certainly hope you guys succeed well
+again just just to be very clear the
+first step is we we aren't reconnecting
+the patient's own muscle system to their
+motor Court allowing them um excuse me
+uh agency over the movement of things in
+the world yes and eventually their body
+and you're exactly right yeah eventually
+their body we would we would love to do
+that and we've done a lot of work on uh
+developing a system for stimulating the
+spinal cord itself and so that gets to
+the question that you uh that you asked
+a few minutes ago of how do you
+reconnect the motor cortex to the rest
+of the body well if you can bypass the
+damaged area of the spinal cord and have
+an implant in the spinal cord itself
+connected to an implant in the brain and
+have them talking to each other you can
+take the perfectly intact motor signals
+out of the the motor cortex and send
+them to the spinal cord which most of
+the wiring should be intact in the
+spinal cord below the level of say the
+the injury caused by a car accident or
+motorcycle accident or gunshot wound or
+whatever and it should be possible to
+reconnect the brain to the body in that
+way so not out of the realm of
+possibility that you know in some small
+number of years that neuralink will be
+able to reconnect to somebody's own body
+to their brain
+and here I just want to flag the
+um 100 years or more of incredible work
+by basic scientists
+um the names that I learned about in my
+textbooks as a graduate student were
+like georgeopolis and um that won't mean
+anything to anyone unless you're a
+neuroscientist but churchopolis um
+performed some of the first
+sophisticated recordings out of motor
+cortex just simply asking like what
+sorts of electrical patterns are present
+in motor cortex as an animal or human
+move is a limb
+um Krishna shinoy being another
+um major Pioneer in this area and many
+others right and just really
+highlighting the fact that basic
+research where
+a exploration of neural tissue is
+carried out at the level of anatomy and
+physiology really sets down the pavement
+on the runway to do the sorts of big
+clinical uh Expeditions that you all at
+neurolink are doing yeah it can't be
+said enough that you know we broadly
+speaking in Industry sometimes are and
+sometimes stand on the shoulders of
+academic Giants they were the real
+Pioneers that they were involved in the
+grind for years in an unglorious
+unglamorous way no stock option no stock
+options
+and you know the reward uh for all the
+hard work is a paper at the end of the
+day that is read by you know dozens of
+people and so you know they were
+selfless uh academic researchers that
+that made all this possible and we all
+humanity and neuralink owe them a
+massive debt of gratitude for all the
+hard work that they've done and continue
+to do
+I agree I'd like to just take a brief
+moment and thank one of our podcast
+sponsors which is inside tracker inside
+tracker is a personalized nutrition
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+believer in getting regular blood work
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+work is the only way that you can
+monitor the markers such as hormone
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+Health one major challenge with blood
+work however is that most of the time it
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+values becomes very straightforward
+because it has a personalized dashboard
+that you can use to address the
+nutrition-based behavior-based
+supplement-based approaches that you can
+use in order to move those values into
+the ranges that are optimal for you Your
+vitality and your longevity inside
+tracker now includes a measurement of
+APO lipoprotein B so-called apob in
+their ultimate plan apob is a key marker
+of cardiovascular health and therefore
+there's extreme value to knowing your
+apob levels if you'd like to try inside
+tracker you can go to insidetracker.com
+huberman to get 20 off any of inside
+tracker's plans again that's inside
+tracker.com huberman to get 20 off
+along the lines of augmentation early on
+in some of the public discussions about
+neurolink that I overheard between Elon
+and various podcast hosts Etc
+there were some lofty ideas set out that
+I think are still very much in play in
+people's minds things like for instance
+electrical stimulation of the
+hippocampus that you so appropriately
+have worn on your shirt today so for
+those they have beautiful um looks like
+either a it looks like a Golgi or a
+kahal rendition of the hippocampus yeah
+translates to seahorse and it's an area
+of the brain that's involved in learning
+and memory and among other things
+there was this idea thrown out that a
+chip or chips could be implants in the
+hippocampus that would allow greater
+than normal memory abilities perhaps
+that's one idea sure another idea that I
+heard about in these discussions was for
+instance that you would have some chips
+in your brain and I would have some
+chips in my brain and you and I could
+just sit here look at he looking at each
+other or not nodding or shaking our
+heads and essentially hear each other's
+thoughts which sounds outrageous but of
+course why not why should we constrain
+ourselves
+um to uh as our good friend Eddie Chang
+and uh who's a neurosurgeon who was
+already on this podcast once before said
+speech is just the shaping of breath as
+it exits our lungs incredible really
+when you think about it but
+we don't necessarily need speech to hear
+and understand each other's thoughts
+because the neural signals that produce
+that shaping of the lungs come from some
+intention you know I have some idea
+although it might not seem like it about
+what I'm going to say next so is that
+possible that we could sit here
+and just hear each other's thoughts and
+um and also how would we restrict what
+the other person could hear yeah well so
+absolutely I mean think about
+the fact that we could do this right now
+if you pulled out your phone and started
+texting me on my phone and I looked down
+and started texting you we would be
+communicating without looking at each
+other or talking
+shifting that function from a phone to
+an implanted device it requires no magic
+Advance no Leap Forward it's technology
+we already know how to do
+if we say put a device in that allows
+you to control a keyboard and a mouse
+which is our stated intention for our
+first human clinical trial or and
+against I'm deliberately interrupting or
+I can text an entire team of people sure
+simultaneously and they can text me and
+in theory I could have a bunch of
+thoughts and
+5 10 50 people could hear right
+um or um probably more to their
+preference um they could talk to me yeah
+and and so you know texting each other
+with our brains is maybe an uninspiring
+rendition of this but it it's not uh
+very difficult to imagine the
+implementation of the same device in a
+more verbally focused area of the brain
+that allows you to more naturally speak
+the thoughts that you're thinking and
+have me have them rendered into speech
+that I can hear uh you know maybe via a
+bone conducting implant so silently here
