diff --git "a/Data/transcripts/4F_RBc1akC8_20241225194724.txt" "b/Data/transcripts/4F_RBc1akC8_20241225194724.txt"
new file mode 100644--- /dev/null
+++ "b/Data/transcripts/4F_RBc1akC8_20241225194724.txt"
@@ -0,0 +1,3338 @@
+[Music]
+welcome to the hubman lab guest Series
+where I and an expert guest discuss
+science and science-based tools for
+everyday
+life I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a
+professor of neurobiology and
+Opthalmology at Stanford school of
+medicine today March the 3D episode in
+our sixth episode series all about sleep
+with expert guest Dr Matthew Walker
+during today's episode we discuss how to
+structure your sleep for optimal mental
+health physical health and performance
+we discuss monophasic sleep schedules
+which are the more typical sleep
+schedule where you go to sleep at night
+and then wake up in the morning so
+sleeping in one bout as opposed to
+polyphasic sleep schedules which are
+when you sleep in two or more bouts
+either at night or perhaps a shorter
+bout of sleep at night and another bout
+of sleep during the day we also discuss
+naps including how to nap how long your
+nap should be whether or not naps are
+good or bad in particular whether or not
+they're good or bad for you it turns out
+this varies according to individual we
+also discuss how your needs for sleep
+and naps vary across the lifespan and we
+discuss body position during sleep which
+might seem excessively detailed but it
+turns out that body position during
+sleep is critical for ensuring that the
+sleep you get is optimally restorative
+as with the first two episodes of this
+six episode series today's third episode
+is filled with both science that is the
+biology of sleep and napping and body
+position and how those relate to one
+another as well as practical tools that
+you can use to vastly improve your sleep
+before we begin I'd like to emphasize
+that this podcast is separate from my
+teaching and research roles at Stanford
+it is however part of my desire and
+effort to bring zero cost to Consumer
+information about science and science
+related tools to the general public in
+keeping with that theme I'd like to
+thank the sponsors of today's podcast
+our first sponsor is betterhelp
+betterhelp offers Professional Therapy
+with a licensed therapist carried out
+online now I've been doing therapy for
+well over 30 years initially I had to do
+therapy against my will but of course I
+continued to do it voluntarily over time
+because I really believe that doing
+regular therapy with a quality therapist
+is one of the best things that we can do
+for our mental health indeed for many
+people it's as beneficial as getting
+regular physical exercise the great
+thing about better help is that it makes
+it very easy to find a therapist that's
+optimal for your needs and I think it's
+fair to say that we can define a great
+therapist as somebody with whom you have
+excellent Rapport somebody with whom you
+can talk about a variety of different
+issues and who can provide you not just
+support but also insight and with better
+help they make it extremely conven vent
+so that it's matched to your schedule
+and other aspects of your life if you'd
+like to try betterhelp you can go to
+betterhelp.com huberman to get 10% off
+your first month again that's
+betterhelp.com
+huberman today's episode is also brought
+To Us by element element is an
+electrolyte drink that has everything
+you need and nothing you don't that
+means plenty of the electrolytes
+magnesium potassium and sodium and no
+sugar as I mentioned before on this
+podcast I'm a big fan of salt now I want
+to be clear people who already consume a
+lot of salt or who have high blood
+pressure or who happen to consume a lot
+of processed foods that typically
+contain salt need to control their salt
+intake however if you're somebody who
+eats pretty clean and you're somebody
+who exercises and you're drinking a lot
+of water there's a decent chance that
+you could benefit from ingesting more
+electrolytes with your liquids the
+reason for that is that all the cells in
+our body including the nerve cells the
+neurons require the electrolytes in
+order to function properly so we don't
+just want to be hydrated we want to be
+hydrated with proper electrolyte levels
+with element that's very easy to do what
+I do is when I wake up in the morning I
+consume about 16 to 32 ounces of water
+and I'll dissolve a packet of element in
+that water I'll also do the same when I
+exercise especially if it's on a hot day
+and I'm sweating a lot and sometimes
+I'll even have a third element packet
+dissolved in water if I'm exercising
+really hard or sweating a lot or if I
+just noticed that I'm not consuming
+enough salt with my food if you'd like
+to try element you can go to drink
+element spelled LM nt.com huberman to
+claim a free element sample pack with
+your purchase again that's drink element
+LM
+t.com today's episode is also brought To
+Us by waking up waking up is a
+meditation app that has hundreds of
+different meditations as well as scripts
+for Yoga Nidra and non-sleep deep rest
+or nsdr protocols by now there is an
+abundance of data showing that even
+short daily meditations can greatly
+improve our mood reduce anxiety improve
+our ability to focus and can improve our
+memory and while there are many
+different forms of meditation most
+people find it difficult to find and
+stick to a meditation practice in a way
+that is most beneficial for them the
+waking up app makes it extremely easy to
+learn how to meditate and to carry out
+your daily meditation practice in a way
+that's going to be most effective and
+efficient for you it includes a variety
+of different types of meditations of
+different duration as well as things
+like Yoga Nidra which place the brain
+and body into a sort of pseudo sleep
+that allows you to emerge feeling
+incredibly mentally refreshed in fact
+the science around Yoga Nidra is really
+impressive showing that after a yoga
+needra session levels of dopamine in
+certain areas of the brain are enhanced
+by up to 60% which places the brain and
+body into a state of enhanced Readiness
+for mental work and for physical work
+another thing I really like about the
+waking up app is that it provides a
+30-day introduction course so for those
+of you that have not meditated before or
+getting back to a meditation practice
+that's fantastic or if you're somebody
+who's already a skilled and regular
+meditator waking up has more advanced
+meditations and yoga needer sessions for
+you as well if you'd like to try The
+Waking Up app you can go to waking
+up.com huberman and access a free 30-day
+trial again that's waking up.com
+huberman and now for my conversation
+with Dr Matthew Walker Dr Walker welcome
+back Dr huberman an absolute pleasure
+let's talk about the different types of
+sleep because I think most people think
+of sleep as just one thing most people
+sleep at night some people also nap a
+topic we'll also discuss today
+but turns out there are a lot of
+different different types of sleep what
+are the different types of sleep and
+what do they do for us and um I guess
+everyone's probably wondering already I
+certainly am what types of sleep are we
+already engaging in meaning am I
+involved in or having multiple types of
+sleep each night this is a fascinating
+question and it comes back to something
+we've discussed in a previous episode
+the different stages of sleep and how
+they unfold we've described that
+fascinating stuff what you're already
+asking though is is an incredibly sort
+of subtle but relevant question how
+should I be sleeping in terms of the
+phases of sleep should I have one phase
+should I have two phases of sleep or
+should I have many phases of sleep in
+some ways you can answer that question
+on the basis of the lifespan because how
+it is that we sleep in terms of those
+chunking sessions changes as we
+develop to be clear in
+nomenclature I'm saying monophasic basic
+polyphasic unpack that monophasic
+obviously just simply means a single
+phase monophasic when you say phase you
+mean one bout of sleep correct so that
+would be within a 24-hour period you are
+having a single bout of sleep basic then
+means that within that 24-hour phase you
+are having two bouts of sleep and we'll
+speak about how those bouts are split up
+are they split up between two halves in
+the middle of the night or are they
+split up in terms of longer at night
+Siesta like nap in the afternoon and
+then we can speak about polyphasic sleep
+polyphasic sleep we in sleep science
+have been using for many years in the
+context of infancy because there as any
+new parents will know infants do not
+just simply have a nice single bout of
+sleep they're up they're down they're up
+they're down and have many bouts of
+sleep within that 24-hour period and
+that's polyphasic sleep the other term
+or the other application of that term
+polyphasic sleep has been used more so
+in the sort of interesting biohacker
+movement and we can we'll come back to
+that perhaps later on so how do these
+different phases of sleep change across
+the lifespan well we've already said
+that when you're an infant and you're
+first born within the first year of life
+you are incredibly poly phasic and you
+are probably going through wake sleep
+phases every 2 hours why do you do that
+why can't you just simply be born and
+sleep in a monophasic way it's for at
+least two reasons first an infant needs
+to feed every two hours so their energy
+needs and their food intake requirements
+dictate that you can't sleep for very
+long because you need to be awake to
+feed and then you go back to
+sleep Within probably the first six
+months things will start to to change a
+little bit but the second reason that
+you are highly polyphasic when you are
+first born is because your super
+chiasmatic nucleus and in another
+episode we spoke about this Central
+master 24-hour clock that beats out your
+Cadian Rhythm the rise and the fall the
+wake and the sleep that has not yet
+developed it hasn't been glued into
+place into the brain this 24-hour clock
+so the infant seemingly knows nothing
+about when it's light or when it's dark
+outside that just awake or sleep awake a
+sleeve so that's the second reason
+energy feeding needs is the first and
+then an absence of yet a fully developed
+24-hour clock in the brain to beat out
+that beautiful dictated Rhythm by about
+age one that number of phases of sleep
+are starting to decrease but it's still
+highly polyphasic it's not not until you
+get to probably age two or three that
+now you're starting to see this
+consolidation of sleep what do I mean by
+that sleep is now happening more
+dominantly in the night phase of the
+24-hour cycle and there a few abouts of
+sleep during the
+daytime then perhaps by the time you're
+in kindergarten you may be down to just
+two sleeps so now we've switched from
+polyphasic sleep as infants to basic
+sleep as kindergarten could you describe
+that it was basic patterns I recall in
+kindergarten um having nap time in the
+afternoon yeah they put out these little
+mats and every every kid would just kind
+like roll up it's actually sounds really
+nice it's one you know wouldn't and
+we'll speak about how some adults do
+this too but almost every kindergarten
+system that I've inquired about around
+the world different nations they all
+have this nap time and Any teacher will
+tell you if one of those children does
+not nap during that period of time they
+are the Loose Canon they are the live
+wire and in subsequent episodes we'll
+speak about exactly how sleep harnesses
+and improves our emotional and mental
+health and how it falls apart when we
+don't so that that's how it certainly is
+emerging biologically and that's how we
+as a society respect that and
+accommodate that
+and then probably by the age of starting
+school so sort of five or six now we're
+starting to see fully monophasic sleep
+children sleeping long bouts at night
+and then being able to sustain
+wakefulness during the day at that point
+you have locked in your monophasic
+pattern and that will continue
+throughout adulthood and into old age
+with a few caveats that we'll speak
+about so that's how sleep sleep unfolds
+in the monophasic biphasic polyphasic
+sleep across the lifespan it doesn't
+quite tell you however how those
+different stages of sleep change across
+the lifespan so I've shown you the view
+of sleep across the lifespan through one
+lens of the microscope if we click down
+one lens and focus more deeply on the
+different stages of sleep there we see a
+fascinating
+story in uo for the most part you are in
+a sleep likee State as a fetus once you
+get to a certain point of
+development in utero that sleep-like
+state seems to be more so something that
+looks like REM sleep now it's not fully
+fledged full fat REM sleep yet but it
+seems to be something very much like REM
+sleep I say this because in the first
+episode I told you as we go into REM
+sleep
+and we start to as adults dream the
+brain paralyzes the body so that the
+mind can dream safely those kicks and
+those punches and those elbows that uh a
+mother will feel from the fetus seem to
+be during this dream state often and I
+don't want to shatter any illusions of
+you start singing or you're cing and you
+get these bumps and these elbows and
+these legs kicking and it's beautiful it
+is beautiful but it turns out that it's
+probably the REM sleep state but the
+muscle sort of paralysis has not yet
+developed so you're getting these
+electrical burst this frenetic activity
+of REM sleep that we described but
+you're not getting any of the blockade
+of the motor output and so it expresses
+itself as these kicks and these
+bumps and then during the first six
+months of life and at that point in the
+first 6 months those infants are
+sleeping anywhere between 14 to 17 hours
+a day that's it's immense isn't it I
+mean it's right up there if you look
+across the across philogyny and you ask
+which is by the way a fascinating Topic
+at some point we should do a a separate
+podcast on sleep across different
+species because I know like me you love
+you know the whole variety of sweet but
+you've got elephants who will sleep as
+little as 4 hours and then you've got
+the little brown bat who is the rock
+star of sleep and it will sleep sleep
+almost 17 to 18 hours a day it nudges
+out the sloth in that sense wow can I
+ask you a question about that little
+brown P yeah does it sleep hanging
+upside down does so it can't have sleep
+paralysis in its little claws so it it
+will it will not have that paralysis but
+it goes through the stages of sleep very
+quickly and this happens with birds as
+well so birds that flock on a branch
+they will sleep and they sleep in some
+fascinating ways what some sometimes
+with one half of the brain sometimes
+with both halves but then you say well
+if I'm on a branch and there's this
+wonderful Force called gravity
+underneath me and I go into REM sleep
+and I have that muscle paralysis which
+they do how does that work well they
+only have very brief REM sleep periods
+that last just for a few seconds and
+then they regain their muscle tone got
+it couldn't couldn't help but ask it's
+genius the Flora and the fauna I
+especially that the fauna um enchant me
+that much so I don't want to draw us off
+course but now we know that they they
+can that's why the bats don't fall
+that's why the birds Don't Fall correct
+um so when you are then as an infant
+sleeping 14 to 17 hours what's happening
+with those different stages of sleep
+non-rem and REM at that point we can't
+really Define and separate the different
+stages of non-r because it's not yet
+fully formed but we have what looks like
+a REM sleep active State and a a deep
+non-rem sleep passive state almost 50%
+of the time that an infant a newborn is
+asleep is spent in REM sleep why do I
+say that with some kind of wonder in my
+voice because as adults we're perhaps
+down to maybe 20% of our time spent
+asleep is in REM sleep but 50% of the
+time when an infant is asleep they are
+in rem why would this be the case and
+across all species that have REM and
+non-rem the time when we see REM sleep
+in highest volume amount is always after
+birth there is something special about
+REM sleep and its function during that
+early period and we now start to
+understand why when you are first born
+you are still going through a huge
+amount of brain
+maturation and the recipe for the day
+there unlike when we are teenagers is
+exploding the brain with synapses all of
+these connections throughout the brain
+what we've discovered is that REM sleep
+acts as an electrical fertilizer to
+stimulate the growth of these
+connections within the brain it's almost
+as though you could think about an
+internet service provider with this huge
+new neighborhood and the first call of
+business is to go in and wire up each
+one of those homes with these Fiber
+Optic Cables that's what REM sleep is
+doing and if you start to deprive and
+these were studies gosh done many years
+ago by Howard rthor and others if you
+deprive animals of REM sleep you stunt
+the developmental growth of the brain
+and presumably the whole animal and the
+yeah as a consequence I mean if you look
+at its social behavior even just that
+it's profoundly abnormal because you
+don't have that REM sleep developed
+brain I mention this not because there
+is any causal evidence but we have seen
+REM sleep deep impairments in certain
+developmental
+disorders such as autism as well as ADHD
+I don't think there is any supportive
+evidence yet to come out with a claim
+that part of the trajectory underlying
+those conditions is abnormalities of REM
+sleep but I it's a very active area of
+research so it's a fascinating time
+though during infancy when you get these
+huge amounts of REM sleep why because of
+what we call synaptogenesis is which is
+simply the creation of sinapsis
+Genesis then as you move from 6 months
+across the next 18 months something odd
+happens Total Sleep time starts to
+decrease REM sleep starts to decrease
+but non-rem sleep actually increases
+even though Total Sleep time is
+decreasing and there's a strange peak in
+lighter stage nonrem what we call stage
+two nonr and those sleep spindles that I
+was describing in the first episode
+These bursts of electrical
+activity we will speak about the role of
+those sleep spindles in improving motor
+skill learning and we've done a many
+many years of work in this area why is
+that relevant to this phase of life
+that's right around the time when
+infants start to coordinate their limbs
+in a skilled way and begin to walk and
+we believe that it is part of the
+process of the development of the motor
+system enabling walking to begin amazing
+so then things will change further sleep
+time continues to decrease and by about
+age five or six now the cocktail blend
+of nonrem and REM is down to a stable
+ratio that will remain throughout the
+lifespan which is a 4:1 ratio so about
+20% of the time that you're asleep will
+be REM sleep and the remaining time time
+will be 80% of that time will be non-rem
+sleeping provided one is getting
+sufficient total amounts of sleep
+correct and getting it at the right
+moments in time that we described in the
+first episode getting that sort of that
+appropriate chronotype match to the
+24-hour clock that will certainly alter
+those things too so that's how sleep
+unfolds both at the first level of the
+lens monophasic basic polyphasic and
+then double clicking how the different
+stages of sleep unfold and what the
+reasons are behind that I then said once
+we're adults we become
+monophasic yes to a degree but there is
+some contention about the way that we
+sleep in modernity that we may not be
+sleeping in the way that we were
+designed to sleep which brings us back
+to basic sleep in the first episode we
+spoke about this strange after afternoon
+dip in our alertness that happens called
+the postprandial dip and it happens
+somewhere between the 1 to 4:00 p.m.
