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+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Welcome to
+the Huberman Lab podcast,
+where we discuss science
+and science-based tools
+for everyday life.
+[MUSIC PLAYING]
+I'm Andrew Huberman,
+and I'm a Professor
+of Neurobiology
+and Ophthalmology
+at Stanford School of Medicine.
+Today, my guest is
+Dr. Lex Fridman Dr.
+Lex Fridman is an expert
+in electrical and computer
+engineering, artificial
+intelligence, and robotics.
+He is also the host of the
+Lex Fridman Podcast, which
+initially started
+as a podcast focus
+on technology and
+science of various kinds,
+including computer
+science and physics,
+but rapidly evolved to include
+guests and other topics
+as a matter of focus,
+including sport.
+For instance, Dr. Lex
+Freedman is a Black Belt
+in Brazilian jujitsu.
+And he's had numerous
+guests on who
+come from the fields
+of Brazilian jujitsu,
+both from the coaching side
+and from the competitor side.
+He also has shown
+an active interest
+in topics such as chess
+and essentially anything
+that involves intense activation
+and engagement of the mind
+and/or body.
+In fact, the Lex
+Fridman podcast has
+evolved to take on
+very difficult topics
+such as mental health-- he's
+had various psychiatrists
+and other guests on that
+relate to mental health
+and mental illness, as well as
+guest focused on geopolitics
+and some of the more
+controversial issues
+that face our times.
+He's had comedians, he's had
+scientists, he's had friends,
+he's had enemies on his podcast.
+Lex has a phenomenal, I would
+say a 1 in an eight billion
+ability to find these people,
+make them comfortable,
+and in that comfort, both
+try to understand them
+and to confront them and to
+push them so that we all learn.
+All of which is to say that
+Lex Fridman is no longer just
+an accomplished scientist,
+he certainly is that.
+But he has also become one of
+the more preeminent thought
+leaders on the planet.
+And if there's anything
+that really captures
+the essence of Lex
+Fridman, it's his love
+of learning, his desire to share
+with us, the human experience,
+and to broaden that experience
+so that we all may benefit.
+In many ways, our discussion
+during today's episode
+captures the many
+facets of Lex Fridman,
+although no conversation, of
+course, could capture them all.
+We sit down to the
+conversation just days
+after Lex returned from
+Ukraine, where he deliberately
+placed himself into the
+tension of that environment
+in order to understand the
+geopolitics of the region
+and to understand
+exactly what was
+happening at the level of the
+ground and the people there.
+You may notice that he carries
+quite a lot of both, emotion
+and knowledge and understanding.
+And yet in a very
+classic Lex Fridman way,
+you'll notice that
+he's able to zoom out
+of his own experience around
+any number of different topics
+and view them through
+a variety of lenses
+so that first of all, everyone
+feel included, but most of all,
+so that everyone learned
+something new, that
+is to gain new perspective.
+Our discussion also ventures
+into the waters of social media
+and how that
+landscape is changing
+the way that science and
+technology are communicated.
+We also get into the topics of
+motivation drive and purpose,
+both finding it and executing
+on that drive and purpose.
+I should mention that this is
+episode 100 of the Huberman Lab
+Podcast.
+And I would be remiss
+if I did not tell you
+that there would be no
+Huberman Lab Podcast,
+were it not for Lex Fridman.
+I was a fan of the
+Lex Fridman Podcast
+long before I was ever invited
+on to the podcast as a guest.
+And after our first
+recording, Lex
+was the one that suggested
+that I start a podcast.
+He only gave me two
+pieces of advice.
+The first piece of advice
+was, start a podcast.
+And the second
+piece of advice was
+that I not just make it me
+blabbing into the microphone
+and staring at the camera.
+So I can safely say
+that I at least followed
+half of his advice, and that
+I am ever grateful for Lex,
+both as a friend, a
+colleague in science,
+and now fellow podcaster for
+making the suggestion that we
+start this podcast.
+I already mentioned
+a few of the topics
+covered on today's podcast.
+But I can assure you that
+there is far more to the person
+that many of us
+know as Lex Fridman.
+If you are somebody interested
+in artificial intelligence,
+engineering, or robotics,
+today's discussion
+is most certainly for you.
+And if you are not,
+but you are somebody
+who is interested in world
+politics, and more importantly,
+the human experience,
+both the individual
+and the collective
+human experience,
+Lex shares what can
+only be described
+as incredible insights
+into what he views
+as the human experience and what
+is optimal in order to derive
+from our time on this planet.
+Before we begin, I'd
+like to emphasize
+that this podcast is separate
+from my teaching and research
+roles at Stanford.
+It is however, part of
+my desire and effort
+to bring zero cost to
+consumer information
+about science and
+science-related tools
+to the general public.
+In keeping with
+that theme, I'd like
+to thank the sponsors
+of today's podcast.
+Our first sponsor is LMNT.
+LMNT is an electrolyte drink
+with everything you need
+and nothing you don't.
+That means the electrolytes,
+sodium, potassium,
+and magnesium are in LMNT
+in the correct ratios.
+But it has no sugar.
+As I mentioned before
+on the podcast,
+electrolytes are
+critical to the function
+of every cell in the
+body, and especially
+the cells in your brain,
+meaning neurons or nerve cells.