+or or not silently like I could let's
+say I was getting off the plane and I
+wanted to let somebody at home know that
+I had arrived I might be able to think
+in my mind think their first name which
+might cue up a device that would then
+play my voice to them and just got off
+the plane I'm gonna grab my bag and then
+I'll give you a call right on their home
+Alexa right
+so that's all possible meaning we know
+the origin of the neural signals that
+give us rise to speech we know the
+different mechanical and neural apparati
+like the cochlea
+um eardrums Etc that
+transduce sound waves into electrical
+signals right essentially all the pieces
+are known we're just really talking
+about like refining it yeah refining it
+and reconfiguring it it's I mean it's
+not an easy problem but it's really an
+engineering problem rather than a
+neuroscience problem for that for that
+use case you know for a non-verbal
+communication you might say
+um that's a solved problem in a very
+crude disjointed way uh so some Labs
+have solved you know part one of it some
+Labs have solved part two of it there
+are products out there that solve you
+know say the implanted bone conduction
+part of it for the for the deaf
+Community
+um
+there are there are no implementations
+I'm aware of that are pulling all that
+together into one product that's a
+streamlined package from end to end I
+think that's a few years down the road
+and we I think have some hints of how
+easily or poorly people will adapt to
+these um let's call them novel
+Transformations a few years ago I was on
+Instagram and I saw a post from a woman
+um her name is cassar Jacobson and she
+is deaf since birth and can sign and to
+some extent can relapse but she was
+um
+discussing uh neosensory so this is a a
+device that translates sound in the
+environment into touch Sensations on her
+hand or wrist she's a uh admirer of
+birds and all things Avian and
+um I reached out to her about this
+device because I'm very curious because
+this is a very interesting use case of
+of neuroplasticity in the sensory domain
+which is a fascination of mine and she
+said that
+um yes indeed it afforded her novel
+experiences now when walking past say
+pigeons in the park if they were to make
+some whatever sounds that pigeons make
+that she would feel those sounds and
+that indeed it enriched her experience
+of those birds
+um in ways that obviously it wouldn't
+otherwise I haven't followed up with her
+recently to find out whether or not
+ongoing use of neosensory has made for a
+better
+worse or kind of um
+equivalent experience of avians in the
+world which were her is a near Obsession
+um so she Delights in them
+um what are your thoughts about in a
+peripheral devices like that periphery
+peripheral meaning outside of the the
+skull no requirement for a uh a surgery
+do you think that there's a more
+immediate or even a uh just generally
+potent
+um use case for peripheral devices and
+do you think that those are going to be
+used more readily before the kind of
+brain surgery requiring devices are used
+yeah
+um certainly the barrier to entry is
+lower the barrier to adoption is low you
+know if you're making a tactile glove
+that's
+hard to say no to when you can slip it
+on and slip it off and not not have to
+get your skin cut at all
+um
+what you know again there's no perfect
+measure of the efficacy of a device of
+one device compared to another
+especially across modalities but one one
+way that you can start to compare apples
+to oranges is bitrate you know useful
+information in or out of the brain as
+you know transformed into digital data
+and so you can put a single number on
+that and you have to ask when you look
+at a device like that is what is the bit
+rate in what is the bit rate out how
+much information are you able to
+usefully convey into the system and get
+out of the system into the body into the
+brain and uh I think there's what we've
+seen in the early stabs at this is that
+there's a very low threshold for bit
+rate on some of the devices that are
+trying to avoid you know a direct brain
+surgery Could you um perhaps say what
+you just said but in a way that um maybe
+people who aren't as familiar with
+thinking about bitrate might um
+might be able to digest there I'm
+referring to myself
+um I mean I understand bitrate I
+understand that adding a new channel of
+information is just that adding
+information are you saying it's
+important to understand whether or not
+that new information provides for novel
+function or experience and to and
+um to what extent is the the newness of
+that valid and adaptive well I'm saying
+more uh
+it's hard to measure utility in this
+space it's hard to you know put a single
+metric single number on how useful a
+technology is
+one crude way to try to get at that is
+is uh bit rate think of it as as back in
+the days of dial-up modems the bit rate
+of your modem was you know 56k or 96 I
+can still hear the sound of the dial up
+in the background
+yeah that was a bit rate that thankfully
+kept steadily going up and up and up
+your your internet service provider
+gives you a number uh that is the
+maximum usable data that you can
+transmit back and forth from the
+internet that's a useful way to think
+about these assistive devices how much
+information are you able to get in into
+the brain and out of the brain usefully
+and right now that that number is very
+small even compared to the old modems
+but you have to ask yourself when you're
+looking at a technology what's the
+ceiling what's the theoretical maximum
+and for a lot of these Technologies the
+theoretical maximum is is very low
+disappointingly low even if it's
+perfectly executed and and perfect
+developed as a technology and I think
+the thing that attracts a lot of us to a
+technology like neuraling is that the
+ceiling is incredibly High there's no
+obvious reason that you can't interface
+with millions of neurons as this
+technology is refined and and developed
+further so that's the kind of wide band
+you know high bandwidth brain interface
+that you want to develop if you're
+talking about
+um and a semantic prosthetic uh an AI
+assistant to your cognitive abilities uh
+you know the more sci-fi things that we
+think about in the coming decades
+um
+so uh it's an important caveat when
+you're evaluating these Technologies
+they really want it to be something that
+you can expand off into the Sci-Fi
+so let's take this a step further
+because as you're saying this I'm
+realizing that people have been doing
+exactly what neurolink is trying to do
+now for a very long time let me give you
+an example
+um
+people who are blind who have no pattern
+Vision have used canes for a very long
+time now the cane is not a chip it's not
+a an electrode it's not neosensory right
+none of that stuff
+what it is is essentially a a stick that
+has
+um
+an interface with a surface so it swept
+back and forth across the ground and
+you're translating what would otherwise
+be visual cues into
+somatosensory cues sure and we know that
+blind people are very good at
+understanding
+um even when they are approaching say a
+curb Edge because they are integrating