+region and it's measurable and it seems
+to be biologically wired into
+us if you look at certain cultures that
+are not touched by modernity so we and
+others have studied studied hunter
+gatherer tribes they don't quite sleep
+the way that we do and they don't sleep
+the way that we do for at least two
+reasons the first is that they will
+often have a siesta like pattern of
+behavior where especially in the hot dry
+season they will take a nap in the
+afternoon in the wet cooler season that
+may not be the case but they certainly
+have more of a basic pattern where
+they'll sleep longer at night and then
+have a short nap Siesta like and then of
+course there are Latin and Mediterranean
+cultures and they have this practice of
+the Siesta like Behavior coming back to
+the hunter gather tribes the way that
+they also do not sleep in a similar
+manner to that which we do is the timing
+of sleep they don't go to sleep as the
+sun goes down they will usually on
+average as a group they will usually go
+to sleep about 2 hours after Sundown and
+then they will wake up not with the
+rising of the sun they wake up just
+before that and you think how are they
+predictive of the light no the thing
+that changes first before the sun truly
+Rises is
+temperature and temperature is a very
+strong predictor that forces them
+awake so when you think about how
+they're sleeping then consider the term
+midnight most of us never really think
+about what the term means midnight
+refers to the fact that it is the middle
+of the night but for most of us in the
+modern world that's the time when we're
+thinking about sending our last email or
+posting to social media midnight is no
+longer midnight for society but it is
+for them so should we be thinking about
+midnight as the middle of the night in
+the context of the uh extreme early
+person morning person who you know
+presumably likes to go to bed around
+8:00 P.M wake up around 4:00 a.m. most
+people hear 4:00 a.m. and they go oh
+goodness you know that's early sort of
+um you know like the the mighty Joo
+willink is is uh famous for posting
+images of his of his uh digital watch
+usually I think it's 4:30 a.m. wake up
+and that's when he starts his workout so
+his Twitter and I guess they call X now
+feed and and Instagram is a replete with
+images of his watch 4:30 and people
+think goodness that's early right but he
+was a guest on this podcast spoken to
+him before but he goes to bed pretty
+early that's right most nights so in
+some sense you know midnight for him or
+for somebody with a similar schedule is
+truly middle of the night that's right
+right but for the other chronotypes for
+people that uh prefer to go to sleep or
+who naturally um get sleepy around 10 or
+11 p.m. or even later um how should they
+think about this biphasic polyphasic
+business because um at at some level um
+we all have to
+reconcile uh our sleep schedule with the
+with the demands of work and family and
+so on that's right so I was very
+specific when I said the hunter gather
+of tribes on average that's the way that
+they will sleep but like the rest of
+society there's a huge distribution and
+there will be some proportion of them
+who are a little bit like Joo who will
+be on the early side of that on the very
+early side of that but then there are
+other people who are clear night owls
+and they may not be going to bed until
+you know 10: or 11: and waking up
+later so there is a distribution there
+you don't have to worry that my
+statement of midnight on average that
+does seem to be when we are dislocated
+from all of the trappings of modernity
+how a group of Representative humans on
+average will sleep but there is huge as
+I said differences from one individual
+to the next by the way you can ask the
+question why do we have these things
+called chronotypes why is there such
+variability in how people have a
+preference for when they sleep wouldn't
+it just be easier if
+biology designed us all to be asleep at
+the same time not so we mentioned in the
+first episode that sleep is truly
+idiotic in the sense that you know
+you're not protecting yourself or the
+people that you care about and if
+everyone slept at the same moment in
+time you as a collective and as an
+individual would be vulnerable for an 8
+hour period 7 to n hour period but by
+way of this wonderful injection of
+variability as to preferences for when
+people sleep maybe there are some people
+who are going to bed at 8:00 p.m. and
+there are other people and they're
+waking up at 4: a.m. there are other
+people who go to bed at midnight and
+wake up at 8:00 a.m. so then think about
+that at some point what you've done is
+that there will always be someone or
+collection of people awake until
+midnight and then will always be a
+collection of people who are awake
+starting at 4:00 a.m.
+so as an individual everyone gets their
+8-hour opportunity but as a collective
+as a clan you are you've reduced your
+vulnerability down by 50% because Mother
+Nature injected the variability by way
+of genetics of chronotype to distribute
+that and lessen the burden does that
+make any sense it does and it reminds me
+of how the Circadian rhythm which we
+discussed in episode one is about 24
+hours not exactly 24 hours the rhythm of
+the supermatic nucleus neurons that
+generate the Circadian rhythm as I
+recall uh is rarely exactly 24 hours
+it's 24.2 or 24.4 and the idea in mind
+the just so story uh is that that
+variation allows for entrainment
+matching to the outside light dark cycle
+which changes across the year so you
+don't want it rigidly 24 hours because
+if there's any variation in light dark
+which of course there is you know even
+at the equator across the year there's
+subtle variations but certainly As you
+move away from the equator and so these
+these uh variations in you know your
+circadian rhythm uh clock scn supermatic
+nucleus might be 24.2 mine might be 24.6
+24 someone else
+24.1 and in that sense um allows some uh
+malleability to to matching the
+Circadian rhythm to outside light dark
+rhythms is that is that a a decent
+parallel for what we're talking about
+it's a beautiful demonstration that
+there is always some it's almost wiggle
+room in how biology is programmed
+because some degree of sort of noise
+almost sarcastic noise can be very
+beneficial and it's much more predictive
+of the way in which the world works and
+it's much more adaptive for a species to
+enact and to embrace that kind of
+variability and yours was a beautiful
+example
+that it's about 24 hours but it's
+certainly responsive to changes in light
+duration across the year and it has to
+be because we need to buckle ourselves
+to the light dark cycle for optimal
+survival and here is another
+demonstration of where it's not about
+the Cadian Rhythm but it's about the
+chronotype distribution not within an
+individual across the year but across
+individuals at any one moment in time
+and that variability once again provides
+a biological
+benefit in the first episode and again
+now you're discussing chronotypes and
+one one thing that I've been meaning to
+ask is you said that chronotype is
+genetically determined but that
+necessarily mean it is directly
+inherited from Mom Andor dad meaning if
+your parents are both extreme early
+morning types will you grow up to be an
+extreme early morning type you already
+established that during infancy and
+development uh adolescence Etc that our
+chronotype is somewhat masked by some of
+the developmental uh um uh Necessities
+um but once we reach young adulthood and
+and our chronotype has been established
+uh can we look to our parents to
+determine whether or not we are more
+likely to be in morning person or or
+late shifted it's very unlikely to find
+find anyone whose parents were both
+extreme morning types who is a neutral
+or an evening type and vice versa so my
+guess is that people with if they know
+of their biological parents and they
+know of their rhythms it's highly likely
+that you will at some point acquas in
+your lifetime to being very similar to
+them now there are certain life
+conditions and contexts where you can
+you know fight that um if you're really
+into you know if you're someone who is
+in punk rock band and you're touring all
+the time even though your mom and dad
+may be morning types and you may be a
+morning type you're on the road you're
+playing gigs there's no chance but at
+some point let's say you retire and you
+give yourself the opportunity to express
+your natural Rhythm you will go back to
+that so yes it's highly genetic it's not
+enre highly genetic there is some degree
+of modification that happens on the
+basis of context and I've just given you
+a good example of context and also your
+exposure to light you can be someone who
+is let's say a neutral like me but if
+you're constantly invaded by Electric
+Light at night you're drinking too much
+caffeine and you're on your laptop and
+your computer and your phone and you're
+always activated by social media it's
+very easy for someone like me to drift
+and become a 1 a.m. to you know 9 a.m.