+Indeed, the ability
+for nerve cells
+to be active and communicate
+with one another critically
+depends on sodium,
+potassium, and magnesium.
+You can get electrolytes
+from a variety of sources.
+But it's often hard to get
+them in the proper ratios,
+even from food.
+So if you're somebody who's
+exercising a lot and sweating,
+or if you're somebody
+following, for instance,
+a low carbohydrate or even a
+semi-low carbohydrate diet,
+that will cause you to
+excrete electrolytes.
+I tend to have my
+LMNT first thing
+in the morning when I wake up
+or within the first few hours
+of waking, any time while
+or after I'm exercising,
+or I've sweat a lot, such
+as exiting the sauna.
+If you'd like to try LMNT
+you can go to drinkLMNT--
+that's LMNT..com/Huberman to
+claim a free element sample
+pack with your purchase.
+Again, that's drinkLMNT,
+LMNT.com/Huberman to my free
+sample pack.
+Today's episode is also
+brought to us by Levels.
+Levels is a program
+that lets you
+see how different foods affect
+your health by giving you
+real-time feedback on your
+diet using a continuous glucose
+monitor.
+Now blood glucose or blood
+sugar is a critical aspect
+of your immediate
+and long term health,
+and indeed, your
+feelings of vigor
+and mental clarity and
+well-being at any moment.
+One of the key things is to know
+how different foods and food
+combinations and
+timing of food intake
+is impacting blood glucose.
+And with Levels,
+you're able to assess
+all of that in real time.
+I tried Levels.
+And what it taught
+me, for instance,
+was that I can eat certain
+foods at certain times of day.
+But if I eat them at
+other times a day,
+I get a blood sugar crash.
+It also taught me,
+for instance, how
+to space my exercise
+and my food intake.
+It turns out for me, exercising
+fasted is far more beneficial.
+That's something I
+learned using Levels.
+And it's completely
+transformed, not
+just the spacing and timing
+of my diet and exercise,
+but also use of things like
+the sauna and other activities.
+It's been a tremendous
+learning for me
+that's really shaped an enormous
+number of factors in my life
+that have led to me feeling
+far more vigorous with far more
+mental focus and physical
+strength and endurance.
+So if you're interested in
+learning more about Levels
+and trying a continuous
+glucose monitor yourself,
+go to levels.link/Huberman.
+Again that's levels.link,
+L-I-N-K/Huberman.
+Today's episode is also
+brought to us by Eight Sleep.
+Eight Sleep make smart mattress
+covers with cooling, heating,
+and sleep tracking capacity.
+I've talked many
+times on this podcast
+about the critical relationship
+between sleep and body
+temperature.
+That is in order to fall
+asleep and stay deeply asleep
+throughout the night,
+our body temperature
+needs to drop by
+about 1 to 3 degrees.
+And conversely when we
+wake up in the morning,
+that is in large part,
+because of our body heating up
+by 1 to 3 degrees.
+Now people have different
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+And they tend to run colder or
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+Eight Sleep allows you
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+I started sleeping on
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+And it has completely
+transformed my sleep.
+I sleep so much deeper,
+I wake up far less
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+the night, if at all,
+and I wake up feeling far
+better than I ever have,
+even after the same
+amount of sleep.
+If you want to try
+Eight Sleep, you can go
+to eightsleep.com/Huberman to
+save up to $400 off their sleep
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+Eight Sleep currently
+ships in the USA,
+Canada, United Kingdom,
+select countries in the EU,
+and Australia.
+Again, that's
+eightsleep.com/Huberman.
+And now for my discussion with
+Dr. Lex Fridman, welcome back.
+LEX FRIDMAN: It's good
+to be back in a bedroom.
+This feels like a porn set.
+I apologize to open that way.
+I've never been in a porn
+set, so I should admit this.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Our
+studio has being renovated.
+So here we are for the
+monumental recording
+of episode 100--
+LEX FRIDMAN: Episode
+100 of the Huberman Lab
+Podcast, which was inspired
+by the Lex Fridman Podcast.
+Some people already
+know the story.
+But I'll repeat it again
+for those that don't.
+There would not be a
+Huberman Lab Podcast,
+were it not for Lex Fridman.
+Because after recording
+as a guest on his podcast
+a few years ago, he
+made the suggestion
+that I start a podcast.
+And he explained
+to me how it works.
+And he said, "You
+should start a podcast.
+But just make sure
+that it's not you
+blabbing the whole
+time, Andrew."
+And I only sort of
+followed the advice.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah,
+well, you surprised me,
+surprised the world, that
+you're able to talk for hours
+and cite some of the
+best science going on
+and be able to
+give people advice
+without many interruptions
+or edits or any of that.
+I mean, that takes an
+incredible amount of skill
+that you're probably born with.
+And some of it is developed.
+I mean, the whole science
+community is proud of you, man.
+Stanford is proud of you.
+So yeah, it's a beautiful thing.
+It was really surprising.
+Because it's unclear
+how a scientist can
+do a great podcast
+that's not just
+shooting the shit
+about random stuff,
+but really is giving very
+structured, good advice
+that's boiling down the
+state of the art science
+into something that's
+actually useful for people.