+that information from the tip of the
+cane
+um up through their somatosensory cortex
+and their motor cortex with other things
+like the changes in the the wind and the
+sound as they round a corner and um here
+I'm imagining a like a corner in San
+Francisco downtown which you get to the
+corner it's a completely different set
+of auditory cues
+and very often we know and this is
+because my laboratory worked on visual
+repair for a long time I talked to a lot
+of blind people who use different
+devices to navigate the world that they
+aren't aware of the fact that they're
+integrating these other cues but they
+nonetheless do them subconsciously right
+um and in doing so get pretty good at
+navigating with a cane right now Kane
+isn't perfect but you can imagine the
+other form of of navigating as a blind
+person uh which is to just attach
+yourself
+or attached to you another nervous
+system the best that we know being a dog
+sighted dog sure that can cue you again
+with a stopping at a curb's edge or even
+if there are some individuals that might
+seem a little sketchy dogs are also very
+good at sensing
+um different uh arousal States and
+others threat danger sure I mean they're
+Exquisite at it right so here what we're
+really talking about is taking a cane or
+another biological system essentially a
+whole nervous system and saying this
+other nervous system's job is to get you
+to navigate more safely through the
+world right in some sense what neurolink
+is trying to do is that but with
+robotics to insert them and chips which
+raises the the question people are going
+to say finally a question the question
+is this we hear about
+BMI brain machine interface which is
+really what neuraling specializes in we
+also hear about AI another example where
+there's great promise and great fear
+right we hear about machine learning as
+well to what extent can these brain
+machine interfaces
+learn the same way a seeing eye dog
+would learn but unlike a seeing eye dog
+continue to learn over time and get
+better and better and better because
+it's also listening to the nervous
+system that it's trying to support right
+put simply what is the role for AI and
+machine learning in the type of work
+that you're doing that's a great
+question I think you know it goes both
+ways basically what you're doing is
+taking a very crude software
+intelligence I would say not exactly a
+full full-blown AI but it's some
+well-designed software that can adapt to
+changes in firing of the brain and
+you're coupling it with another form of
+intelligence a human intelligence and
+you're allowing the two to learn each
+other so undoubtedly the human that has
+a neuralink device will get better at
+using it over time undoubtedly the
+software that the neurolink engineers
+have written will adapt to the firing
+patterns that that the device is able to
+record and over time focus in on
+meaningful signals toward movement right
+so if a neuron is fire a high firing
+rate when you intend to move the mouse
+cursor up and to the right
+it doesn't know that when it starts when
+you first put this in it's just a random
+series of signals as far as the chip
+knows but you start correlating it with
+what the person what you know the person
+wants to do as expressed in a series of
+games so you you assume that
+you know that the person wants to move
+the mouse on the screen to the Target
+that's shown because you tell them
+that's the goal and so you start
+correlating the activity
+that you record when they're moving
+toward an up and right Target on a
+screen with that firing pattern and
+similarly for up and left down and left
+down and right and so you develop a
+model
+um
+semi-intelligently in the software for
+what the person is intending to do and
+let the person run wild with it for a
+while and they start to get better at
+using the model presented to them by the
+by the software as expressed by the
+mouse moving or not moving properly on
+the screen right so it's imagine a
+scenario where you're asking somebody to
+play piano but
+the the sound that comes out of each key
+randomly shifts over time
+um very difficult problem but a human
+brain is good enough with the aid of
+software to solve that problem and and
+map well enough to a semi-stable state
+that they're going to know how to use
+that Mouse even when they say turn the
+device off for the night come back to it
+the next day and some of the signals
+have shifted so you're describing this
+I'm I'm recalling a recent experience I
+got one of these um rowers you know for
+to exercise and I am well aware that
+there's a proper row stroke and there's
+a improper row stroke and most everybody
+including me who's never been coached in
+rowing gets on this thing and pushes
+with their legs and pulls with their
+arms and back and it's some mix of
+Incorrect and maybe a smidgen of correct
+type execution
+there's a function within the rower that
+allows
+you in this case I mean to play a game
+where you can actually
+um every row stroke you generate arrows
+on toward a dartboard and it knows
+whether or not you're generating the
+appropriate forces at the given segment
+to the row the initial pull when you're
+leaning back Etc and adjusts the
+trajectory of the arrow so that when you
+do a proper row stroke it gets closer to
+a bullseye and it's very satisfying
+because you now have a visual feedback
+that's unrelated to this
+um the kinds of instructions that one
+would expect like oh you know hinge your
+hip a bit more or you know splay your
+knees a bit more reach more with your
+arms or pull first with your back all
+the rowers are probably cringing as I
+say this because they're realizing the
+what is exactly the point which is I
+don't know how to row but over time
+simply by paying attention to whether or
+not the arrow is hitting the bullseye or
+not more or less frequently
+you can improve your row stroke and get
+as I understand pretty close to Optimal
+row stroke
+in the same way that if you had a coach
+there telling you hey do this and do
+that what we're really talking about
+here is neurobiofeedback sure so is that
+analogy similar to what you're
+describing yeah that's a great analogy
+you know humans are really good at
+learning how to play games in software
+so video games are an awesome platform
+for us to use as a training environment
+for people to get better at controlling
+these things in fact it's it's the
+default and the obvious way to do it is
+to have people and monkeys play video
+games do you play video games yeah sure
+which video games
+let's see I you know play old ones I'm a
+little nostalgic so uh I uh like the old
+Blizzard game Starcraft and Warcraft I
+don't even know those I remember the
+first Apple computers I mean I go how
+old are you uh 43 okay 44 now as of a
+few days ago happy birthday so we're a
+little bit offset there yeah I can
+recall um Mike Tyson's punch out like
+the original Nintendo game Super Mario
+Brothers
+um but the game so the games you're
+describing I don't recall that my
+understanding is that the newer games
+are are far more sophisticated in some
+respects I I did recently find time to
+play cyberpunk