+person that's not my natural type but
+context and the environment have shifted
+me but for the most part yes to your
+question I'd like to take a brief break
+and acknowledge our sponsor ag1 ag1 is a
+vitamin mineral probiotic drink that
+also contains adaptogens and is designed
+to meet all of your foundational
+nutritional needs by now I'm sure you've
+all heard me say that I've been taking
+ag1 since 201 12 and indeed that is true
+now of course I do consume regular Whole
+Foods every day I strive to get those
+Foods mostly from unprocessed or
+minimally processed sources however I do
+find it hard to get enough servings of
+fruits and vegetables each day so with
+ag1 I ensure that I get enough of the
+vitamins minerals Prebiotic fiber and
+other things typically found in fruits
+or vegetables and of course I still make
+sure to eat fruits and vegetables and in
+that way provide a sort of insurance
+that I'm getting enough of what I need
+in addition the adaptogens and other
+micro nutrients in ag1 really help
+buffer against stress and ensure that
+the cells and organs and tissues of my
+body are getting the things they need
+people often ask me that if they were
+going to take Just One supplement what
+that supplement should be and I always
+answer ag1 if you'd like to try ag1 you
+can go to drink a1.com huberman to claim
+a special offer you'll get five free
+travel packs plus a year supply of
+vitamin D3 K2 again that's drink a1.com
+huberman okay so getting back to these
+different uh phase opportunities for
+Sleep uh clearly I'm getting the
+language wrong here but vacular
+monophasic basic and polyphasic um could
+you give us a few more examples of
+different types of biphasic and
+polyphasic sleep so coming back to basic
+sleep I describe one version once we are
+adults which is the Siesta like notion
+one long bout at night short bout during
+the day and that bout during the day is
+usually matching that drop in alertness
+that we described it sort of hits that
+sweet spot right there and it's quite
+easy for some people to fall asleep in a
+period between somewhere between one and
+four 1 to four yeah and I know it's a
+large window but that just allows us to
+sort of know okay if you're someone like
+yourself who's a morning type you would
+probably start to want to nap a little
+bit earli or if you were basic someone
+like me a neutral probably an hour and a
+half two hours later still
+but there is a different version of
+basic sleep for adults that has been
+described in the literature and it's
+fascinating but I don't think it's
+biological it's the notion that some
+people will have heard called first
+sleep second sleep and now you are
+splitting your sleep into two phases but
+they're split across the night so the
+idea is that you fall asleep and you'll
+maybe have 4ish hours and then you wake
+up and you then are awake for several
+hours and then you go back to sleep for
+another 3 or 4
+hours if you look in history and the the
+record of of human history it's very
+clear that there were some cultures
+doing this particularly if you look at
+some of the European cultures Great
+Britain in particular there is good
+evidence that somewhere between about
+the 15th to 19th century seems to have
+ended during the kind of dezian
+era people were describing this behavior
+and they would wake up in the middle of
+the night after about 4 hours they would
+make food they would play music they
+would write they would make love it was
+a real thing and I'm not suggesting that
+it did not happen it clearly did and
+there's a there a great book that
+outlines this but is it the way that we
+were designed to sleep bif phasically
+versus the Siesta like and I don't think
+it is there is no good collection of
+evidence if you look at the biology of
+our human rhythms that argues that there
+is this magical period of a huge spike
+in Arcadian Rhythm that happens right in
+the middle of the night that should
+force us
+awake there is one paper that's often
+cited for this and in truth that paper
+if you read it says nothing about first
+sleep second sleep doesn't speak about
+basic sleep at all
+and that paper I think is unfairly used
+as a justification of first sleep and
+second sleep and the paper to me has at
+least three problem it's a great paper
+there's no no problem with the paper and
+its hypothesis but its use as
+justification for first sleep second
+sleep has three
+problems the first is the artificial
+nature of the study they weren't
+designing it to test the hypothesis but
+they had individuals in bed for 14 hours
+relative to a standard 8 hour period and
+sure enough what they found was that
+when you force people night after night
+to be in bed for 14 hours somewhere
+after about 6 or 7 hours they wake up
+and then you can't get out of bed in the
+study so you just lie awake and then at
+some point I don't know if it's through
+boredom or you drift back off into sleep
+and that was argued as a clear
+demonstration of this split sleep but as
+I said they're awake usually for about
+six and a half seven
+hours also there was no magical
+Awakening period it's a probability
+distribution and what that means is if
+you look at the data it's just more
+likely that people will wake up after
+about 6 or seven hours and they're more
+likely that they will go back down into
+sleep it wasn't as though the whole
+experiment demonstrated a very clear
+termination of sleep that everyone had
+at that moment in time so that's the
+first
+issue um and the second issue which is
+first issue it's kind of an abnormal
+thing 14 hours forced in bed the second
+is it wasn't a clear separation it's
+just simply higher probability the final
+issue is that it was a study done in
+only seven individuals healthy males and
+so I have yet to see it you know scaled
+up did it happen first sleep second
+sleep yes it did is there any strong
+evidence that that's how we naturally
+were designed and have evolved to sleep
+I in truth I don't think so at least I
+don't see good evidence right now
+supporting that but remain open to it in
+episode one we talked a little bit about
+body position during sleep uh and how
+different uh degrees of uh incline or
+decline might impact uh some of the
+features of sleep and I can't help but
+ask now as you uh described this basic
+pattern for people that were essentially
+experimentally restricted to to the bed
+um is there something about being
+horizontal that makes us
+sleepy there is and it's perhaps not for
+the reasons that you would think which
+is okay I'm just pre-programmed when I
+lie down and my head hits the pillow it
+turns out that it seems to be
+temperature that when your body is
+recumbent lying flat
+horizontal the distribution of how your
+body is able to move blood around the
+different regions and decrease your core
+body temperature meaning it can push
+blood warm blood out of the core of your
+body to these surface areas and when you
+push it out to the surface areas you
+release that heat it's this huge thermal
+dissipation that happens when we move
+Blood Out Of The Core to the surface you
+emit that heat and your core body
+temperature plummets when your body
+temperature your core body temperature
+decreases you have a higher likelihood
+of sleepiness in fact it's very
+difficult for you to fall asleep if your
+core body temperature does not drop and
+by lying down the body's what we call
+vasoactive ability to distribute that
+blood in a way that is permissive for
+thermal dissipation of core body
+temperature is superior and that's the
+reason why we find it easier to fall
+asleep lying down than let's say
+semi-recumbent or certainly propped all
+the way up and it's probably the reason
+naturally we evolve just to lie down on
+the floor very
+interesting maybe now is a good time to
+talk
+about basic sleep in the context of a
+about of sleep at night and the
+afternoon nap you've mentioned this
+postp parial dip that most people
+experience between 1: and 400 p.m. that
+many people try and combat with caffeine
+we will also talk about Caffe
+uh this episode um such an interesting
+substance and I think the most commonly
+used drug it is a drug after all
+worldwide I think more than
+90% of adults worldwide consume caffeine
+on a daily basis that's correct and I
+believe it is after oil it may
+be perhaps the second or at least the
+third most traded commodity on this
+planet and it is what we call a
+psychoactive stimulant is a stimulant
+and it's probably one of the only
+stimulants that we will readily give to
+our children and you know not be too
+concerned about it we'll get to caffeine
+in depth uh a little bit later in this
+episode but I can't help but uh just
+mention that someone I think it was
+Michael Polland said that you know
+caffeine is one of the few drugs that
+almost everybody takes just to quote
+unquote feel normal yeah exactly you
+know it's sort of I think sometimes you
+know sleep deprivation is is
+simply just the absence of of caffeine
+and um so it's a very interesting
+chemical which I have in truth changed
+my mind on and I'm happy to speak about
+why I've changed my mind but also some
+God rails too well we'll we'll go there
+meanwhile I'll take a sip of my uh
+Triple Espresso here as we discuss as we
+discuss naps are naps good for us should
+we nap what if we don't like naps why do
+we wake up from naps groggy sometimes
+and other times we feel refreshed tell
+us about
+napping naps are both good and bad
+depending on the situation naps can be a
+double-edged sword in other words we and
+others have done lots of studies on naps
+and the benefits are fascinating and St
+I'll tell you about one study we did we
+had participants assigned to one of two
+groups and at midday they all learned a
+whole list of new facts so it was a
+study about learning in memory and then
+one group took a 90-minute sleep
+opportunity sort of focused right around
+that drop in alertness the other just
+remained awake lying on a bed and they
+just watched a nature
+documentary and then 5 hours later we
+had them do another learning session and
+so they've woken up after the 90-minute
+nap they've got through that sort of
+initial lull that we'll discuss what
+that is after you wake up everyone's now
+back to operating temperature so in
+other words I've had you try to cram in
+a whole list of facts at midday and then
+a whole list of facts new facts again at
+5 p.m. and I can ask what is the
+learning capacity of your brain at
+midday and at 5:00 p.m. and is there any
+difference in your learning ability when
+you have had a nap in between versus not
+and sure enough what happened in the
+group that did not nap their learning
+capacity gradually declined across the
+day the nap group they were able to
+sustain their learning and in fact if
+anything improve it and the difference
+between those two groups at 5:00 p.m.
+was about
+20% so that's certainly non-trivial in
+terms of if you to say you know here's a
+new compound that can boost your
+learning capacity by 20% would you take
+it I suspect it would probably make some
+money so that's a demonstration of for
+learning in memory we did another study
+very much like that in terms of its
+design but we looked at your emotional
+brain and we were showing people
+different types of emotional expressions
+and having them rate them and we did
+that firstly before an appp and then
+after a na versus um that same time in
+sort of midday versus 5:00 p.m. and
+another group did not nap and sure
+enough the group that did not nap
+by about 5:00 p.m. they were starting to
+rate fearful faces and angry faces as
+much more fearful and much more angry
+but if you looked at the group that
+napped it was different they actually
+lessened the response to fear and they
+blunted the normal increase in Anger
+sensitivity across the day and the nap
+seemed to boost how positively you rated
+happy faces
+so a nap there had the ability to reset
+the magnetic north of your emotional
+compass and there was a beneficial
+almost added Rose tint to your world viw
+glasses after You' napped what was also
+interesting in those two studies two
+different types of sleep were
+transacting those benefits in the nap
+group that was doing the learning the
+learning benefit that they got wasn't
+just about them napping and sleeping it
+was about them having these sleep
+spindles the more of those sleep
+spindles that you had the greater the
+restoration of your learning capacity
+when you wake up for the emotional
+recalibration that I described in the
+nap that had nothing to do with sleep
+spindles or even non-rem sleep it
+required REM sleep to produce that
+benefit so there are certainly many
+benefits and we've look downstairs in
+the body blood pressure cardiovascular
+measures immune Health they all seem to
+benefit so at that point everyone may be
+thinking of course this sounds good not
+to mention the basics which is your
+attention your concentration your focus
+and your energy all improve by way of
+naps even your decision- making you said
+decision making yeah even your
+decision-making is improved so your
+capacity to make the correct decisional
+outcomes based on this weight of
+evidence that you're facing that's also
+improved so almost all areas of
+cognition that we've looked at and many
+areas of your emotional and mood Health
+we've looked at seem to benefit by way
+of a nap at that point you're thinking
+so then what's the problem the problem
+is that when you nap you release some of
+that sleep pressure that's been building
+up so in the first episode we spoke
+about a chemical called adenosine and
+the longer that you're awake the more
+adenosine that builds up the more
+adenosine that builds up the sleepy you
+will feel and after about 16 hours of
+being awake you should have lots of
+healthy sleepiness of adenosine in your
+brain to put you asleep and keep you
+asleep and when we sleep we are able to
+clear that adenosine from the brain so
+we wake up after 7 to 9 hours and if
+it's been good quality sleep we're
+refreshed because we've cleansed the
+brain in part of that
+adenosine when you take a
+nap like a pressure valve on a steam
+cooker you just Rel relase some of that
+healthy sleepiness that you've been
+building up so the the Dark Side of
+napping is if you are struggling with
+sleep and you suffer from insomnia the
+advice is do not nap during the day
+because you're setting yourself up for
+an even higher probability of failure at
+night why because when you nap you
+release some of that good sleepiness
+that we need to build up for you as
+someone who is struggling with sleep to
+give you the greatest chance of awai of
+sleepiness on your
+shoulders so if you are not struggling
+with sleep and you can nap regularly I
+would say naps are just fine and we can
+unpack what is an optimal nap and the
+protocol for what napping should
+be I would say that's great the only
+caveat is make sure that you're not
+napping too late into the day and this
+is one of the components of the protocol
+of how to nap because napping late in
+the day is too close to sleep and you
+can think of it almost like snacking
+before your main meal a nap late in the
+day just takes the appetite edge off
+your sleepiness so that when it comes
+time for sleep you're not as hungry
+anymore so just keep that in mind but we
+can unpack perhaps the optimal way to
+nap if you are going to nap and exactly
+the dos and the don'ts of that if that
+sounds of somewhat interest yeah that is
+uh of immen interest to me and I know
+many other people I'm a huge believer in
+naps I've always enjoyed um short naps
+of about 10 to 30 minutes unless I'm
+somehow sleep deprived in which case I
+will sleep for an hour or even a little
+bit more but I make sure I set an alarm
+U really based on advice that you gave
+me which was to um first of all decide
+whether or not a nap is beneficial for
+for for me or for whoever is considering
+that um but then to make sure that
+however long that nap is zero to 90
+minutes that it not be longer than 90
+minutes because the real goal is to not
+disrupt nighttime sleep that's right
+which is essentially just a a more
+long-winded way of saying what you just
+said so how does one determine the
+optimal duration of nap um and in
+particular to avoid the problem of
+disrupting nighttime sleep by napping
+but also this uh rather common
+phenomenon of waking up and feeling kind
+of groggy or even I'm kind of grumpy the
+post-nap face uh or we should call the
+post-nap expression
+right right the P NE what's your P are