+So that was impressive.
+It's like holy shit, he
+actually pulled this off.
+And doing it every week
+on a different topic--
+I mean, I'm usually
+positive, especially
+for people I love and support.
+But damn, I thought,
+there's no way
+he's going to be able to pull
+this off week after week.
+And it's been only getting
+better and better and better.
+Had a whole rant on a recent
+podcast, I forget with who,
+of how awesome you are
+with Rana el Kaliouby.
+She's a emotion recognition
+person, AI person.
+And then she didn't
+know who you were.
+And I was like, what
+the hell do you mean?
+And I just went on this whole
+rant of how awesome you are.
+Is hilarious.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, I'm
+very gratified to hear this.
+I'm-- it's a little
+uncomfortable for me to hear
+but listen, I'm just really
+happy if people are getting
+information that they like
+and can make actionable.
+And it was inspired by you.
+And look right back at you.
+I've followed a number of
+your structural formats.
+Attire, I don't wear a tie.
+I'm constantly reminded
+about this by my father.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Who says
+what-- he'd saw my podcast.
+And he was like, why
+don't you dress properly
+like your friend Lex?
+He literally said that.
+And it's a debate that
+goes back and forth.
+But nonetheless--
+LEX FRIDMAN: How does it feel?
+Episode 100.
+How does it feel?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+You know, I think.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Can you
+imagine you're here?
+You hear after so many
+episodes and done so much.
+I mean, the number of
+hours is just insane.
+The amount of
+passion, the amount
+of work you put into
+this, what's it feel like?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: It feels great.
+And it feels very much
+like the horizon is still
+at the same distance
+in front of me.
+Every episode, I just try
+and get information there.
+And the process that we
+talked about on your podcast.
+We won't go into it of
+collecting information,
+distilling it down
+to some simple notes,
+walking around,
+listening to music,
+trying to figure out
+what the motifs are,
+and then-- as just like you,
+I don't use a teleprompter
+or anything like that.
+There's very minimal notes.
+So it feels great,
+and I love it.
+And again, I'm just grateful
+to you for inspiring it.
+And I just want to keep
+going and do more of it.
+And I should say
+I am also relieved
+that we're sitting here because
+you recently went overseas
+to a very intense war zone,
+literally, the Ukraine.
+And the entire time
+that you were there,
+I was genuinely concerned.
+The world's a unpredictable
+place, in general.
+And we don't always get the only
+vote and what happens to us.
+So first of all,
+welcome back safely,
+one peace, one alive peace.
+And what was that like?
+I mean, at a broad level,
+at a specific level,
+what drew you there?
+What surprised you?
+And how do you think it changed
+you in coming back here?
+LEX FRIDMAN: I think
+there's a lot to say.
+But first, it is
+really good to be back.
+One of the things
+that when you go
+to a difficult part of the world
+or a part of the world that's
+going through
+something difficult,
+you really appreciate how
+great it is to be an American.
+Everything.
+The easy access to food.
+Despite what people think, the
+stable, reliable rule of law.
+The lack of corruption in that
+you can trust that if you start
+a business or if you take
+on various pursuits in life
+that there's not going to
+be at-scale manipulation
+of your efforts such
+that you can't succeed.
+So this kind of
+capitalism is in it's--
+the ideal of capitalism is
+really still burning bright
+in this country.
+And it really makes you
+appreciate those aspects.
+And also just the ability to
+have a home for generations,
+across generations.
+So you can have your
+grandfather live
+in Kentucky in a certain city.
+And then his children lived
+there, and you live there,
+and then it just
+continues on and on.
+That's the kind of thing you can
+have when you don't have war.
+Because war destroys
+entire communities.
+And it destroys
+histories, generations,
+like life stories that stretch
+across the generations.
+So--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah yeah.
+I didn't even think about
+that until you said just now.
+But photographs, hard drives
+get destroyed or just abandoned.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Libraries.
+I mean, nowadays, things
+exist in the cloud
+but are still a lot of--
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+--material goods
+that are irreplaceable, right.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Well, even in rural
+parts of the United States,
+they don't exist in
+the cloud, right.
+A lot of people still, well,
+even in towns, they still
+love the physical photo
+album of your family.
+A lot of people still
+store their photographs
+of families in the VHS tapes and
+all that kind of stuff, yeah.
+But I think-- there's so many
+things I've learned and really
+felt the lessons.
+One of which is nobody gives a
+damn when your photos are gone
+and all that kind of
+stuff, your house is gone.
+The thing time and time
+again I saw for people
+that lost everything is how
+happy they are for the people.
+They love the friends, the
+family that are still alive.
+That's the only thing
+they talk about.
+That, in fact, they
+don't mention actually
+with much dramatic sort
+of vigor about the trauma
+of losing your home.
+They're just non-stop saying
+how lucky they are that person X
+person Y is still here.
+And that makes you realize
+that when you lose everything,
+it's still--
+it makes you realize
+what really matters,
+which is the people
+in your life.
+I mean, a lot of people kind
+of realize that later in life,
+when you're facing mortality,
+when you're facing your death,
+or you get a cancer
+diagnosis, that kind of stuff.