+um which was really satisfying and maybe
+appropriate
+it's a game where the characters are all
+fully modded out with cybernetic
+implants well perfect um but you know
+the the root of the game is run around
+and shoot things so maybe not so
+different from you know duck hunt or
+whatever from our childhoods
+the reason I ask about video games is um
+there's been some controversy as to
+whether or not they are making young
+brains better or worse and I think some
+of the work from Adam gazzali's Lab at
+UCSF and other Laboratories have shown
+that actually provided that um
+children in particular and adults are
+also spending time in normal face to
+let's call them more traditional
+face-to-face interactions that video
+games can actually make nervous systems
+that is people a much more proficient at
+learning and motor execution sure
+um visual detection
+um and on and on yeah there's some work
+uh showing that surgeons are better if
+they play video games so I try to
+squeeze some in as a you know a
+professional development activity great
+great well I'm sure you're getting
+cheers from the uh from those that like
+video games out there and some of the
+parents who are trying to get their kids
+to play fewer video games are cringing
+but that's okay we'll let them settle uh
+they're familial disputes among
+themselves
+let's talk about pigs sure
+neural link has been
+um quite generous I would say in
+announcing their discoveries and their
+goals and I I want to highlight this
+because I think it's quite unusual for a
+company to do this
+um I'm probably going to earn a few
+enemies by saying this
+um despite the fact that I've always
+owned Apple devices and from the South
+Bay
+um you know the apple design team is
+notoriously cryptic about what they're
+going to do next or when the next phone
+or computer is going to come out is is
+is vaulted to
+um a serious extent neural link has been
+pretty open about their goals right with
+the understanding the goals change and
+have to change and one of the things
+that they've done which I think is
+marvelous is they've held online
+symposia
+where you and some other colleagues of
+mine from the Neuroscience committee Dan
+Adams who have tremendous respect for
+and Elon and others their neural link
+have shared some of the progress that
+they've made in experimental animals I'm
+highlighting this because I think if one
+takes a step back I mean just for most
+people to
+know about and realize that there's
+experimentation on animals implantation
+of electrodes and so on is itself a
+pretty bold move because that
+understandably evokes some strong
+emotions
+um in people and in some people evokes
+extremely strong emotions sure
+um
+neural link did one such Symposium where
+they showed implant devices in pigs
+right
+then they did another one you guys did
+another one where it was implant devices
+in monkeys right I assume at some point
+there will be one of these public
+symposia where
+um the implant devices will be in a
+human
+what was the rationale for using pigs
+I'm told pigs are very nice creatures
+yeah I'm told that they are quite smart
+right
+um and
+for all my years as a neuroscientist and
+having worked admittedly on every
+species from mice to cuttlefish to
+humans to hamsters to uh you know I
+confess um various carnivore species
+which I no longer do I work on humans
+now for various reasons I never in my
+life thought I would see a implant
+device in the cortex of a pig sure why
+work on pigs yeah well let me let me say
+first neurolink is almost entirely
+composed of animal loving people the
+people at norlink are
+obsessive animal lovers there are signs
+up all around the office you know
+spontaneously put up by people within
+the organization you know talking about
+how we want to save animals we want to
+protect animals
+if there was any possible way
+to help people the way we want to help
+people without using animals in our
+research we would do it it's just not
+known how to do that right now and so we
+are completely restricted to making
+advances to getting a device approval
+through the FDA by first showing that
+it's incredibly safe in animals
+and so as is the case for any medical
+advancement essentially exactly I do
+want to highlight this that the the FDA
+and the other governing bodies
+um
+oversee these types of experiments and
+ensure that they're done with a minimum
+of discomfort to the animals of course
+but
+um I think there's an inherent
+speciesism right in uh in most humans
+not all some people truly see
+equivalence between a lizard and a human
+lizard life being equivalent to human
+life most human beings I think in
+particular human beings who themselves
+or have loved ones that are suffering
+from diseases that they hope could be
+cured at some point view themselves as
+species and feel that if you have to
+work on a biological system
+in order to solve the problem
+um working on non-human animals first
+makes sense right to most people sure
+but certainly there's a category of
+people that feels very strongly in the
+opposite direction sure and you know I
+think we would probably be having a very
+different conversation around animal
+research if uh we weren't you know we as
+a species we as a culture weren't just
+casually
+slaughtering millions of animals to eat
+them
+um
+every single day and so that is a
+background against which that the
+relatively minuscule number of animals
+used in research it becomes almost
+impossible to understand why someone
+would point to that ridiculously small
+number of animals used in research when
+the vast vast majority of animals that
+humans use and end their lives are are
+done for food or for fur or for fur or
+these other reasons that people you know
+have historically used animals so we in
+in that context we do animal research
+because we have to there's no other way
+around it if tomorrow
+uh laws were changed and the FDA said
+okay you can do some of this early
+experimentation in willing human
+participants that would be a very
+interesting option I think there would
+be a lot of people that would step up
+and say yes I'm willing to participate
+in early stage clinical research you
+already volunteered uh yeah
+um and I wouldn't be alone and that you
+know is a potential way that animals
+could maybe be spared uh being unwilling
+participants in this
+on that note to whatever extent possible
+I think neuralink goes
+um
+really really far much much farther than
+anyone I've ever heard of any
+organization I've ever heard of any
+anything I've ever seen to give the
+animals agency in every aspect of the
+research
+we have just an incredible team of
+people looking out for the animals and
+trying to design the experiments such
+that they're as purely opt-in as humanly
+possible
+no animal is ever compelled to
+participate in experiments beyond the
+surgery itself so if say on a given day
+our our star monkey pager doesn't want
+to play video games for Smoothie no one
+forces them to ever this is a very
+important point and I want to cue people
+to really what Matt is saying here
+um obviously the animals are being
+researched on for neural links so they