+do you wake up um in the and for morning
+too some people wake up and they're like
+that that face and then there's the like
+good morning you know and I think people
+that wake up with the good morning are
+particularly delightful unless you're of
+the post Snap expression that is kind of
+the the crumpled face and then you just
+you don't want to be around those people
+right no absolutely
+um yeah and this probably relates to
+spirit animals and things like that some
+people wake up like a like a cheerful
+chipmunk and other people seem to wake
+up like my Bulldog Costello where it's
+you know um jowls still in contact with
+the floor yeah so um P I'm trying to
+hold it together and not Absol just fall
+apart it's brilliant please trademarket
+so firstly to your question how to
+optimally nap the word optimal is
+interesting because
+when you people say how long should I
+nap what's the optimal nap duration the
+question I have back to them is what are
+you trying to optimize because once I
+understand what you're trying to
+optimize I can give you a better
+prescription non-medical I'm talking
+about here the a better sort of you know
+protocol piece of advice for how to nap
+I mentioned the study about emotional
+faces in part for a specific reason cuz
+I told you there the benefit came by way
+not of non REM sleep but REM sleep and
+in our first episode we said that when
+you go through these on average 90minut
+Cycles you get most of your non-rem
+sleep first and then you'll have this
+bout of REM sleep at the end and it
+always seems to go that way when you are
+a healthy normal person you go into
+non-rem sleep and then you go into REM
+sleep it's very rare that you ever go
+directly into REM sleep there are only
+two reasons when that seems to happen
+the first is a clinical condition called
+noopsy where you can have sleep onset
+REM sleep and very rare the second is if
+you are horrifically deprived of REM
+sleep night after night after night and
+I let you sleep then at that point REM
+sleep the pressure for REM sleep has
+been built to to the point of being
+almost just insatiable and your brain
+goes straight into REM sleep but with
+those two things aside you go into
+non-rem sleep first so I brought up the
+emotional study of resetting your sort
+of mood uh compass
+because to get that REM sleep you had to
+nap for a longer period of time because
+you had to get through the non-rem sleep
+first before you get the REM sleep but
+let's come back to then assuming optimal
+is for most people when they speak about
+naps I just want the quick reboot I want
+my alertness and concentration which are
+failing because I'm staring at the
+screen or I just can't concentrate on
+the work that I'm doing I want my
+alertness and my concentration to be
+improved proved I want that sort of
+slight boost in brain energy where I
+know I can sustain myself for now a
+longer period of time and I've got the
+motivation which is really in some ways
+how I like to think about energy as well
+I've got the motivation the drive to
+keep going which is just starting to
+fail me to get those basic things which
+is what most people nap for aim for 20
+minute nap why 20 minutes if I thin
+slice the nap duration and and those
+Studies have been done where we look at
+essentially what's called a dose
+response curve I give you 5 minutes of a
+nap 10 minutes of a nap 15 minutes 20
+minutes 30 minutes 45 minutes 90
+minutes after 5 or 10 minutes you don't
+really get very much you will wake up
+and you'll have some degree of improved
+alertness and your basic reaction time
+may be a little bit quicker but that
+Fades very quickly and you don't sustain
+that
+benefit once you get past about 15 to 17
+minutes now things start to look
+different you get these nice benefits
+for concentrational alertness and
+motivation and those things sustain so
+once you wake up out of that probably
+really I would say 20 minute nap at that
+point you've got some good wind in your
+concentration and energy sales for the
+brain and that will sustain you
+throughout the rest of the afternoon and
+into the
+evening the benefit of the 20-minute nap
+is that you don't get the
+PNE trademark Andrew hubman you don't
+get that almost sleep hangover so some
+people will say it's strange I nap maybe
+I'll nap 45 minutes 50 minutes and I
+wake up and to be honest Matt I almost
+feel worse after the nap than I did
+before and I don't understand it it's
+something called Sleep inertia
+and an extreme version of this is in the
+first two hours of your night of sleep
+you get a phone call or an alarm goes
+off and you wake up and you are just
+kind of lost in the ocean you're looking
+around at your surroundings you're just
+in this groggy State you're half awake
+half asleep and you can respond and you
+can do things but boy does it feel
+miserable and it's almost as though
+you're going from the ground floor right
+up to the penthouse suite but you get
+stuck somewhere in between kind of you
+know floor 13 and it's this rough
+state if you go out into sleep light
+stage one nonrem then stage two nonr and
+just before you get into the very
+deepest stages of non Ram 3 and four
+that starts to happen around 30 to 40
+minutes for most people but by cutting
+your nap off at 20 minutes you still get
+these nice benefits from a good chunk of
+healthy non-rem sleep but you're not
+going so far into the cycle so deep into
+your nonr that when you wake up after 20
+minutes you're not in that what we call
+Sleep inertia phase that sleep
+grogginess that sleep hangover phase so
+it's a nice benefit that you get all of
+these improvements in your brain but you
+wake up and very quickly you're back up
+to operating temperature and you don't
+suffer that inertia now that's not to
+say that when you sleep or you nap
+longer
+you don't start to get more benefits you
+do and those benefits are both greater
+in their magnitude and sustain for a
+longer period of time they do it's just
+that you have to understand the tradeoff
+that you will suffer which is I will get
+more bang for my book and I will get
+more benefits but I will in the first
+sort of hour or so have to understand
+that at that point I may even be
+functioning worse than than that which I
+did before I even started napping but if
+you're patient and you go through it the
+rewards on the other side are
+significantly better still so that's the
+first piece of advice and when it comes
+to how to nap I would say the dose and
+the timing make the poison and poison is
+hyperbole in here it's simply just the
+poison being how much sleep and nurs
+you're going to suffer so aim for about
+20 minutes that's the do the timing
+comes back to that which we described
+before do not nap too late into the day
+so what's the rule of thumb here for a
+protocol on average for the average
+adult I would say don't nap after about
+300 p.m. 20 minute naps sometime between
+300 p.m. and if you're struggling with
+sleep don't do this at all if you're not
+and you're able to get to sleep fine
+this seems to be a good ingredient for
+the basic return on your investment
+again if you tell me what's the optimal
+nap duration we need to have a
+conversation to understand what is it
+that you're going after here what are
+the benefits and then I can sort of you
+know create a finger Buffet Kaleidoscope
+match to what you need and we can think
+about the nap duration as a consequence
+thank you that's very informative um I
+have a colleague at Stanford who's a
+Howard Hughes investigator which for
+those that don't know is a a rather
+elite club of uh academic research they
+have to essentially try out for it they
+can every 5 years they go up for Renewal
+it's it's a lot of money which makes
+gives them a greater capacity to uh take
+on greater risk uh work higher risk work
+um and he's also a member of the
+National Academy and he was one of these
+people that graduated high school at 15
+years of age one of these phenoms and he
+is so religious about his napping such
+that when he travels to give seminars at
+other schools he insists that they
+schedule a nap time for him after lunch
+and in his office um you know at between
+12:30 and and 1: p.m. he's napping
+everyone knows this and um and I mention
+this because I think that um oftentimes
+people think of the Nappers as the lazy
+ones but um his output is um near
+superhuman and he attributes U much of
+that output uh to the nap not just the
+post-nap work that he's able to perform
+but his ability to uh just kind of
+manage so many ideas he has enormous
+laboratory and that's just one example I
+think there are examples from sport of
+um sprinters taking naps on the you know
+on the side of the the track field I
+mean so it seems that a capacity to nap
+is also something worth considering
+because I think many people listening to
+this are thinking well I can't nap
+should I nap you know um and can one
+teach themselves to nap so that's the
+question um if one would want to explore
+napping and um is that something that
+one should even consider doing if you
+don't have a propensity to nap should
+you avoid it if you want to try naps how
+could one teach oneself to nap you just
+mentioned earlier uh lying down uh
+relates to body temperature body
+temperature uh relates to sleepiness and
+then as a third question I promise I'll
+repeat these if we need to uh as a third
+question I'd like to have a little bit
+of a discussion about some of the pseudo
+naap states that um I certainly am
+intrigued by you know for instance just
+lying down and I'm doing a progressive
+bodily relaxation things like Yoga Nidra
+uh non-sleep deep rest which is an
+acronym ioin simply to to um make it
+clear what I was talking about but it's
+very similar to Yoga Nidra um things of
+that sort in other words but simply
+should everyone think about having an
+early to mid-afternoon
+protocol to reset their cognition and
+their body we call it a nap but does it
+have to be a nap and if we're not good
+Nappers should we try and if so how
+should we go about it yeah so TI your
+three questions firstly if you're not a
+natural Napper should you start doing it
+um if you want to start doing it how
+should you do it and then the third is
+is there some kind of you know
+substitute for a like kind which would
+be these Li these I I'd love the
+phraseology that you use these Lial
+states do they mimic that are they
+different to that how should we think
+about those the first thing I would say
+to point number one if you are not a
+natural Napper don't necessarily Force
+yourself to be as long as you're getting
+the sleep that you feel you need at
+night and you feel refreshed and
+restored during the day and you don't
+have that sort of postrenal drop to the
+point of thinking I almost need to nap
+during the day there is no pressure
+based on anything I've been telling you
+for you to start napping nor should
+there be any reason that you do start
+napping but let's say that you want to
+try what would be the right protocol to
+improve and increase the likelihood
+the best way you can do this is to mimic
+nighttime as best you can so wherever
+you are if you can shut off the
+lights make sure that you can block out
+you know curtains blinds if you can't do
+that fully and many people won't be able
+to develop an IM mask procedure um so
+put an IM mask on make sure you block
+out noise earplugs you can use a sound
+machine if you want and we can speak
+about sort of sound machines and whether
+or not they're good or bad on sleep and
+then you can lie down make sure that you
+try to take your shoes off and get under
+some kind of a blanket because we're so
+Contex cued by having something wrapped
+around us called a blanket or a duvet
+that to do it without that if you are
+not a natural Napper can help you again
+that some people will say I can just
+kick my feet up on my desk sit back in
+my reclining chair in the office and I
+can fall asleep that's great but if
+you're not a natural person I'm just
+trying to tell you things that increase
+the probability of that and then set the
+alarm I like your idea of making sure
+that if you do fall asleep you don't
+accidentally go too long and then just
+feel miserable so mimic the conditions
+that you're trying to get that you would
+normally get at night that will increase
+the probability mask out noise mask out
+light kick your shoes off have some kind
+of a blanket wrapping around you that's
+probably the best and then time it based
+on this sort of post pral drop you will
+know yourself everyone has fallen prey
+to it you know W it's usually around
+about 3 4 p.m. that I do start to feel
+this decline or it's around 1 p.m. try
+to match it in accordance with that so
+those are the first I think two
+questions should you not necessarily if
+you would like to and I'm not normally
+doing it how can you do it the final
+point I think is fascinating which is
+these alternate states
+of conscious brain activity the most
+obvious is when we're awake and when
+we're asleep those are the two most
+dramatic changes in Consciousness that
+we experience on a daily basis short of
+anesthesia I've become like you very
+fascinated by these sort of both
+meditative States or these linal states
+I think at some point you and I should
+collaborate and we should do some work
+and really unpack this but the reason I
+find this interesting is because I'm
+going to guess you are having sleep
+likee States but you are not fully
+asleep how would I Define a sleep-like
+state what we've learned is that your
+brain the way it sleeps isn't on mass
+it's not as though your entire brain
+sleeps different territories of your
+brain can sleep in different
+ways and what we've also known and
+there's some argument even individual
+brain cells seem to have a period where
+they go into sleep and these individual
+neurons will start to show what look
+like these beautiful big powerful deep
+slow waves in terms of their firing rate
+at least in terms of those neurons
+firing away I bring this up because if
+that means that your brain can have
+local sleep rather than Global sleep if
+you are in global sleep you're out like
+a light you are a sleep but perhaps
+these Lial States the reason that they
+give these benefits is because you are
+still awake not Global sleep so if
+you're in global sleep you're asleep but
+you're awake so you're not in global
+sleep but you may be having local sleep
+now using special um setups in my
+laboratory we can apply tens maybe
+hundreds of electrodes all over your
+head and we can map the the sort of the
+the different places where your brain is
+having sleep in much higher resolution
+so rather than a you know 480 DPI movie
+on YouTube I'm now in 4K resolution I
+can really dismantle what's going on um
+analytically in your brain I'm going to
+guess that when you're going into these
+states and you report coming out of
+those states and I ask you on a scale of
+1 to 10 how would you rate that as an
+experience based on your common
+experience the greater the intensity of
+the lional benefit and state that you
+experienced I'm going to predict is
+directly related to the extent of this
+this local deep non-rem slow wave sleep
+that's happening you're still awake but
+some parts of your brain for maybe
+seconds of time or maybe even tens of
+seconds of time I'm going to bed will be
+oscillating in what look like slow wave
+sleep deep sleep States and if all I
+would be able to look at is that one
+part of your brain and that small
+cluster of electrodes and someone said
+to me is this person awake or asleep I
+would say oh they're asleep they're in
+deep sleep but then if you slowly reveal
+and back out and show me the rest of the
+brain and what it's doing I would say oh
+my goodness no this person must be awake
+but that local territory that District
+up there in their brain they were having
+slow wave
+sleep I think that's what we could find
+and that may predict some of the
+benefits that you get some of the
+productivity energy benefits by the way
+I should note that with all of this nap
+racket NASA figured this out back in the
+1980s they were looking at ways to
+optimize their astronauts because when
+you are up in orbit depending on what
+orbit you're in you are rotating around
+the planet maybe 10 and 20 times per 24
+hours so you're seeing 10 to you know 20
+sunsets and sunrises so your sleep is a
+total mess and you can safety check
+almost everything in terms of Technology
+but the one weak Link in a space mission
+is this thing called the human being
