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+welcome to the huberman Lab podcast
+where we discuss science and
+science-based tools for everyday
+[Music]
+life I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a
+professor of neurobiology and
+Opthalmology at Stanford School of
+Medicine my guest today is Dr Adam Grant
+Adam Grant is a professor of
+organizational psychology at the Wharton
+School at University of Pennsylvania he
+has authored five bestselling books and
+most recently has authored a new book
+entitled hidden potential he received
+his bachelor's degree from Harvard
+University and his Doctorate from the
+University of Michigan today we discuss
+peer-reviewed studies and tools based on
+the data from those studies that can
+enable people to meet their goals and
+overcome significant challenges
+including how to overcome
+procrastination as well as how to see
+around or through blind spots as well as
+how to overcome sticking points in
+motivation and creativity we also
+discuss the research on and practical
+tools related to the underpinnings of
+performance in any endeavor including
+how to increase one's confidence and how
+to have a persistent growth mindset by
+the end of today's episode it will be
+clear to you that Dr Adam Grant has an
+absolutely spectacular depth and breadth
+of knowledge and that knowledge is both
+practical it is based on peer-reviewed
+research and he conveys those tools with
+the utmost Clarity and generosity indeed
+by the end of today's episode you will
+have more than a dozen new tools never
+discussed before on the hubman Lab
+podcast that you can apply in your
+academic Endeavors in athletic Endeavors
+in Creative Endeavors in fact in any
+area of life before we begin I'd like to
+emphasize that this podcast is separate
+from my teaching and research roles at
+Stanford it is however part of my desire
+and effort to bring zero cost to
+Consumer information about science and
+science related tools to the general
+public in keeping with that theme I'd
+like to thank the sponsors of today's
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+huberman today's episode is also brought
+To Us by levels levels is a program that
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+glucose monitor one of the most
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+today's episode is also brought To Us by
+waking up waking up is a meditation app
+that includes hundreds of meditation
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+sessions and n SDR non-sleep deep breast
+protocols I started using the waking up
+app a few years ago because even though
+I've been doing regular meditation since
+my teens and I started doing Yoga Nidra
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+do I also love that the waking up app
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+huberman and access a free 30-day trial
+again that's waking up.com huberman to
+access a free 30-day trial and now for
+my discussion with Dr Adam Grant Adam
+welcome excited to be here very very
+excited to have you here uh your career
+both public facing and academic career
+have covered an enormous range of topics
+so we have a lot to cover look who's
+talking um and anytime uh two professors
+sit down or even one Professor um says
+we have a lot to cover I think everyone
+listening braces themselves like oh no
+but these topics uh I assure everyone
+are of the utmost interest and you cover
+them in such both fabulous detail and
+you make it very clear so I'm really
+looking forward to this I'd like to
+start off by talking about something
+that I'm obsessed by and I know a lot of
+people are obsessed with and struggle
+with and I know you also have a recent
+publication on this topic which is
+procrastination I am a bit of a
+procrastinator but a different way of
+stating that is that I love deadlines I
+learned in college that I love love love
+deadlines because it seems to harness my
+focus and my attention I like just
+enough I guess you call it anxiety or
+autonomic arousal for the you know
+Neuroscience or physiology oriented
+folks for me just brings
+about a total elimination of all of the
+distractors and it seems to both slow
+and accelerate my perception of
+time and it seems to bring out my best
+to have deadlines but I would prefer to
+not have to procrastinate in order to
+self-impose deadlines I prefer that
+other people impose those deadlines in
+fact so what do we know about
+procrastination why do some people
+complete things well in advance why do
+other people procrastinate is it that
+they're seeking deadlines as I believe I
+am and
+interestingly and sort of alluding to
+this recent paper
+viewers what is the relationship between
+procrastination and creativity I feel
+like we should just deal with all that
+later let's put it off no good one by
+the way there's extra credit for science
+funds on here
+so done one of the best articles on
+procrastination ever written was titled
+at last my article on procrastination
+fantastic I love it yeah just made me
+smile um so I think the the the basic
+question I think to start with is why do
+we procrastinate and I I thought I was
+immune actually when I came into this
+topic uh I was the the person who
+annoyed my college roommates by
+finishing my thesis a couple months
+early uh I found out there was a term
+for me I'm a precrastinator uh so the
+you know the focus and the pressure that
+you get from a deadline I get that the
+moment the project starts um and
+sometimes months or years in advance and
+so I was really proud of finishing
+everything early and then I discovered
+there are things that I procrastinate on
+too uh which was a little bit
+disappointing are you willing to share
+what some of those I am uh so I um I
+procrastinate on anything that's
+administrative uh so I'm right there
+with you you want to get time on my
+calendar it could take me weeks to
+respond you asked me a question about
+social science I will be back to you in
+a minute um I procrastinate on grading
+takes me forever uh I basically put off
+a whole bunch of tasks that I thought
+had nothing in common it turns out that
+I procrastinate when I'm bored like
+boredom is I guess it's probably my most
+hated emotion and so I will do anything
+to avoid a boring task and I think this
+goes to why people procrastinate which
+is a lot of people think it's laziness
+or you're not disciplined enough but
+actually the the research on this is
+really clear that you're not avoiding
+work when you procrastinate in fact a
+lot of our
+procrastination is is focused on doing
+things that involve a lot of energy
+you've seen people probably clean their
+entire houses when they're putting off a
+task um so it's it's not that you're
+being lazy it's that you're avoiding
+negative emotions that a task stirs up
+so for me it's boredom uh for a lot of
+people it's fear or anxiety um I don't
+know if I can pull this off I have an
+extreme case of impostor syndrome in
+this role um the the challenge in front
+of me is too daunting um for some people
+it's confusion I haven't figured it out
+yet and so I can't work on this because
+I I feel like I'm stuck um so what's I
+guess the big question for you then
+Andrew is what's what's the emotion that
+causes you to
+procrastinate you know it's hard for me
+to identify the stick here I think of it
+more as the carrot that comes with
+deadlines and again I I don't consider
+myself a procrastinator per se I just
+really love deadlines and
+procrastination is a terrific way to
+simulate the deadline uh so for me so
+you wait so you delay starting or
+finishing a task in order to have a a
+sense of time pressure that's right it
+builds a certain amount of internal
+arousal in me to know okay I've got 72
+hours to complete something and it's now
+game time I like the game time before
+the game time before a podcast I'll put
+in anywhere from you know several days
+to weeks or even months in preparation
+so it's really elastic depending on the
+topic but when it came to exams in
+school or if it comes to writing
+deadlines um I consider the the shipping
+of the product or the presentation of
+the live event that I happened to be
+doing as the second game or event the
+first event is the pressure and the
+excitement of getting into the groove of
+doing Focus work because for me that's
+such a drug I mean it feels like all
+having all the systems of my brain and
+body oriented towards one specific thing
+is just sheer Bliss for me so it sounds
+like then you're you're actually not a a
+chronic procrastinator thank you I've
+never that's never been uh the way I've
+viewed myself but now I'll I'll I'll
+take that it's a strategy for you it is
+a strategy that's right and ient you
+know I was fairly Wayward youth barely
+finished high school Etc so by time I
+got serious about school which was my
+second year of
+University when deadlines were presented
+like there's an exam there's a midterm
+exam on a given date that was exciting
+to me that was exciting I was like okay
+that's the big thing that's my
+opportunity to to prove myself to myself
+because I was really coming from behind
+and then the opportunity to or I should
+say the the feeling of dropping into
+that Groove like this is the exciting
+part is the preparation you know
+likewise with podcasting for our solo
+podcast I love the research as much as I
+love presenting the material maybe more
+maybe more right likewise for University
+lectures or for traveling and giving
+seminars as a traditional academic I'm
+sure you're familiar with that right
+it's it's the preparation is where you
+realize it's almost like I I think of it
+as somebody like like a minor in a mine
+and just finding a gem and of course
+there then there are all the thoughts of
+what you can do with that later and
+you're going to show people it has a
+certain value to the world Etc but but
+it's the the searching and finding those
+G that is like even as I talk about it I
+feel like my body's going to float out
+of the chair a little bit I I have the
+same experience it's the it's the the
+sort of the Unleashed curiosity and then
+the rush of Discovery and by the time
+you're teaching it or explaining it like
+but I already know this like I'm not
+learning anything anymore and yes I'm
+excited to share it and I hope it's
+helpful to other people so you know I
+think as as you talk about what your
+process looks like I don't even think
+what you do qualifies as procrastination
+technically seem to getting better and
+better I me serious if if you think
+about how procrastination is is defined
+it's it's delaying despite an expected
+cost and you don't think there's a cost
+you actually see a benefit that's right
+and I've tried starting that's not
+procrastination that's just delay yeah
+I've tried starting things earlier and
+um and I should say that my process
+often begins much earlier than the
+physical process like if I was being
+observed in an experiment be okay you
+know Andrew's finally sitting down to
+write this book chapter or you know
+finally sitting down to research some
+papers for an episode but I'm thinking
+about it all the time I mean much to the
+dismay of people in my life you know I'm
+I'm I'm constantly thinking about these
+things I mean walking to take out the
+recycle I'll have ideas and then I'll
+write them down I constantly am writing
+things down voice memos into my phone I
+have a method of capture where I
+basically try and just grab everything
+and then filter out what's useful do you
+have a process like that for for
+gleaning ideas a little bit I do now so
+um when when G Shen and I started this
+research on procrastination she had she
+had come to me she was a very creative
+doctoral student and she said I have my
+best ideas when I'm
+procrastinating and it was it was one of
+those moments where I didn't believe her
+but I thought it was an interesting
+enough idea that it was worth exploring
+and I said show me get let's get some
+data let's see if we can we can test
+this and she ended up um Gathering data
+in a Korean company where she surveyed
+people on how often they procrastinate
+and then got their supervisors to rate
+their creativity
+and sure enough found that people who
+procrastinate sometimes were rated as
+more creative than people who rarely do
+like me the
+procrastinators and I remember asking
+her what about the chronic
+procrastinators and she's like I don't
+know they never filled out my
+survey yeah as I recall from that paper
+there's inverted u-shaped function with
+procrastination on the vertical axis and
+and um uh and creativity on the
+horizontal axis flipped sorry okay so
+um explain to me then the relationship
+between procrastination and creativity
+Yeah so basically the the peak of
+creativity is in the middle of
+procrastination ah okay got it and yeah
+there's a there's an upside down U curve
+there and so then I thought this was
+fascinating so then you know we go into
+the lab to say can we replicate this can
+we control it in an experiment and the
+hardest part of that was how do you
+randomly assign people to procrastinate
+like to my knowledge never been done
+before and we eventually figured out
+that we could give people a bunch of
+task to do and then tempt them with
+highly entertaining YouTube videos uh
+that were sort of placed on their screen
+and we put different numbers of YouTube
+videos there so that uh you know if
+there's only one you're not tempted to
+procrastinate much if there are four
+you're probably going to get sucked into
+a little bit of a YouTube spiral if
+there are eight uh you might be putting
+off the test that's much less exciting
+than than you know watching Jimmy
+Kimble's Mean Tweets for example and
+this was done in a fairly naturalistic
+environment for these people are people
+are on a a computer they're they're
+asked to you know to solve some creative
+problems that look pretty similar to
+what you might do in your job and then
+we're going to score your creativity
+later and um it turned out that the
+people who were attempted to
+procrastinate moderately um ended up
+generating the most creative ideas so
+why is that um there are a couple things
+that happen and you have to look at both
+sides of the curve so what's wrong with
+the procrastinators and also what
+happens to the the extreme
+procrastinators um and in both cases
+what happens is um you end up with a
+little bit of tunnel vision so um when I
+dive right into a task I'm stuck with my
+first ideas and I don't wait long enough
+to incubate and get my best ideas I'm
+less likely to reframe the problem I'm
+less likely to access remote knowledge
+because I'm just I'm just diving right
+in and meanwhile The Chronic
+procrastinators um end up in the same
+boat because they don't get started
+until the last minute and so they have
+to rush ahead with the easiest idea to
+implement as opposed to really
+developing the most novel idea and
+meanwhile the the people in the middle
+who you know are starting to feel that
+pressure of of like wow I you know I
+kind of Spun my wheels for 10 minutes
+watching a bunch of YouTube videos I'm
+running out of time for this task they
+still have enough time to work on the
+ideas that were active in the back of
+their minds and and that gives them a
+shot at more novel ideas so I've tried
+to adopt this to answer your question
+I've tried to adopt this as my process
+now to say I will still dive into a
+project ahead of schedule but I will not
+commit to an idea until I've let it
+incubate for a few weeks and I'm working
+on other things whereas an earlier
+version of me like when I'd sit down to
+write a book um as soon as I had the
+book idea I would start writing on day
+one now I have the idea I file it away
+and I give myself at least a month
+before I begin drafting um and I think
+it feels less productive but it's far
+more
+creative what are your thoughts about
+some of what you described being an
+unconscious way of seeding the mind and
+the unconscious with an idea so for
+instance uh let's take a a School
+academic scenario where um students get
+an assignment and the assignment is
+contained within a folder and it just
+says assignment okay and it's a doe on a
+particular date and it says do on that
+particular date and they're given the
+folder but they have no sense of what
+the assignment is you can imagine one
+category of procrastinator that will
+take that thing and put it down and
+avoid looking at it entirely versus
+another category of procrastinator that
+will Flip Flip it open and take a look
+at okay this is going to be an essay on
+you know um I don't know something about
+economic theory in the late
+1700s close it and then
+procrastinate there is an idea which I
+frankly I subscribe to a little bit um
+because we recently did this series on
+Mental Health not Mental Illness but
+mental health with Dr Paul kti where he
+talked extensively about the unconscious
+and how the unconscious mind is always
+working with ideas things that we are
+concerned about performance these sorts
+of things even if we're not aware of
+them um what what are your thoughts
+about the creativity that seeded by
+slight procrastination being related to
+actually knowing what you're
+procrastinating on specifically I I
+think it turns out to be I don't want to
+say essential but
+critical so one of the things we found
+is in order for moderate procrastination
+to fuel creativity you have to be
+intrinsically motivated by the thing
+you're procrastinating on interesting
+and so what what happens is if if you if
+you're bored for example by the topic
+you're not going to open the folder
+you're not going to start thinking about
+it at all it's not going to begin you're
+not going to do any subconscious
+processing you're not going to have any
+unexpected connections um between this
+topic and something else you've learned
+uh learned about or or been curious
+about if you're interested in the
+problem then when you put it off you're
+much more likely to still keep it active
+in the back of your mind and that's when
+when you begin to to see you know I I
+imagine you could explain the biology of
+this um I I imagine for example there's
+um there's probably um there are
+probably more neural networks um that
+are connecting um you probably get you
+get access to ideas that previously
+would have been sort of separate nodes
+and so I think that you you want to know
+what the topic is right you don't want
+to just see the blank assignment but you
+also have to find a reason that this is
+exciting to you um otherwise you're
+going to avoid it as opposed to letting
+it
+percolate that brings us to the topic of
+intrinsic motivation um and I'd like to
+link that up with the topic of
+performance so when I was in university
+uh there were many topics that I was
+excited to learn about some more than
+others of course um but occasionally I'd
+be in a class or I'd get an assignment
+that frankly i' had minimal interest in
+never zero but minimal interest and as a
+way of dealing with that I embarked on a
+process of literally lying to myself and
+just telling myself okay I'm super
+interested in reading this and I'm going
+to force myself to be interested in
+reading it and lo and behold I would
+start falling in love with certain
+things maybe it was it was even the um
+you know the arrival of a word that I
+didn't recognize and then I would go
+look it up and I knew I was studying for
+the gr at that time so I file that away
+I still have my notebooks of all the
+vocabulary words that I learned in the
+course of my university courses that
+frankly made the verbal portion of the
+GRE pretty easy you know which if you
+ever try and study for that at the end
+it's pretty tough to commit all those
+new words to uh to memory and context so
+I could find little hooks and and
+through those hooks I could kind of r it
+my way into a larger interest and then
+lo and behold I'm really interested in
+Greek mythology you know or that
+actually like that one at first but um I
+didn't have to trick myself but you know
+maybe we could spend a little bit of
+time talking about what is true
+intrinsic
+motivation is it always
+reflexive uh can we make ourselves
+intrinsically motivated about us given
+topic or scenario or group of people uh
+and then let's talk about how intrinsic
+motivation links to Performance because
+there's a rich literature on this as I
+recall and I remember you know the
+Stanford study of rewarding kids for
+things they were already motivated to do
+maybe we could touch on that a little
+bit and remind people who haven't heard
+about it but I'm fascinated by this
+topic because I feel like so much of
+life is about doing things that
+initially we don't feel that excited to
+do yeah and yet succeeding in life you
+know until you can afford to offload
+your uh administrative work to somebody
+else which hopefully by by now you have
+find a way to get it done right uh this
+is fun Al to being a functional human
+being frankly not just successful in air
+quotes but functional we got to do stuff
+that we don't enjoy doing yeah so I
+think we we can talk about a couple
+different ways to nurture Inns of
+motivation we could think about how the
+task itself is designed we could think
+about reward systems and then we could
+think about also the things we say to
+ourselves and others which I hope are
+not lies but rather uh persuasive
+attempts uh let's let's start on that
+one actually I I don't know a lot of
+people who are that good at deliberate
+self-deception well well I like to think
+it was only around a particular set of
+uh goal motivated Pursuits um but at
+that time for me also was survival as I
+mentioned I didn't do well in high
+school I really wanted to perform well
+in University but I knew that working
+just for the grade wasn't going to carry
+me it was it it felt
+catabolic um and I don't know maybe I at
+that age I was still in the window of
+heightened neuroplasticity we know it
+never closes but um but I think I also
+fell in love with the process of
+learning how to do what I just described
+yeah so I think for most people the best
+method of self-persuasion is actually to
+convince somebody else uh so I'm
+thinking of Elliot Aronson's classic
+research on cognitive dissonance where
+he would he would ask you to go and tell
+somebody else a task you hated is really
+interesting and if he paid you a lot to
+do it you still hated the task because
+you had a justification like I got 20
+bucks to you know to kind of FIB a
+little bit about this task um you know
+the task is bad but I did it for the for
+the payment when you paid you $1 to go
+and tell somebody that you loved a task
+that you didn't you ended up liking it
+more wow and maybe I shouldn't be
+surpris but maybe you should tell me why
+I shouldn't be surprised because I hope