+I think people here in
+America, in California,
+with the fires, you you
+can still lose your home.
+You are going to
+realize, like, nah.
+It doesn't really matter.
+It's a pain in the ass
+but what matters is still
+the family, the
+people, and so on.
+I think the most intense thing--
+I talked to several hundred
+people, some of which
+is recorded.
+I've really been
+struggling to put that out
+because I have to
+edit it myself.
+And so you're talking about 30,
+40 hours of footage, and it--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Is
+emotionally struggling?
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah.
+It is extremely difficult.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Are you
+like emotional struggle?
+LEX FRIDMAN: It's
+extremely difficult.
+So I talked to a
+lot of politicians.
+The number two in the
+country, number three.
+I'll be back there to
+talk to the president
+to do a three-hour conversation.
+Those are easy to edit.
+They're really heartfelt
+and thoughtful folks
+from different perspectives
+on the geopolitics of the war.
+But the ones that
+really hard to edit
+is like grandmas that are
+in the middle of nowhere.
+They lost everything.
+They still have hope,
+they still have love.
+And some of them have--
+some of them, many of
+them, unfortunately,
+have now hate in their heart.
+So in February, when
+Russia invaded Ukraine,
+this is the thing I
+realized about War.
+One of the most
+painful one lessons
+is that war creates
+generational hate.
+We sometimes think about war
+as a thing that kills people,
+kills civilians, kills
+soldiers, takes away lives,
+injures people.
+But we don't
+directly think about
+the secondary and
+tertiary effects
+of that which lasts decades.
+Which is anyone who's lost
+the father or a mother
+or a daughter or a son,
+they now hate not just
+the individual
+soldiers or the leaders
+that invaded their country but
+the entirety of the people.
+So it's not that they
+hate Vladimir Putin
+or hate the Russian military.
+They hate Russian people.
+So that tears the
+fabric of a thing
+that, for me-- my half
+my family's from Ukraine,
+half of my family
+is from Russia.
+But there is--
+I remember the pain the
+triumph of World War two
+still resonates through
+my entire family tree.
+And so, you remember when
+the Russians and Ukrainians
+fought together against
+this Nazi invasion.
+You remember a lot of that.
+And now, to see the fabric
+of this peoples torn apart
+completely with hate is really,
+really difficult. For me,
+just to realize that
+things will just never
+be the same on this particular
+cultural, historical aspect.
+But also, there's so many
+painful ways in which
+things will never be the same.
+Which is we've seen that
+it's possible to have
+a major hot war in
+the 21st century.
+I think a lot of people
+are watching this.
+China is watching this.
+India is watching this.
+United States is watching this
+and thinking we can actually
+have a large-scale war.
+And I think the lessons
+learned from that.
+Might be the kind that lead
+to a major World War III
+in the 21st century.
+So one of the things I realized
+watching the whole scene
+is that we don't know
+shit about what's going
+to happen in the 21st century.
+And it might-- we kind of have
+this intuition like surely
+there's not going
+to be another war.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Like
+we'll just coast.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah, pandemic.
+Yeah--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+And back to normal.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Back to normal--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Whatever that is.
+LEX FRIDMAN: But you
+have to remember,
+at the end of World War I,
+as Woodrow Wilson called it,
+the war to end all wars.
+Nobody ironically,
+in a dark way,
+it was also the roaring 20s
+when people believed this.
+There will never be
+another World War.
+And 20 years after that,
+the rise of Nazi Germany.
+A charismatic leader
+that captivated
+the minds of
+millions and built up
+a military that can
+take on the whole world.
+And so it makes you realize
+that this is still possible.
+This is still possible.
+And then the tension.
+You see this-- the media
+machine, the propaganda
+machine, that I've gotten
+to see every aspect of.
+It's still fueling that division
+between America and China.
+Between Russia and India.
+And then Africa has
+a complicated thing
+that's trying to figure
+out who are they with,
+who are they against.
+And just this tension is
+building and building.
+And like it makes you
+realize like we might--
+the thing that might
+shake human civilization
+may not be so far off.
+That's a realization
+you get to really feel.
+I mean, there's all
+kinds of other lessons.
+And one of which is propaganda.
+Is I got to--
+I get a lot of letters, emails.
+And some of them are full
+of really intense language,
+full of hate from
+every side toward me.
+Or, well, the hate is
+towards me as representing
+side X. And X stands as a
+variable for every side.
+So either I'm a Zelensky
+show, or I'm a Putin show,
+or I'm a NATO show,
+or I'm an America--
+America show--
+American empire show.
+Or I'm a Democrat
+or a Republican.
+Because it's already been,
+in this country, politicized.
+I think there's a sense of
+Ukraine is this place that's
+full of corruption.
+Why are we sending money there?
+I think that's kind
+of the messaging
+on the Republican side.
+On the Democratic side--
+I'm not even keeping track
+of the actual messaging
+and the conspiracy theories
+and the narratives,
+but they are-- the
+tension is there.
+And I get to feel it directly.
+And what you get to
+really experience
+is there's a large
+number of narratives
+that all are extremely
+confident themselves that they
+know the truth.
+People are convinced,
+first of all,
+that they're not being lied to.
+People in Russia think
+there's no propaganda.