+don't get to opt in to opt out of the
+experiment right
+um but what he's saying is that they
+play these games during which neural
+signals are measured from the brain
+because they have electrodes implanted
+in their brain through a surgery that
+thankfully to the brain is painless
+right no pain receptors in the brain
+um and are playing for reward this is
+very different very different than the
+typical scenario in Laboratories around
+the world where people experiment on
+mice monkeys some kisses pigs or other
+species in which the typical Arrangement
+is to water deprive the animals we never
+do that and then have the animals work
+for their daily ration of water right
+and some people are hearing this and
+probably think wow that's barbaric and
+here I'm not trying to point fingers at
+the people doing that kind of work I
+just think it's important that people
+understand how the work is done right in
+order to motivate an animal
+to play a video game right depriving
+them of something that they yearn for is
+a very efficient way to do that we don't
+do that we they have free and full
+access to food this entire time so they
+aren't hungry they aren't thirsty the
+only thing that would motivate them is
+if they want a treat extra to their
+normal rations
+but there's there's never any
+deprivation there's never any adverse
+negative stimuli that pushes them to do
+anything I must say I'm impressed by
+that decision
+um because uh
+training animals to do tasks in
+laboratory settings is very hard and the
+reason so many researchers have
+defaulted to water deprivation and and
+having animals work for a ration of
+water is because frankly it works right
+it allows people to finish their PHD or
+their postdoc more quickly than having
+to wait around
+um and try and figure out why uh their
+monkey isn't working that day in fact
+having known a number of people who've
+done these kinds of experiments although
+we've never done them in my lab
+my monkey isn't working today is a
+common uh gripe among graduate students
+and postdocs who do this kind of work
+um and for people who work on mice okay
+so this is um uh very important
+information to get across and there's no
+Public Relation statement uh woven into
+this is just we're talking about the
+nature of the research but I think it is
+important that people are aware of this
+yeah it's one of the one of the
+underappreciated Innovations out of
+neurolink is how far the Animal Care
+team has been able to to move in the
+direction of Humane treatment of these
+guys wonderful as an animal lover myself
+I can only say wonderful
+why pigs yeah pigs are you know they're
+actually fairly commonly used in medical
+device research
+um more you know in the cardiac area
+their hearts are you know somewhat
+similar to human hearts how big are
+these pigs I've seen Little Pigs and
+I've seen big pigs yeah there's a range
+there's a bunch of different varieties
+of pig there's a bunch of different
+species that um you know you can
+optimize for different uh
+characteristics there's mini pigs
+there's
+um you know Yorkshires there's uh a lot
+of different kind of pigs that we use in
+different contexts
+when we're trying to optimize a certain
+characteristic
+so yeah the pigs are we don't
+necessarily need them to be smart or
+task performers although occasionally we
+have you know trained them to walk on a
+treadmill when we're studying how their
+limbs move for some of our spinal cord
+research
+um but we're not you know recording
+interesting say cognitive data out of
+their minds they're really just a
+biological platform with a skull that's
+close enough in size and shape to humans
+to be a valid platform to study the
+safety of the device
+unlike a monkey or a human a pig
+I don't think can reach out and hit a
+button or a lever exactly how are they
+signaling that they um saw or
+um sent to something yeah so again the
+pigs are really just a safety platform
+to say the device is safe to implant it
+doesn't you know break down or cause any
+kind of toxic reaction the monkeys are
+where we are really doing our heavy
+lifting in terms of ensuring that we're
+getting good signals out of the device
+that that what we expect to see in
+humans is validated on a functional
+level in in monkeys first
+let's talk about the skull yeah years
+ago you and I were enjoying a
+conversation about these very sorts of
+things that we're discussing today and
+he said you know the skull is actually a
+pretty lousy uh biological adaptation
+far better would be a titanium plate You
+Know spoken like a true neurosurgeon uh
+with a radio receiver implanted in his
+hand
+um but in all seriousness
+you know drilling through the skull with
+a two millimeter hole certainly don't do
+this at Home Folks
+um please don't do this but
+um that yes that's a small
+um entry site but I think most people
+cringe when they hear about that or
+think about that sure and it obviously
+has to be done by a neurosurgeon with
+all the appropriate
+um uh
+environmental conditions in place to
+limit infection
+what did you mean when you said that the
+skull is a poor adaptation in a titanium
+plate will be better and in particular
+what does that mean in reference to
+things like traumatic brain injury I
+mean are human beings unnecessarily
+vulnerable at the level of traumatic
+brain injury because our skulls are just
+not
+um hard enough
+you know maybe I'm being too harsh about
+skull the skull is uh very good at what
+it does given the tools that we are
+working with as biological organisms
+that develop in our mother's uterus the
+skull is you know usually the
+appropriate size it's one of the hardest
+things in your body
+um that said there are a couple puzzling
+vulnerabilities
+some of the thinnest bone in the skull
+is in the temporal region this is uh you
+know neurosurgeons will all know that
+I'm heading toward a feature that
+sometimes Darkly is called God's Little
+joke
+where the very thin bone of the of the
+temporal
+um part of the skull has one of the
+largest arteries that goes to the lining
+of the brain right attached to the
+inside of it and so this this bone just
+to the side of your eye tends to
+fracture if you're struck there and the
+sharp edges of that fractured bone very
+often cut an artery called the middle
+meningeal artery that leads to a big
+blood clot that crushes the brain that's
+how a lot of people with you know
+otherwise would be a relatively minor
+injury end up dying is this large blood
+clot developing from high pressure
+arterial blood that crushes the the
+brain
+and so why would you put the artery
+right on the inside of the very thin
+bone that's most likely to fracture it's
+an enduring mystery but this is probably
+the most obvious failure mode in in you
+know the design of a human skull
+otherwise you know in terms of General
+impact resistance
+I think the brain is a very hard thing
+to protect and the the architecture of
+human anatomy probably given all other
+possible architectures that can arise
+from development it's not that bad
+really
+um
+one of the interesting features in terms
+of shock absorption that hopefully