+people got what you just said very
+clearly and if they didn't if you don't
+like doing something going and reporting
+to somebody else how great that thing is
+so lying about it to somebody else um is
+one way to increase the degree to which
+you like or enjoy that behavior or topic
+and if you're paid $20 to go lie to
+somebody in the positive
+direction so against your true belief
+it's less effective in shifting your
+underlying AFF effect about that thing
+your emotions than if you're paid less
+correct yeah exactly now I think
+obviously in the experiment lying was an
+easy way to to show the effect but in
+real life I think the way that you want
+to apply this is to say all right I've
+got to find something about this task
+that's interesting to me and then in the
+process of explaining it to somebody
+else I'm going to convince myself
+because I'm hearing the argument from
+somebody I already like and
+trust and I've also chosen I've chosen
+the the reasons that I find compelling
+as opposed to hearing somebody else's
+reasons and so I think this this goes to
+the point that you were making which is
+if if you're trying to to find a hook to
+make a topic intriguing um you've got to
+figure out okay what is it that would
+make this fascinating to me and you in a
+lot of cases what you're looking for is
+a curiosity Gap um I I think social
+scientists like to talk about curiosity
+as an itch that you have to scratch um
+so there's something you want to know
+and you don't know it yet so I would say
+I I tell my students often like take
+your least favorite class and find a
+mystery or a puzzle like something that
+you you just do not know the answer to
+um like I actually I've talked with our
+kids about this like what what really
+happened to King tutd
+do you know can you get to the bottom of
+that and all of a sudden you're like I
+wonder I need to Google it and then I
+need to see if Wikipedia has credible
+information on this and the more you
+learn about that the more intriguing it
+becomes and I think that's that's the
+beginning of the process of of finding
+intrinsic motivation I see
+so inherent in your answer is the idea
+that there's something wired into our
+neural circuits and therefore
+psychology that Curiosity as a verb
+the act of being curious and seeking
+information where well and I should say
+I Define curiosity and I hopefully
+you'll disagree with me or agree either
+way it doesn't matter as long as we can
+get a bit deeper understanding I Define
+curiosity as a desire to find something
+out where you are not attached to a
+particular outcome yes is that right
+yeah I I in Psychology is typically
+defined as just wanting to know and that
+means you're driven by the question not
+a particular answer which is exactly
+what you're driving at okay great so and
+I think it was Dorothy par that said um
+the cure for boredom is curiosity there
+is no cure for curiosity as there there
+shouldn't be a cure for curiosity right
+so um and by the way folks we don't know
+what neural circuits subserve curiosity
+in the brain it's it's got to be a
+distributed Network there's no brain
+area for curiosity but it's got to be
+linked up with the reward systems of
+dopamine Etc in some way because when
+one discovers something new that
+satisfies some curiosity it's clearly
+there's a there's a internal reward W
+there okay let me back up so if your
+child or an adult
+is dreading working exploring a topic or
+going about an assignment of any kind um
+you will give them a question that they
+then need to resolve what if the the
+assignment is like rake the leaves off
+the front lawn do you uh do you say you
+know um count the leaves or I mean how
+does one get um past the sort of um
+procrastination and and generate some
+intrinsic motivation for things that one
+dreads where it's unlikely that they're
+going to discover some knowledge that's
+exceedingly useful for the for future
+you always start with with okay what's
+what's the first experiment I can run
+find the most interesting looking leaf
+for your favorite leaf and then that
+that lasts for about two minutes and
+okay now what we still have a lot of
+leaves there right I think not all tasks
+can be made intrinsically motivating to
+everyone and so when when intrinsic
+motivation is difficult to find what you
+want to substitute with is um is a sense
+of purpose um maybe a better way to say
+that is um when the process is not
+interesting to you um you need to find a
+meaningful outcome so there's uh there's
+some research on um on the boring but
+important effect where kids who have a
+purpose for learning um this goes
+through high school and think you know
+this is not just interesting to me but
+I'm going to be able to use this
+knowledge to um to help other people one
+day um they they're more persistent in
+their studying they end up getting
+better grades and so I think you know
+intrinsic motivation is often driven by
+car I it about the how um a sense of
+purpose comes from really thinking hard
+about the why why does this matter and
+so I'd say with the you know the ranking
+leaves let's try to connect that task to
+something else that you care about um
+are you going to um you know pleasantly
+surprise your parents when they get home
+um are you going to um you know have a
+place to play soccer that you didn't
+before um and I think then the you know
+the the process of of getting to that I
+guess what I'd say is if you're trying
+to motivate yourself um it's a little
+bit harder than if you're trying to
+motivate somebody else on this um if I
+was going to motivate somebody else I
+would take a a page out of the
+motivational interviewing Playbook where
+I would say Okay Andrew actually let's
+play this out for a second so you're G
+to rake a pile of leaves it's a two-hour
+task 0o to 10 how excited are you about
+that a three three really I'm surprised
+I I thought you were gonna say zero or
+one why is it not lower uh I like any
+sort of physical activity because it
+allows me to move and I just like moving
+my body
+there we go okay so you just identified
+a potential source of purpose for that
+activity um and I'm I don't have a I
+don't have a vested interest in
+convincing you to do this task I am
+genuinely curious about what would
+motivate you to want to do it and as you
+start to articulate it boom self-
+persuasion kicks
+in love it um I'm going to start using
+these uh these approaches um try it at
+your own risk as we all know quality
+nutrition influences of course our
+physical health but also our mental
+health and our cognitive functioning our
+memory our ability to learn new things
+and to focus and we know that one of the
+most important features of highquality
+nutrition is making sure that we get
+enough vitamins and minerals from
+highquality unprocessed or minimally
+processed sources as well as enough
+probiotics and prebiotics and fiber to
+support basically all the cellular
+functions in our body including the gut
+microbiome now I like most everybody try
+to get optimal nutrition from Whole
+Foods ideally mostly from minimally
+processed processed or nonprocessed
+Foods however one of the challenges that
+I and so many other people face is
+getting enough servings of highquality
+fruits and vegetables per day as well as
+fiber and probiotics that often
+accompany those fruits and vegetables
+that's why way back in 2012 long before
+I ever had a podcast I started drinking
+ag1 and so I'm delighted that ag1 is
+sponsoring the hubman Lab podcast the
+reason I started taking ag1 and the
+reason I still drink ag1 once or twice a
+day is that it provides all of my
+foundational nutritional needs that is
+it provides insurance that I get the
+proper amounts of those vitamins
+minerals probiotics and fiber to ensure
+optimal mental health physical health
+and performance if you'd like to try ag1
+you can go to drink a1.com huberman to
+claim a special offer they're giving
+away five free travel packs plus a year
+supply of vitamin D3 K2 again that's
+drink a1.com huberman to claim that
+special offer I have a question about
+extrinsic motivation
+so
+if we grow up being incentivized by
+extrinsic things you know um you'll get
+your allowance if you blank um you can
+spend the money that you make and you
+know on your paper route doing the
+things you really want to
+do is there any value in those kinds of
+learning based incentives um for kids
+and for adults because I mean that's the
+real world as well I know I know plenty
+of people I have family members that
+only work for a paycheck and they're
+pretty okay because they like spending
+their paycheck probably more than I you
+know I'm not intrinsically attached to
+money I mean I certainly have needs in
+in life but but I don't enjoy spending
+money for the sake of spending it or for
+gaining more possessions but I know
+people that do and I certainly don't
+judge um are they somehow existing in a
+um in a diminished landscape of
+happiness or or because they seem pretty
+happy to me uh but they seem to have
+also worked out this relationship they
+do certain things to get the extrinsic
+rewards and they really enjoy what they
+can do with those extrinsic rewards
+there's a so there's a huge body of
+evidence on what are the effects of
+extrinsic rewards on motivation and
+performance and I think the latest
+conclusions if you look at the the
+latest met analyses so you know huge
+study of studies trying to accumulate
+like what's the average effect of adding
+a financial incentive to a task that
+wasn't incentivized before or to a job
+where you know you were paid salary and
+now we're going to give incentive
+compensation um there is a boost so in
+general um people are are more
+productive when they're incentivized for
+their output but um these incentives are
+better for uh for motivating quantity
+than quality so you see people get more
+done but they're not necessarily more
+careful or more thorough are they less
+careful and less thorough no um actually
+they there's still positive effects on
+average they're just weaker um and of
+course you could then start to say well
+how do I incentivize you know being fast
+and
+careful um but I think where where we do
+have to be really cautious is um there's
+an undermining effect of extrinsic
+rewards on intrinsic motivation and you
+were you were alluding to this earlier
+dating back to the early 70s where we
+know that if we take an interesting task
+and then we pay you for it you might
+conclude that you're only doing it for
+the outcome and you lose interest in the
+task so the the classic demonstration
+Mark leer and colleagues is kids playing
+video games and they're um they're
+playing them because they're fun and
+then you start to add in an incentive
+and then when the incentive is taken
+away they don't want to play anymore
+because the meaning of the task has
+changed and now I'm doing it because I
+want to get something out of it as
+opposed to I love the
+process I think that that um that
+phenomenon um does not have to exist so
+we know for example at work um if
+managers uh as long as they give people
+autonomy um they don't present the
+rewards in a controlling way um so
+instead of saying you know Andrew in
+order to earn this you need to do the
+following work uh if they say hey look
+you know I'd really love it if you you
+know if you would deliver the following
+um and in order to make that worth your
+while I'm offering this incentive people
+react very differently when they have a
+sense of choice and control um so I
+think that that's I guess the starting
+point in the presence of autonomy I
+don't I don't think there's a major
+downside of of extrinsic rewards I think
+you also have to be careful that um yeah
+I guess that you're not over justifying
+the task in other words you're not um
+you're you're not swamping people's
+intrinsic reason for doing it but you're
+adding a reason to try it so actually um
+if we if we go to a different domain for
+a second so um look at kids who don't
+want to eat their vegetables externs
+incentives are very effective to get
+kids to try vegetables for the first
+time but then the hope is that they
+discover a vegetable or two that they
+don't mind and then they find reasons to
+keep doing it um and I think that that's
+how I want a lot of rewards to work I
+don't think that rewards should be
+carrots that we dangle to try to control
+people's behavior I think they should be
+symbols of how much we appreciate and
+value a particular behavior and if you
+frame them that way it's a lot easier
+for people to say yeah you know what I'm
+that that reward is something that I
+really want but I'm I'm not only doing
+the task for that reward yeah that that
+you basically answered the question I
+was going to ask which is and you know
+at risk of sounding new Agy um but we
+are sitting in California um I could
+imagine that when one is focused on the
+extrinsic rewards so a physical task or
+a cognitive task for an extrinsic reward
+if I'm focusing on the exic reward I'm
+also air quotes again not present right
+I'm I'm thinking about the outcome I'm
+not thinking about process and I think
+there's perhaps you can flesh out some
+of what this is exactly but I think
+there's a fairly extensive um data to
+support the idea that when we are
+physically and mentally present to the
+task that we're going to perform better
+and presumably our our um intrinsic
+liking of that task or performing that
+task increases as well is that true yeah
+I think so I think so if we want to
+break down the mechanisms for why
+intrinsic motivation is useful for for
+performance um one you touched on
+earlier it's focus of attention um
+you're it's much easier to find flow
+when you're intrinsically motivated you
+get into that state of deep absorption
+where uh time melts away so you
+mentioned you know sort of either
+speeding up or slowing down your your
+sense of time you forget where you are
+sometimes you even lose track of your
+identity and you're just you're just
+merged into the task uh and so that that
+that concentration is helpful there's
+also a greater persistence effect that
+when you enjoy what you're doing you're
+less likely to give up in the face of
+obstacles uh you're more likely to think
+about it when you're not doing the task
+and come up with great ideas and so um
+you know I think there's there's a
+working harder there's a working longer
+there's a working smarter and there's
+also a thinking more clearly
+effect this is a uh brief but related
+tangent one of the things that I've
+found incredibly difficult in recent
+years is that um you know most of my
+life really since I was a small kid I
+was forging for things and then you know
+I used to give lectures on Monday in
+class if they let me until they
+eventually stopped me about the stuff I
+was reading about all weekend so got an
+early start in the the professorial um
+front but now if I'm reading something
+and I discover a what I think is a
+really valuable piece of information or
+a tool or a protocol I'm like wow this
+is really cool these findings are oh so
+cool there's a problem which is that now
+I have an opportunity to cast that out
+to the world through social media we all
+do this could be sorry you're on social
+media um from time to time I do you're
+all over my feet uh you and and I both
+do our own social media by the way which
+I really appreciate I think one can
+always detect if if someone else is
+handling someone's Social Media so yes
+I'm on soci media and and I love that I
+have the opportunity to both um send out
+ideas and information and also receive
+feedback I really love the comment
+section um and always encourage comments
+I I learn from it uh frankly love is a
+strong word I learn from it you know and
+and you and I were weaned in the
+academic culture where frankly the the
+kind of hazing that that one receives in
+academic culture is very different than
+the kind of hazing that one receives on
+social media but um let's just say that
+if you come up through Academia you
+develop a pretty thick skin um I agree I
+I do have to say though that there there
+was a part of me that was really
+surprised when I started posting on
+social that I love I love constructive
+criticism I was unprepared for the
+number of people who will knee-jerk
+criticize a study without even looking
+at whether the methods are rigorous
+right I'm like come on if I posted this
+surely it's at least worth considering
+the possibility that there's strong
+evidence behind it right well that's
+where a uh a um a brief uh I want to
+call it a r but a response of you know
+um you know uh clearly you should read
+the study further because I think you'll
+be satisfied with the answer or
+something I don't know um but I agree it
+it can be a little bit harsh in there
+sometimes but you know the social media
+uh channels are I think have you know
+they have it's a double-edged blade um
+they obviously have their issues but um
+can be a wonderful opportunity to share
+information and share it quickly the
+problem is that it takes me out of what
+I was doing initially which was learning
+searching for those gems with with which
+to share later and I think there's a
+broader landscape to consider this where
+people for instance are uh I was at the
+beach yesterday it was just absolutely
+spectacular day at the beach uh
+especially for this time of year and
+everyone was taking pictures of that
+experience on their phone and probably
+sharing that experience either social
+media or with friends um this is very
+different than taking a photograph and
+not seeing that photograph until later
+or not sending it out and so there are
+now near infinite number of
+circumstances where we are taken out of
+the rewarding experience I should
+rephrase that we are taking ourselves
+out of the rewarding experience and
+focusing on a different rewarding
+experience that I think by definition is
+an extrinsic reward so we are taking
+ourselves out of our intrinsically
+rewarding experiences and activating
+these extrinsic rewards and do you think
+in any way that's undermining our
+experience of things that we really
+enjoy um again not to demonize social
+media or these channels but um I've
+personally found it difficult to refrain
+from sharing this knowledge I'm so
+excited to share but I deliberately
+delay and there's a lot I have a deep
+list of folders full of things that I
+want to post but I'm just doing it you
+know systematically over time because I
+really fight the temptation to to do
+this mostly because I want to continue
+to enjoy this learning process and this
+seeking process so much yeah I I feel
+the same the same um I feel torn I think
+I think it was eie white who said uh I I
+rise in the morning Torn Between the
+desire to enjoy the world and the desire
+to improve the world and this makes it
+difficult to plan the day and I I I feel
+that every day I think I mean I I even I
+felt it this morning I was like okay
+it's time to it's time to leave to to
+come to the the humman podcast I'm like
+wait but I I I didn't hit my minimum
+sunlight viewing so what what do I do do
+I show up on time for you or do I meet
+your criteria the the um the explanation
+I was getting my morning sunlight and
+therefore I'm X number of minutes or
+even hours late would have been
+completely fine I figured as much that's
+that's a built-in acceptable excuse with
+you I think I mean I think everybody
+experiences a version of this and um
+it's definitely gotten worse with uh
+with social media and with smartphones
+um I think so one of the the most
+startling data points for me was um
+Gloria Mark first put this on my radar
+uh before covid the average person was
+checking email 72 times a day
+how do you ever concentrate for more
+than a couple minutes if you're self-
+interrupting that often you can't um
+Brigid Shelty has a great term for this
+she she calls it time confetti and she
+says we're taking these meaningful
+blocks of time and we're slicing them up
+into these like tiny little dots of
+confetti and uh not only can we not
+accomplish anything uh we're also
+eroding our own sense of Joy um because
+it's really hard to enjoy the you know
+the 30- second blip of time that you get
+on a task um and I think we know a lot
+more about the existence of these
+problems than than how to solve them but
+one thing we do know is blocking out un
+interrupted time is Meaningful uh
+there's a great Leslie Perlo experiment
+where she takes engineers and she has
+them uh she sets a quiet time policy no
+interruptions Tuesday Thursday Friday
+before noon 65% above average
+productivity could you repeat the um the
+protocol again yeah so quiet time there
+are a couple iterations of it but I
+think the most effective one was
+Thursday Friday no meetings no
+interruptions no slack no emails before
+noon and during those periods of no
+interruptions one could tend to whatever
+their primary purpose is at work yeah so
+for me it might be podcasting obviously
+I don't have my phone in here and never
+do um but it doesn't mean no interaction
+with anyone else it just means focusing
+on the major task the task exactly and
+you come in with a clear sense of
+priority and purpose and I don't think
+there's anything magical about Tuesday
+Thursday Friday before for noon uh it's
+just the idea of setting a boundary and
+collectively committing to it that that
+seems to be important and I think you
+know when I think about this uh I'd be
+I'd be really curious about your take on
+um on chronotypes here because I think
+one thing I've learned in the last
+couple years is that if you're a if
+you're a morning person um you do your
+best analytical and creative thinking in
+the morning and so the quiet time block
+would work very well for for me as a
+morning person if you're a night owl you
+probably want that block in the late
+afternoon and I was encouraged
+there was some evidence during Co that
+uh people have their best meetings right
+after lunch uh that they're something
+like 30% less likely to multitask in an
+after lunch meeting uh and I guess you
+know you could probably unpack the like
+the food coma uh you know getting
+re-energized by other people but it's
+led me to wonder if we should all be
+protecting the first few hours and the
+last few hours of the day for deep work
+and then doing our core meetings and
+interactions and kind of off task
+activities the middle what do you think
+about that as a sequence yeah well I
+have a lot of questions about this for
+you but um I love that sequence it
+certainly fits with my natural rhythms I
+I think there's ample evidence to
+support the fact that provided one is
+sleeping well at night and is on more or
+less a standard schedule when I say
+standard I mean going to bed somewhere
+between let's say 9:30 and 11:30 p.m.