+They think that,
+yes, yes, there is
+like state-sponsored
+propaganda, but we're all
+smart enough to ignore the lame
+propaganda that's everywhere.
+They know that we can think
+on our own, we know the truth,
+and everybody kind of
+speaks in this way.
+Everybody in the
+United States says,
+well, yes, there's
+mainstream media,
+they're full of messaging and
+propaganda, but we're smart.
+We can think on our own.
+Of course, we see through that.
+Everybody says this.
+And then the conclusion
+of their thought
+is often hatred towards some
+group, whatever that group is.
+And the more you've
+lost, the more
+intense the feeling of hatred.
+It's a really
+difficult field to walk
+through calmly and
+with an open mind
+and try to understand
+what's really going on.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+It's super intense.
+That's the only words that
+come to mind as I hear this.
+You mentioned something that
+it seems that hate generalizes.
+It's against an entire
+group or an entire country.
+Why do you think it is that
+hate generalizes and that love
+may or may not generalize?
+LEX FRIDMAN: I've
+had-- sort of one,
+as you can imagine, the
+kind of question I asked
+is, do you have love
+or hate in your heart?
+It's a question I
+asked almost everybody.
+And then I would dig
+into this exact question
+that you're asking.
+I think some of the most
+beautiful things I've
+heard which is people
+that are full of hate
+are able to
+self-introspect about it.
+They know they shouldn't feel
+it, but they can't help it.
+It's not-- they know that
+ultimately the thing that
+helps them and helps everyone
+is to feel love for fellow man,
+but they can't help it.
+They know.
+It's like a drug, they
+say like hate escalates,
+it's like a vicious spiral.
+You just can't help it.
+And the question I
+also asked is, do you
+think you'll ever be
+able to forgive Russia?
+And after much thought almost--
+it's split, but most
+people will say no.
+I will never be able to forgive.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: And because
+of the generalization
+you talked about earlier, that
+could even include all Ru--
+LEX FRIDMAN: All Russians.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+In that statements,
+they mean all Russians.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Because
+if you do nothing
+that's as bad or worse
+than being part of the army
+that invades.
+So the people that are
+just sitting there,
+the good Germans, the people
+that are just quietly going
+on with their lives, you're
+just as bad, if not worse,
+is their perspective.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Earlier, you said
+that going over
+to the Ukraine now
+allowed you to
+realize just so many
+of the positives of being
+here in the United States.
+I have a good friend.
+We both know him.
+I won't name him
+by name, but we've
+communicated the
+three of us from
+tier-one Special Operations.
+He spent years
+doing deployments.
+Really amazing individual.
+And I remember when the pandemic
+hit, he said on a text thread
+you know, Americans aren't used
+to the government interfering
+with their plans.
+Around the world,
+many people are
+familiar with governments
+dramatically interfering
+with their plans.
+Sometimes even in a
+seemingly random way.
+Here we were not
+braced for that.
+I mean, we get speeding
+tickets, and there's lines
+to vote and things like that.
+But I think the pandemic
+was one of the first times,
+at least in my life, that I
+can remember where it really
+seemed like the government was
+impeding what people naturally
+wanted to do.
+And that was a shock
+for people here.
+And I have a what might
+seem like a somewhat
+mundane question,
+but it's something
+that I saw on social media.
+A lot of people were
+asking me to ask you,
+and I was curious about too.
+What was a typical
+day like over there?
+Were sleeping in a bed, were
+you sleeping on the ground?
+Everyone seems to want to know.
+What were you eating?
+Were you eating once a day?
+Were you eating your steak?
+Or were you-- were you in fairly
+deprived conditions over there?
+I saw a couple photos
+that you posted out
+of doors in front of rubble.
+With pith helmet on in one case.
+What was that typical
+day like over there?
+LEX FRIDMAN: So
+there's two modes.
+One of them-- I spent
+a lot of time in Kyiv,
+which is much safer than--
+it may be obvious to state
+but for people who don't know,
+it's in the middle
+of the country,
+and it's much safer
+than the actual front.
+The word the battle
+is happening.
+So much, much safer
+than Kyiv even
+is Lviv which is the
+Western part of the country.
+So the times I
+spent in Kyiv were
+fundamentally different than
+the time I spent at the front.
+And I went to the
+Kherson region,
+which is where a lot of really
+heated battle was happening.
+There's several areas.
+So there's Kharkiv.
+It's in the Northeast
+of the country.
+And then there's Donbas region,
+which is East of the country.
+And then there's Kherson
+region, which, by the way,
+I'm not good at geography, so
+is the Southeast of the country.
+And that's where, at
+least when I was there,
+was a lot of really
+heated fighting happening.
+So when I was in
+the Kherson region,
+it's what you would imagine.
+The place-- I stayed in a
+hotel where all the lights
+have to stay off.
+So the entire town,
+all the lights are off.
+You have to navigate
+through the darkness
+and use your phone
+to shine, and so on.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: This is
+terrible for the circadian
+system.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah.
+LEX FRIDMAN: That's exactly--
+I was this-- how can I do this?
+Where's my element
+and Athletic Greens?
+How can I function?
+No.
+There's I think it was balanced
+by the deep appreciation
+of being alive.