+that's where errors typically happen so
+how do you drisk a human error up in
+space because if you make an error up
+there I mean on the ground not great up
+there kind of
+catastrophic you can try to optimize
+their ability to sleep and their ability
+to maintain Focus concentration
+alertness and productivity and what they
+found was that these naps produced
+almost a 20% boost in short naaps 20%
+boost in their alertness and almost a
+50% boost in their task productivity and
+it was so powerful that it translated to
+the terrestrial um employees of NASA on
+the ground and it became what was known
+as the NASA nap
+culture and from there on we had what we
+called power naaps Power naaps by the
+way why are they called power naaps and
+you think well just because it Powers me
+up it's a good idea but it's wrong it
+has a very specific story a fascinating
+one two legends in my field David dingis
+uh and Mark Rose kind they were looking
+at how to instigate
+risk mitigation not in astronauts but in
+pilots who are doing long haul
+flights because the most dangerous
+aspect of a long haul flight is when it
+is coming down to land and that's when
+they can sometimes have these things
+called a catastrophic hole loss which is
+a euphemistic phrase for a terrible
+plane crash and they were trying to say
+how could you use nap
+strategically to drisk that and improve
+their
+alertness and they asked a very
+interesting question if they can nap for
+only a certain period of time because
+they have to be at work on the plane at
+the for the rest of it when should you
+place that nap should you do it at the
+start of the long call flight in the
+middle or towards the end and most
+people would bet like they I think did
+it's best to place it at the end when
+you're really starting to struggle get
+that boost and then you wake up you're
+not in sleep in OA cuz it's been brief
+and then you're energized for landing
+they didn't find that they found that
+the most optimal time to nap was early
+on in that long haul flight and it
+sustained them throughout the rest of
+the flight now they took their findings
+to the FAA who were funding the work um
+and the Federal Aviation Authority here
+in the United States and they said we've
+got some great findings and we think we
+should implement this and we would like
+to use a term to help Pilots understand
+this and it's called prophylactic
+napping and of course there were many
+Chuckles throughout the room perhaps
+inappropriate and they just said look
+you've got to understand our Pilots the
+you know kind of alpha male guys and if
+you're starting to say you need to
+prophylactically NAB it's not going to
+be adopted that's a nogo so they looked
+around the room because it's an alpha
+male culture it's a mostly masculine
+culture at that time they said what
+could we and there's a lot of beard
+stroking and they said I've got it power
+naaps it's got to be about power and so
+that is where if you've ever wondered
+where the term power naaps come from
+it's not because it reboosts your power
+which it does and boost it back up it's
+because there was Chuckles at the time
+prophylactic napping I'd like to take a
+brief break and acknowledge our sponsor
+eight sleep eight sleep makes Smart
+mattress covers with cooling Heating and
+sleep tracking capacity many times on
+this podcast we discuss how in order to
+fall and stay deeply asleep your body
+temperature actually needs to drop by
+about 1 to 3° and in order to wake up
+feeling maximally refreshed and
+energized your body temperature needs to
+heat up by about 1 to 3° eight sleep
+makes it very easy to control the
+temperature of your sleeping environment
+so that it's easy to fall and stay
+asleep and wake up feeling refreshed I
+started sleeping on an eight- Sleep
+mattress cover several years ago and it
+has completely and positively
+transformed my sleep so much so that
+when I travel to hotels or airbnbs I
+really miss my eight sleep I've even
+shipped my eight sleep out to hotels
+that I've been staying in because it
+improves my sleep that much if you'd
+like to try eightsleep you can go to
+8sleep.com
+huberman to save $150 off their pod 3
+cover eight sleep currently ships to the
+USA Canada UK select countries in the EU
+and Australia again that's 8sleep.com SL
+huberman the naming of things fascinates
+me especially in um the uh landscape of
+health and well-being um also um and
+that's one reason why um having become a
+real fan and practitioner of Yoga Nidra
+which I think translates to yoga sleep
+which is this process of lying down for
+a period of 30 to 60 Minutes Progressive
+relaxation this is these are scripts
+that are readily available as this is a
+a uh age-old practice um in in India um
+that is meant to restore mental and
+physical Vig Vigor by placing one into
+one of these Lial States the um and I
+have great respect for the uh ner
+tradition um but um sometimes the names
+are a separator so people who hear Yoga
+Nidra and they think oh it must be yoga
+movement and that's of course not true
+or they think um that there must be some
+mystical component to it which is not
+necessarily true sometimes they include
+intentions and things like that but
+often not so that's why I coin this um
+uh phrase non-sleep deep rest which is
+essentially maintains the
+critical components of Yoga Nidra um but
+doesn't include intentions and um has
+these shorter uh 10 or 20 minute um
+protocols so it'd be um great fun and um
+I think very interesting for us to do
+that project to explore what are the
+brains uh activation States or
+deactivation States as the case may be
+in these um non-traditional or Lial
+State uh practices now um along the
+lines of power napping specifically and
+the naming of power napping I think it's
+more than than just a a um anecdote
+because I think it is very important for
+people to understand that um that these
+protocols these tools that NASA and that
+Laboratories have have developed um
+often times are are for other purposes
+but they translate to a kind of broader
+significance and what I'm hearing and
+what I'm starting to integrate as we
+have today's conversation is that it
+seems that there is pretty good reason
+to ex at least explore basic sleep right
+that that for the non-nappers to to
+really think about whether or not they
+would like to explore napping as you
+mentioned they don't have to and then
+for people who are already um napping to
+really think about the placement of that
+nap uh within the day and the duration
+of that nap what you told us a few
+moments ago suggests that I should be
+doing or anyone that's doing naps or
+entering these Lial States like nsdr
+might want to shift them a little bit
+earlier than uh the period in which they
+first become sleepy to take that nap is
+that right I mean like so for instance
+should I do as my colleague and you know
+finish lunch and and lie down for 10 15
+minutes um rather than wait until 2 or 3
+p.m. is that is that something that that
+could make a meaningful difference I
+think it could and I think it really
+again depends on how much of a struggle
+sleep becomes in the evening for you if
+it is becoming the later that you nap if
+your sleep becomes either a more
+difficult to initiate in the evening or
+maybe you don't have any problems
+falling asleep but for some reason when
+I look back I'm now starting to wake up
+more throughout the night that in part
+again it's not just that if you nap late
+in the day you struggle to fall asleep
+you may not the other consequence that
+can happen which is non-mutually
+exclusive is that you then stay in not
+as deep as sleep and your sleep is more
+some more fragile in that sense so the
+probability that you will wake up
+because because you had the nap so late
+in the day is higher in the middle of
+the night and then when you wake up like
+many of us do and you go to the restroom
+or It's Perfectly Natural but the speed
+with which you can then fall back asleep
+is compromised why because you've
+jettisoned some of that sleepiness by
+way of the nap and there isn't as much
+to take you back down into sleep after
+you've woken up so I would just say that
+if you are seeing that pattern that the
+later napping that you're doing if
+you're doing that and again there's no
+reason that you need to nap only if you
+choose to nap if that's the case then
+consider not necessarily obviating the
+nap that may not be required just bring
+it back earlier take it after lunch see
+how things work out do the experiment
+and when you do the experiment make sure
+that you do what I would describe as the
+onof on experiment which is where you're
+napping as you normally do and you've
+noticed perhaps some problems with your
+sleep then do so that's sort of the the
+well it's sort of the on off on phase so
+then change your nap protocol and move
+it earlier so now you've Switched Off
+Your Standard protocol and you've moved
+on to something different so you're on
+your standard protocol and then you come
+off it and when you come off it meaning
+you go to an earlier nap and you say
+gosh things do seem to be better maybe
+he he had something there and it does
+seem to
+improve good but I don't trust that
+because maybe it's just a placebo effect
+that you you know hear some dulit
+British tones and you get convinced that
+maybe that would work and you've now
+instead after about two weeks of doing
+that and things have improved go back to
+your original schedule go back on to
+your original protocol I'm not as
+interested about the fact that things
+got better when we changed it I'm
+interested in the question do things get
+worse when we stop it and so when we
+stop the intervention if things got
+worse again now I'm I'm believing it a
+lot more so just as a tip if you are a
+self- tinkerer and you don't have to do
+that but if you're idiotic like me and a
+scientist and you want to do it with
+this city riger that's the way I would
+suggest doing it I don't think it's
+idiotic at all I think it's systematic
+and what you just described is uh both a
+negative control and a positive control
+experiment so you're you are a scientist
+through and
+through are there any individuals that
+should absolutely avoid napping you know
+I'm heard lore of you know um elderly
+folks um folks with certain conditions
+um you know can't imagine um which but
+um I'm sure you'll tell us that for whom
+napping is harmful to their health it's
+a very I think interesting question
+because the strongest evidence comes
+back to that which we we've mentioned
+before which is insomnia and really the
+recommendation there is just avoid naps
+it's and what's problematic about
+insomnia when you are having such tough
+times with sleep at night and you are
+just dragging through the day it is
+miserable and I am you know I I'm very
+protective of my sleep um for the most
+part I
+sleep pretty well but I've I'm I'm not
+immune to the vagaries of sleep I've had
+two bouts of insomnia throughout my life
+both have been what we call reactive
+insomnia reactive to an event or
+something happening and I know how just
+desperate and hungry you are for sleep
+and if it's happening week after week
+month after month I'll just do anything
+to get sleep when I can and the
+Temptation therefore to nap when you are
+suffering from insomnia is that much
+higher and therefore the advice is that
+much harder to adopt but trust me that
+is one of the components that we have in
+the psychological treatment bucket that
+we use for insomnia which is called
+cognitive behavioral therapy for
+insomnia or cbti for short and you can
+just look it up or um on my own podcast
+I done a six-part series on on uh
+insomnia so I would say try to back away
+in that circumstance but you brought up
+a another example which is in aging
+there I think the evidence is a little
+less causal so you have to be more
+cautious about recommending the absence
+as I was with insomnia of abstaining
+from naps but the data has now become
+quite strong that when you get past
+about 65 years old and you look at
+napping behavior in large
+epidemiological studies and you say is
+there a positive benefit in aging for
+napping or is there no benefit at all
+and they looked at that because they
+thought well that perhaps based on the
+work in healthy adults that I've
+described that would be good for older
+adults not only did they find that it
+wasn't good they found that it was
+deleterious that napping in older adults
+was predictive of worse Health outcomes
+and it also seemed to predict a higher
+likelihood of early
+mortality so at this point we're
+thinking well how does that fit with
+everything you've been telling us it
+comes back to this notion of bad sleep
+at night it's probably not necessarily
+that napping during the day is bad for
+older
+adults it's that the Naps reflect a
+problem with the night of sleep for
+older adults and as we get older
+something I didn't mention during
+development was that yes we get this
+sort of State Lael ratio of 4 to1 of one
+part REM sleep four parts non-rem in our
+7 to9 hours and I described these
+changes in rem early in development I
+didn't mention two things about non-rem
+slow wave activity first as we go into
+our teenage years and we shift our sort
+of timing of sleep where we want to go
+to bed later and wake up later that's
+biologically determined it's not
+teenagers fault something happens with
+their deep sleep however their deep
+sleep starts to do a
+different or different action to the
+brain that REM sleep was doing as an
+infant I said that during infancy we
+have huge amounts of REM sleep and were
+growing sinapsis syap Genesis and we
+wiring up all of those new territories
+all of these new neighborhoods with
+fiberoptic cable but let's say that
+you've now run the experiment across
+many years through until teenagehood of
+those neighborhoods and you've been
+measuring the bandwidth consumption of
+each individual house and you've started
+to realize well I wanted to create a big
+spread across the brain and then I'm
+just going to let experience over the
+next years time tell me which parts of
+the brain seem to enjoy that high
+bandwidth and which parts don't seem to
+use it very much and as we go through
+into our teenage years we go through
+something called synaptic pruning where
+the brain actually calls and takes away
+copses from certain parts of the brain
+it seems to be that this change in slow
+wave sleep that happens around these
+adolescent years is performing the act
+of final cortical
+maturation that it's downscaling the
+synapses and fine-tuning the brain so
+you've got this beautiful efficiency and
+now you've throttled back some of the
+bandwidth from some of those
+neighborhoods because they just don't
+use it very much and you can move it
+over into the territories that are
+demanding more bandwidth and net net the
+brain is downscaled but it's improved
+its efficiency in the sense that those
+regions that need it and are working
+hard based on what we think this
+organism has been doing over the past
+you know 13 years that's where we need
+to now place our bets but as we get
+through into our older years and this
+will come back to this issue of napping
+don't
+worry stick with me here folks um the
+reason is that as we're getting older
+our sleep de
+deines but it's not just all sleep
+declines deep sleep declines most
+dramatically and we all think of aging
+from brain perspective as cognitive
+decline that our learning and memory
+abilities begin to fade and Decline and
+they do but I would argue that a
+physiological signature of Aging is that
+your sleep gets worse and particularly
+your deep sleep what's perhaps
+concerning for people listening to this
+right now is that that decline in deep
+Sleep doesn't start happening in your
+60s or your 50s or even your 40s we can
+start to pick up that great sleep
+decline beginning in your mid to late
+30s and then it just decreases and by
+age 50 you are down to about 50% of the
+deep non-rem sleep that you were having
+when you were 17 or 18 by age 65 and
+over or certainly by age 75 you are down
+to about just 5% of the deep sleep that
+you had when you were 17 or 18 which is
+a stunning
+decline what that means comes back to
+the first episode we spoke about the
+four macros of good sleep quantity
+quality timing and regularity one of the
+measures of quality that I described to
+you was this electrical quality of deep
+sleep the other measure of quality sleep
+I spoke about was how consolid ated and