+waking up sometime between let's say um
+6:00 a.m. and 8:00 a.m. maybe 5:30 or
+7:30 um something like that so not
+highly unusual Night Owl or super early
+bird um for people that are following
+that sort of schedule the first let's
+just say from zero to eight hours after
+waking there tends to be a a fairly
+robust increase in all the catamin so
+dopamine or epinephrine epinephrine
+which generally okay generally speaking
+uh lead to increases in alertness
+attention and focus that are great for
+analytic work uh great for
+implementation of strategies that you
+already understand and you need to churn
+through a lot of stuff um and of course
+there's a big increase in the morning
+especially if you view morning sunlight
+a healthy increase I should say in
+cortisol cortisol is not bad folks you
+you want cortisol but you want that Peak
+early in the day we know that okay so um
+for most people it seems at least my
+understanding is that um that period of
+time 0 to eight or uh eight hours after
+waking or so um is best devoted to the
+quote unquote most critical tasks but
+one of the common problems is that
+people take that um ability to implement
+a known strategy and they start
+battering back all the emails or talking
+to all by the way talking to co-workers
+is great and it's often required but
+it's what the question is whether or not
+it's productive conversation or whether
+or not it's just conversation and we
+tend to have a lot of energy early in
+the day and I'm I'm obsessed with the
+idea of neural energy as opposed to just
+caloric energy um so there we're talking
+about neural energy and then post lunch
+so really as we get to sort of you know
+9 to 17 hours after waking there is a
+dip in autonomic arousal that during the
+middle of the day the postp perenial dip
+there a post lunch sleepiness um that
+can be partially offset by delaying your
+morning caffeine a bit if you have the
+afternoon crash but it's interesting
+that you know that more productive
+meetings and less um task switching and
+distraction occurred um in meetings set
+after lunch because that makes me think
+that perhaps being a little bit less
+alert is going to lend itself to more
+focus and indeed that's the the sort of
+optimal State relaxed but focused you
+know you're not sleepy um but you also
+don't have so much intrinsic energy that
+you're you know tending to a bunch of
+things because I think a lot of people
+do feel that way you know and I'm
+drinking you know Double Espresso right
+now um late midm morning um late morning
+uh and you know I can sit still but I
+think certain Zoom meetings how do I say
+this I don't want to offend any of my
+colleagues I mean they are boring enough
+they are not content enough to to grab
+all my attention and nowadays of course
+there are multiple screens typically
+I've got two phones and a computer and
+you have to really spend some work to
+flip over those phones while I'm on a
+zoom and things like that um so may were
+you saying so it's maybe the reduction
+in autonomic arousal that that supports
+what you just described but I don't know
+um my my thinking uh or my understanding
+rather was that creative work and kind
+of um brainstorming was best
+accomplished in the late afternoon um
+I've noticed when lecturing I'd be
+curious what your experience is with um
+in University lectures when I held
+courses in the evening I used to like to
+hold my courses 5: to 7:00 p.m. or even
+7 to 9:30 p.m. when I was teaching
+undergraduates that people were much
+looser and more relaxed and I always um
+uh thought that that might have
+something to do with an increase in Gaba
+transmission that's known to happen late
+in the late evening that people are just
+kind of more relaxed and less social
+anxiety they've been around people for
+much of the day anyway I I I send back
+more Reflections than answers I don't
+have any firm Neuroscience explanations
+for what you describe but but there are
+some emerging theories about how it
+might work and it has this 0o to 9 hours
+Phase One 9 to 17 hours phase two and
+then of course from 17 to 24
+hours I'll call it phase three you
+should be asleep yeah ideally well that
+I I think there's there's a there's a
+confound in your your teaching
+experience which is undergrads often
+sleep in until what or they might be up
+until 4 a.m. or at least 10: a.m. seems
+to be a typical rise time for the
+undergradu so a morning class might be
+too early for them to be fully awake but
+there is um there's some brand new
+evidence that at least on creativity at
+work um I read a series of I think it
+was three studies recently showing that
+early birds actually did do more
+creative work in the morning um and in
+part uh I think again the I don't I
+don't think any neuroscientist has has
+touched the mechanisms on this yet but
+in terms of the psychological processes
+early on there's just there seems to be
+a benefit of of the energy level um and
+some of that energy leads to more
+Divergent thinking uh and later if
+you're a morning person you might lose
+the ability to to diverge quite as much
+and so you end up in a more conventional
+space of thought does that does that
+track it all with your understanding of
+how it might play out in the brain my
+understanding is it would be a little
+bit in it would be individual but you
+know there is something to these Lial
+States between sleep and waking so maybe
+we can um wrap a convenient bow around
+what I said and what you what you just
+said which is um that we know that in
+the transition States into and out of
+sleep and it doesn't necessarily have to
+be within the first half hour in and out
+of sleep that um there seems to be more
+Divergent thinking or at least
+activation of neural networks that um
+are not as constrained as one observes
+when they're in a in a sheer task and
+strategy implementation mode right I
+mean I think is that similar to the
+shower effect the shower effect so
+people have ideas in the while or while
+running or um while falling asleep or my
+best ideas always come within the first
+hour after waking that's why I carry a
+notebook around and much to the dismay
+of people in my life oftentimes I I
+don't want to hear or from or talk to
+anyone first thing in the morning uh
+this is problematic and I had to make
+adjustments we'll talk about adjustments
+between um uh productivity and uh
+control and and um Family interactions
+this is something I know you you've
+worked on and and written about um but
+the those Lial states are are
+interesting and and I'd love your
+thoughts on this um I've had several
+guests on this podcast talk about their
+creative process um namely Rick Rubin um
+who's famous for his work in music
+producing also has a great podcast tetri
+grammaton um as well as Carl dice Roth a
+colleague of mine who's really in the
+0.00001% of um super talented
+bioengineers neuroscientists who also
+happens to be a full-time um clinical
+psychiatrist and has five children okay
+um and I asked them about their creative
+process because both of them are very
+creative um Carl's process involves the
+following late at night for him but it
+could really be any time of day
+deliberately making his body as still as
+possible and forcing himself to think
+and complete sentences Rick's creative
+process although it includes a lot of
+different things has a lot to do
+with also getting very still lying down
+okay other folks that I've spoken to
+academic and and artists have referred
+to getting their body into motion but
+quieting their mind so these are two
+opposite processes in one case the body
+is still but the mind is deliberately
+very active in the other scenario the
+body is very active but they're making
+their mind sort of in free association
+not still but they're not deliberately
+thinking about any one thing fascinating
+and I'm obsessed with this maybe you and
+I could work on this you know I'm doe
+for a sabatical maybe we could figure
+this out because I think I've never seen
+anyone study this before right because
+the the the nervous know that the
+nervous system I'm not aware of anyone
+has done it formally either the nervous
+system of course is a is a brain body
+phenomenon and so what happens when we
+sort of cut off the deliberate
+operations of brain or body and it it
+doesn't seem to matter whether or not
+it's brain or body as long as one is
+deliberately shut off and so anyway I
+love your thoughts on this um I don't
+consider myself like a Ultra creative or
+creative type um to any great degree but
+me neither that's why but I'm fascinated
+right right but that's but fascinated by
+these deliberate tactics that highly
+creative people have have uh undertaken
+um in order to bring about ideas I
+certainly have some of my best ideas
+when I'm running and I'll just be
+running along like my goodness I wasn't
+even thinking and now I need to write
+this down okay and then continue uh I
+tried the daero approach and the the
+Ruben approach actually just spent a
+week with Rick um overseas and indeed he
+spends a lot of time just still thinking
+and it's a very hard practice to to get
+um to get consistent with I wonder I
+wonder if there are individual
+differences here on on which needs to be
+stable or steady um I'm think you know
+I'm thinking about a huge part of
+creativity is um is overriding your
+default instincts and if you're somebody
+whose default is to have your mind
+constantly going then quieting would
+probably shift your your train of
+thought to something more original or
+unconventional um the opposite might be
+true if you have a naturally quiet mind
+I would imagine imagine you need to you
+need to sort of jolt yourself out of
+that with lots of access to you know to
+free ranging thoughts and so um it'd be
+interesting actually to study whether we
+can predict what you should steal based
+on your personality yeah I want and
+maybe what we could do with that study I
+think we have a collaboration Brewing
+you know there's a joke you know two two
+scientists walk into a room and what
+comes out is a collaboration so um I'd
+want to put people in a scanner it's
+hard to get people treadmilling in a
+scanner because a movement artifact but
+and just look at net uh resting Network
+activation and compare that to resting
+Network activation when people are
+completely still and forcing themselves
+to think in deliberate delate senses and
+then look at the overlap in that VIN
+diagram that's what's of interest to me
+they may be completely different brain
+States they might actually have more
+similarity than differences I wonder
+then if you can tie that to differences
+in the quality and quantity of output so
+I would imagine that one of the benefits
+of either kind of movement is that you
+you end up increasing the volume of
+ideas which we know is good for variety
+and ultimately increases the probability
+that you stumble onto something new but
+then I think this the being still part
+is probably better for the filtering
+process of I think one of the hardest
+parts of creativity is actually judging
+your own ideas um most most creative
+people have many terrible ideas in fact
+the most creative people have the most
+horrible ideas U because they just have
+a lot of ideas and um I think that maybe
+there's a there's a way in which
+quieting either your body or your mind
+allows you to gain some distance from
+the idea and see whether it's boneheaded
+or
+promising I'd like to take a quick break
+and thank our sponsor insid tracker
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+decom huberman along those lines when
+one is trying to gauge the quality of
+their ideas um how do you cope with uh
+how does one cope with not placing a
+judge on that that um causes some you
+know false negatives where you're where
+you're wiping out great ideas because um
+you know Rick Ruben talks a lot about
+you know don't give the audience what
+they want they don't know what they want
+they haven't seen it yet if it's a truly
+creative idea they haven't seen it and
+um but of course we all have to develop
+our own sense of taste so well how does
+this process work for you I mean you've
+written about it worked on a tremendous
+range of topics um and always you know I
+must say with with such rigor and such
+Clarity of communication about those
+topics yeah it's absolutely true I mean
+like 100% so we say around here no weak
+sauce you know and great phrase there's
+no weak sauce in your game it's
+incredible so um when do you get your
+ideas and how do you filter those
+ideas I feel like the when could be
+anytime uh I think the I mean you've
+you've clearly experienced this too for
+me the best thing about hosting a
+podcast is I have an excuse to learn
+about anything I want from almost anyone
+I want and I get to call that part of my
+job and so I feel like you know that
+having that built-in mechanism for
+learning means ideas could could come at
+any moment uh the the filtering process
+for me is um it's evolved over the last
+few years what I what I do now is if I'm
+let's say I'm I'm starting a new book
+I'll write a draft of the first chapter
+and I send it to five to eight people
+whose judgment I trust and by Design
+some of those people are in my field
+they're you know deep-seated in
+organization ational psychology others
+are you know very far outside but
+curious about the topics I'm interested
+in and I asked them for a zero to 10
+score uh this is something I learned to
+do as a as a springboard diver uh where
+you I would I would take off um and you
+know I'm doing a few flips or twists and
+I think my dive is good but I can't see
+it because I'm hurling in midair and
+it's a everything's a blur and so I have
+to rely on my coach to tell me if it was
+any good I feel like creative work is
+the same way you're too close to it to
+know how the audience is going to react
+to it and yes you don't want to create
+it just for the audience but at the end
+of the day you want it to be you know
+interesting or useful to them so I asked
+for the zero to 10 and no one ever says
+10 and then I use that as a calibration
+mechanism so if everybody is in the
+seven to eight range I know that I'm
+onto something promising and now I need
+to refine it if I get a bunch of twos
+threes three and a halfs I either need
+to rethink the idea or dramatically
+rewrite how I'm positioning it and I
+think one of the mistakes a lot of
+people make is they know they need
+feedback on their ideas they go to one
+or two people and they start to feel a
+little bit defensive or threatened and
+their ego gets involved and then they
+don't ask for any more what they don't
+realize is it's actually less painful if
+you get more feedback because when eight
+different people critique your work you
+start to realize that a few of the
+comments that sort of bruise you a
+little bit were just idiosyncratic and
+no one else cared about those issues but
+then five people had the same problem
+like that is not taste that is a quality
+issue and I've got to focus on that and
+so it really helps to filter what are
+the what are the revisions I need to
+make what are the problems and
+complaints I need to pay attention to
+versus what can I ignore because maybe
+this product was not for that person I'm
+recalling when I was a postto I had a
+manuscript fully prepared and I worked
+in a laboratory where I didn't work on
+the same thing as my postto adviser he
+was very gracious in letting he be the
+outlier um and he said well I don't know
+anything about this topic so before you
+submit it to this fairly prestigious
+very frankly very prestigious Journal
+I'll be honest um you should probably go
+down the hall and hand it to so and so I
+don't want to mention who it was because
+I'm still in the same Department um and
+I gave it to him this individual and he
+looked out and he said yeah you know it
+looks interesting but I don't think
+there's going to be a whole lot of
+interest in this it's just like not I
+was like no way like this I think this
+is really cool but I was pretty dismayed
+so I was like oh gosh so what do I do so
+I went back to my adviser and thankfully
+he's a bit of an iconic CL and he said
+that's the best feedback you could have
+gotten definitely submit it to that
+particular journal and I must say that
+paper got accepted faster than any other
+paper I've never had an experience like
+that I mean it required some revisions I
+remember thinking like wow what an
+unusual response to after having
+instructed me to go ask a a more senior
+colleague right he was a at that time
+assistant professor and then to get the
+ne essentially negative response and
+then to take that as like you should
+definitely send it out really taught me
+a lesson that sometimes one needs to
+invert their um their action according
+uh to the negative feedback they get not
+always but um that was an N of one okay
+so it's not uh shouldn't be extrapolated
+to too many circumstances but um
+basically led me to um not seek out uh
+feedback prior to submission of things
+terribly often I mean uh I check
+information obviously prior to podcast I
+checked the validity of the information
+in podcasts and papers but um it made me
+realize that people's opinions can be
+like highly idiosyncratic and and in
+some cases outright wrong and really the
+the opinion of the journal is what What
+mattered most in in terms of getting it
+accepted or not so um how do you you
+said give it to the greatest number of
+people but if it's anything like
+comments on social media there's a
+salience to negative comments so how
+should we filter positive versus
+negative feedback well there's a there's
+a meta analysis here this is kuger and
+Denise um looking at 100 Years of
+feedback research and they found that
+what drives the utility of feedback is
+not whether it's positive or negative
+it's whether it focuses on the task or
+on the self so if I tell you that your
+work is terrible you're going to get
+defensive if I tell you that your work
+is great you're going to get complacent
+if I tell you here's the specific thing
+that that I liked about your work you're
+going to try to learn to repeat that and
+if I tell you here's the thing I didn't
+like you're going to try to see if you
+can fix it so I actually think we should
+worry less about whether the feedback is
+encouraging or discouraging and more
+about how do I make sure that I get
+input that's going to allow me to learn
+from my strengths and also overcome my
+weaknesses um and actually I one of the
+things I've I've learned recently is
+there's some I would say growing body of
+evidence at this point that asking for
+feedback is not the best way to get
+people to help you um because when you
+ask for feedback you end up getting two
+groups of people you get cheerleaders
+and you get critics and cheerleaders are
+basically applauding your best self
+critics are attacking your worst self
+what you want is a coach which is
+somebody who helps you become a better
+version of yourself and the way you get
+people to coach you is not to say give
+me feedback because they will then look
+at the past and tell you what you
+screwed up or what you did right what
+you want is to say can you give me
+advice for next time and then they look
+at the future and they'll give you
+either a note on something to repeat or
+something to correct and this is such a
+subtle shift but it can make a big
+difference um Andrew one of the things
+I've I guess I found myself applying
+this to a lot is um uh after giving
+speeches uh I used to get off stage and
+say i' would love some feedback and you
+get back a bunch of oh you know I really
+enjoyed that thanks what do I do with
+that information I'm trying to learn how
+to get better and when I shift the
+question to say what's the one thing I
+could do better next time it's like oh
+don't open with a joke the audience
+couldn't tell you were joking um
+uh frequently it's give me a little bit
+more of a through line uh you focused a
+lot on you know a bunch of interesting
+points but I lost the connective tissue
+and you know those those actionable
+suggestions are much more likely to come
+when you just ask for a tip as opposed
+to an evaluation oh that's so good I'm
+GNA just pause for a second I I've never
+taken a pause I've taken occasional Paws
+to be honest but they're very rare um as
+the audience knows oh that that's just
+gazillion dollar advice because I think
+that um everyone has an ego we all want
+to perform Well we'd like to perform
+better over time and negative feedback
+hurts and it can hurt a little or a lot
+depending on how defensive we are but a
+tool like you just described to uh
+remove some of that
+defensive armor that we all have and and
+actually let the information in in a way
+that's constructive uh is really great
+what you described I think is a way to
+create constructive criticism but the
+constructive part is really coming from
+within yeah as opposed to saying I'd
+like some constructive criticism and
+then hoping that the criticism is
+actually constructive so you're taking
+control over the process in a healthy
+way in a benevolent way that that's the
+goal and I think the the big question
+that comes up for a lot of people at
+this point is okay so I get somebody to
+give me advice but it might still sting
+how do I get better at taking it
+constructively
+and I think probably my favorite
+technique on this I learned from Sheila
+Keen she calls it the the second score
+and the idea is that when somebody gives
+you a piece of criticism uh that's your
+first score so let's say you know they
+like I in my in my world they gave me a
+three and a half and I want to know how
+I can do better next time how do I get
+myself to focus on that what I do is say
+I want to get a 10 for how well I took
+the three and a half and that's the
+second score I want to evaluate myself
+on how well I took the first score I I
+think about this almost every day there
+was um actually can I tell you a quick
+story so when I was uh right out of my
+doctorate I got asked to teach a a
+motivation class for Air Force generals
+and Colonels I was
+25 I think 25 26 um you know they're
+they're all twice my age uh they've got
+thousands of flying hours they've got
+billion dollar budgets uh they've got
+well you know this community well their
+nicknames Striker and sandune and I was
+extremely intimidated so I I walked in
+there and I I thought I had to impress
+them and I started talking about my
+credentials and you know all my research
+experience and the feedback at the end
+of the 4-Hour session was brutal I
+remember at reading the feedback forums
+and one person had written more
+knowledge in the audience than on the
+podium I was like true I can't argue
+with that and then another wrote I gain
+nothing from this session but I trust
+the instructor gain useful
+insight and that that was devastating I
+was like can I I would really like to
+transform into an actual bear and
+hibernate for the next four months and
+then maybe I'll come out of a hole ready
+to hear this I didn't have that option I
+had committed to teach a second session
+a week later so all I could do was
+figure out how am I going to hear this
+feedback and really take it seriously
+and I guess I applied a version of the
+second score and I said all right there
+you know there's some generals that are
+going to come back and see me again and
+I've got to prove to them that I was
+open to feedback and one of the things I
+heard loud and clear was that uh they
+valued humility and I had led with too
+much confidence which was just
+insecurity Mast and so I thought okay
+how do I how do I change the equation
+and walked in looked at the room and I
+said I know what you're all thinking
+right now what could I possibly learn
+from a professor who's 12 years
+old Dead Silence
+oh no this is this is going to go
+horribly wrong and then uh one of the
+guys in the audience jumps in he's like
+oh that's ridiculous you got to be at
+least
+13 everybody started laughing it broke
+the ice and I think what what I was
+trying to do was to take myself off the
+pedestal and say look I heard your
+feedback uh you told me that you didn't
+think I had anything to teach you and
+I've got to acknowledge that right up
+front and be open to the fact that
+that's true and so I want to come in
+here and learn from you and I want to
+see if I can create a conversation where
+we all end up learning and the feedback
+was night and day different afterward I
+one one person wrote although Junior
+inexperience the professor dealt with
+the evidence in an interesting way I
+like all right I'll take it and um
+there's something really powerful about
+about saying look you know I can't
+change the fact that they hated my
+session what I can do is convince them
+that I was motivated to learn from their
+criticism I love this concept of the
+second score and thank you for sharing
+that story I think um you know very
+often um we hear about people like you
+who if people didn't catch the math in
+there uh you were a PhD by age 25 um and
+as far as I know the the youngest tener
+professor at pen at 28 so these are
+outrageous uh outrageously impressive um
+metrics of accomplishment but for you to
+share a um a story about uh you know um
+less than Optimal Performance and how
+you adjusted to it and and and the
+incorporation of the this second score