+[LAUGHTER]
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Right now I-- mean,
+this is the reason
+that I asked--
+LEX FRIDMAN: Stress-wise.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+This is the reason
+I ask is we get used to all
+these creature comforts.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yes.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: And
+we don't need them,
+but we often come
+to depend on them
+in a way that makes us
+feel like we need them.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah,
+but very quickly,
+there's something about
+the intensity of life
+that you see in people's
+eyes because they're
+living through a war that makes
+you forget all those creature
+comforts.
+And it was actually--
+I'm somebody who hates
+traveling and so on.
+I love the creature habits.
+I love-- I love the
+comfort of the ritual right
+but all of that was
+forgotten very quickly.
+Just the intensity of
+feeling, the intensity of
+love that people have for
+each other, that was obvious.
+In terms of food--
+so there's a curfew.
+So depends on what
+part of the country.
+But usually, you basically have
+to scamper home like 9:00 PM.
+So the hard curfew in a lot of
+places is 11:00 PM at night.
+But by then, you
+have to be home.
+So-- in some places, it's 10:00.
+So at 9:00 PM, you
+start going home.
+Which, for me, was
+kind of wonderful
+also because I get to spend--
+I get to be forced to spend time
+alone and think for many hours
+in wherever I'm staying.
+Which is really nice.
+And everywhere there's a
+calmness and the quietness
+to the whole thing.
+In terms of food, once a day.
+Just the food is incredibly
+cheap and incredibly delicious.
+People are still--
+one of the things
+they can still take pride
+in is making the best
+possible food they can.
+So meat-- but they do
+admire American meat,
+so the meat is not as great as
+it could be in that country.
+But I ate borsch every day,
+all that kind of stuff.
+Mostly meat.
+So spend the entire day--
+wake up in the
+morning with coffee,
+spend the entire day
+talking to people.
+Which for me is very
+difficult because
+of the intensity of the story.
+It's one after the
+other after the other.
+We just talk to regular
+people, talk to soldiers,
+talk to politicians,
+all kinds of soldiers.
+I talked to people there who
+are doing rescue missions, so
+Americans.
+I hung out with Tim Kennedy.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh, yeah?
+The great Tim Kennedy.
+LEX FRIDMAN: The great
+Tim Kennedy, who--
+also him and many
+others revealed to me
+one of the many
+reasons I'm proud to be
+an American is how trained
+and skilled and effective
+American soldiers are.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I guess for
+listeners of this podcast maybe
+we should familiarize
+them with who
+Tim Kennedy is because I
+realized that a number of them
+will know, but--
+LEX FRIDMAN: How do you do that?
+How do you try to
+summarize a man?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Right.
+We can be accurate
+but not exhaustive,
+as any good data are
+accurate but not exhaustive.
+Very skilled and accomplished
+MMA fighter, very skilled
+and accomplished former
+Special Operations member,
+American Patriot, and
+podcaster too, right?
+Does he have his own podcast?
+LEX FRIDMAN: Maybe.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: OK.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Maybe.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: We know Andy
+Stumpf has his own podcast.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yes.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Which is
+an amazing podcast.
+Yeah, Andy's great.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah.
+Clearing Hot podcast
+with Andy Stumpf.
+LEX FRIDMAN: But
+also Tim Kennedy
+is like the embodiment of
+America to the most beautiful
+and the most ridiculous degree.
+So he's like what you imagine--
+what is it, Team America?
+I just imagine him
+shirtless on a tank rolling
+into enemy territory
+just screaming
+at the top of his lungs.
+That's just his personality.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+But not posturing.
+He actually does the
+work, as they say.
+LEX FRIDMAN: So
+this is the thing.
+He really embodies that.
+Now, some of that is just
+his personality and humor.
+I'd like to sort of comment
+on the humor of things,
+not just with him.
+There's very one other
+interesting thing I've learned.
+But also when he's
+actually helping people
+he's extremely good
+at what he does,
+which is building
+teams that rescue, that
+go into the most dangerous areas
+of Ukraine, dangerous areas
+anywhere else, and
+they get the job done.
+And one of the things I
+heard time and time again,
+which what's really
+interesting to me,
+that Ukrainian soldiers said
+that comparing Ukrainian,
+Russian, and American
+soldiers, American soldiers
+are the bravest, which was
+very interesting for me
+to hear given how
+high the morale is
+for the Ukrainian soldiers.
+But that just
+reveals that training
+enables you to be brave.
+So it's not just about how well
+trained they are and so on,
+it's how intense and ferocious
+they are in the fighting.
+And it makes you realize,
+this is American army,
+not just through the technology,
+especially the special force
+guys.
+They're still one of
+the most effective
+and terrifying
+armies in the world.
+And listen, just
+for context, I'm
+somebody who is, for the most
+part, anti-war, a pacifist.
+But you get to see some of the
+realities of war kind of wake
+you up to what needs to get
+done to protect sovereignty,
+to protect some of the values,
+to protect civilians and homes
+and all that kind of stuff.
+Sometimes war has to happen.
+And I should also
+mention the Russian side
+because while I haven't gotten
+to experience the Russian side
+yet I do fully plan to travel to
+Russia, as I've told everybody.