+prevents a lot of traumatic brain injury
+is the fluid sheath around the brain the
+the brain you may know is
+um it's mostly fat it floats in salt
+water in our brains so our brains are
+all floating in in salt water and so
+with rapid acceleration deceleration
+that sheath of salt water adds a
+marvelous protective cushion against
+development of
+you know bruising of the brain say or
+bleeding in the brain and so I think for
+any flaws in the design that do exist
+um
+you can imagine things being a lot worse
+and there's probably a lot fewer tbis
+than would exist if a human designer was
+taking a first crack at it
+as you describe the the thinness of this
+temporal bone and the in the presence of
+a critical artery just beneath it
+um I'm thinking about most helmets
+um and here I also want to cue up the
+fact that while whenever we hear about
+TBI or CTE or brain injury people always
+think football hockey but most traumatic
+brain injuries are things like car
+accidents or construction work right and
+it's not football and hockey for some
+reason football and hockey and boxing
+get all the attention but my colleagues
+that work on traumatic brain injury tell
+me that most of the traumatic brain
+injury they see is somebody slips at a
+party and hits their head or
+um uh you know was in a car accident or
+environmental environmental accidents of
+various kinds
+to my mind most helmets don't actually
+cover this region close to the eyes so
+is there is there also a failure of um
+helmet engineering that um you know I
+can understand why you'd want to have
+your peripheral vision out the sides of
+your eyes uh per free of your eyes but
+it seems to me if this is such critical
+real estate why why isn't it being
+better protected
+you know I'm no expert in helmets but
+um I don't think we see a lot of
+epidural hematomas and squirts injuries
+to get this kind of injury you usually
+need a really focal blunt trauma like
+the baseball bat to the head is a
+classic mechanism of injury
+that would lead to to a temporal bone
+fracture an epidural hematoma
+um with sports injuries you know you
+don't often see that especially in
+football with uh you know a a sharp
+sharper object coming in contact with
+the head it's usually another helmet
+right is the the mechanism of injury uh
+so I I I can't think off the top of my
+head of an instance of this exact injury
+type in sports
+you spent a lot of time poking around in
+brains of humans
+um and while I realize this is not your
+area of expertise you are somebody who I
+am aware you know cares about his health
+and the health of your family and I
+think generally People's Health
+um when you look out on the landscape of
+things that people
+can do and shouldn't do if their desire
+is to keep their brain healthy do any
+um any data or any particular practices
+come to mind I mean I think we've all
+heard the obvious one don't don't get a
+head injury right if you do get a head
+injury make sure it gets treated and
+don't get a second head injury right but
+those are sort of duh type
+um answers that um I'm able to give so
+I'm curious about the answers that um
+perhaps I'm not able to give yeah well
+you know the obvious ones it's one that
+you you talk about a lot
+um and I see a lot of the the smoldering
+wreckage of humanity you know in the
+operating room uh and in the emergency
+room for people that come in you know I
+work my practices in San Francisco right
+next to the tenderloin and so a lot of
+people that end up coming in from the
+tender line have been drinking just
+spectacular amounts of alcohol for a
+long time and their brains are uh you
+know very often on the scans they look
+like small walnuts inside their empty
+skull there's so much atrophy that
+happens with an alcohol soaked brain
+chronically
+that I would say that's you know Far and
+Away the most common source of brain
+damage that many of us just volunteer
+for and it's you know when you look at
+the morbidity kind of the human harm in
+aggregate that's done it's mystifying
+that that it's
+not something that we are all paranoid
+about we're
+um people think that I don't drink it
+all I'll occasionally have a drink I I
+could take it or leave it frankly if all
+the alcohol in the plant disappeared I
+wouldn't notice but I do occasionally
+have a drink maybe one per year or
+something like that but I am shocked at
+um this current state of affairs around
+alcohol consumption and advertising Etc
+when I look at the data mainly out of
+the UK brain bank which basically shows
+that for every drink that one has on a
+regular basis
+when you go from zero to one drink per
+week
+there's more brain atrophy thinning of
+the gray matter cortex you go from one
+to two more thinning you go from two to
+three and there's a near linear
+relationship between the amount that
+people are drinking and the amount of
+brain atrophy and to me it's like it's
+just sort of obvious from the these
+large-scale studies that
+um as you point out alcohol atrophy is
+the brain yeah it kills neurons right
+and I don't have any bias against
+alcohol or people that drink I know many
+of them but it does seem to me kind of
+shocking
+um that we're talking about you know the
+Resveratrol and red wine which is at you
+know infinitesimally small amounts and
+not even clear Resveratrol is good for
+us anyway by the way
+um a matter of debate I should point out
+but um so alcohol certainly alcohol and
+excess is bad for the brain sure
+um in terms of uh okay so we have head
+hits bad alcohol bad
+um you're working as you mentioned
+you're the tenderloin
+um is there any awareness that
+amphetamine use can can disrupt brain
+structure or function you know that
+that's not an area that I spent a lot of
+time researching in I you know I
+incidentally take care of people that
+have used every substance known to man
+in quantities that are you know
+spectacular but I haven't specifically
+done research in that area I'm not super
+well versed on the literature
+yeah I ask in part because
+um maybe you know a colleague or will
+come across a colleague who's working on
+this is there's just such a
+um a incredible increase in the use of
+things like Adderall Ritalin modafinil
+armodafinil which I think in small
+amounts in clinical clinically
+prescribed situations can be very
+beneficial but
+um let's be honest many people are using
+these on a chronic basis right I don't
+think we really know what it does to the
+brain aside from increasing addiction
+for those substances that's very clear
+well For Better or Worse we're
+generating a massive data set right now
+well put
+um
+I'd like to briefly go back to our
+earlier discussion about neuroplasticity
+you made an interesting statement which
+is that we are not aware of any single
+brain area that one can stimulate in
+order to invoke plasticity right it's a
+malleability of neural architecture
+years ago Mike mirzanek and colleagues
+at UCSF did some experiments where they
+stimulate nucleus basalis and paired
+that stimulation with eight kilohertz
+tone or um in some cases they could also
+stimulate a different brain area the
+ventral tegmental area which causes the