+um that you're referring to I think is
+uh is really appreciated because I think
+that um as much as we hear you know oh
+you know Jordan you know took many more
+you know free throws and everyone just
+thinks about all the ones he made you
+know people think about all the ones he
+made that's the way the game works
+that's the way the mind works I should
+say so it's um I appreciate that you've
+flesh it out with a with a personal
+example I too would want to turn into a
+bear and disappear but I would but I
+think that um it's really impressive
+what you did and and I and it makes me
+think that the second score of getting a
+10 at at bringing the three and a half
+up right uh as it were um is really
+about turning a
+score into a verb process you know over
+and over again as I've do this podcast
+and and as I've taught in the classroom
+what I keep coming back to is this idea
+that we should be focusing more on verbs
+and less on nouns we love to name things
+and categorize them but but when we
+start living life through a lot of verb
+processes so instead of getting Being
+Fit uh we think about that you know or
+running as a thing we really think about
+like just running right it becomes less
+daunting and and we accomplish far more
+but the idea that um you know and this
+has this there are mathematical models
+of this I'm sure but where you're
+basically talking about you know like an
+integral right as opposed to just some
+value right you're talking about the
+slope of the line yeah right so you're a
+three and a half how are you going to
+get to a 10 gosh that's a huge gap and
+you're dealing with being back on your
+heel psychologically from getting all
+this you know battering feedback from
+these uh you know these uh highly
+accomplish individuals with all these
+enement and you know literally wearing
+them presumably on their body uh so you
+for you see and and it's really about
+creating it's about taking control of
+the slope of that line from the three
+onward and it's really a forward-looking
+perspective so I don't think we're being
+unduly psychological here or analytic I
+mean I think it's really about taking a
+a moment State and a noun and turning it
+into a verb yeah I think that's right I
+I'm reminded of the great philosopher
+Homer Simpson who said that verbing
+weirds language uh so it's harder to
+talk about this stuff in verbs I swear I
+didn't steal it from The Simpsons but if
+it came from Homer Simpson like I'm all
+for it you have to I mean that's small
+brain small brain but you know given the
+size of his brain and people have seen
+the image uh uh you know fairly fairly
+robust knowledge no I I think you're on
+to something I think um verbs are active
+and we're we're drawn to them um I think
+yeah a lot of times people review their
+past work and they just like they end up
+shaming an earlier version of themselves
+and they they wallow in rumination and
+what what we want to try to do in that
+situation which is easier said than done
+is to say all right like the purpose of
+you know of of getting feedback or
+advice is not to shame my past self it's
+to educate My Future Self um which I
+think is very connected to a lot of the
+work on growth mindset that that you've
+been talking about and uh there's been a
+firestorm of controversy around uh can
+we teach growth mindset in schools
+lately and uh I think what what that is
+underscored for me is look you can't you
+can't expect someone to listen to One
+podcast episode or go through one
+workshop and magically believe that
+they're capable of learning anything at
+any moment um this is something we have
+to actively work on on a daily basis and
+part of doing that exactly as you said
+is thinking about the slope and saying
+all right um the person that I'm you
+know I'm competing with is my past self
+and I want to get a little bit better
+today than I was
+yesterday yeah I think um along the
+lines of growth mindset obviously we
+both know Carol DW and uh respect her
+tremendously and I um and I realize
+there is some controversy now around how
+you know readily one can teach growth
+mindset or incorporate growth mindset my
+understanding and um I'd love to know
+your thoughts on this is that when the D
+work is combined with some of the alium
+work that is growth mindset is combined
+with a knowledge just a basic and true
+understanding that stress and the
+feelings of anxiety and tension that um
+can actually be performance- enhancing
+when those two things are combined I
+think this the work of David joer and
+colleagues at UT Austin that uh indeed
+growth mindset becomes um more visible
+in our in our uh mindsets and
+performance um and are there other
+aspects to growth mindset and and other
+um other mindsets that are now being
+woven into that framework that that can
+be helpful because I know um gosh if
+ever there was a great name for a area
+of psychology growth mindset it tells
+you everything you want everything you
+need and everything you sort of need to
+know in just the name um but uh we all
+find it difficult to implement um just
+telling myself I'm not as good as
+something I could be yet it sounds great
+but in moments of you know receiving
+feedback uh that's harsh um sometimes
+it's hard to access yeah it is I think
+so the the latest there's a mamera um ET
+all metaanalysis and then you know I
+think sort of that camp versus the the
+Carol and David Camp um you know have
+very different views on how big the
+effects are but I think one thing they
+they seem to agree on is growth mindset
+is more important in circumstances uh
+where people are more likely to need it
+um so if you think about for example um
+kids who are impoverished um or
+marginalized communities um you know the
+message that you actually you know that
+you you are capable of um you know of
+evolving your skills to the point that
+something you're bad at today you could
+be good at next year um is really
+important when you've never heard that
+before um and when you don't have a
+single person believing in you I think
+where um where we're often missing the
+boat is we all right I'm just going to
+I'm going to instill this idea in a
+person's head and my work is done um and
+we know that the context around you
+really matters so um actually Carol's
+done some research showing that uh
+growth mindset is more likely to have an
+impact uh when your classroom culture um
+also and your teacher right has the
+belief that kids are capable of learning
+and growing um that your you know your
+starting ability is not fixed in any
+subject and I think we probably for all
+of us as individuals what that means is
+we need to think about the the micro
+environment that we put ourselves in um
+I think you know the guess one one of
+the things I've thinking a lot about
+lately is scaffolding and the idea that
+you know when you're when you're trying
+to improve at something you don't need a
+a permanent teacher necessarily you
+don't need one Mentor you know guiding
+you for nine years what you need is is
+somebody who can give you the temporary
+support that allows you to to scale to a
+New Height just like a a scaffold wood
+on a building um and in learning theory
+basically the idea behind scaffolding is
+we're going to initially give you the
+support you need to solve a problem and
+then we're going to slowly remove the
+support so that you learn to to do it on
+your own and I think that those those
+kinds of scaffolds are often missing so
+we instilled the growth mindset like
+I've got this belief in my head but I
+don't know what I need to do um to you
+know to put that belief into action and
+that's where um that I guess that that
+to me is we have to go beyond mindset we
+have to think about how do we put people
+in a context that allows them to to put
+their beliefs into
+practice you are asking me what else do
+we need like to support growth ET and
+make it effective right yeah I mean we
+know people learn what growth mindset is
+it's the idea that you're not as good at
+something yet okay terrific but it's
+very hard to implement in real time
+there are I have to presume additional
+tools that one can uh bolster the growth
+mindset with make it make it more
+accessible um and benefit from it yes so
+um Justin Berg and Amy rzeski and I uh
+study this actually uh we did um we were
+looking at growth mindset at work and uh
+Justin's uh well he's Stanford I don't
+know if you met him yet I have not but
+big place um he'll be on the list soon
+if uh brilliant creativity researcher
+and Amy just joined us at at Wharton and
+uh has fundamentally changed the way
+that I think about um ideas um in the
+way that she studied how we can shape
+our context and just done pathbreaking
+work there and we we were interested in
+growth mindset and we we designed an
+intervention where people could learn
+growth mindset at work uh so we taught
+them to think about how their skills
+were malleable how they could stretch
+their knowledge into new areas and we
+found that teaching them that was not
+enough to boost their happiness or their
+performance what we needed to also do
+was um give them a growth mindset not
+just about themselves but also about
+their
+jobs uh in other words to teach them
+that your job is a set of flexible
+building blocks that you've got a whole
+bunch of tasks that make up your job
+some of those are you know are things to
+do others are might be interactions that
+you need to have and if you break down
+your your job into all these tests you
+might have some tests that you want to
+accentuate and make a bigger part of
+your job others that you want to try to
+subtract um others that you might swap
+with a colleague and a lot of people it
+turns out think their jobs are are fixed
+by their job descriptions but in fact
+you have a ton of opportunity to say
+wait a minute you know there's something
+there's a strength I have but I'm not
+using it right now is there a way we can
+bring that into my work and so um in
+these couple experiments we did when we
+randomly assigned people to learn both
+that their jobs were malleable and that
+their skills were malleable um they got
+a sustainable boost to their happiness
+that lasted at least six months there
+was no cost to their performance um
+meaning you could to redesign your own
+job to be more enjoyable without uh
+without a drop in the effectiveness of
+your contributions uh to your workplace
+and I think what I I came away from that
+research realizing is like it's not
+enough to just say well well I can get
+better I can improve because very often
+you feel like your your environment is
+limited I'm like great like yeah I can
+grow but I'm stuck in a deadend job and
+so what we need to do there is um is
+open up the opportunity for people to um
+to to innovate on their own job
+description and then growth mindset can
+begin to to have an impact I love it it
+sounds a bit like adding a s to growth
+growth mindset so it's not growth
+mindset it's growth mindsets uh because
+earlier you mentioned that in the
+classroom environment if the teacher
+adopts a growth mindset yes as well as
+the students well then you have a
+culture of growth mindset so it's the um
+interconnectedness of of this and the
+and the context in which the
+individual's growth mindset exists do I
+have that right well put yeah we we
+ended up calling it dual mindset um but
+I think making it a plural is good
+because um you know it's it's not I I
+have this image of um you know you you
+put a person in a in a cage and then
+tell them they're capable of growing
+still stuck in a cage and so we need to
+we need to give them a chance to to bust
+through those walls super important I
+hate to take us back to an earlier topic
+um but there's something that I meant to
+ask you that I didn't and I'm absolutely
+needing to ask you which is your recent
+work or recent ish work it was a few
+years back now and you're so prolific
+that I have to call it a few years back
+um the relationship between intrinsic
+motivation and performance on other
+tasks um yeah and the reason I asked
+this is severalfold
+um I did two episodes of the podcast on
+ADHD and one of the things that I
+learned in talking to experts on ADHD
+people with ADHD as well as looking at
+some of the novel treatments everything
+from behavioral to prescription drug to
+even nutrition-based
+was that kids and adults with clinically
+diagnosed ADHD are actually terrific at
+paying attention to things that they
+really enjoy or that they're super
+interested in so clearly they have the
+capacity it's just that they have um
+deficits if you will in attending to
+things that are less exciting to them
+less intriguing to them so if I recall
+correctly uh you have a publication that
+explored the relationship between
+intrinsic motivation and performance in
+other stuff yeah and one of the major
+conclusions was that having a deep deep
+interest in one thing might not be the
+best uh condition for performing well at
+other less interesting tasks Could you
+um could you tell us about that study
+what motivated you to carry out that
+study and what some of the major
+takeaways were yeah definitely um you
+you summarized it really well I think um
+the the original impetus so this was
+another project with G shin and uh G
+came to me want wanting to study
+intrinsic motivation and we were talking
+about what do we know about intrinsic
+motivation and what are the gaps in our
+knowledge and one thing that has always
+bothered me is when psychologists study
+something that sounds positive and they
+only study the benefits of it like
+there's no such thing as an unmitigated
+good right all all all sort of enjoyable
+experiences have costs all unpleasant
+experiences can have benefits we need to
+we need to fill out this two by two of
+good thing bad thing um good outcome bad
+outcome um and so my challenge to her
+was can you show me the Dark Side of
+intrinsic motivation and she came back
+and she said what if there's a cost of
+loving a task leading you to hate a test
+that you don't like even more than you
+did before it's like oh that's an
+interesting idea tracks with the basic
+psychology of contrast effects uh where
+um you know if you eat something
+delicious then your least favorite food
+tastes a little bit worse afterward and
+so I said let's let's study this so um
+she ended up getting data from um from
+people at work and then we also designed
+an experiment and sure enough uh the the
+more passionate you are on task one the
+more your performance suffers if task
+two is really boring and I guess what
+what this did for me is it made me think
+differently about task sequencing I used
+to wake up in the morning and do my most
+interesting task first and then the
+grading was hell and what I do now is I
+start with a moderately interesting task
+it's a little bit of a warm-up for me
+and then I have an exciting one to look
+forward to and if I do have a task
+that's boring but important I think the
+performance is going to suffer less
+interesting um I normally don't ask
+about morning routines and how one
+structures their day because it's highly
+individual completely agree yeah and it
+and it depends depends on whether or not
+people have kids and they're pets and
+you know what other uh but I'll just
+share with you a brief anecdote I have a
+friend who's a very accomplished
+musician and has been for for several
+decades now and he told me that he has a
+practice of after he gets off stage and
+he's like Stadium Stadium sellout level
+um
+musician um has been for a long time and
+shows no signs of stopping just
+incredible but a very down toe person um
+and he said one of the first things he
+does when he gets off stage is to go do
+some menial task I thought there's no
+way that's true but I've known his wife
+since college and she she verified that
+statement I was like what what sorts of
+medial task you talking about he's like
+oh like cleaning up some of the cans and
+things that are there maybe even
+cleaning a toilet at a venue and I
+thought no chance but it turns out to be
+true and I said what what's this about
+is this about humility he said well
+maybe a little bit but he said it
+actually makes it a lot easier for him
+to return home and deal with the kind of
+little things that just are out of scale
+with the experiences that he just had
+he's tapering way okay I think yeah yeah
+I I first of all I was so struck by the
+fact that he had um created this process
+for himself so long ago and he's also
+somebody who's you know he's maintained
+he's like been the same marriage for an
+extremely long time he's he's extremely
+happy in that and his family I mean it
+see one of these people that seems to
+thrive in all domains of life and I'm
+certain that he struggles in some domain
+of life because everybody does but um
+it sound to me like a very unusual
+practice but it seems to kind of relate
+to this that you know he has this thing
+that he loves doing playing music and
+performing in particular and he's just
+you know you know
+0.01% at doing that um but then just
+like bring himself back down to Earth
+because so much of life and especially
+family life is like dealing with the the
+Schmutz and the inconvenience of
+everyday life yeah is it's it actually
+sounds like what he's doing is he's
+resetting his frame of reference to say
+if you know if I go right home
+then the contrast between you this high
+octane experience I'm having um and sort
+of muddling through everyday life um is
+going to be extreme if I do something
+really small then um family time is
+going to seem a lot bigger yeah so I
+realize that I'm I'm taking a bit of a
+leap from your study on intrinsic
+motivation and and low performance in in
+other domains but you know to me
+cleaning up cleaning a toilet is you
+know it's it's uh it's boring for all
+the reasons right um as you said you do
+not want that to be an exciting no and
+and listen I mean if I had to do it for
+a living I would you right and I would
+try and do as well as possible and uh uh
+but um right so well I found that study
+to be particularly interesting because I
+think that these days we um we glorify
+high performance even quote unquote Peak
+Performance um something we can talk
+about and we forget that um yes
+oftentimes people who are ultra high
+performers can afford to pay other
+people to do all the other stuff but I
+have to say in knowing some ultra high
+performers and in knowing some people in
+the um billionaire bracket you know
+there's a high incidence of of mental
+health issues frankly and um lack of
+satisfaction with life that maybe even
+comes from not um having to do anything
+besides the things that you find most
+intrinsically rewarding um we all think
+that oh I if I could I would spend all
+day doing the things that I find most
+intrinsically rewarding but maybe
+there's something about this Push Pull
+we know the brain works in push pull
+with almost everything that having some
+experiences each day that are kind of
+like H this a thing again do you think
+that heightens our level of satisfaction
+for the things we really enjoy I would
+be surprised if it didn't uh I think I
+think contrast effects are very powerful
+and we know I mean the there's half a
+century of research on happiness
+suggesting that the comparisons we make
+are what matter
+um you know I think I think Tim Urban
+probably put it best when he said
+happiness is reality minus
+expectations and if you only have
+enjoyable experiences your expectations
+are
+rising into perpetuity uh so it doesn't
+matter how good your reality is you
+wanted it to be better and better um I
+think one of the things that mundane
+experiences um managed to do for us uh
+or maybe a better way to say it is I
+think one of the benefits of Munden
+experiences is they keep our
+expectations on the ground uh and allow
+us to be pleasantly surprised by you
+know a task that was more interesting
+than we expected even though we didn't
+love it what are your thoughts on um
+what I call Momentum which is when I
+have um an experience that I
+particularly like like if we record a
+podcast and I'm really excited to get it
+out into the world or if I have some
+experience that I'm left you know very
+excited by at the end that often times
+the energy again I'm obsessed with this
+concept of neural energy the the energy
+that I
+glean from that experience seems to have
+carryover into other things like you
+know I'm GNA be much more excited to
+just go across the street and get a cup
+of coffee feels like a bigger thing than
+it normally would um and I would think
+that one could kind of ride the wake of
+a of a prior accomplishment even a small
+accomplishment each day and make the you
+know tidying up or doing things that one
+would normally find more boring less
+boring is that true the way you're
+describing contrast effects makes it
+seem like it's more of a cliff like that
+thing was great and now this thing but I
+also can kind of ride high on um
+something that happened two three days
+ago maybe even two three months ago if
+so feeling good equates to feeling good
+or feeling good uh accentuates the the
+bad stuff this is the tension between
+contrast and spillover and you can see
+both under different conditions I think
+where this is I this is a brand new sort
+of I don't think anybody's reconciled
+those two two perspectives yet but my
+hunch from having worked on the contrast
+part of it is we found that it was only
+extreme intrinsic motivation that had
+the performance cost on other tasks so
+if you're if you're enjoying something
+um if you like it uh that will give you
+a lift for other tests um it's it's
+where this is the best thing you've ever
+done and now other things suck by
+comparison um that's where we start to
+see run into a problem I also wonder um
+if there's a domain switching effect
+here um I think you're you're alluding
+to this um I I read some research that
+just came out this year showing that um
+one of the benefits one of the
+surprising benefits of morning workouts
+is you actually have more confidence in
+your job uh because you get that small
+win like I accomplished something this
+morning and that gives you a sense of
+efficacy that you can carry over into
+your you know the start of your workday
+uh not to suggest that everyone should
+work out in the morning because I'm I'm
+with you I think everybody should you
+know both work and work out at a time
+that works for them but I think um I
+think there's something to be said for
+uh something went really well in one
+realm of my life and that boosts my
+belief in my capability to tackle
+challenges in a different realm what
+about in the opposite direction uh you
+were a competitive diver um I have to
+presume that there were days when you
+had lousy Dives it must have been that
+that one day Adam like every day and
+then you you leave you know you you your
+shower up dry off head head into the
+rest of your day and you know how do we
+segment away from the you know negative
+thought spirals of like something went
+really poorly and now you're off into
+the domain of life where you can do you
+know how to do the things that you're
+required to do but maybe there's some
+Challenge and some learning involved how
+do we cut Moes between negative
+experiences I think uh I mean the Ted
+lasso strategy is ideal become a
+goldfish 10-second memory and then you
+don't even you don't even recall the
+practice you had earlier today I think
+that I don't know anybody who can do
+that consistently um and I think the
+more disappointing the experience is the
+more you tend to to dwell on it I
+think uh when when you talk about
+segmenting negative
+experiences I think the probably the
+research that I've liked best on this
+and I just want to I want to make sure I
+capture this
+clearly um I basically so research on
+emotion regulation says there there are
+two strategies that tend to be effective
+one is distraction the other is
+reframing uh so distraction is is you
+know find something else that will
+consume your attention um that's
+unrelated to the thing that you just
+bombed at uh and the hope is that you
+know that that Fades into the background
+reframing is a lot of what you were
+talking about a few minutes ago which is
+okay let me Focus you know not on the
+level of my performance but the slope um
+my dive-in coach Eric best has a really
+great set of questions that he he asks
+and you know I I I remember I would I
+finish practice like this is a terrible
+day I just feel like I'm worth wor lless
+as a diver and now diving was a big part
+of my identity I'm going to let my team
+down now I'm a bad teammate too my coach
+is wasting his time and like now you
+know he could have been you know
+training somebody much better like why
+am I doing this and Eric would ask uh
+did you make yourself better
+today and even if it was a bad practice
+there is something that improved yes
+okay and sometimes the answer feels like
+no and then he would ask did you make
+someone else better today like yeah I a
+little tip to a teammate um you know
+I I made a joke that you know that made
+everybody laugh and he was like great
+then it wasn't a bad day and I I think
+this is this is an example of what good
+reframing looks like um to say okay the
+goal wasn't to be great it was to be
+better the goal wasn't necessarily just
+to make myself better it was also to