+consistent your sleep is versus how
+fragmented your sleep is the measure of
+Sleep Quality is markedly compromised as
+we get older we're waking up many more
+times our sleep is much more fragmented
+and therefore our sleep efficiency is
+worse and we've got this huge decline in
+our deep non-rm sleep so no wonder then
+when you are awake during the day as an
+older adult Your Sleep Quality is so
+compr promised at that stage you perhaps
+try to compensate by way of napping but
+that compromised quality of sleep that
+you're having at night is probably the
+reason that you start to get sick more
+that you have a higher probability of
+illness and disease and why also you
+probably have a higher risk of premature
+mortality so in other words it's the bad
+quality of sleep at night that leads to
+this behavior that we call daytime
+napping in older adults
+that seems to indirectly suggest oh my
+goodness it's daytime napping that's bad
+and that causes these problems when in
+fact it's that daytime napping is a
+proxy for the bad sleep that's happening
+at night and it's really the bad sleep
+that's happening at night that is more
+directly related to the health and
+mortality concerns in older adults so
+that's why I think right now as a field
+I'm still open to evidence that napping
+for some reason that we just do not
+understand right now is problematic and
+does causally predict worse health and a
+shorter lifespan in older adults I think
+the best evidence that we have right now
+is that it's actually the bad quality of
+sleep at night and thus we should not be
+necessarily jumping to recommendations
+that all older adults should stop
+napping I think we need more evidence
+and I'm open to both sides of that let's
+talk about caffeine uh I've heard the
+ter term is it
+napino yeah I I I think it um refers to
+a practice of drinking some caffeine
+then laying down for a nap and then
+supposedly waking up um feeling more
+refreshed my understanding and you'll
+tell us more of course is that caffeine
+um is effectively uh an adenosine
+antagonist although it's a competitive
+Agonist and you'll explain I'm sure um
+and napping as you mentioned before uh
+removes some of the Sleep pressure AKA
+uh wipes away some of that uh adenosine
+that's accumulated um both of which
+sound great but as you mentioned earlier
+there's a warning there as well uh the
+warning label on uh both those things
+should be that having sufficient
+adenosine built up in your brain is one
+of the ways in which you feel sleepy at
+night and fall asleep and stay asleep
+yeah so what's the story with caffeine
+how does it work uh to make us feel more
+alert and
+um what is the rationale for the
+nappuccino the nappuccino also known as
+the caffeine nap caffeine is a very
+interesting compound in relationship to
+sleep and wake obviously everyone knows
+that caffeine can help you stay awake
+it's no coincidence that those two words
+that you've used about these chemical
+compounds caffeine and adenosine sound
+the same it's because the re receptor
+that or the receptor systems that
+caffeine Targets in your brain are the
+adenosine
+receptors and you think well Matt was
+telling me that the more adenosine that
+builds up in other words the more
+adenosine that's latching onto those
+adenosine receptors in your brain the
+sleepier that you feel and I'm telling
+you that caffeine works on those same
+receptors that doesn't make sense
+caffeine if it's working on those same
+receptors should increase your
+sleepiness it doesn't because it when it
+binds onto those adenosine receptors
+those welcome sites in the brain it
+simply blocks them it doesn't deactivate
+them nor does it activate them it simply
+blocks them so think about it almost a
+little bit like um a room that's full of
+chairs and at some point these adenosine
+which is one collection of people with
+the name badges of adenosine they would
+normally like to come in and start
+sitting down on those seats which are
+the adenosine receptors and as they sit
+down on those seats you're building up
+this signal of sleepiness well caffeine
+which is another group of people with
+caffeine badges they race into the room
+and they start to hijack the seats and
+they start to sit down on them and all
+of a sudden adenosine can't find any
+seats to sit on so your brain is still
+flooding that room with adenosine so the
+adenosine is still building up but the
+reason that you don't feel sleepy
+anymore when you've had a shot of
+caffeine is because caffeine is raced in
+it's latched onto the
+receptors and it has essentially hit the
+mute button on your
+sleepiness so now your brain was
+thinking gosh I've been awake for about
+13 or 14 hours I'm starting to feel it
+I'm just going to take a quick espresso
+shot and you get that you don't think
+well hang on a second you know 20 30
+minutes later I don't feel as tied
+anymore why it's not because caffeine
+came in and removed the adenosine it
+didn't caffeine has come in blocked the
+sights but the the adenosine is still
+building
+up and then at some point the caffeine
+wors off and therefore not only do you
+go back to the same level of Denine of
+adenosine that you did 2 hours ago it's
+that plus the additional 2 hours of
+adenosine that has been building up and
+what you experience is something called
+a caffeine crash and now you need even
+more caffeine not just to get you back
+to where you were but to recover the
+crash that you've had and go
+further caffeine in relationship to the
+caffeine nap though the
+napino is relevant because of its
+timing caffeine has an instigating
+action of around uh 12 14 to 17 minutes
+so when you come through in the morning
+and you grab your first cup of coffee
+and within the first four or five
+minutes you you say I just I just feel
+better I've just had a couple of sips
+I've had half a cup of coffee and I
+already feel better I just needed that
+if it's within the first five minutes
+that you're experiencing that it's got
+nothing to do with the caffeine because
+the peak plasma concentration of your
+caffeine is not going to arrive with you
+until about you know 12 to 17 minutes so
+why do you feel better some of it is
+Placebo because you're smelling the
+coffee and you associate it with the L
+it's really not that though or or um
+when you say Placebo I also wonder
+whether or not it's possibly a a
+conditioned effect you know like a
+pavlovian thing because the smell of the
+coffee the taste of the coffee the the
+hum of the machine the walking into the
+cafe
+to to um and ordering it from the
+Barista also creates an anticipatory
+arousal like here the the alertness is
+coming and in that anticipation there's
+its own form of alertness I think that's
+that's certainly a big component of it
+the other component however if you look
+at the data is that it's got nothing to
+do with the caffeine in that moment it's
+the temperature that most people take
+their caffeine warm either it's tea or
+it's coffee or it's perhaps something
+else that Andrew hubman would drink but
+many people yamate since since I was 5
+years old I don't I don't know if I
+should have been drinking uh caffein
+yerbamate so young maybe even four years
+old there's a photo of me on my
+grandfather's lap drinking out of the
+mate gourd half my family is Argentine
+and um so I was caffeinated from a young
+age this brain developed in a
+caffeinated millu this explains so much
+about what I've known of you over these
+no I'm kidding you um so um but we need
+to speak later no so what's interesting
+about that is it's the
+temperature and I told you in the first
+episode that we need to cool down
+to stay asleep but we need to initially
+warm up to fall asleep because warming
+up at that moment I was telling you is
+warming up at the periphery a warm up to
+cool down to fall asleep so you need to
+warm up to cool down to fall asleep then
+you need to stay cool to stay asleep and
+then you need to warm up to wake up the
+warming up to cool down to fall asleep
+is not warming up in the middle deep
+core of your body it's about warming up
+the hands and the feet and the head to
+dissipate the heat hence warm up the
+outer surfaces to cool down the inner
+core to fall asleep but then I told you
+you have to warm up to wake up and when
+we take a hot drink in the morning
+usually caffeinated the change in your
+core body temperature can happen with
+within a handful of minutes so the
+initial benefit that you get from the
+hot cup of coffee in the morning or hot
+tea is from the temperature rise and
+then you get this beautiful second kick
+from the caffeine itself and that
+caffeine can then sustain for a longer
+period of
+time so we mentioned this problem with
+napping that even at 25 or 30 minutes of
+a nap you wake up with that kind of
+grogginess that sleep
+inertia and what however if I could give
+you the benefits of a nap and have you
+come out of the nap with zero sleep
+inertia and that's what some folks
+started to cleverly think
+about what if I could look at the timing
+of the optimal nap maybe 20 minutes and
+think about the timing of when Peak
+plasma concentration of caffeine emerges
+and I told you really starts to kick
+into gear around 17 minutes and it's in
+full swing by 20 what if I was creative
+I'm going to withhold from saying
+idiotic enough but creative enough to
+get into bed just before I turn the
+light out for my nap in the afternoon I
+Swig a quick
+espresso light goes
+off I close my eyes eye mask earplugs
+and I'm going to drift off fine because
+the the caffeine is not going to kick in
+and for another 17 20 minutes perhaps at
+its full threshold so now you you fall
+in to sleep and you're going down into
+sleep and if you perhaps don't make it
+too large in terms of its serving the
+temperature change is not going to
+affect you in a negative way and then
+just as your alarm clock is about to go
+off after 20 minutes you're on the
+beautiful ascending swing of upward
+plasma concentration of caffeine and you
+get ejected out the other side with both
+the benefits of the nap together with
+the benefits of the caffeine so you get
+your cake and you can eat it too you get
+the nap absent the Sleep inertia and
+hence this created what we call the
+caffeine nap I love it the nappuccino
+the the nappuccino um maybe I'll give it
+a try uh this is the first time I've
+ever heard the um the rationale and the
+the the fine structure of the nappuccino
+but it makes sense um uh at a logical
+and mechanistic level I have to ask is
+there anything besides caffeine and
+sleep that can clear
+adenosine you know can exercise clear
+adenosine can uh cold shower clear
+adenosine I mean and I understand that
+there are a bunch of competing
+mechanisms in the body like presumably a
+spike in norepinephrine or adrenaline or
+both is going to impact the adenosine
+system I I once heard a great quote um
+from a former uh
+member of the National Academy of
+Sciences a brilliant guy he said you
+know a a drug is a substance that when
+injected into an animal or a human
+produces a scientific publication
+meaning meaning it is it is rare to find
+a paper that doesn't see some effect of
+some drug especially on sleep I'm told
+as I recall if you put aspirin REM sleep
+into PubMed you're going to see some
+effect on REM sleep people take aspir
+pretty much any substance that one takes
+is going to to alter um some feature of
+sleep or of wakeful States if one is
+looking with a fine enough uh instrument
+or is that an overstatement no I don't
+think it is an overstatement and it
+comes back to the first episode where we
+described the complexity this incredible
+beautiful physiological ballet certainly
+one of the recommendations when people
+say I get this afternoon this post
+prandy will drop in my alertness what
+can I do I say you could nap but another
+way is just get outside and walk around
+be physically active some of that has to
+do with the fact that you'll probably
+get some daylight and daylight can be a
+stimulator of alertness as long you've
+told us and educated us on we also know
+that physical activity by itself can
+increase the amount of endorphins and
+dorphin and those are wake promoting but
+none of those are really necessarily
+going to be altering adenosine they're
+simply overriding the adenosine that is
+still building up it really does seem to
+be for the most part at least as all
+that I know it's only sleep and
+particularly non-rem sleep that has the
+capacity to or give the brain the chance
+to remove that adenosine now what could
+be interesting I think is two
+circumstances one is where your brain
+becomes less metabolically active for
+another reason and I told you that it's
+not joring it's not as though during
+deep non-rm sleep that there is some
+special pulsing cleansing mechanism for
+adenosine there is a cleansing system
+called the glymphatic system which
+removes the toxic metabolic byproducts
+of the waking day wakefulness in some
+ways is biochemically low-level brain
+damage and sleep is sanitary salvation
+in that regard knew um but which is
+again it's humoristic and it's it's it's
+going too far but it makes a point the
+idea here however is that it's not that
+there is a special system that is
+removing the adenosine during deep nonm
+sleep it's just that your brain is less
+metabolically active and therefore it's
+not producing as much adenosine so the
+natural mechanisms that are always
+occurring in the background to be
+clearing adenosine and degrading it
+simply get the chance to do that just as
+effectively as they have but you're no
+longer working against the opposite tide
+that is growing the adenosine now the
+adenosine increase has dissipated
+because you're no long longer
+metabolically active during deep sleep
+and you get the chance to cleanse it all
+of which is to say therefore that and I
+think that would mimic that such as for
+example anesthesia my guess is that you
+probably do jettison some sleep pressure
+when you are in
+anesthesia I also think that these Lial
+States non sleep deep rest could be a
+fascinating territory there because at
+that point I'm going to guess and we'll
+be able to see with the e G and we may
+also be able to do some Imaging
+depending on how we you and I design the
+study to look at what changes in the
+brain in terms of its activation State
+my guess is that if it does put you into
+something like slow wave activity
+patterns that means that those
+territories of the brain are
+metabolically less active and that
+allows the brain to dissipate the
+adenosine so to your point I don't think
+things like necessarily exercise or
+light change adenosine level
+they do give a nice alertness benefit
+for other reasons but is there an
+alternative way of dissipating adenosine
+yes I think anything that mimics a non
+or a less metabolically active brain
+could produce these beautiful adenosine
+benefits thank you for that this brings
+me to a question about the period
+immediately after waking from the
+nightly bout of sleep um I've been uh
+touting the benefits of delaying one's
+caffeine intake by 90 to 120 minutes
+after waking there's a little bit of a
+misconception out there I think people
+um ran with the ball uh assuming that I
+was mandating this or think or
+suggesting that everyone should do this
+and that's simply not the case uh I
+actually wake up and I'll hydrate and
+drink caffeine very close to waking if
+I'm going to exercise soon after yeah um
+which I often do um but I've experienced
+and I know others um have experienced if
+they are not going to exercise
+immediately or they don't need caffeine
+to exercise for whatever reason I've
+heard these people exist I'm no such M
+mutant um that delaying their caffeine
+intake by 90 to 120 Minutes in some
+cases can offset the afternoon crash now
+I want to be clear some of that may be
+offsetting the afternoon consumption of
+more caffeine because by delaying your
+caffeine intake in the morning then
+perhaps there's less of an incentive or
+requirement to drink caffeine in the
+afternoon and all of which dominoes to
+as we'll talk about more in the series
+to better sleep at night because you
+you're not ingesting caffeine close to
+bedtime but at risk of taking a massive
+tangent here's what I'd like to know
+based on what you just told
+us if
+indeed
+sleep and
+lower metabolic activity in certain
+brain regions can help reduce adenosine
+levels in the
+brain one could imagine that upon
+waking it is either a step function from
+okay you know let's say at um 5:45 a.m.