+I was very upfront with
+everybody about this.
+I would like to hear
+the story of Russians.
+But I do know from the Ukrainian
+side, like the grandmas--
+I love grandmas.
+They told me stories that
+the Russians really--
+the ones that entered their
+villages, they really, really
+believed they're saving
+Ukraine from Nazis,
+from Nazi occupation.
+So they feel that
+Ukraine is under control
+of Nazi organizations
+and they believe
+they're saving
+the country that's
+their brothers and sisters.
+I think propaganda and I think
+truth is a very difficult thing
+to arrive with in that war zone.
+I think in the 21st
+century one of the things
+you realize that so much of war,
+even more so than in the past,
+is an information war.
+And people that just use Twitter
+for their source of information
+might be surprised to know
+how much misinformation there
+is on Twitter, like real
+narratives being sold,
+and so it's really hard
+to know who to believe.
+And through all of that you
+have to try to keep an open mind
+and ultimately
+ignore the powerful
+and listen to actual
+citizens, actual people.
+That's the other
+maybe obvious lesson
+is that war is waged by
+powerful, rich people,
+and it's the poor
+people that suffer.
+And that's just visible
+time and time again.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: You mentioned
+the fact that people still
+enjoy food or the
+pleasure of cooking,
+or there's occasional humor
+or maybe frequent humor.
+I know Jocko Willink has
+talked about this in warfare
+in that all the elements of
+the human spirit and condition
+still emerge at various times.
+I find this amazing,
+and you and I
+have had conversations
+about this before,
+but the aperture of the mind.
+The classic story
+that comes to mind
+is the one of Viktor
+Frankl or Nelson Mandela.
+You put somebody into a
+small box of confinement
+and some people break
+under those conditions
+and other people
+find entire stories
+within a centimeter
+of concrete that
+can occupy them, real stories
+and richness or humor or love
+or fascination and surprise.
+And I find this so interesting
+that the mind is so adaptable.
+We talked about creature
+comforts and then lack
+of creature comforts and
+the way that we can adapt,
+and yet, humans are
+always striving,
+it seems, or one would hope,
+for these better conditions
+to better their conditions.
+So as you've come back--
+and you've been here
+now back in the States
+for how long after your trip?
+LEX FRIDMAN: Depends
+on this podcast
+release but it felt
+like I've never
+left, so practically
+speaking, a couple months.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: OK.
+Yeah.
+And we won't be shy.
+We're recording
+this mid-September.
+LEX FRIDMAN: We actually
+recorded this several years ago
+so we're anticipating
+in the future.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+This is where we're
+going to start telling you this
+is a simulation, you and Joe.
+I'm still trying to figure
+out what that actually means.
+I'd like to take a quick
+break and acknowledge
+one of our sponsors,
+Athletic Greens.
+Athletic Greens, now called AG1,
+is a vitamin mineral probiotic
+drink that covers all of your
+foundational nutritional needs.
+I've been taking Athletic
+Greens since 2012
+so I'm delighted that they're
+sponsoring the podcast.
+The reason I started taking
+Athletic Greens and the reason
+I still take Athletic Greens,
+once or usually twice a day,
+is that it gets
+me the probiotics
+that I need for gut health.
+Our gut is very important.
+It's populated by
+gut microbiota that
+communicate with the brain, the
+immune system, and basically
+all the biological
+systems of our body
+to strongly impact our
+immediate and long term health,
+and those probiotics
+in Athletic Greens
+are optimal and vital
+for microbiotic health.
+In addition, Athletic
+Greens contains
+a number of adaptogens,
+vitamins, and minerals
+that make sure that all of my
+foundational nutritional needs
+are met, and it tastes great.
+If you'd like to try
+Athletic Greens you can go
+to athleticgreens.com/huberman
+and they'll give you five free
+travel packs that make it really
+easy to mix up Athletic Greens
+while you're on the road, in the
+car, on the plane, et cetera,
+and they'll give you a year
+supply of vitamin D3, K2.
+Again, that's
+athleticgreens.com/huberman
+to get the five free travel
+packs and the year supply
+of vitamin D3, K2.
+I know I speak for
+many people when
+I say that we are very
+happy that you're back.
+We know that it's not going
+to be the first and last trip,
+that there will be
+others, and that you'll
+be going to Russia as well
+and presumably other places
+as well in order to explore.
+And I have to say, as a
+podcaster and as your friend,
+I was really inspired at
+your sense of adventure
+and your sense of
+not just adventure,
+but thoughtful,
+respectful adventure.
+You understood what
+you were doing.
+You weren't just going there
+to get some wartime footage
+or something.
+This wasn't a kick or a thrill.
+This is really serious
+and remains serious.
+So thank you for doing it,
+and please, next time you go,
+bring Tim Kennedy again.
+LEX FRIDMAN: I feel like
+Tim Kennedy gets you into--
+will take you because
+he really loves
+going to the most dangerous
+places and helping people.
+So I think he'd get me into
+more trouble than it's worth.
+And I should mention
+that, I mean,
+there's many reasons I
+went, but it's definitely
+not something I take
+lightly or want to do again.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Right.
+LEX FRIDMAN: So I'm doing
+things that I don't want to do,
+I just feel like I have to.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+You're compelled.