+make other people better um and I think
+those are the kinds of questions that
+seem to segment pretty well I love that
+feedback I think we all get stuck in
+those thought Spirals and um again not
+to demonize smartphones because they are
+wonderful tools but I have to remember
+the time I'm 48 years old uh as of
+tomorrow and I have to remember a time
+in which um negative stuff was probably
+happening in the background but I didn't
+hear about it because no one was texting
+it to me so I'd find out at the end of
+the day when I still had time to do
+other things in the meantime right um
+that said I would also get negative
+experiences early in the day and then
+carry them throughout the entire day
+when nowadays you can get a positive
+text message that says okay it wasn't so
+bad um or something like that but um I
+do think as is probably becoming
+apparent about um these channels of
+communication are
+are either Boons or disruptions to our
+our positive psychology it's clear that
+we're just like being bombarded all the
+time so um just as a as a practical
+question uh what is your relationship to
+your phone um do you set boundaries
+around your phone use or the types of
+communications and activities that you
+engage with on your phone I do so
+everyone I I think everyone I know has a
+to-do list I also have a to don't list
+and on my to don't list includes I don't
+scroll on social media and I don't pick
+up my phone uh past 900 P p.m and those
+those two habits are enormously helpful
+particularly the not scrolling um I pick
+up my phone when I have something to
+post or when I want to see what the
+comments are and then see if there's
+something interesting to learn or or
+somebody that I want to respond to um
+and that that that becomes a really
+healthy boundary because I don't get
+stuck in one of these rabbit holes where
+all of a sudden two hours have gone by
+and I feel like uh I feel like I wasted
+my time uh where do you post or keep
+your to-do and your to don't list do you
+keep them on your phone no it's a Word
+document on my computer okay so you're
+still at the computer screen quite a bit
+each day yeah okay I I feel like that's
+where most of my good thinking and
+writing happens
+mhm yeah I carry a small notebook around
+with me now and write things down I was
+just curious um like one of these yeah
+well like one of those yeah yeah I try
+not to take notes on my phone ever right
+yeah it's it can be problematic for me
+uh especially with with voice
+recognition now because you just it's
+hard to go back to that in a systematic
+way for me but I'm a big believer in
+these these things that but for those
+listening and not watching I'm holding
+up a pen so like pencils work too you
+you've probably read some of the
+research also showing that you have a
+better memory for information when you
+take notes by hand than by keyboard uh I
+didn't know that but I'm very very
+gratified to hear that so the and I
+suppose if you don't have a pen and you
+don't have uh a pencil handy then you
+know blood always works just kidding I'm
+just kidding don't don't don't uh don't
+make yourself or anyone else bleed just
+to get an idea down but it is amazing
+how sometimes we will have ideas while
+running walking showering out and about
+and then later try and recall those
+ideas and if we don't write them down
+they're gone the great Joe Strummer from
+The Clash talked about the critical
+importance of carrying around a small
+notebook such as you did because he said
+that the ideas Fall Down Like Rain and
+you if you catch them they're there but
+if you miss them they truly won't be
+there later and that's there's something
+kind of eerie about that like why
+wouldn't we be able to remember these
+potential gems of ideas all right the
+the the geysering up of the mind we had
+a guest on this podcast for a series Dr
+Paul KY um psychiatrist um and he talked
+extensively about the unconscious mind I
+mentioned this a little earlier but uh
+one of the things that really stuck with
+me is he said you know everyone thinks
+that the prefrontal cortex and the
+frontal cortex is the supercomputer of
+the human brain sets context planning
+strategy switching etc etc certainly in
+its valuable real estate to our
+intellect and all our abilities but he
+said you know the the real supercomputer
+is the unconscious mind
+however that unconscious mind that lives
+below the surface of our awareness is
+also what drives a lot of our
+unconscious defenses so are so-called
+blind spots so projection projective
+identification you know I mean these
+have these can be both good or bad they
+can serve us well or or poorly uh and so
+on and so forth but implied in this
+notion of the unconscious in blind spots
+is that we can't become aware of things
+unless we either do dedicated work to
+become aware of them or even better
+would be dedicated work where we are
+asking other people to say Hey listen
+you have a blind spot and it is blank
+blank and blank so tell us um about the
+role of blind spots maybe even some
+positive aspects of having blind spots
+but more importantly what we can do to
+fill in those blind spots and and uh
+perhaps also explain how how they can
+limit us and if you have any examples
+that um from the research where um
+people overcoming their blind spots has
+benefited them that would be amazing
+yeah wow there's a lot there let me well
+let me start by saying I
+think a lot of people think about blind
+spots in terms of hereis ICS and biases
+so you think about confirmation bias you
+think about the the classic Conan tersi
+work uh that ended up winning Dan a
+Nobel Prize on um you know the the way
+in which um you know our intuitive
+judgments um often get anchored in the
+way we've done things before um or you
+know we focus on the information that's
+sellan and available to us and Overlook
+you know less obvious information I've
+come to think that the the mother of all
+biases is uh what I what I think of is
+the I'm not biased bias
+um it's it's technically called the bias
+blind spot in Emily pronin and
+colleagues research but the idea is that
+I think I'm more objective than other
+people and you may have your you may
+have flaws in your thinking Andrew but
+me like I I see things clearly and
+rationally and I think that this is a
+it's a really dangerous meta bias
+because the moment you believe you're
+not biased you are incapable of seeing
+any of your
+biases um so in some of the research on
+the bias blind spot you see that um that
+people who have um who score high in
+cognitive ability tests so you know high
+IQ are actually more likely to fall
+victim to the I'm not bias bias because
+they've been reinforced for a lifetime
+uh that they're really smart and they're
+good at thinking oh goodness this
+explains some uh we don't talk about
+current events on this podcast much but
+this explain some current events uh
+people that were told their entire
+careers that they are perfect or near
+perfect and um uh yeah circumstances
+eventually came to you know slam them
+hard into the concrete on that one or or
+in some cases it hasn't happened yet but
+we we watch them hurdling toward Earth
+um so I I worry a lot about that so I
+think the beginning of you know of
+seeing any blind spot is recognizing
+that we all have blind spots it's part
+of Being Human um I think that the
+brighter side of that is that we're not
+just blind to weaknesses we're also
+blind to our strengths um so Jane Dutton
+and Laura Morgan Roberts and colleagues
+uh did some research on the reflected
+best self-portrait this is one of my
+favorite exercises to do in the
+classroom but also to do in workplaces
+sometimes even people end up doing it
+with their kids at home the idea is that
+you know you do have strengths that
+you're not that aware of uh they may be
+things that come naturally to you that
+you don't even realize are hard for
+other people they may be things that are
+struggles for you um and so you you
+think it's hard to do and therefore I'm
+bad at it but other people watch you do
+it and realize you're actually quite
+good at it so the you need other people
+to hold up a mirror to see what these
+invisible strengths are so the way the
+flect a best self Exercise Works is
+you're asked to contact 10 to 20 people
+who know you well in different walks of
+life might be a family member a couple
+friends some colleagues and then you ask
+them to tell a story about a time when
+you were at your best and you collect
+these stories it's it's the most
+exciting week of email you will ever get
+20 notes let me tell you how great you
+are but what's key this goes back to our
+discussion of feedback earlier is
+they're really specific about a moment
+when you are at your best and then your
+job is to collect all the stories and do
+the pattern recognition exercise and ask
+what are the common themes that I've
+seen through these stories and it's a
+it's a really powerful and Vivid way of
+of getting a sense of what are those
+strengths and um you know it's not
+surprising that in some of the research
+when people go through this process um
+they end up with much more clarity not
+only about what they're what they're
+good at and where their potential lies
+but also how do I like what do those
+situations have in common where I was
+able to use my strengths and how do I
+get myself in those situations more
+often how do I create those situations
+more often um I I'll give you a personal
+example on this so I I got a bunch of
+feedback that uh I was good at helping
+other people see their
+strengths and I thought okay I don't
+feel like I have enough opportunities to
+use that strength in my daily life so
+what am I going to do about this and I
+ended up flipping the exercise upside
+down and I picked a 100 people who um
+really mattered to me and I wrote a
+story to each of them about a time when
+they were at their
+best and I'm like there's there's no
+reason I can't
+I can't make this part of my day um it's
+probably it was it was probably one of
+the best weeks of My Life um it was
+better than getting the stories was was
+giving them uh and I got these notes
+back from people saying you know I I
+didn't realize I don't even remember
+that thing that
+happened um but I think for me it was an
+example of saying okay um you know I've
+I've always enjoyed um trying to bring
+out the best in others uh I don't feel
+like at the time I was a I was a first
+year doctoral student I didn't feel like
+I had anything to contribute to others
+I'm try I'm trying to learn how to you
+know understand this field and you know
+do a worthwhile study and write a paper
+I'm not teaching yet I have no value to
+add and getting this feedback like oh
+you're somebody who helps other people
+see their potential I'm like all right
+let me let me take some people that I
+you know I already recognize um really
+amazing things in and let me just tell
+them that uh and it took me about a week
+to write the the 100 emails and um I
+can't think of a a week I've spent
+better wow it's so interesting that you
+flipped the process on its head a bit um
+or a lot and that ended up being the
+reward do you think you learned anything
+about given that it was early in your
+academic career do you think you um
+learned anything about your uh
+particular Talent OR desire to to do
+what you do now I mean so much of what
+you described it seems to map well to
+what you do now I mean you could be uh
+if you were to choose or have chosen uh
+just not just but a laboratory scientist
+doing experiments um you're clearly
+still doing that at a with a tremendous
+productivity but you've also decided to
+tell the world about the information
+that you're Gathering and the work of a
+lot of other people as well I guess I
+feel a kinship here because we both do
+this um much much more interesting to
+site other people's work than talk about
+what you already know it is indeed um
+and it's fun to be able to to weave
+one's understanding of the process into
+you know like what are other people
+doing and know how hard it is to do
+really good experiments and um be able
+to spot really good experiments but you
+did you learn in that early um stage of
+your career that like I think I want to
+do this later because what you do now is
+it Maps pretty well onto what you just
+described I I don't think it was it
+wasn't crystallized at the time but it
+was definitely one of those seeds that
+was planted that that must have grown
+because I I remember right after I got
+tenure
+uh a wonderful colleague of mine asked
+if I would write a book with him and I
+was so flattered and I went into to talk
+to my undergrad research lab later that
+day and I you know I mentioned off hand
+I like hey and you I got this invite I'm
+gonna write this book and they freaked
+out like no you cannot write somebody
+else's book you have to write about your
+ideas first like if you're G to write a
+book write your own book and I I I was
+very resistant because I love other
+people's ideas no I what I I feel like
+what I do best um I think it was um boy
+who wrote about the scholarship of
+Discovery versus the scholarship of
+integration and I never felt like I was
+a Eureka you know blindingly you know
+original inside person I felt like what
+I was good at was synthesizing ideas um
+and you know kind of taking a bunch of
+um you know pieces of cloth and and
+sewing them into a quilt and allowing
+people to see the big picture in a way
+they hadn't before and I felt like I
+could do that with a colleague who was
+already a success uccessful author and
+my students basically held me hostage
+and they said you've been doing this
+research for for over a decade now and
+you have a responsibility to share that
+outside your
+classroom and it reminded me of of that
+experience of saying okay there's
+something I see in other people I want
+to share it with them um and maybe I
+could do that on a broader scale so yeah
+I think there was there were definitely
+dots that connected
+there when I was a a master student at
+Berkeley there was a guy who's now mov
+to Michigan State Mark Breedlove who I
+hope to host on the podcast actually is
+this really interest does really
+interesting work on the biology of
+sexual differentiation and Mark I think
+that's an invite if you're listening
+yeah right uh and he um it is indeed and
+he said to me he said you know review
+articles provided they are written by
+people who um are credentialed in a
+given field are cited at you know 100x
+any one particular paper now at the time
+I wasn't interested in um uh impact
+factors in fact I've never paid any
+attention to impact factors they their
+importance varies in in different
+countries and um in the US they they
+play some role um more so in Europe but
+I I could care less about impact factor
+frankly um because those those metrics
+aren't what it's going to carry you
+through the difficulty of Designing and
+carrying out a hard experiment you have
+to be intrinsically curious about the
+answer right you know this and I know
+this but um but he basically said uh
+what what uh something that's really
+supports your point um which is that
+ultimately the ability to synthesize
+information is can feel um really good
+and he started talking about the the the
+feeling that he got from doing that he's
+also a tremendous bench scientist as
+well in any event um I'm so glad that
+you flipped that exercise on its head
+because now the world gets to benefit
+from you doing that for us all the time
+because I I realize now that much of
+what you do is to help um people
+identify and erase their blind spots by
+um and I love your social media channels
+um and I noted uh on Instagram and I do
+scroll but but I scroll through into
+your your channel too um you know you'll
+put up in short form content that that
+really highlights the key importance of
+people embarking on strategies that they
+wouldn't reflexively take that that I
+see that over and over again it's like
+we think that the best leaders do blank
+but actually the research says they do
+exactly the opposite and and you have a
+a vast um kit of those so along those
+lines
+you know what are some of the most
+common blind spots that um You observe
+uh and that people could benefit from
+understanding and and um doing contrary
+action uh around as it relates to uh
+let's say interpersonal relations in the
+workplace or at home and and and maybe
+we could um seed this with uh a finding
+that you've also written about which is
+that you know people who have an exert a
+lot of proficiency and even control in
+their professional life will sometimes
+bring that to their relationship life
+and that doesn't work right the idea
+that like being in charge and being
+confident is a great is a great set of
+attributes um but it can really fail us
+in other domains uh can we weave that in
+with blind spots yeah we can so I think
+that so one of the things I I found over
+the past few years is that and this was
+inspired by a Phil tetlock framework um
+a lot of us spend a lot of our time
+thinking like preachers prosecutors or
+politicians preachers prosecutors
+politicians yeah so you can think about
+these as as three mental modes that even
+if You' never worked in any of these
+careers you you will watch your thinking
+colored by at least one of them more
+often than you would like so in preacher
+mode you're basically prizing your own
+views uh and you I mean Andrew you're
+a in some in some situations I think of
+you as a highly effective professional
+debunker of preachers of you know
+certain kinds of snake oil when it comes
+to health um and you know and biology um
+sometimes you take that too far and
+people might accuse you of being a
+prosecutor uh where you're attacking
+other people's views um and then um the
+third mode politician mode is is
+basically you don't even bother to
+listen to people unless they already
+agree with your views what I what I
+think is is interesting is these these
+modes of thinking are adaptive for in in
+certain roles um so preachers make great
+salespeople they're often Visionary
+leaders uh prosecutors are often highly
+effective scientists right we excel at
+criticizing other people's work and
+finding what's wrong with it um
+politicians are great at crying favor um
+they do a lot of lobbying they win
+approval the problem is that all of
+these modes stop you from questioning
+your own assumptions and beliefs um so
+my I I'll tell you my biggest advice is
+prosecutor mode uh I've been called a
+logic bully my wife had to explain to me
+that was not a
+compliment oh my
+goodness I mean I know I know you've
+experienced this too if I if I if I feel
+confident that there's strong evidence
+that somebody is wrong
+I believe it's my moral responsibility
+to correct them and that never goes well
+amazing um I won't reflect on my own
+experience I'll just say yes and yes uh
+right right the the um logic word ninja
+mode um is one that I think we're
+trained in as academics we are and that
+and you know if you're a lawyer or you
+know or uh many other professions as
+well um and I think it holds value and
+it can be very effective in certain
+domains but um less effective in other
+domains yes and I think part of the
+problem is you know when I actually
+whether you're preaching Prosecuting or
+politicking excuse me or politicking you
+look like you're not open uh because
+you've already in all cases you think
+you're right and other people are wrong
+and so that makes it really hard for
+other people to to reason with you to
+disagree thoughtfully with you so my
+favorite alternative and and this is at
+the heart of what you do for a living um
+and for fun is thinking like a
+scientist and when I say thinking like a
+scientist I do not mean that you need to
+buy a microscope or invest in a
+telescope what I mean is as as you model
+so effectively a good scientist has the
+humility to know what they don't know
+and the Curiosity to constantly seek out
+new knowledge there have been multiple
+experiments showing that when people are
+taught to think like scientists uh their
+judgment improves and so do their
+decisions and I think a lot of that
+stems from um when when you go into
+scientist mode you realize that all of
+your opinions are just hypotheses to be
+tested all of your decisions are
+experiments and so you're like well I
+you know I'm not trying to prove that
+I'm right I'm trying to find out if I
+might be wrong and then if I find out I
+am wrong it's easier to Pivot and
+instead of being really invested in
+being right I can try to get it right um
+and I think in some ways that's the
+that's the meta message that I'm trying
+to communicate to people with my work is
+um assumptions are meant to be pressure
+tested they're meant to be questioned
+and challenged and if you're not open to
+rethinking your views um then you
+basically turn thinking into a religion
+uh and I don't know about you but I
+prefer to base my views on on good data
+um as opposed to Blind Faith um and I
+think that's been a huge part of your
+contribution in the last three or so
+years to public discourse is um you've
+you've helped people think more
+scientifically and talk more
+scientifically about their daily habits
+and behaviors and um I guess my my big
+question is how do we help people do
+that more often even in domains where
+they don't have access to scientific
+knowledge and they don't read journals
+first of all thanks for the kind words
+of feedback I think you know my my goal
+is always to you know identify who's
+coming to the podcast for health tools
+and protocols and hopefully teach them
+some science and scientific thinking and
+for those that are coming to the podcast
+for Science and scientific thinking
+hopefully they get some health tools and
+protocols also but um because I fell in
+love with science for the exact reason
+that you're describing which is that I
+uh I lived I grew up in a family that
+was very divided politically along
+religious lines along essentially every
+line of like what foods to eat what was
+health what wasn't and the only way I
+could reconcile um these very frankly
+polarized views was to you know embark
+on the scientific method POS a
+hypothesis and then try and disprove
+one's hypothesis and some things get
+through the filter and it's a constant
+learning so um I should just ask when
+you teach people how to be a scientist
+in order to try and overcome some of
+their blind spots and be better thinkers
+better meaning it serves themselves and
+the people around them better uh is that
+teaching them what a hypothesis is that
+a HP a hypothesis is not a question it's
+it's sort of a um you're you wager on an
+idea with the understanding that you
+very well could be wrong and then you
+try and disprove that idea is that is
+that sort of the Crux of of what uh in
+these experiments is um you're
+describing as teaching people how to be
+scientists like if they just do that
+then they'll they're going to benefit I
+think that's that's at the very heart of
+the lens is I want to just double click
+on the idea of disproving your
+hypothesis right most people live in a
+Land of confirmation bias where they're
+they're basically just looking for
+support for their pre-existing beliefs
+that's right they're click forging we
+all do this by the way I'm not
+criticizing here we all will have an
+idea and then we will click forage
+online to support the idea
+that we disagree with them they disagree
+with us ah here's somebody I agree with
+and that agrees with me I think and do
+you think this has roots in our um you
+know in the neural Circuit underpinnings
+of of um
+just wanting to have affiliation that
+affiliation feels good yeah you having
+people that are like us knowing that
+we're kind of protected in that yeah I
+think that's a big part of it I think
+one of the reasons that we we encase
+ourselves in Echo Chambers and um hide
+and filter bubbles is uh there's there's
+a strong evolutionary pressure to avoid
+social exclusion and so you know it's
+not it's not just the you know being
+drawn to affiliation it's also um I I
+really want I'm afraid of being
+excommunicated from my group and if I
+challenge the Orthodoxy of the community
+that I belong to I might be an outcast
+and I don't think I don't think every
+day people think through that logic but
+I think there's a there's a deep-seated
+um visceral tendency to avoid that and
+you know I think the when we think about
+teaching people to see their blind spots
+more clearly um a lot of that is is
+recognizing it's hard to do that on your
+own um because by definition your blind
+spots are invisible to you and so this
+is why other people people's input is so
+important and I think you know I'm I
+know this makes a lot of people
+uncomfortable but I think everybody on
+social media should follow people that
+they disagree with but not just for the
+sake of it you want people who reach
+different conclusions from you but where
+you respect the Integrity of their
+thought process those are the people who
+really stretch your thinking and I think
+that's what we were trained to do um
+it's what I was trained to do as a
+social science a social scientist is to
+listen to the ideas that made me think
+hard not just the ones that made me feel
+good and to myself with people who
+challenged my thought process not just
+the ones who validated my conclusions