+release of dopamine and pair it with a
+tone and in it seemed in every one of
+these cases they observed
+massive plasticity
+um now I look at those data and I
+compare them to the kind of classic data
+um I think it was Carl Ashley that did
+these experiments where they would take
+animals and they'd scoop out a little
+bit of Cortex
+put the animal back into a learning
+environment and the animal would do
+pretty well if not perfectly sure so
+they scoop out a different region of
+Cortex and a different animal and by the
+end of maybe three four years of these
+kinds of lesion experiments they
+um referred to the equal potential of
+the cortex meaning they concluded that
+it didn't matter which piece of the
+cortex you took out that there was no
+one critical area so on the one hand
+you've got these experiments that say
+you know you don't really need
+a lot of the brain right and and every
+once in a while a news story will come
+out where um they'll a patient a person
+will go in for a brain scan for some
+other reason or an experiment and the
+person seems perfectly normal and
+they're like missing half their cortex
+right and then on the other hand you
+have these experiments like the
+stimulation of basalus or VTA where you
+get massive plasticity from stimulation
+in one area I was I've never been able
+to reconcile these kinds of discrepant
+findings and so I'd really like just
+your opinion on this you know what is it
+about the brain as an organ that lets it
+be both so critical at the level of
+individual neurons in circuits so so
+critical and yet at the same time
+um it's able to uh circumvent these what
+would otherwise seem like massive
+lesions and holes in itself yeah I mean
+a lot of a lot of it to reconcile those
+experiments you first account for the
+fact that they're probably in different
+species right you take out a particular
+portion of a pig or a rabbit grain a
+small amount you might not see a
+difference but a small portion of a
+human brain say the part most interested
+in coordinating speech or finger
+movement and you're going to see
+profound losses or visual cortex right
+I take out a small portion of V1 and
+you'll you'll have a visual deficit
+um and so species matters uh age matters
+if you take out half of the brain in a
+very young baby
+that baby has a reasonable chance of
+developing High a high degree of
+function by having the remaining half
+subsume some of the functions lost on
+the other side
+because they're very very young and
+their brain is still developing it's a
+it's to some degree a blank slate with
+extremely high plasticity over many
+years so that can overcome a lot of
+deficits
+um
+taking an adult
+animal's brain that isn't very well
+differentiated functionally to begin
+with you might not see those deficits so
+apparently there's a lot of redundancy
+as well right there's a lot of say
+cerebellar and spinal circuits in other
+animals that
+generate stereotyped Behavior patterns
+and might not need the brain at all to
+perform say a walking movement or some
+other sequences of motor activities so a
+lot of that depends on the experimental
+setup I would say in general adult
+humans are very vulnerable to losing
+small parts of their brains and losing
+discrete functions
+I'm going to take the liberty of asking
+a question that merges across neural
+Link in Tesla
+I could imagine that
+cars whether or not they're on autopilot
+mode or being driven by the human
+directly
+um and Society generally would benefit
+from knowing whether or not a human is
+very alert or sleepy sure
+I don't own a Tesla um
+perhaps this technology already exists
+but is there any idea that a simple
+sensor maybe even a just eyelid position
+or pupil size or head position
+could be introduced to
+a car like the Tesla or another car for
+that matter yeah and resolve a common
+problem which is that when people are
+less alert not just when people fall
+asleep but the simple drop in alertness
+that occurs when people are sleepy is my
+read of the data is responsible for
+approximately a third a third it's
+incredible of accidents between vehicles
+and then of course some percentage of
+those are going to be lethal accidents
+so in terms of preserving life this
+might seem like a minor case but it's
+actually a major case scenario yeah you
+know I have no you know special insight
+into how Tesla software works I know
+they have brilliant engineers
+um
+when I have a Tesla when I drive it it
+seems to know when I'm looking at the
+road versus not and it yells at me if
+I'm not looking at the roads how does it
+do that and what voice does it use
+there's a small camera uh up by the
+rearview mirror and I think it's a
+simple eye track my my guess here is
+that it's a simple eye tracking program
+um and so it may already be the case
+that it's implemented that it's
+detecting whether your eyes are open or
+not obviously you know it's not
+um strict it's not stringent because
+sunglasses
+um and I've I've seen Forums on the
+internet where people tape over that
+small camera so like so they can wall oh
+goodness but uh you know I think they're
+definitely making efforts to try to try
+to save lives here
+incredible I say incredible just because
+I think I'm fortunate enough to live in
+a lifetime where there were no electric
+cars when I was growing up and now
+things are moving oh so fast
+um no pun intended
+what is your wish for brain machine
+interface and brain augmentation so
+let's let's assume that the the clinical
+stuff can be worked out or maybe you
+have a a pet clinical condition that you
+just are um just yearning to see
+resolved yeah that would be fine too but
+in addition to that way you really just
+expand out let's say we can
+extend your life 200 years or we're
+thinking about the kind of world that
+your children are going to live in and
+their grandchildren will live in what do
+you think is really possible yeah with
+brain augmentation and brain machine
+interface and here please feel no bias
+whatsoever to answer in a way that
+reveals to us your
+um your incredible empathy and
+consideration of clinical conditions
+because that's how you spend your days
+is fixing patients uh and helping their
+lives be better so if it lands in that
+category great but
+um for sake of of fun and forsake of
+delight and forsake of um really getting
+us the audience to to understand what's
+really possible here please feel no
+shackles yeah uh well you know I I
+love the idea down the road and we're
+talking you know a 10-year maybe 20-year
+time frame of uh humans just getting
+control over some of the horrible ways
+that their brains go wrong right so
+I think everybody
+at this point has either known someone
+or second order known someone a friend
+of a friend who has been touched by
+addiction or depression suicide
+obesity these functions of the brain or
+malfunctions of the brain are what
+drives me these are the things that I
+want to tackle in my career you know in
+terms of my kids lifetime I'm thinking
+you know full human expansion of human
+cognition into AI full immersion in the
+internet of your cognitive abilities
+having no limitation for what you think