+somebody is asleep and adenosine is
+still being cleared away because they're
+asleep and then they wake up boom does
+adenosine clearance immediately stop
+well for people who have that um
+crumpled face uh grogginess um and they
+wake up at 5:45 maybe even by way of
+alarm although we don't uh suggest that
+right and they stagger into the kitchen
+and um ordinarily they'd make their cup
+of coffee but they're in a pseudo sleep
+state yeah so it stands to reason that
+they're still clearing adenosine now if
+they are to drink caffeine right away
+then they're as you pointed out going to
+block those adenosine receptors and
+there's going to be a continued buildup
+of adenosine as opposed to a clearance
+of adenosine so this was um part not the
+entire reason but part of the rationale
+for suggesting that people at least
+explore delaying caffeine slightly and
+then there are things like the cortisol
+rise and Etc but um does that kind of
+framework at least make logical sense
+that doesn't mean it would hold up in a
+randomized controlled trial but given
+that we're talking about essentially
+zero risk protocols here um what are
+your thoughts on that I think it is good
+advice for people to test and it's good
+advice for two reasons the first is that
+which you describe in some ways by
+taking caffeine on early and masking
+that
+adenosine also caffeine can make your
+brain more metabolically active which
+means that you're going to build up more
+adenosine during the day which means
+that sleepiness is going to arrive
+earlier which means that perhaps that
+postprandial drop is going to be you
+know harsher and you're going to perhaps
+then need to self-medicate with more
+caffeine to and so goes the Vicious
+Cycle so I think that's one thing to
+keep in mind I think that's one
+hypothesis I think the second hypothesis
+for me or the second reason I would
+advocate for that is if you've been
+using caffeine that way for a long
+period of time you may also be
+masking the quality of your sleep
+because you wake up you immediately
+medicate with caffeine and you are alert
+you're awake and you think well I
+looking back on my night I'm awake now
+after my caffeine and now is the
+important part of that sentence I'm
+awake now so there's nothing wrong with
+my sleep is that true maybe it is maybe
+it's not maybe if you abstain from
+caffeine through and you have to get
+through the detox period it's not going
+to this is not the right test
+immediately but do it for about two
+weeks and then at that point once you're
+free from the detox and the withdrawal
+now you're in a somewhat naive state
+where you're taking your caffeine on I'm
+telling you to stop caffeine you're
+taking it on at 11:00 after you've woken
+up let's say 7:00 in the morning at that
+point we've now got this nice Clear
+Window that has been consistently
+happening between 7 to 11: in the
+morning and I'm going to ask you now do
+you feel rested restored and refreshed
+and can you operate with cognitive
+acumen and
+skill in those first morning hours now
+don't forget we've got to get past the
+natural sleep and Heria period in the
+first 90 minutes but after the first 90
+minutes of waking up absent of caffeine
+let's say by 900 a.m. in the morning are
+you functioning well because if you're
+not and you still think you know what I
+don't feel restored by my sleep I feel
+unrefreshed I want to then start asking
+you let's take a look at your sleep and
+let's see how we can get you to a more
+refreshed state
+and by using caffeine first thing in the
+morning you don't give yourself the
+chance to test whether or not
+subjectively you sense your sleep is
+good quality now you don't need to do
+this forever you can just do a test for
+a month and be asking that question and
+if all is clear after you've got through
+withdrawal and you've got past the first
+90 minutes after waking up and you tell
+me now in this more caffeine naive state
+in the first few hours I feel rest I
+feel refreshed I feel restored by my
+sleep then that's great we don't need to
+be concerned about your sleep so that's
+the second reason I like it because it
+gives you the opportunity to test out
+whether or not your sleep is of good
+quality or not I should also note by the
+way that I mentioned I've changed my
+mind on caffeine and its use and this
+comes back to I just raise it because
+you had said I made this suggestion and
+it wasn't binary it wasn't dictatorial
+you don't have to to do it I wasn't
+saying that everyone needs to do it and
+in fact even I will you know tweak my
+schedule if I'm doing one thing in the
+morning I will take on board caffeine
+fairly soon if I'm not I will hold
+off I came out the gate when I first
+published um a book and it and I was
+very dictatorial about it I and I was
+very mono I was very binary you know it
+was sleep is absolute and it's
+it has to be this way and no other way I
+was not in favor of caffeine and I was
+telling people about the dangers and
+there are dangers to your sleep and we
+we can speak about those but it was a
+little bit too
+heavy-handed I've changed my mind for at
+least two reasons
+first that's not the way Society works
+or people live so there's no amount just
+like technology in saying leave your
+phone outside of the room for 2 hours
+before bed and don't check it for the
+first 4 hours that that Genie is out the
+bottle so the reason I have changed my
+mind on caffeine is because if you look
+at the data on on caffeine it's stunning
+for
+Health it on almost every metric that we
+can measure drinking some degree of
+caffeine is beneficial now there is a I
+knew it there is a U-shaped function to
+this which is once you get past sort of
+three or four cups of coffee then you
+start to go in the downward Direction
+and things aren't so great the
+contradiction however was that I was
+telling people caffeine not good for
+your sleep and sleep by the way is
+wonderful for Health it transacts all of
+these benefits that we have and will
+discuss in this series but then you
+compare that relative to caffeine and
+caffeine transacts many of the same
+health benefits so how can you explain
+that Mr sleep
+scientist well if you look the the data
+is very clear it's not the caffeine
+that's the benefit most people take on
+board caffeine by way of a cup of
+coffee and the Coffee Bean is Pack full
+not just of caffeine it contains a
+whopping dose of
+antioxidants and because of our
+deficient Western diets were so absent
+of these
+antioxidants that the humble cup of
+coffee has been asked to carry the
+Herculean weight of our antioxidant
+needs on its shoulders so no wonder it
+by itself carries such a strong Health
+signal because it's providing you with
+this wonderful dose of antioxidants in
+addition to caffeine case in point if
+you look at decaffeinated coffee you
+still get the antioxidants but now now
+you don't get the caffeine and lo and
+behold you get many of the same health
+benefits it's not the caffeine it's the
+coffee itself so I think that is a a
+perfectly good reason to justify
+caffeine but again just like naps the
+dose and the timing make the poison if
+you're not someone who's sensitive to
+caffeine then having a couple of cups of
+caffeine and trying to step away from
+the use of caffeine I would argue
+somewhere between 10 to 12 hours before
+you expect to go to bed depending on
+your sensitivity and it is different
+across people and we know that it's
+genetic there is a specific um what we
+call polymorphism which just means A
+variation in a particular Gene and if
+you look at variations in that it will
+predict whether you are someone who is
+very sensitive to caffeine or not very
+sensitive to caffeine and it comes down
+to how quickly you can essentially
+metabolically remove that caffeine from
+the system so if you know that you're a
+very sensitive person I would probably
+argue try to stay clear maybe 12 to 14
+hours if you're someone who is not as
+sensitive then you could maybe go to 8
+hours the danger is for people who say
+look I'm one of those people who is you
+know really just not sensitive to
+caffeine at all and I can have an
+espresso with dinner and I fall asleep
+fine I stay asleep fine so it's really
+not a problem for me I would say that
+that that may be true but the inherent
+danger here is that and we've done these
+studies if I give you a dose of let's
+say 200 300 400 milligrams of of
+caffeine in the hours before bed which
+would be a large you know strong cup of
+coffee or you know two espresso with
+dinner some people can fall asleep and
+some people stay asleep but the amount
+of deep sleep that they have is
+compromised in fact it can drop your
+deep sleep by up to 20% now the danger
+is that you wake up in the morning and
+there was no signals in your sleep that
+said you had problematic sleep because
+you're not aware of how much deep sleep
+that you had that's the reason that I
+think you know sleep trackers can be
+helpful in some ways but you then wake
+up and you don't feel as refreshed and
+restored but you don't remember having a
+hard time falling asleep or staying
+asleep but now you find yourself
+reaching for three cups of coffee to
+wake up in the morning rather than the
+standard two and so goes the Vicious
+Cycle
+so and also you see an interesting
+interrelationship we did a recent study
+we just published in Wall Street Traders
+it's not just caffeine use it's also
+about alcohol use in the evening that
+people who overmedicate with caffeine
+during the day they then need something
+to bring them down at night and the
+principal depressant agent and
+depressant not in the sense of
+psychiatric depression but in the sense
+of brain neural activity depression is
+is alcohol so you get this classic cycle
+of uppers and downers I need my uppers
+during the morning my caffeine and I
+need my downers at night to lull me into
+sleep and it's this really interesting
+trade-off which we we saw in these Wall
+Street Traders so coming back to the
+notion of caffeine though I am favorable
+of it in terms of its health benefits I
+think it's very very clear just be
+mindful of the dose and be mindful of
+the timing dose try to not exceed about
+three cups of coffee timing understand
+your sensitivity there are certain
+genetic tests if you really want to get
+nerdy that will tell you if you have
+this sensitivity or not but you will
+probably know it and therefore just say
+okay I'm not that sensitive I could
+probably go 8 hours or as close as 8
+hours before sleep or 10 hours if you're
+very sensitive 14 15 hours and keep it
+to one cup um so those are the ways that
+I would see moderating caffeine and
+changing my my mind on caffeine which
+just comes back to your point where you
+were saying I made this recommendation
+about caffeine I want to make sure I
+modify that so people don't get confused
+I certainly um needed to make a
+modification to my stance on caffeine so
+thank you for letting me say that which
+is a long uh winded way of of getting
+around it but does that help a little
+bit that does help it um very much thank
+you for that um addendum to the
+legislature
+[Laughter]
+okay so you told us about the power nap
+and you've told us about the caffeine
+nap the so-called napino yeah what are
+some other types of naps that can be
+beneficial for Sleep awake cycles and
+alertness so you can think about the
+caffeine nap as trying to amplify it
+sort of a nap plus as it were but to
+your question the study that comes to
+mind there was a brilliant investigation
+Herculean in its study design from a
+great sleep research group out in Japan
+and they asked okay the nap is good the
+caffeine nap may be a little bit better
+but can we go
+further um and so they designed a series
+of studies they had five different
+experimental groups and they tried to
+basically create a stack a stacking
+system they had across the 5 groups
+there was a non naap group that's the
+control then there was a nap group then
+there was a nap plus caffeine group then
+there was a nap Plus Cold face and cold
+handwashing immediately after you wake
+up I'll come back to explain why that we
+think that works and then the final
+group was a group that was a nap plus
+bright light and again thank you uh me
+offering this as the general public to
+you Andrew hubman for for your light
+Revolution so it was bright light at
+2,000 looks immediately afterwards so
+they had five groups again there was no
+nap group nap group nap plus caffeine
+nap plus cold hands and face washing nap
+plus immediate brightlight the cold
+hands and face washing is interesting I
+told you before that there was this
+three-part story to to the sleep wake
+equation that you need to warm up to
+cool down to fall asleep stay cool to
+stay asleep warm up to wake up and I'm
+saying warm up to wake up but use cold
+water on your face and your
+hands don't forget that warming up when
+I say it in the morning is warming up at
+the central core of your body you
+reverse engineer what you did in the
+evening I said warm up to cool down to
+fall asleep so you warm up the periphery
+to release the blood from the core and
+you cool down well the reason that they
+use cold hand and face
+washing was because that's this vascular
+surface it's the place where we can
+modulate temperature quite quickly the
+cold water on the face and the hands
+therefore caused Vaso
+constriction the the vessels and the
+capillaries there they all scrunched up
+and they force the blood back down into
+the core of the body so the core body
+temperature increase a little bit now
+you also get a bit of an adrenaline shot
+when you're splashing very cold water on
+your hands and your face so there's some
+of that too but that's the justification
+so what they find firstly they were
+measuring different aspects of your
+cognition and your mood and your
+sleepiness those were the outcome
+measures to assess how did these five
+different experimental groups change and
+you can imag I mean this is I don't
+think I would ever take on a study where
+I'm doing five nap groups all within one
+study it's bloody amazing so they did
+the nonap group and then compared to the
+nonap group The Nap group got a
+wonderful benefit just as we described
+and they showed benefits in their
+alertness in their cognitive performance
+and also they showed a reduction in
+their sleepiness so Point number one on
+the scoreboard for a nap then they did
+the nap plus the
+caffeine and sure enough you got an
+added benefit to that which you already
+obtained from the nap now it was nowhere
+near as sizable as the benefit from the
+nap so the addition of caffeine does
+give you some nice benefits and I've
+used this before when I've worked with
+sort of professional athletes we do
+instigate these nap um these caffeine
+naps when needed so it did give a nice
+benefit but then when they looked at the
+nap Plus Cold hand and face washing and
+the nap plus the bright light those also
+added something to The Nap benefit now
+they didn't do the sixth Group which is
+really what I'm going to do some hand
+waving about which is the full St stack
+full fat method where they said okay
+you're going to do nap plus caffeine
+Plus Cold hand and face washing plus
+bright light but if you were to put
+those together my thought is that
+they're probably additive rather than
+simply just you know netting each other
+out which means that if you really want
+to not just do a nap or a nap plus which
+would be the the Caffe nap but the nap
+plus plus version you can lean into this
+study and the protocol there would be
+you get into bed you have your espresso
+shot before you turn the light you Swig
+it go down set your alarm for 20 minutes
+you wake up the caffeine is kicking in
+you get over the inertia you go straight
+out cold hands cold face by way of cold
+water and then you get immediate