+and I think you know a lot of people
+hear that message and they're like no
+but I don't want to let that like that
+awful perspective into my world I'm like
+no you want to be more nuanced in saying
+who are the people where before I knew
+what their answer was I would be
+impressed with the depth and the
+thoroughness of their reflection and
+their analysis I should be following
+those people and learning from them
+regardless of the the high hypotheses
+that they generate and the results that
+they share I'm so glad that you
+mentioned the um importance of following
+people that you disagree with I think
+one thing that we have to highlight and
+I'm hoping will maybe even emerge from
+this conversation is that follows are
+not endorsements and and this is
+actually a real problem I mean there are
+academics who have lost their jobs not
+necessarily for following certain
+accounts but for um commenting on
+certain common threads maybe even aik
+likee is a is a slightly different
+category because it's as the name
+suggests it's a like it's it sounds like
+and it's thought of as a vote of
+approval of what's there yeah but when
+one's options are just um you know a
+heart uh a follow or no heart no follow
+um you know I was a big fan of the
+thumbs up thumbs down I kind of like the
+thumbs up thumbs down because at least
+you have that you have an option to to
+um to descent um without getting into
+online comment battles and things of
+that sort but um listen i' I've had um
+uh people ask me why do you follow so
+and so because follows are also seen as
+a sign of support because you're adding
+adding followers and presumably uh in
+the algorithm raising prominence to a
+channel but I'm right there with you I
+follow lots of accounts um of people who
+I fundamentally disagree with but I'm
+trying to learn and I'm also trying to
+understand what what their capture
+points are like like why people find
+them so intriguing yes um anyway I'm I'm
+a learner I'm a forager like you so I
+I'm in the same boat and every once in a
+while I think
+it it it's stunning to me I don't know
+if you've ever looked at your like your
+Instagram statistics um but some
+somebody um a colleague of mine actually
+showed me I was I didn't I didn't
+realize you could look at the effect of
+each post on follows and unfollows oh I
+didn't realize that and you know the I
+think my typical ratio might be two or
+three to one for a post so you know I'm
+gaining two or three to two or three
+followers to everyone that I lose the
+idea that I could post anything that
+would cause someone to unfollow me like
+if I said something interesting enough
+that you thought I was worth following
+how could how could one post change your
+mind about that I think you're too
+focused on what I think and maybe not
+paying attention to how I think um was
+my my first reaction to that and then my
+second my second thought was well maybe
+maybe What's Happening Here is like
+people show up and they don't realize
+the foundation of evidence behind the
+total body of work and so one post you
+know strikes them wrong and they think
+this person is not credible or they
+think that this person has um you know
+lost sight of you know of what rigorous
+science is I wonder if you you've had
+that experience too of like I I think I
+I make the mistake of taking for granted
+that anybody who followed me knows that
+if I post something I think it's worth
+thinking about and um you know it's it's
+been carefully studied and I didn't have
+a you know I didn't have a dog in the
+fight I read this research and said this
+cleared the bar not only of an academic
+Journal um but I read the methods and I
+found them sound enough that we ought to
+be discussing this idea um have you had
+that experience too um I certainly have
+and I should say that you know I was
+weaned in an academic culture three
+separate mentors very different styles
+all of whom um were excellent mentors
+but all of whom taught me that you know
+there are phenomenal papers where every
+bit of information in the paper and
+indeed how it's written from start start
+to finish is just watertight and
+incredible and there are other papers
+that are less watertight but
+occasionally there will be papers where
+one data point in a figure is intriguing
+enough to consider following that scent
+Trail in your own work even if the rest
+of the paper is kind of
+eh I mean one data point now that
+doesn't mean taking one data point and
+casting it out to millions of people on
+social media as an actionable item is is
+is valid that's not what I'm saying but
+what I do realize and and I'm realizing
+again now after what you just said is
+that indeed people don't know the
+context under which like what like what
+filters are we working with before we
+bring things forward and I think that um
+you know my belief is that if it's
+grounded firmly in the scientific method
+that um that's the best starting place
+we were talking about that earlier and I
+also understand that scientists differ
+tremendously in how they look at even
+the same data in the same paper so there
+is no governing body that says okay this
+paper means blank the authors have their
+interpretation the students have their
+interpretation in fact the course I used
+to teach um to undergraduates which grew
+into a very large course we would learn
+to ask four questions what's the
+question that the authors were asking
+sometimes a sub question what methods
+did they use what did they find and then
+what did they conclude and does it
+relate back to the original question and
+that simple um breaking out of four
+questions of a study is essentially what
+I do for all studies um but I have my
+way of doing and it's going to from the
+way that other people do it um social
+media uh I think what's interesting is
+that I think there's always going to be
+a core following of a of a given person
+like your your followers that they're
+going to trust you know not necessarily
+across the board but there there's a
+general acceptance of ideas coming
+through I think that on social media
+it's hard to strike a balance between
+setting the whole context and the action
+will takeaways I get criticized a lot
+for not being concise enough and I agree
+but I but I also get criticized for
+putting things taking things out of cont
+yes so uh such a tight rope walk it's a
+tight rope walk and it's always going to
+be a tight RPP walk and so I'm going to
+just you know keep going and I know you
+will too um and and listen I I'm there's
+there's some kids out there it's surely
+not going to be that that are going to
+take our jobs eventually and um and
+we'll find a way to do it much better
+who knows through AI or something that
+might be robots um I feel like this is
+an appropriate place to ask about
+something else since we're talking about
+sort of perception of of of others and
+and gleaning information overcoming
+blind spots it's something that you've
+written about some years ago now I guess
+it would be almost eight years ago now
+um about
+authenticity um you know the word
+authenticity is is such a mindfield such
+a mindfield I was going to say such has
+such a gravit positive gravitational
+pull like oh they're really authentic as
+opposed to what's the opposite of
+authentic fake right but um I think we
+could all learn to draw some lines
+between authenticity and oversharing
+right how do we gauge authenticity and
+we can refer people to that article you
+wrote some years ago I think um you may
+have written it differently where to be
+written today but you talked in that
+article about somebody who essentially
+decided to tell everyone that he worked
+with all the things that he was
+interested in um uh doing with them
+relating to them and it did not serve
+him well okay so that's authen right and
+so then there's this um this notion of
+benevolent deception in order to
+preserve relationship and in importantly
+um it it brought about a word that we
+don't hear about very often but that I I
+rather like which is etiquette like
+there's so for social media by the way I
+apply classroom rules I'll tolerate any
+comment in the comment section but not
+the sort of comment that I wouldn't
+tolerate in a classroom if you start
+insulting other you can insult me but if
+you want to insult other people I'm not
+going to tolerate that so um that's
+where I draw the line classroom rules
+there's an etiquette and I think that um
+etiquette is important so how do we
+balance
+authenticity
+with etiquette and also with preserving
+one's uh uh one's public life or private
+or private life right authenticity at
+home seems important you could be your
+complete self at home except when you
+want to you know physically hit your
+sister or brother because they ate your
+ice cream that's not the right kind of
+authenticity no no it isn't I think well
+there I think it's such a rich and
+complicated topic I think F first thing
+is like I I don't want people to be
+disingenuous ever but I have a real
+problem with people saying as an excuse
+for disrespectful Behavior well I was
+just being myself um I think David
+sedera said yes but yourself is an
+ so good so good and I think I
+think what people forget is that we have
+we all have multiple selves right you
+you I mean You' you've you've known this
+your whole career um we all have
+multiple identities we also could think
+about yourself as your thoughts your
+emotions um your values your personality
+so which facet of yourself are you
+trying to be true to um I would argue
+that authenticity without boundaries is
+careless authenticity without empathy is
+selfish and part of being authentic is
+caring about other people's values that
+should be one of your values so what
+that means concretely is don't think we
+should worry about being authentic to
+what we're thinking and feeling in any
+given moment I think what we want to ask
+is what I'm about to do or say
+consistent with my principles and
+sometimes that means you will be false
+to your personality in order to be true
+to your values sometimes that means you
+will you will feel like you're not
+honoring your thought or your emotion in
+the moment um but you're doing that with
+a broader view toward who is the person
+that I want to be there was a cultural
+critic Lionel trilling who wrote about
+the idea of sincerity as opposed to
+authenticity and I really like this
+distinction he said when when you when
+you try to think about being authentic
+you're trying to bring the inside out
+and to point Andrew that's not always
+appropriate or effective he said
+sincerity is a little bit more about
+bringing the outside in so pay attention
+to the person you claim to be and then
+try to become that
+person and that was a little bit of an
+aha moment for me I realized you know
+there there're all these people who say
+well you should you know you should you
+should walk your talk
+and I think that's good advice I might
+even go a step further and say you know
+maybe you should only talk it if you're
+already walking
+it maybe maybe that would help us avoid
+hypocrisy but I think the the the
+fundamental message here is that uh we
+we all we we all could be authentic to
+one part of ourselves and inauthentic to
+another part and I think the most
+important part is to ask what do I stand
+for and if I'm what I'm about to
+communicate is not consistent with that
+then maybe maybe maybe I could self-
+censor such great advice and um I
+suppose uh one has to wonder about the
+the role of a emotional states you know
+I think there are
+career-ending mistakes that people make
+in a moment um especially online
+nowadays and by the way this is not just
+for people who are already established
+in their career I've heard stories and
+there seem to be more and more of these
+in the news of of for instance you know
+videos of things that people said some
+years earlier getting them ejected from
+college um a guest on Lex Friedman's
+podcast who works in the Securities
+World said that one of the lessons that
+he teaches his kids is to not film
+themselves doing bad things but in and
+of course also not to do bad things but
+in general to just not film themselves
+doing anything because of his
+understanding of the risk of of doing
+that and we don't want to create a
+paranoia but um gosh I mean who you are
+when you're 14 is a very different
+person than who you are when you're 27
+and when you're 50 so I hope so you know
+and um
+so yeah I think you know balancing
+authenticity across the lifespan and
+we're expecting young minds to do this
+and clearly older Minds can't do it
+either I mean I I this is a pretty
+well-known case of a chair of a major
+Psy the major Psychiatry Department um
+we won't name the university but um
+basically lost his job for a single
+tweet he just was not being thoughtful
+in fact he was being um really um like
+numb to to other people and lost his job
+and and I think he Pro I don't know him
+um and it was obvious why he lost it I
+don't think it was debatable but um gosh
+you think about somebody who's a chair
+of Psychiatry which means they're a
+psychiatrist which means they're trained
+to think about
+thinking and there you go I it's amazing
+how common this is and I think one of
+the things that's fascinating to me is I
+guess this this goes back to something
+we were talking about a moment ago
+but I I think that when when we
+communicate we have access to the sum
+total of all of our thoughts and
+everything we've ever ever said that we
+can remember and we forget that other
+people only have a snapshot and so one
+of the questions I I like to ask is if
+this was the only post that somebody saw
+of mine would I be proud of it would it
+communicate who I am and who I aspire to
+be oh that's so good if the answer is no
+maybe I should pause before I put that
+out there that that is excellent advice
+if it were the only post like your one
+and only representing you oh fantastic
+that now that could be paralyzing if
+you're a perfectionist you'll never post
+but I think for somebody who's posting
+regularly um it's a good filter to just
+ask um am I you know am I being
+thoughtful
+enough so good I won't add anything to
+that just say I'll just say so so good
+let's talk about potential
+I was in junior high school and I
+remember having a social studies teacher
+who she just would go on and on about
+potential she had a special program
+after school you could get involved
+potential potential potential um and we
+hear about this and you know we have
+untapped potential you hear we're only
+operating at 40% of our abilities you
+know people will say that um the
+implication is that we have reservoirs
+of potential that we're just not
+accessing because we're not doing the
+right things thinking the right things
+um I know you've now resarch this topic
+extensively you have a new book on this
+topic um tell us about potential like do
+we all have huge reservoirs of potential
+that we are not accessing and of course
+I and everyone else wants to know how
+can we access those but maybe you could
+also tell us some of the myths around
+potential and yeah tell us about tell us
+about potential such a such a uh sticky
+topic for all the right reasons thank
+you I uh you know it's one of those
+things where you you've had this
+experience I'm sure many times where
+you start thinking and talking about a
+topic and you realize it's it's been
+your whole life but you didn't see it
+until then uh and I feel that way about
+potential I think that I've been
+passionate about helping people achieve
+their potential as long as I can
+remember I think every every goal I've
+ever set hasn't been about stretching my
+potential in one way or another um or at
+least realizing it and what I've become
+so struck by as I've studied this topic
+is we all have hidden potential but we
+don't know how to unlock it so why do we
+often underestimate our own potential um
+we judge ourselves by by our starting
+abilities um and this is more common for
+people with fixed mindsets but even
+people with growth mindsets um you try a
+new skill it doesn't go well and you
+think this is not for me I'm not cut out
+for this um and then it gets worse when
+other people also you know you're not
+just underestimating yourself you're
+also being under underestimated by
+others other people watch you and say
+yeah you don't have the you know you're
+not a prodigy um you're not a natural
+you don't have the talent that it takes
+and I think the big myth there is that
+um raw talent is the most important
+driver of How High people climb um it's
+not motivation and opportunity uh matter
+more than raw ability for growth
+motivation and opportunity yeah um you
+know obviously you know everybody starts
+at a different point um but how close
+you come to your potential is much more
+about the character skills you cultivate
+um to to improve it improving over time
+and then whether you're in a situation
+where you know you you have access to
+the knowledge that you need and the
+tools you need to keep growing and so
+you know a concrete example of this for
+me is um when I when I started diving I
+was way too late uh I picked it up as a
+teenager uh a lot of the elite divers in
+the world start by five
+goodness and actually in China they're
+they're handpicked by for body type and
+sent to a version of diving boarding
+school where they don't even teach kids
+how to swim uh they tie a rope around
+them so that they can just pull them
+back after after they they hit the water
+in the deep end what part of their body
+they tie a rope around uh I think it's
+their waist so they're diving with a
+rope so that when they get in the water
+they're not wasting any energy exactly
+they're just being dragged through the
+water and out that's uh that's my
+understanding of it um wow but PR okay
+they have to walk they have to climb
+yeah okay so there a bunch of other
+things they have to do yeah but the the
+the swimming apparently is very
+secondary anyway um so I started really
+late and I
+lacked most of the things that you would
+want as a diver um I I couldn't touch my
+toes without bending my knees uh my
+teammates called me Frankenstein because
+I was so stiff when I walked uh so
+lacking the flexibility I have no rhythm
+my coach brought a metronome to practice
+one day and I couldn't even keep the
+beat uh so you know you think about
+diving as a sport of Grace nope and then
+I also couldn't jump and I couldn't
+twist either and so it's like you're
+missing the explosive power you don't
+have the the atticism um and I think if
+I had if I had just looked at those
+abilities I had no business being a
+diver and in fact no business being an
+athlete I'd already been cut from the
+Middle School basketball team three
+times I didn't make the high school
+soccer team those were the two sports I
+had poured a decade into like this was
+going nowhere um
+Eric just the most incredible coach I
+could ever imagine he said to me on the
+first day of practice uh he said um you
+know yes you're missing all these things
+but I believe if you if you pour
+yourself into this sport that you could
+be a state finalist by the time you
+finish high school and he saw more
+potential in me than I saw in myself and
+that just lit a fire under
+me and um you know what that translated
+into is a lot of the behaviors that that
+you and I have both studied um you know
+setting specific difficult goals for I
+want to learn these Dives that seat to
+reach um for uh you know I want to
+increase my score over the next three
+meets by 10 points um for I want to
+learn how to you know all my limitations
+notwithstanding one thing that I can
+master that I have total control over is
+how clean I go into the water um I can
+get a rip entry so that there's no
+splash and that's the most important
+part of a dive and one of the greatest
+compliments I ever got as a diver was I
+came out of a meet in um it was a couple
+years in I think I was maybe a junior in
+high school and uh one of the judges
+turned to Eric and said all he can do is
+rip and Eric said
+so like yes it's awesome it's almost
+like saying all can do is win you know
+it yeah it was it was a great backhanded
+compliment but Eric was like listen he
+made the dive it has a degree of
+difficulty maybe he didn't jump as high
+as he wanted maybe his tight his tuck
+wasn't as tight as he wanted um but at
+the end of the day like that dive
+disappeared straight up and down into
+the water you can't not give that a
+seven um and that ended up serving me
+really well and so I think the the
+broader lesson here for me was Eric said
+to me um actually last year uh I never
+thought about this he said uh I never
+got close to even qualifying for Olympic
+trials like I did not have the talent to
+to be that good but I got way better
+than I ever expected and Eric said to me
+he said looking back uh he said you got
+further with less Talent than every any
+diver I've ever coached and that was so
+meaningful to me and what it reminded me
+was um my proudest accomplishments were
+not in the areas where I started out
+with the most Talent they were in the
+areas where I had overcome the most
+obstacles and I think that to me is um
+really what drives people around
+potential is to say um it's not
+performance that's motivating it's a
+sense of
+progress I love that story and I and I
+couldn't agree more I mean I think um
+Lord knows my favorite Topic in science
+is the course I performed at least after
+my freshman year which was abysmal um
+least well in the phase when I was doing
+well and what class was it neural
+development I now teach neural
+development neural development how bad
+were you at it at first uh okay well I
+have to put it in context my high school
+and freshman year of college were were
+abysmal right I basically no place being
+there I can only thank my high school
+girlfriend for um being so wonderful
+that I followed her off to college and
+ended up there um left after my freshman
+year came back and then at that point it
+was like a step function I worked out of
+fear and excitement and love of the
+material um I I was a straight A student
+thereafter but in my senior year senior
+year excuse me I took a course in neural
+development which was extremely
+challenging um and I a B+ and that B+
+still gets me you know but it's a topic
+that I love the most it's what I did my
+um graduate thesis on it's what I
+teached um at Stanford among other
+topics and um and I like to think now I
+have I guess humility had considerable
+Mastery over over the the material but
+it's because I didn't do as well as I
+would have liked and I applied myself so
+much and I think that it just didn't
+come naturally to me and then eventually
+over time you you kind of get it or you
+get um you get it um so it's it but it's
+still my favorite topic because because
+it was that friction point right it's
+the ratcheting through and there's
+something I don't know that's just so
+intrinsically satisfying to me I used to
+watch my Bulldog Mastiff Costello like
+chewing on a bone or when he was on a
+brick cuz you know he had a kind of a
+Homer Simpson brain about his object
+choice to chew on and he and he just
+looked like he was in just total Bliss
+it was like this effort um combined with
+some intrinsic pleasure of the process
+and so I think that when one is
+ratcheting through something that's hard
+it feels so good that it's almost better
+than the outcome like it it it is better
+than the outcome I I think it is and you
+know it's it's fascinating because this
+is why I'm always bothered by people
+saying play to your strengths because if
+you do that you will gravitate to toward
+the things that come naturally to you
+and you're going to miss out on the very
+often the the skill that was hard for
+you to learn to your point is one that
+you end up with greater Mastery over
+because you had to put in the extra
+effort and you end up deriving more more
+satisfaction out of the fact that you
+know I this was really tough and I
+figured it out um you know implicit in
+your story um and maybe partially
+explicit in in some parts um when I was
+when I was looking at the character
+skills that help people realize their
+potential um and really fuel unexpected
+growth um I I ended up finding three
+that I think are underd discussed and um
+and well supported by science um I think
+that that basically if you want to reach
+your potential or um you know achieve
+more than you think you're capable of
+we're looking at becoming a creature of
+discomfort um and embracing things that
+are unpleasant or awkward for you uh
+that would be the first thing the second
+is um is being a sponge and soaking up
+new information and also filing
+filtering out what might not be useful
+and then the third is um is being an
+imperfectionist which is knowing when to
+aim for excellence and when to settle
+for good and I I hear all of those
+themes in your story um I you know that
+was OB obviously uncomfortable like you
+got to B+ you don't want to do any more
+neur development like not at all it was
+it was so frustrating and so exciting to
+me at the same time and then I went
+everything I did in the five or seven
+years that followed was all about
+learning more about this topic because
+and it wasn't about performing well or
+proving myself I just I I love the
+material so much more because of how