+um as bottlenecked by needing to read
+the Wikipedia article first to have the
+data to inform your thoughts
+having communication with anyone that
+you want to unrestricted by this you
+know flapping air past meat on your face
+it's a
+you know a means of communication that's
+ridiculously prone to being
+misunderstood it's also a tiny narrow
+bottleneck of communication where you
+know trying to send messages back and
+forth through a tiny straw and there's
+no reason that needs to necessarily be
+true it's the way things have always
+been but it isn't the way things are
+going to be in the future
+uh and I think there's a
+you know
+a million
+very sci-fi possibilities in terms of
+banding human Minds together to be even
+more potent as a as a multi-unit uh
+organism uh you know as an opt-in
+multi-brain
+uh you know these are things that are so
+far down the road I can't even directly
+see how they would be implemented but
+the technology we're working on is a
+little crack in the door that allows
+some of this stuff to even be thought
+about in a realistic way
+well to that to that point I you know
+encourage anyone who is you know excited
+about things like that you know
+especially mechanical engineers software
+Engineers robotics engineers come to the
+neuralink website and look at the jobs
+we've got we need the brightest people
+on the planet working on these the
+hardest problems uh in the world in my
+opinion and so if you want to work on
+this stuff come help us
+I have several responses and to what you
+just said
+um first off I'll get the the least
+important one out of the way which is
+that years ago I applied for a job at
+neurolink the neural link website at
+that time was incredibly sparse right it
+was just said neural link and I said if
+you're interested give us your email so
+I put my email there I got no response
+so
+um the uh they made a wise choice in um
+now uh fast forward several years I am
+um very grateful and I think very lucky
+um that you who passed through
+fortunately for me through my lab at one
+point and we had some fun Expeditions
+together in the wild uh neural
+exploration so we can talk about some
+other time as well as I'm learning from
+you as you pass through your time at
+Stanford
+um but have arrived there at neurolink
+and and I'll say that they're very lucky
+to have you and um folks like Dan Adams
+who have known for your very long time
+so uh phenomenal neurosurgeons like
+yourself neuroscientists and
+um Vision scientists like Dan and others
+it's really an incredible Mission so I
+really want to start off by saying um
+thank you to you and all your colleagues
+there I know that neurolink is really
+tip of the spear in being public facing
+with the kinds of things they're doing
+and and being so forthcoming about how
+that work is done in animals and exactly
+what they're doing
+um and that's a very brave stance to
+take yeah especially given the nature of
+the work but well that's classic Elon
+right he he doesn't keep secrets in
+public too commonly he tells you what
+he's going to do and then he does it and
+people are always amazed by that you
+know he releases the Tesla master plan
+and tells you exactly what the company
+intends to do for the next several years
+and people assume that there's some
+subterfuge that he is misdirecting but
+it's it's right out there in the open
+and I think neuraling follows in that
+path of you know we want people to know
+what we're doing we want the brightest
+people in the world to come help us we
+we want to be able to help patients we
+want
+you know the most motivated patients
+with quadriplegia to you know visit our
+patient registry uh and and sign up to
+be considered for clinical trials that
+that will happen in the future we'll put
+a link to that by the way so um maybe
+just uh the direct call could happen now
+so you uh this is for people who are
+quadriplegic or who know people who are
+quadriplegic who are interested in being
+part of this clinical trial it's a
+patient registry right now that we're
+just collecting information to see who
+might be eligible for clinical trials
+that'll happen in the future we're still
+working with the FDA to hammer out the
+details and and get their final
+permission uh to proceed with the trial
+great so please see the note in the show
+note the link excuse me in the in the
+show note captions for that yeah I want
+to thank you guys for your stance uh
+being public facing and also doing the
+incredibly hard work I also think the
+robotics aspect which you've clarified
+for me uh today is extremely Forward
+Thinking and uh absolutely critical so a
+lot of critical engineering that note
+out will Wick out into other domains of
+neurosurgery and medical technology not
+just serving neural links Mission
+directly and I really want to thank you
+uh first of all for coming here today
+and taking time out of your important
+schedule of seeing patients and doing
+brain surgery literally time away from
+your family and time away from your
+mission at neurolink briefly to uh to
+share with people what you guys are
+doing as I mentioned before there's a
+lot of Mystique around it and even
+despite the fact that neurolink has gone
+out of their way to try and erase some
+of that Mystique this to me is the
+clearest picture ever to my knowledge
+that has been given about what's going
+on there and and the the stated and the
+real Mission and what's going on at the
+level of of nuts and bolts and and guts
+and brains and this kind of thing and I
+really just want to thank you also for
+for being you which is uh perhaps sounds
+like a a kind of an odd um thing to hear
+but
+I think as made apparent by the device
+implanted in your hand you don't just
+um do this for a job you live and
+breathe and embody truly embody this
+stuff around the nervous system and
+trying to figure out how to fix it how
+to make it better and you live and
+breathe it and I know your deep love for
+it so I want to thank you for um not
+just the brains that you put into it and
+the energy you put into it but also for
+the the heart that you put into it
+thanks for that Andrew I appreciate that
+we we just want to help people we want
+to make things better well
+I know that to be true knowing you and
+um thank you again for coming here today
+and I look forward to another round of
+discussion and um whenever the time
+happens to be when these incredible
+technologies have um spelled out to the
+next uh major Milestone thank you thank
+you for joining me for today's
+discussion with Dr Matthew McDougall all
+about the human brain and how it
+functions how it breaks down and the
+incredible efforts that are being
+carried out at neurolink in order to
+overcome diseases of brain and nervous
+system function and to augment how the
+human brain works if you'd like to learn
+more about Dr mcdougall's work and the
+specific work being done at neurolink
+please see the links that we've provided
+in the show note captions if you're
+learning from and or enjoying this
+podcast please subscribe to our YouTube
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+[Music]
\ No newline at end of file