+daylight for 5 to 10 minutes outside and
+at that point you're really in a
+supercharged state so that's if you just
+because I know there's probably going to
+be some audience members who are willing
+to give this a try or who really want to
+optimize don't give me you know what is
+good give me the extreme very best
+that's the only suggestion I would have
+based on that data I love it and
+actually what you just described could
+easily be um translocated to the uh the
+period after uh waking from the nightly
+bout of sleep although one wouldn't
+ingest caffeine prior to waking up for
+obvious reasons um but it would make
+good sense to me to uh wake up obviously
+get sunlight in one's eyes um splash
+some cold water in one's face or hands
+or get cold shower cold plunge um
+caffeine or delay caffeine I mean it's
+essentially the same set of tools and I
+think it really um points to the fact
+that circadian rhythm clearance of
+adenosine uh temperature modulation and
+of course the the way in which these
+interact um are really the the levers
+and and knobs to to modulate wakefulness
+yeah it's it's so it there are I think
+we've gone over this notion of naps but
+there are ways that you can try to
+manipulate the nap system still and
+there are ways that you can manipulate
+it even further but I like what you're
+saying because it just comes back to the
+fundamentals let's let's forego the the
+nap conversation just go back to the
+morning routine you're absolutely right
+and think about the cold water and
+warmart my guess is that very few people
+when they go to bed
+they wash their face and their hands
+maybe they're probably not washing it
+with cold water before they go to bed
+correct they're going to be washing it
+with warm water why don't they do that
+and they just say well why would I
+Splash cold water on my face you know
+probably wakes me up you ever thought
+about why it wakes you up part of it is
+the you know the shot of activation but
+the other part is Thermo regulation and
+the opposite is what what you want to do
+if anything you want to be warming your
+hands and your feet and that's exactly
+what you've always done you've always
+medicated your sleep onset by using warm
+water on your face and your hands
+several times during today's discussion
+we talked about polyphasic sleep um and
+the different types of polyphasic sleep
+that we covered are I wouldn't say
+conventional but they're um conventional
+is what are some of the more um esoteric
+or let's call them high performance Pol
+polyphasic uh strategies uh for sleep so
+we've spoken about polyphasic sleep in
+the natural way it occurs which is
+during infancy and sleeping like a baby
+means that you're sleeping in a highly
+polyphasic way but probably around about
+the late 1990s 2000s with the emergence
+of the biohacker movement and the
+Quantified
+self-movement there started to become a
+lot of chatter online about this notion
+of polyphasic sleep and here no longer
+are we infants we're now adults but
+we're engaging in a pattern that is
+highly
+polyphasic polyphasic sleep simply by
+definition again means that you're
+having multiple phases of sleep within a
+24-hour period And there are different
+strategies so the way polyphasic sleep
+in adults works is that you take the
+24-hour period and you think about it
+like a pie chart and then you start to
+slice that pie up into these quadrants
+when it comes to polyphasic sleep the
+goal is to put insert multiple phases of
+sleep around the 24-hour clock rather
+than one single phase but the thinness
+of those slices of the pie are very thin
+leaving large thick slices of
+wakefulness in between the notion that
+being that if you were to sort of just
+intersperse Little soupson of sleep in
+terms of these little thin slices of
+sleep you can increase the amount of
+time that you're awake and you can
+increase all of the benefits of a wake
+so if you look at the there is a website
+I think it's called the polyphasic
+society and there it's not a scientific
+Society like the you know psychological
+the American Association for uh
+psychology or medical um American
+Medical Association or British medic
+it's not one of those ratified certified
+scientific or medical it's just society
+that lives online which is great and
+they make claims to suggest that
+polyphasic sleep can improve aspects of
+your mood it can improve aspects of your
+productivity it can maybe even improve
+aspects of Health I think sometimes
+there are claims that it can help with
+lifespan and there are a number of
+different schedules that they will
+describe to you and that you can find
+out there of polyphasic sleep there is
+is the first one that probably people
+have heard of is called the uberman
+schedule and by the way there is no h at
+the start of that it is simply you I
+know it's not this man sitting across
+from me who has anything to do with this
+schedule and after we discuss the data
+he will um reassert that very same fact
+then there's something called the
+Everyman shedule and then there is the
+triphasic schedule and there's lots of
+different other flavors of this the
+differences between them are in how you
+split up that pie chart and how much you
+assign to little thin slices of sleep
+versus longer periods of wake and how
+many of those you insert but they all
+follow the same pattern if you look at
+the literature however it didn't begin
+with the biohacker movement the first
+description I can find in the human
+record comes from Time Magazine an issue
+in
+1943 and they describe the protocol of
+at the time a fantastic very interesting
+designer a guy called book Minster
+Fuller and he created a design principle
+and that design principle was called the
+daxian principle the daxian principle
+was principally used initially to build
+unique building structures and it uses
+this notion of different sort of almost
+spokes that interconnect in a central
+Hub that create a self-supporting
+structure are the most obvious have you
+ever been to one of those geodesic domes
+and inside you go in it's like a
+botanical garden and it's all tropical
+despite you being in a let's say being
+in England in London and is beautifully
+tropical inside of that that structure
+that sort of latis structure that comes
+in part from his Design This was the
+daxian principle and he scaled it to
+different things the daxian car the
+daxian house the daxian Dome it
+fascinating
+but he was no fan of sleep and he saw
+sleep as a rather significant waste of
+time when just like the rest of his
+daxian principle he could be harnessing
+more efficiency out of the system with
+less structure and here less sleep
+structure inserted into his 24-hour
+period so he was the first one to
+describe his schedule and it was called
+the daxian schedule of polyphasic sleep
+so it may have been a practice earlier
+in the record but that's the earliest
+one I can find so let's come back to the
+claims of polyphasic sleep that it could
+improve let's say your mood or your
+cognition or your productivity or your
+health the a group of scientists at
+Harvard some of my old colleagues um
+from Harvard they looked at all of the
+literature on all of the stes that were
+polyphasic like or testing this
+claim and the first thing that they
+found was to their claims of improved
+cognition productivity mood as well as
+health they found no supportive evidence
+that polyphasic sleep was helpful then
+they turned the tables and they said
+well could it be hurtful and in fact
+that's exactly what they found firstly
+the total amount of sleep that you get
+on any one of those schedules is
+decreased significantly now of course
+that's the goal the quality of sleep
+that you get though is miserable your
+sleep efficiency even when you're having
+these short periods of time especially
+during the waking hours is very poor
+it's not a type of even short sleep that
+you would wish for third they found that
+it would reduce your REM sleep amounts
+so that was the first set of findings
+your sleep is no better if anything it's
+significantly worse and then they
+started to find that there were
+significant impairments in many of those
+things impairments in cognition in
+judgment making and decision- making
+impairment in mood and some aspects of
+impairment in metabolic Health
+particularly glucose
+regulation so when it comes to
+polyphasic sleep sleeping like a baby if
+you're an adult seems to be a rather
+unwise piece of advice now yeah I mean
+it probably goes along with eating baby
+food drinking breast milk and um and uh
+having somebody else uh clothe and
+change you as an adult it's probably uh
+not advisable
+it doesn't seem to be at least supported
+by the data and again I want to be so
+careful here and you're very careful too
+I'm not here to necessarily tell anyone
+absolutely how to live their life I'm
+just a scientist and all I can do is
+give you the information just as you do
+and then it's up to you to make the best
+decisions that you wish to make all I
+would say is that I would hope that as
+long as you're not hurting yourself and
+harming your health and you're not
+hurting other people then and it makes
+you happy then I say whatever it is in
+life good luck I I embrace it I always
+say uh do as do as you wish but know
+what you're
+doing and don't hurt yourself or anybody
+else can you get me that T-shirt and I
+will wear it five days through Tuesday
+so here in this regard though I would
+say the evidence would suggest that
+maybe you're compromising your health
+and your Wellness but that's your choice
+voice and I understand it so again no
+judgment to the question however of as
+long as you're not hurting other people
+here I would say that there is a pause
+of a caution because what we know is
+that when you're not getting sufficient
+sleep I described all of the health
+consequences in the first episode
+there's another danger here which is
+road traffic accidents and we describe
+these micro sleeps that happen and why
+car accidents that are caused by
+sleepiness can be so catastrophic
+there's a very interesting study that
+was done where they looked at people
+getting less than 6 hours of sleep for
+several nights and they put them into a
+driving simulator and they asked what is
+the probability that you have a crash or
+an off-road event and sleeping less than
+6 hours a night resulted in a 30%
+increase in you getting into a car
+crash now the AAA release some data
+showing that when you get down to 5
+hours of sleep there is I think it's
+something like two Three Times Higher
+likelihood of an accident based on real
+data and then when you were on 4 hours
+of sleep it was close to a 10 times
+greater risk so in other words the less
+and less sleep that you get it's not a
+linear increase in your risk of a car
+accident it's an exponential increase so
+I bring this back to polyphasic sleep
+because I don't know you know think
+about that 30% study let's not go to the
+extreme just less than 6 hours of sleep
+if this evening you call a taxi and it
+turns out two taxis turned up and
+outside of your door I said look one of
+these two ta you can choose either one
+of them but I'll just tell you that one
+of these taxis has a 30% higher
+likelihood of getting in a crash
+relative to the other and it's this one
+on the right which would you like to
+pick which would you like to put your
+wife and children in to S it's very
+obvious so I rais that question just to
+be mindful no one would wish to cause
+harm on someone else to C carry the harm
+of someone else by way of your own doing
+on your shoulders for the rest of your
+life is not one I would wish for and
+it's not one that you would wish for
+that's the only cautionary note but
+other than that I would say you know
+sort of live life to the full well that
+brings us to the conclusion of yet
+another incredible Voyage into the
+landscape of sleep most notably on the
+different phases monophasic biphasic and
+polyphasic sleep
+and naps and caffeine and all of their
+interactions these are such important
+topics at the level of Concepts the
+level of mechanisms and as you've also
+beautifully described at the level of
+protocols that is actionable tools that
+people can apply so thank you ever so
+much Matt for taking us even further
+along this Voyage I'll just remind
+people that episodes one and two of this
+series that U Matt is uh so generously
+providing information about sleep for us
+are out and those can be accessed
+through links in the show note captions
+um those fill in yet other mechanisms
+and aspects of sleep and I'm also
+particularly excited for the fourth
+installment in this series coming up
+about the relationship between sleep
+memory and creativity so just incredibly
+important topics relevant to everybody I
+also just want to make note that I
+really appreciate you highlighting some
+of the develop velopmental shifts that
+occur with sleep I often get questions
+about um you know sleep in children and
+babies and uh elderly adults as well as
+um all the ages in between and you've
+just um built this incredible tapestry
+of of information for people to think
+about and act upon should they choose so
+thank you Matt ever so much and I look
+forward to episode four Andrew thank you
+it is such a privilege and it remains
+just my absolute Delight to be here with
+you thank you thank you for joining me
+for today's episode with Dr Matthew
+Walker to learn more about Dr Walker's
+research and to learn more about his
+book and his social media handles please
+see the links in our show note captions
+if you're learning from and or enjoying
+this podcast please subscribe to our
+YouTube channel that's a terrific zeroc
+cost way to support us in addition
+please subscribe to the podcast on both
+Spotify and apple and on both Spotify
+and apple you can leave us up to a fstar
+review please also check out the
+sponsors at the beginning and throughout
+today's episode that's the best way to
+support this podcast if if you have any
+questions for me or comments about the
+podcast or topics or guests that you'd
+like me to feature on the hubman Lab
+podcast please put those in the comment
+section on YouTube I do read all the
+comments on many episodes of The hubman
+Lab podcast we discuss supplements while
+supplements aren't necessary for
+everybody many people derive tremendous
+benefit from them for things like
+improving sleep for hormone support and
+for Focus to learn more about the
+supplements discussed on the hubman LA
+podcast go to live momentous spelled o
+us that's Liv mous.com huberman if
+you're if you're not already following
+me on social media I'm hubman lab on all
+social media platforms so that's
+Instagram X LinkedIn Facebook and
+threads and on all those platforms I
+discuss science and science related
+tools some of which overlaps with the
+content of the hubman Lab podcast but
+much of which is distinct from the
+content covered on the hubman Lab
+podcast so again it's hubman lab on all
+social media platforms if you haven't
+already subscribed to our neural network
+newsletter our neural network newsletter
+is a zeroc cost newsletter that provides
+podcast summaries as well as protoc
+calls in the form of brief 1 to
+three-page PDFs that cover everything
+from neuroplasticity and learning to
+sleep to deliberate cold exposure and
+deliberate heat exposure we have a
+foundational Fitness protocol and much
+more all of which again is completely
+zero cost you simply go to huberman
+lab.com go to the menu tab scroll down
+to newsletter and by supplying your
+email you can subscribe I want to point
+out that we do not share your email with
+anybody thank you once again for joining
+me for today's discussion all about
+sleep with Dr Matthew Walker and last
+but certainly not least thank you for
+your interest in science
+[Music]
\ No newline at end of file