+challenging it was and I'm grateful to
+you Ben ree the professor at UC Santa
+Barbara incredible neuron anatomist and
+teacher of neural development and and
+laboratory scientist because um you know
+I think had gotten an an a I don't know
+that I would have fallen in love with it
+in the same way isn't that weird you
+wouldn't have had to work at it to
+discover what was fun about it I imagine
+no absolutely and it's still one of my
+favorite topics to teach um and learn
+about so you mentioned discomfort being
+a sponge SL filter if I got that right Y
+and an
+imperfectionist um yeah tell me more
+about the imperfectionist piece because
+I feel like um I've had students in my
+lab and I've known people in other
+domains of life that they're they're
+absolutely paranoid about shipping
+something out for the world to see it
+and of course like no one wants to put
+stuff out into the world that isn't
+right and God forbid could be wrong but
+um or that's going to embarrass us so
+you can understand why people are
+perfectionists but I never really
+understood the the uh the extreme
+perfectionists like how do they ever do
+anything and and are they happy people
+because I can't imagine that they are no
+I mean this is so Thomas Curran I think
+is the world's leadest leading
+psychologist studying perfectionism and
+if you look at his meta analyses uh
+perfectionism is a recipe for Burnout
+and depression and anxiety because
+you're constantly comparing yourself to
+an ideal that's unachievable um
+perfectionists um are not they do get
+better grades in school slightly but
+they don't do any better at work than
+their peers because I think in school
+you have a predictable outcome uh you
+have a general sense of what's going to
+be on a test and if you study hard
+enough you can come closer to the A+
+whereas at work performance is much more
+nebulous and so what happens to
+perfectionists a lot of times is they
+end up um optimizing the things that are
+predictable and controllable and then
+you know sort of missing the forest and
+the trees and I think the you know the
+the antidotes um as far as I know really
+have to to do with calibration so you
+know I talked earlier about um how I
+like to ask for a zero to 10 to find out
+you know am I in the ballpark or not
+well one of my biggest liabilities as as
+a diver was I was never satisfed with my
+score and one day Eric said to me you
+know you you hear Olympic judges talk
+about or commentators talk about the
+perfect 10 that's a misnomer um if you
+look at the diving role book a 10 is for
+excellence not for Perfection there's no
+such thing as a Flawless dive I can look
+at Dives that have gotten a straight
+tens and point out 19 things that were
+wrong with them but they were excellent
+and so then we had to define the
+standards of excellence so what I have
+as a recovering perfectionist somebody
+who you know just beat myself up
+constantly in fact I got um we paper
+plate Awards on my swim team and one
+year I was given the if only award and
+there's a little cartoon in me and it
+says if only I had pointed my left pinky
+toe I would have gotten an eight and a
+half instead of an eight and that was
+like the story of my my diving career
+and I did not want to be that person
+anymore and so one of the things I've
+learned to do is to when I start
+anything um you know if I sit down to
+write a book I'm aiming for a nine uh
+and the reason for that is I'm going to
+pour a couple years of you know my work
+life into this topic um you know
+hopefully a lot of people are going to
+read it and I want to make sure it's
+truly the best work I can produce social
+media post I'm okay with a seven like if
+I'm only shooting for a nine I'm not
+going to post very often because you're
+nine you're sealing for nine is or your
+threshold for nine is is so exceedingly
+high high yeah and I want it to keep
+getting higher over time so my idea of a
+nine today is much more challenging than
+it was 10 years ago and I think this is
+this is what people probably don't do
+enough um especially if you're an
+extreme perfectionist is they don't
+realize okay um Let me let me figure out
+how important this task is and then for
+this task a six is sufficient uh so that
+then I can pour my energy into you know
+pulling the the seven and a half toward
+a nine where it really matters um and
+inevitably if you don't do that what you
+will do is you will get a bunch of nines
+on things that are completely trivial I
+went to a high school where we had a
+couple kids get um perfect on the SAT
+they were the big like Center old list
+of all the early admissions to all the
+fancy IV League schools I definitely was
+not on that list I don't even know if I
+yeah I don't even know if I was anywhere
+uh near that list um probably not um and
+some of them have gone on to have
+terrific lives and seem pretty happy and
+I know a number of them and in contact
+with them and um I think for some of
+them that performed exceedingly well on
+standardized tests early on um I hear a
+bit more dismay in their in their
+current life not all but um is there I
+have to imagine there are data on his
+sort of early high performance being a
+seed for challenges later on obviously
+you don't want the the opposite um the
+sort of what I guess they refer to now
+is a you know complete Failure to Launch
+you know people not meeting the the
+mileston towards being um
+self-sufficient adults but um yeah what
+are some of the dangers of success when
+thinking about realizing one's larger
+potential
+oh that's such an interesting question
+um I
+think yeah I think the data on this go
+both ways so you know some early success
+is um you know it's a motivator it
+builds the kind of momentum you were
+talking about earlier um you know like
+there's a goal setting researchers like
+lock and leam have talked about um The
+High Performance Cycle where you hit a
+goal and then that builds your
+confidence and then you set a more
+ambitious goal and then you reach it and
+there's this upward spiral over time but
+there's also a of evidence that
+achieving your goals can make you
+complacent uh and there's a sometimes
+it's called The Fat Cat syndrome where
+where you end up resting on your laurels
+and then there are also competency traps
+where you get good at something and then
+you keep doing it the way you've always
+done it and you don't realize the world
+is changed around you like I'm I'm
+allergic to the idea of best practices
+like the moment you call a practice best
+you've created an illusion that you're
+done and the moment like think about um
+pre-co like a lot of companies had
+really you know what they thought were
+effective models for collaboration and
+all of a sudden their best practices are
+not feasible because everybody's working
+remotely uh and they've got to throw
+that out the window and look for better
+practices for an evolved world so I
+think
+um those are the things I worry about
+most with early
+success uh I think that one of the
+things I would love to see more people
+do when it comes to reaching potential
+is um is to figure out what does my
+failure budget look like so um I tell
+you my experience on this um you know it
+started I wrote I wrote a first book um
+gave a TED Talk and pretty soon felt
+like I was spending 80% of my time
+saying things I already knew and I was
+getting typ cast I'm like I'm not
+learning and growing but I'm also not I
+don't feel like I'm contributing new
+knowledge to the world what am I going
+to do about that and 20 rolls around I'm
+like you know what this I'm going to
+start a podcast and that will be my you
+know my learning mechanism
+and I didn't know if it was going to
+work I didn't know how the medium would
+work for me I didn't know if people were
+going to want to listen to my voice I
+certainly don't um maybe Morgan Freeman
+likes the sound of his own voice I like
+I like listening to your podcast thank I
+also enjoy listening to yours but
+you I think everybody hates the sound of
+their voice I just I just wasn't sure
+for a lot of reasons whether it was
+going to work um and then I thought
+about it and I realized well all of the
+the pivotal moments in my career have
+come from taking a
+risk and I thought that I needed to
+build the confidence in order to do it
+and I was reflecting on goal setting
+research as as one does and realized you
+know like the confidence is going to
+come through doing it um and so let me
+try it and I guess what I took away was
+if I don't if I never fail it means I'm
+not challenging myself I'm not embracing
+discomfort um I'm not being enough of an
+imperfectionist so so um I set a I
+actually set a goal that I would start
+at least one project every year that
+didn't succeed and let's be clear I'm
+not aiming for failure what I'm doing is
+is creating an acceptable zone of
+failure to know that that's going to
+motivate some risk-taking and some
+experimentation and hopefully some
+growth and I know it's hard for a lot of
+people to do this in their lives
+especially if you have a you know a
+super demanding boss um but I think
+we're we're all better off from a you
+know a growth in potential standpoint if
+we've got you know if you if you succeed
+on 90% of your projects that should be a
+hugely successful year if you succeed on
+100% I think you're aiming too low what
+are some of the projects that uh you are
+currently spinning in the back of your
+mind that would be fun but uh if you're
+willing to share um yeah that for you
+still strike a little bit of a of an
+anxiety cord like oh no like are you um
+I don't know are you a musician do you
+not are car tun can't keep a beat um are
+you thinking about um becoming a
+musician or exploring playing music I me
+what how the reason I ask it that way is
+um how far into your discomfort Zone do
+you reach in order to um in order to
+challenge yourself because I think that
+everyone needs to have thresholds like
+there are a lot of things that yeah I
+wish I could play a musical instrument
+frankly but I'm I'm not that motivated
+to do it mostly because I enjoy hearing
+other people play music so much that I'm
+perfectly happy I'm saded yeah there's
+also enough good music out there you
+don't have to create yeah there's
+definitely a lot of great music yeah um
+so I think there's like a there's a
+micro and a macro version of this so on
+the micro side um in the past year um I
+I did this work Life podcast for five
+years where I was you know taking the
+core of my organizational psychology
+work and trying to take on a topic and
+and make it interesting and useful to
+people and then realizing I was feeling
+constrained just to focus on work and as
+a psychologist there are lots of other
+things I want to take on and so we
+expanded into um this second show
+rethinking and I have some experiments
+I'm tempted to try but I've been really
+hesitant to do them so um did you watch
+wrestling growing up ever professional
+wrestling um I did watch a little bit of
+it and then for whatever reason in the
+last year of my good friend Rick Rubin
+who's he's like not obsessed but he is a
+real devotee he's a fan of professional
+wrestling he had me watch some um WWE
+but even aew he was explaining that it's
+basically physical drama he's explaining
+why it's so intriguing to him and so
+informative to him and then uh I'm a big
+fan of of uh certain genre of music and
+large Rickson from ranid is a is a huge
+wrestling fan so now got multiple people
+that I've come into contact with are
+like telling me all this stuff about
+wrestling so wrestling seems to be
+cropping up more and more all right so I
+don't know the first thing about
+wrestling I think I caught it a few
+times as a kid likewise it was Hulk
+Hogan and a few others passed across
+screen yeah yep yep but the the thing
+that I remember was loving the tag team
+matches where you know somebody would
+get overpowered and then they pull in
+somebody to help I think it would be so
+interesting if there was a podcast where
+you take is issues that people
+fundamentally disagree on and you start
+a debate and then somebody can tag in if
+they want to challenge an argument and
+so instead of concent concentrating on
+the particular guests you have you
+basically have a problem you're trying
+to you know to get to the roots of and
+you're going to have all these people
+jump in and and hopefully build toward a
+more insightful perspective on it I have
+no idea if this is going to work I'd
+really love to try it and this is the
+first time I've spoken out loud about it
+because I'm like I I don't know that I
+want to like that I want to see that
+crash and burn and yet like why not like
+what's the risk I think it's so cool it
+be fun right yeah what what topics are
+are uh are you thinking about covering
+because I can think of some pretty
+pretty controversial topics um but I
+want to know what the ones you're
+thinking about well I mean I literally
+just I mean I'm thinking out loud here
+but one one that I think on the
+controversial front that would be could
+be really rich is um to think about
+policies for Trans athletes in sports
+that's a controversial topic usually
+controversial but also I've I've talked
+to some experts on this I I've talked to
+some trans athletes um and the people
+who are deep in this do not know what
+they think the policy should be and so I
+I think actually hearing them talk and
+you know understanding the complexity of
+those issues and then you know maybe
+hammering out what what's a policy you
+would propose for schools what would you
+want for you know for Olympic events um
+I I just think that would be fascinating
+and I'd love to I'd love to moderate
+that discussion goodness uh I may would
+I wouldn't I don't into that I'm glad
+you would I wouldn't that seems like one
+of the most barbed wire topics one could
+ever um embark on which is exactly why
+I'm going to put in my vote you
+absolutely should do this podcast I
+think it's an amazing idea actually
+folks put in the comment section on
+YouTube whether or not Adam should do
+this podcast and and that topic in
+particular I think it would be amazing
+because um one thing that I keep coming
+back to in my own mind is that a lot of
+the controversies out there stem from
+the fact that we very often have
+individuals pitted against individuals
+yes and there's so much lost in that um
+and I think about science and going back
+to the scientific method where we have
+subfields pitted against subfields when
+when you talk about a field like there
+was huge controversy over the structure
+of DNA and it wasn't one individual
+against another what you had are small
+groups different camps and there was
+some partial overlap there's also you
+know if you read the double helix there
+was also a lot of uh uh complicated
+Behavior you people people entering
+romantic relationships just to G
+information from the other side you know
+human beings not not at their finest um
+but in any event small panels arguing
+competing teams competing I think is um
+far more interesting and informative
+than individuals you know butting heads
+I think so too and I think um you know
+another another one that I think would
+be really interesting I mean I'm like
+people always say great minds think
+alike no great minds challenge each
+other to think differently and we just
+don't do enough of that so
+I I've been thinking a lot politically
+like what if we brought together a bunch
+of people um who are not ideologues but
+are really interested in pragmatic
+policy solutions to rewrite the
+Constitution if we were going to build
+one today you'd like to tackle big stuff
+I just I know I love it I love it it's a
+compliment it's a compliment I mean what
+are the odds like I said earlier no weak
+sauce no week sauce like you just you're
+you go right for it I mean these listen
+these are the issues that people are
+really activated by because these are
+really core issues they get down to the
+autonomic nervous system they're in the
+hypothalamus as we say but I don't think
+they should be like I look at these
+topics and think I just want to get it
+right like I don't have a vested
+interest in what the model should be I
+just know that even the wisest people of
+250 years ago were not prepared to
+anticipate the world we live in today
+and we ought to be constantly like I
+don't know I don't think you should live
+in a world where you affirm your beliefs
+uh I think the only way you learn is by
+continually evolving your beliefs and so
+I guess I'm trying to figure out more
+ways to catalyze that around issues
+people care about but I don't care about
+the issues I care about the stretching
+of thinking and the improving the way
+that the world works well I'll tell you
+if you decide to do this podcast with
+the tag team form I love that you
+gleaned it from watching wrestling a
+couple of times um around these uh very
+controversial issues uh I promise you
+that will be one of the most popular and
+important podcasts on the planet Earth
+might be podcast on other planets I hear
+that they're you know galaxies far far
+away with a they may have podcast too
+may have had them for much longer than
+we have but um that's uh that's a winner
+yeah well maybe maybe I'll try it as a
+little experiment on the rethinking feed
+and see if it's an unmitigated
+disaster well you know where my vote
+lies I I appreciate that so okay so to
+go back to your question for a second on
+the macro side I've always thought it
+would be fun to try to write a Sci-Fi
+novel and the question I'm wrestling
+with right now is that a good use of my
+time like there are great sci-fi writers
+out there there aren't that many social
+scientists communicating about the
+topics that I do and it feels like it
+might be I don't know I'm like this
+is it might be too much of a diversion
+then again uh according to your words um
+you had no talent in diving but you
+exceeded all all uh performance metrics
+um by by a considerable amount uh
+through motivation and um and
+opportunity I get that right um I vote
+Yes I'm not I haven't read much sci-fi
+maybe I need to read read more sci-fi
+are you a fan of sci-fi I love sci-fi
+it's it's one of my favorite ways to
+imagine a better world and also you know
+prevent a worse one from emerging but I
+don't know there's a there's a part of
+me that thinks all right there's a
+there's Ru Bernstein and colleagues uh
+did this do you know this research on um
+Nobel prize winning scientists and what
+differentiates them them from their
+peers uh no but uh being the son of a
+physicist and having been surrounded by
+just by circumstance a number of Nobel
+Prize winners uh when I was a kid young
+kid I'm very curious to know what what
+the This research says I mean there
+there's there are many themes you could
+glean from it but the the thing that
+really jumped out at me is uh the Nobel
+Prize winners are more likely to have
+artistic Hobbies H Fineman certainly did
+yep um I mean there's a long list of
+them but if you break it down in the
+data it was um they're twice as likely
+as their peers to play a musical
+instrument they're seven times as likely
+to draw a paint they're 12 times as
+likely to do um poetry or fiction
+creative writing and get this 22 times
+as likely as their peers 22 to dance act
+or yes perform as
+magicians as a former magician I was
+very excited by this yeah well I wasn't
+going to ask about magic but let's talk
+about it I was on a vacation with every
+year I take my sister to New York for
+her birthday and my birthday cuz our
+birthdays are close together and we went
+and saw a magician Mentalist um by the
+name of aie wind um Azie I think is the
+correct pronounciation um who just just
+like the last time I saw him absolutely
+blew my mind I there's no way it's not
+magic of course I know it's not magic
+but it's um that but my understanding is
+that there are some things that he and
+other great mentalists and magicians do
+where they are not absolutely certain of
+the outcome they're they're playing it's
+probabilistic um and so there's a risk
+and a thrill for them too um and that
+they're also creating memories and
+erasing memories and um that's something
+that we I may host aie on the podcast
+because he's very effective at creating
+memories and erasing memories that's a
+lot of what he does and he has tactics
+to do that in any event um I wasn't
+going to ask about magic but I know that
+you were a professional magician at at
+one point in your life um and that you
+you did this presumably because you
+enjoyed doing it um but getting beyond
+the the of pull the rabbit out of the
+hat or pick or identify the card that
+the person picked out of the the
+shuffled stack um what is it and what
+was it about magic that intrigues you
+does it inform anything about um the
+work that you do now it does yeah I yeah
+I think it when I started I was 12 and I
+was just it was just fun and I was
+looking for a way to entertain other
+people and entertain myself in the
+process and then you know became a
+challenge can I learn this new skill and
+can I can I master this trick I think um
+nerdiest thing I did in college was I
+started a magic club with David Quang
+who is a a stellar magician and Cru
+verbalist as he calls it crus verbalist
+he does um magic crossword puzzles
+essentially that I I can't do it justice
+you have to see it it's unreal um and I
+watched him for you know our first
+performance together and realized one of
+us is going to make it as a magician and
+it's not me uh he's he's outstanding
+anyway um the way it figures into my
+work now is I think so much of good
+science communication is
+misdirection and it's the same skill I
+Ed as magician if I told you that the
+the card you picked was about to
+disappear from the deck and appear on
+the window you would not be nearly as
+intrigued as if it happened by surprise
+and I think the same is true when when
+we communicate knowledge I think it's
+it's actually why so many of my posts
+you flagged this earlier so many of my
+posts start with um you know this thing
+is not what you think it's actually this
+other thing um I think that you know
+challenging conventional Wis questioning
+assumptions is is what surprises people
+um and then leads them to think either I
+have something to learn or Oh no I got
+to put up a shield because my beliefs
+are being um challenged or attacked and
+I think the the art form of magic was
+always about creating a surprise that
+would Delight people um as opposed to
+Leading people to feel like they were
+tricked or duped or manipulated and so I
+think the the challenge for me is to say
+Okay I want to figure out what what do
+we know from Behavioral Science um you
+know mostly f focusing on psychology
+because that's my core expertise um what
+do we know that's actually different
+from most intuition and then how do I
+explain that in a way that surprises
+people but leads them to say oh that's
+so interesting as opposed to that's
+wrong and then want to fight about it
+it's almost as if you give them the
+experience of what you're trying to
+teach them so that the oh that's wrong
+can't uh be the available response yes
+because in Magic you know it's it's um
+everyone knows it's magic just like with
+professional wrestling Folks by the way
+it there's there's some prior
+understanding of of what's going to
+happen maybe they go off script but I
+think that's actually I think part of
+the interest in professional wrestling
+for those that are extreme fans of
+professional wrestling is that they
+almost want to wonder about whether or
+not some of it is not in the plan like
+it's a suspension of of reality that
+they seem to enjoy right because if you
+know something's
+or well we should we should be I should
+be more careful about my language in
+with magic like when I went to see aie I
+mean I I don't think it's actual magic
+but he's able to give the illusion of
+Magic the real illusion is that it's
+magic right it's not the illusion of
+making the card hop to somewhere else in
+the room um and he is phenomenal and I
+highly recommend people go see his show
+if they if they get the opportunity but
+the I think they're doing a documentary
+about him now actually there'll be some
+Netflix stuff as well um
+but it's the illusion that magic exists
+That's so
+exciting um so with science
+communication yeah I always um aim for
+four things I don't always achieve them
+but and I think you do as well uh if I
+may that um a topic be interesting clear
+ideally actionable but not always and
+the the quadfecta is when it's also
+surprising so interesting clear
+actionable and surprising sort of is the
+the ultimate if there's sort of a like a
+oh I didn't realize that but it's it's
+hard to find data points that satisfy
+all four criteria and the surprising is
+the least important by far um I assume
+table Stakes is it's rigorous oh well
+okay sitting underneath all four of
+those points are uh that it's s that
+it's actual science right someone didn't
+just say it right it's not conjecture or
+Theory so that means that there's data
+to support it and that the data were
+collected with with the appropriate
+amount of rigor right so there's a
+there's a reservoir of stuff that sits
+underneath that as a foundation so G
+given the the Baseline of rigor how I
+find what's interesting clear actionable
+and hopefully surprising although I
+would I okay I would make a case there's
+a classic article that Murray Davis
+wrote one of my all-time favorites he
+was a a sociologist who wrote a paper
+called that's interesting and he opened
+the paper by saying um ideas live not
+because they're true but because they're
+interesting which decimated one of my
+core beliefs like I I thought it was
+accuracy that drove people's beliefs and
+he said no ideas live because they're
+interesting
+and then he goes to build an index of
+the interesting to explain when people
+are intrigued and his case is that most
+of interest is surprise and he breaks
+down all the ways that you can turn
+conventional wisdom upside down you can
+say that um something you thought was
+bad was actually good or vice versa you
+can argue that um something you thought
+was homogeneous is actually
+heterogeneous uh you could argue that
+something you thought was individual was
+actually a collective phenomenon or vice
+versa and he he's got this wonderful
+breakdown of of all the ways of being
+interesting and he's the one who made
+the distinction between ideas that
+challenge weakly held assumptions
+intriguing you and strongly held
+assumptions um you know sort of
+offending you but I think from Davis's
+View and I think he's right a huge
+amount of interest is surprise and so
+but I don't think it's the only driver
+of Interest so I might I might take your
+criteria and say okay we start with
+rigor um we want to go to interest
+Clarity and actionability how do we get
+to interest let's build a submodel of
+the factors that drive interest and
+surprise might be it might have the
+biggest beta weight in the regression
+equation um but what else what else
+drives interest I have a couple
+hypotheses I want to hear yours um
+you've been doing this actively um and
+highly effectively Beyond surprise what
+else interests people in your
+content anything that draws on
+self-reflection for them boom I think we
+all have an innate desire to better
+understand ourselves why why we work the
+way we do why we don't work as well as
+we would like to in certain domains like
+some and and cast understanding on on
+our experiences of others too like oh
+now it makes sense like with I'm going
+back to the the kti episodes but we did
+several of them so for um I think it's
+appropriate you know to learn from him
+that narcissism is Envy it represents a
+a extreme deficiency in the pleasure um
+that people narcissists can have an
+extreme pleasure drive but they they
+always feel like they have far less than
+they would like to have and that others
+have far more of it because they don't
+have that same yearning for it right and
+so that narcissism at its core is deep
+envy that to me was like wow you know
+and to to realize that and to Now
+understand that all this discussion that
+you hear out there about narcissist
+everyone calling other people narcissist
+that um there are genuine narcissists
+out there and what they really suffer
+from is an extreme deficit in pleasure
+and they're constantly envious of others
+it reframed everything I thought about
+narcissists about them being overbearing
+which they can be and often are um etc
+etc so I think it's also anything that
+leads to um like oh I can I can I can
+navigate narcissist better with that
+well that I mean that checks all your
+boxes um it's very surprising because
+it's not the way we normally understand
+narcissism but I think you you hit on
+for me what's the maybe even it's at
+least as important as surprise maybe
+more so is
+self-relevance and it doesn't have to be
+actionable right it has to in a lot of
+cases just help you understand or make
+sense of something that's been puzzling
+or that's you know that's um you know
+sort of I I think I'm
+almost always surprised when I say
+something from you know here here's
+here's a synthesis of research here's a
+meta analysis and I think it's kind of
+obvious and people get excited about it
+because it gave them language to
+describe something they had felt but
+they didn't know how to articulate or
+talk about and I think
+that I mean I think this is why most of
+the most popular TED Talks um are about
+human behavior um because people are
+interested in people um and if you learn
+something about you or about others you
+don't have to immediately do anything
+with that uh to find it intriguing and
+even useful um because it enriched your
+worldview a recent guest on this podcast
+we haven't aired it yet but um maybe
+it'll be out by time this this airs was
+with Lisa Feldman Barrett she's um
+psychologist turn neuroscientist right
+St emotion of course yeah and she
+described um in how in certain cultures
+there is a language for subcategories of
+emotions emotional granularity right so
+you know she described a word in
+Japanese I don't recall what the word
+was um that describes the the feeling of
+sadness that one has after getting a
+particularly bad haircut something that
+I don't think you or I uh are familiar
+with but I'm familiar with from my
+experience of of romantic Partners being
+like really unhappy about their haircut
+you're like you're like you're sad but
+there but by having a specific word for
+a specific experience people feel less
+alone and the feeling passes more
+quickly in time and and then she gave
+some other examples uh from German and
+from you know uh Scandinavian um
+languages and so forth and I find this
+so interesting it's like the moment
+people hear that they are not alone in
+an experience there's nothing actionable
+about it but it it creates a cognitive
+shift thereafter in which they suffer
+less um or may feel more connected to
+others I mean I think it's really a
+beautiful example of of exactly what
+you're referring to like when we learn
+about something and we we identify with
+it it's powerful it's very powerful and
+I think um psychologist often say name
+it to tame it um affect labeling is one
+of the most effective emotion regulation
+strategies and when we when we talked
+about distraction and reframing earlier
+I should have said there's a third
+strategy which is literally just to
+describe what you're feeling um it it it
+seems to allow people then to reason
+with and process whatever they're
+feeling as opposed to allowing the
+feeling to control them and I I probably
+got the clearest sense of this in um in
+2021 um I wrote a New York Times article
+on um on languishing um the feeling of
+Matt or
+blah and I have never had anything I any
+article I wrote resonate like this and
+it just I all the the PO the posts that
+tag me were just like it me it me it us
+and it was like the like one and two
+word reactions and I I don't think it
+was the content that mattered to people
+it was the just having the term um all
+of a sudden people realized this was
+originally Cory Keys's research that I
+was referencing um it had been a light
+bulb for me to say there's a if you
+think about the spectrum of well-being
+this is related to your mental illness
+versus mental health distinction um
+those are two extremes of the Continuum
+and on one end we have depression and
+burnout on another end we have you know
+well-being and flourishing languishing
+lives right in the middle as Corey
+describes it it's the absence of
+well-being so you're not depressed you
+still have hope you're not burned out
+you still have energy but you're not at
+Peak functioning you're missing a sense
+of purpose um you feel like you're
+stagnating and you're empty and you know
+there was something about just saying
+the word languishing that led people to
+to realize yeah that's a thing and of
+course we're languishing we're standing
+still in the middle of a a global
+experiment that no one opted into which
+violates all rules of consent um by by
+science last time I checked um but I
+think that that that's something that
+that probably is underrepresented when
+we're trained to communicate as
+scientists to say one of the most
+valuable things we do is we give people
+language to talk about things and I
+think that's a massive part of um of
+your impact is uh this is one of the big
+things I've learned from you Andrew is I
+I I used to be a little bit dismissive
+of um of cognitive Neuroscience in
+particular I thought understanding the
+brain has not taught me that much about
+the mind like being able to you know
+Trace
+um uh let's take a simple example like
+when I read Joe Leo's research being
+able to trace um you know certain um
+amydala responses um you know as the
+root of how people deal with fight or
+flight and and threat I'm like I don't
+know that that helped me that much like
+if I could just describe fight ORF
+flight do I need the amydala and you've
+convinced me I was wrong about that
+because when people have when they
+understand the um the neurological
+substrates of their thoughts feelings
+and actions um they believe them more
+they're like oh like there is a
+mechanism for this it's being produced
+inside my head and even though I can't
+see it um it's there and it can be
+studied with the tools of science um I
+think that's a really big deal and I I
+really regret the fact that I didn't
+spend more time on cognitive
+Neuroscience because I think I'd be a
+better Psy a better psychologist today
+oh well again thanks for the kind words
+I think that um a fortunate evolution in
+our fields or even field if I may um
+over the last 10 years is that whereas
+Neuroscience itself even needs to be
+subdivided into neur anatomy and the
+neurophysiology it's lumped into all
+Neuroscience but it now includes
+psychology computational Neuroscience
+cognitive Neuroscience it's all you know
+I think I I consider us um you know we
+have different perspectives and
+different training obviously but doing a
+lot of the same things um just uh using
+different um different dissection tools
+and different different language based
+tools and listen what you've done uh I
+won't even say masterfully I mean just
+with like extreme virtuosity is to wrap
+your hands around such an enormous
+literature related to psychology I mean
+the human mind and behavior and thought
+processes and emotions and potential and
+you know so many topics and to um and
+to extract the the most valuable gems
+from that literature and communicate
+them in a way that anyone can understand
+and um it's it's an extreme gift uh to
+be able to do that and it's um and it's
+clear it's working because like you
+mentioned this article on languishing
+which we will provide a reference to or
+a link to in our caption because I want
+to go read that now I mean I'm always
+struck by this feeling of like am I I'm
+not tired but you know like I've got
+tons to do but like why do I just want
+to like sit here for and I'm like maybe
+I need to sit here but then you get into
+all the like the well okay but you know
+I need to there's a lot to do there's a
+lot to get up and go I don't want to
+waste my life and yeah rest is good too
+but I think languishing is something
+that like I definitely can resonate with
+that so when I had a bulldog it felt a
+lot easier to do cuz he was always
+languishing but um do you ever just
+languish or are you busy enough that you
+you just feel like you're always a
+forward Center of mass I think everybody
+languishes I think it's part of the
+human condition and I think it might
+even be evolutionarily adaptive because
+I I remember um another sort of uh
+mind-altering idea I remember reading
+Randy nessie's argument that mild
+depression could be evolutionarily
+functional that you know obviously
+clinical depression um is debilitating
+in a lot of ways but you know low-grade
+sadness um Lincoln's Melancholy um we
+know one of one of the things it can do
+is broaden your field of vision um and
+you know for for many people sadness is
+a signal that something is not working
+and it can motivate problem solving um
+it can in some cases um open access to
+New Perspectives um unfortunately those
+potential benefits of sadness are often
+overridden by the motivational cost and
+also the the fact that you now spend all
+this time regulating your sadness and
+wondering why you're sad right and so
+it's it's hard to harness but um I I had
+a similar thought about languishing from
+this perspective to say that you know
+maybe moments of languishing open us up
+to change um when we get stuck uh
+sometimes we realize you have to move
+backward in order to make progress um
+sometimes you have to unlearn things
+that you thought you knew um in order to
+to keep
+growing and um I you know I don't a
+friend of mine said he read my
+languishing piece and he's like you're
+not the languishing type I'm like okay
+maybe everybody's Baseline is different
+like I I think one of the things I'm I'm
+really lucky to is high reserves of
+energy um but for me languishing is like
+I felt like I did nothing today um and
+you know in a typical day like if I'm
+writing a book I should be able to like
+write a thousand words I'm proud of and
+I don't like a single word that I
+produced or I sat at my blinking cursor
+like staring at the computer screen and
+for the eenth time wondered like did
+they call it a cursor because of all the
+writers who've cursed
+it and then I end up like Googling
+what's the like what are the Latin roots
+of the word cursor where did this come
+from and like that is not a good use of
+time it's like that's not forward Mass
+that's like I'm spinning so so good yeah
+I I think everybody languishes um and I
+aspire to do it less often but not never
+love it what does cursor what is the
+root of cursor people will look it up
+put hey folks put it in the put it in
+the uh comments on YouTube um I did I
+did look it up oh good okay you'll tell
+us now no I I feel like there's a
+there's a footnote in Hidden potential
+and I'm trying to remember it comes from
+um kurer I think and um the cursor um
+originally came NOP I don't want to do
+it I'm going to skip it I don't remember
+this is your Hipp your hippocampus is
+smart enough to have discarded that
+information and you have more important
+things to do forgive me for asking the
+question folks put in the comments on
+YouTube so good I have one more question
+about potential uh you have children
+correct three um and a lot of our
+listeners either are children or
+children um and even for those that
+don't have children I'm curious with the
+vast array of knowledge that you now
+have about potential and the fact that
+kids are these incredible sponges right
+they I mean they they certainly
+experience discomfort we know that they
+are sponges we absolutely know that
+sometimes they're filters we try and
+teach them to be
+filters and hopefully they are
+imperfectionists maybe there are kids
+that are just perfectionist by default
+but have to imagine that they aren't
+because standards come about when we
+become aware of other people's
+performance
+right what sorts of messages do
+you recommend parents give their kids
+and what sorts of messages are you
+actually implementing that perhaps are
+different than you uh were prior to
+researching and writing your book on
+potential oh interesting well the first
+thing I should say is um Becky Kennedy
+Dr Becky is my favorite source of of
+insight on parenting and she's changed
+the way I think of the way I think about
+a lot of what I do with our kids um but
+my wife Allison is she her instincts
+about effective parenting are so
+sophisticated I feel like every day I
+learned something from watching her
+communicate with our kids and so I I
+came in thinking all right I'm going to
+write this book about potential I'm not
+going to do a parenting chapter because
+I want everything to be relevant to
+parents and um sure enough there's a
+chapter that had nothing to do with
+parenting where I like oh I actually um
+I'm reading this research and there was
+a moment where I did something well and
+I didn't even mean to do it um and this
+is something that I think everyone um
+probably underutilizes I don't want
+actually that's an overstatement I think
+a lot of people um don't appreciate the
+importance of of this approach to
+Parenting um and I am trying to do it
+more often so um quick quick story and
+then I'll I'll back up into the
+principes so I was uh I was getting
+ready to give my first T talk uh a
+number of years ago extremely nervous um
+I'm a shy introvert I was for a long
+time afraid of public speaking I
+remember in college literally shaking um
+to raise my hand uh being that nervous
+and now I'm supposed to get in the red
+circle um not my idea of comfort zone
+and I happen to mention to our oldest
+daughter that I was nervous and I asked
+her for advice on what I should do and
+she said I think I think at the time
+let's see she must have been she was
+seven maybe I think seven uh maybe six
+anyway um she said uh look for a smiling
+face in the
+audience
+[Music]
+so it was it was one of those moments
+where I'm like oh that's such a good
+idea um why didn't I think of that like
+yes I can do that I know people who are
+going to be in the audience so I asked a
+couple of friends to sit the front rows
+and I I locked eyes with a couple of
+them and my nerves went down a little
+bit so a couple weeks later um Joanna's
+getting ready to be in a school play and
+she's also shy and introverted and she's
+nervous and she asked us for
+advice and instead of telling her what
+to do I said well what did you suggest
+to me a few weeks ago and she she
+remembered and she said look for a
+smiling face
+and it it was it was one of like the It
+was one of the most moving moments um of
+my life like Allison and I got to the
+play and she looked at us and she beamed
+and I just um I I think what I learned
+from that experience
+was uh kids need to feel that they
+matter and most of us think about
+mattering as um you know showing kids
+that they're unconditionally loved and
+giving them the support they need
+but we forget that part of feeling that
+you matter is feeling that you make a
+difference so as a kid feeling like you
+have something to
+contribute as a parent asking my
+daughter for advice that boosted her
+confidence and I think that this is um
+I've come to call this the coach effect
+uh it's one of my favorite recent
+findings in Psychology that uh when when
+you're struggling with something um your
+instinct is to go to somebody else for
+advice and say I need guidance the
+problem is that keeps you in a passive
+frame of mind
+uh it makes you feel like you're
+dependent on others what you're better
+off doing is finding somebody else with
+a similar Challenge and giving them
+advice and what that does is it it shows
+you that you have something to give um
+it boosts your efficacy um the research
+on this by Lauren esis Winkler and
+colleagues uh is fascinating so people
+who give advice instead of receiving it
+um randomly assigned end up uh more
+motivated and more confident um and I
+think this is something every parent
+could do right whatever challenge you
+think your kid is going to face
+find a version of it that you're
+grappling with and seek their guidance
+on it and when they run into that same
+challenge they will have confidence that
+they can begin to figure it out on their
+own and you can be a coach in that
+process as opposed to just telling them
+what to do which they may feel like is
+not relevant or they may resist because
+they don't want to be told what to do by
+a parent so that is my favorite
+parenting lesson from hidden potential I
+love that and I love your statement that
+you know kids like adults want to matter
+you know that being it you know we hear
+you know make them feel important but so
+often that's tied to Performance metrics
+and those performance metrics are the
+very things that are making them nervous
+or that are creating anxiety um I love
+it um are you taking additional kids for
+adoption because I'm I'm raising I'm
+raising I'm raising my hand I think
+there'd be a lot more developmental
+psychologists in the world if uh if we
+chose our careers
+later super interesting topic and by the
+way I'm very much looking forward to
+reading your book uh hidden potential um
+clearly I have a lot to resolve around
+that issue because um I still hear Miss
+Rolf in the in uh Middle School just
+telling me how much potential we have
+and that um and that I wasn't accessing
+mine oh no it's like a voice in the back
+of my head um all the time and um even
+though I feel very happy with um U many
+aspects of my life that there are a lot
+of things that I want to do that I
+haven't done and I think it's through uh
+you know limit limited uh what are they
+call limiting self- beliefs or things of
+that sort sting belief self-limiting
+beliefs there you go I can't even say
+say the phrase um yeah I do I do think
+all your fans are like yeah that Andrew
+huberman really hasn't he hasn't really
+tapped his potential at all he's
+squandering at all well keep in mind i'
+I've lived in a fairly narrow trench of
+of pursuit you know at 19 I got into
+this and I've been doing this like
+researching and teaching and doing like
+for it's pretty much all I've done for
+like almost you heading to 30 years so
+and you too you've been in in this in
+this game for a long time and that's
+it's where we like to play but um but
+what I've learned from you today in
+addition to many other things is that um
+realizing our potential uh has so much
+to do with you know reaching outside we
+hear about our comfort zone but it's
+also reaching into our like deeper
+wishes and thoughts and uh I I keep
+coming back to this idea of the tag team
+podcast and and the origins of that in
+your mind it's like I never would have
+expected that but it also reveals
+something that sounds kind of like
+intrinsic to you like you maybe you like
+to see things play out uh the way you
+think they should be played out as
+opposed to the what's clearly a um
+intractable Battle of loggerheads these
+days yes that is a that's a core value
+like I think there I I can't imagine an
+unsolvable problem oh I love that man I
+want your I want your brain um listen
+Adam I want to thank you first of all
+for taking the time today to come talk
+to us certainly not just about your book
+but we covered an enormous range of
+topics I mean you talked to us about
+procrastination which is sort of the
+third rail of life for so many people uh
+creativity intrinsic extrinsic
+motivation and uh blind spots
+authenticity and and so much more but
+also I want to thank you for being such
+an an active teacher on social media in
+the classroom you still run a research
+program you're doing TED Talks you're
+writing multiple books you know you're
+absolute Phenom in terms of the the
+amount of information that you're
+putting out into the world and uh I must
+say I always always always learn from
+your posts your podcasts your books like
+there are certain people in the world
+they're exceedingly rare but you're one
+of them that when they open their mouth
+people learn and they learn valuable
+knowledge and it it's a it's a
+incredible thing um to be on the
+receiving end and so I just want to say
+uh on behalf of myself and everyone else
+thank you ever so much for what you do
+and um please keep going well thank you
+that that means a lot to me considering
+the source cuz I the sentiments are
+mutual uh I think every time I whether
+it's reading one of your posts or seeing
+one of your reals um I my overwhelming
+thought is that is a master teacher and
+if I had been lucky enough to take one
+of your classes I might have gone more
+of the Neuroscience Direction well um
+and then failed but it would it it would
+have been interesting to learn more
+about at minimum and uh I just have
+tremendous admiration for your
+commitment to Making Science um
+interesting clear and useful to people
+thank you well I consider us on the on
+the same team in in that regard and um
+and I I probably will uh tap you about a
+potential collaboration it would be so
+much fun to work together um meanwhile
+again thank you for everything you're
+doing and um like I said just keep going
+and please come back again I feel like
+there are a thousand other topics we
+could talk about and that we should
+honored we'll try not to make you regret
+that thank you thank you for joining me
+for today's discussion with Dr Adam
+Grant if you're learning from and are
+enjoying this podcast please subscribe
+to our YouTube channel that's a terrific
+zero cost way to support us in addition
+please subscribe to the podcast on both
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+and apple you can leave us up to a
+five-star review please also check out
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+and throughout today's episode that's
+the best way to support this podcast if
+you have questions for me or comments
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+the comment section on YouTube I do read
+all the comments not on today's episode
+but on many previous episodes of The
+hubman Lab podcast we discuss
+supplements while supplements aren't
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+again thank you for joining me for
+today's discussion with Dr Adam Grant I
+hope you found the conversation to be as
+informative and practical as I did and
+last but certainly not least thank you
+for your interest in science
+[Music]
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