+LEX FRIDMAN: So I
+don't think there's--
+now I'll definitely talk
+about it, as we all should.
+There's different
+areas of the world that
+are seeing a lot of suffering.
+Yemen.
+There's so many atrocities
+going on in the world today,
+but this one is just
+personal to me so I want to--
+I feel like I'm qualified
+just because of the language.
+So most of the talking,
+by the way, I was doing,
+it was in Russian.
+And so because of the language,
+because of my history,
+I felt like I had to do
+this particular thing.
+I think it's, in many ways,
+stupid and dangerous, and that
+was made clear to me.
+But I do many things
+of this nature
+because the heart
+pulls towards that.
+But also there's
+a freedom to not--
+I'm afraid of death, but I
+think there's a freedom to--
+it's almost like,
+OK, if I die, I
+want to take full advantage of
+not having a family currently.
+I feel like when you
+have a family there's
+a responsibility for others
+so you immediately become
+more conservative and careful.
+I feel like I want to
+take full advantage
+of this particular
+moment in my life
+when you can be a little
+bit more accepting of risk.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well,
+you should definitely
+reproduce at some point.
+Maybe before next time you
+should just freeze some sperm.
+LEX FRIDMAN: I--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Really, that--
+LEX FRIDMAN: Is that what
+you do with ice baths?
+Is how that works?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: You
+know, it's interesting.
+There's always an opportunity
+to do some science protocols.
+You know that there are
+products on the internet,
+and there are actually a few
+decent manuscripts looking
+at how cold exposure can
+increase testosterone levels,
+but it doesn't happen
+by the cold directly.
+Good scientists, as the authors
+of those papers, were and are,
+realized that it's the
+vasoconstriction and then
+the vasodilation.
+As people warm up again
+there's increased blood flow
+to the testicles,
+and in women it
+seems there's probably
+increased blood flow
+to the reproductive organs as
+well after people warm back up.
+So that seems to cause some
+sort of hyper nourishment
+of the various cells, the
+Sertoli and Leydig cells
+of the testes that
+lead to increased
+output of testosterone and in
+women testosterone as well.
+So the cold exposure in
+any case is obviously a--
+do you do the ice bath?
+Are you into that?
+LEX FRIDMAN: I've
+not done that yet.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: As a
+Russian you probably consider
+that a hot tub.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah, exactly.
+Yeah.
+It's a nice thing to have fun
+with every once in a while
+to warm up.
+No, I haven't done that.
+Been kind of waiting
+to maybe do it together
+with you at some point.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Great.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Because
+we have a guide.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+We have one here.
+It'll be
+straightforward for you.
+I always say that the
+adrenaline comes in waves,
+and so if you just
+think about it walls,
+like you're going through a
+number of walls of adrenaline
+as opposed to going for time,
+it becomes rather trivial.
+With your jujitsu
+background and what
+you'll immediately recognize
+the physiological sensation.
+Even though it's
+cold specifically,
+it's the adrenaline
+that makes you
+want to hop out of the thing.
+LEX FRIDMAN: And
+you've seen Joe's.
+So Joe set up a
+really nice man cave--
+or it's not even a cave
+because it's so big.
+It's like a network
+of man caves.
+But it has a ice bath and
+a sauna next to each other.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: We have one of
+those here, ice bath and sauna.
+So we'll have to get you
+in it one of these days.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Sounds
+like trouble.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Maybe
+tonight, maybe tomorrow.
+No, although there is a--
+I don't know the underlying
+physiological basis
+but there does seem to
+be a trend toward truth
+telling in the sauna.
+Some people will refer
+to them as truth barrels.
+Mine's a barrel sauna
+shaped like a barrel.
+Who knows why?
+Maybe under intense
+heat duress people just
+feel compelled to share.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Well, I have
+a complicated relationship
+with saunas because of
+all the weight cutting.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Some of
+the deepest suffering--
+sorry to interrupt--
+I've done was in the sauna.
+It's very-- I mean, I've gone
+to some dark places in a sauna
+because, I mean, I wrestled
+my whole life, judo, jujitsu,
+and those weights cuts
+can really test the mind.
+So you're-- truth telling.
+Yeah, it's a certain
+kind of truth
+telling because
+you're sitting there
+and the clock moves slower than
+it has ever moved in your life.
+Yeah.
+So I usually, for
+the most part, I
+would try to have a bunch of
+sweats, garbage bags, and all
+that kind of stuff, and run.
+It's easier because you
+can distract the mind.
+In the sauna you can't
+distract the mind.
+It's just and all the excuses
+and all the weaknesses
+in your mind just
+coming to the surface,
+and you're just sitting there
+and sweating-- or not sweating.
+That's the worst.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: And talk
+about visual aperture.
+You're in a small box so it also
+inspires some claustrophobia
+even if you're not
+claustrophobic.
+That's absolutely true.
+And the desire to just
+get out of the thing
+is where you get a pretty
+serious adrenaline surge
+from in the sauna as well.
+Now, the sauna actually will--
+it won't deplete testosterone
+but it kills sperm.
+So for people that--
+sperm are on a 60
+day sperm cycle
+so if you're trying
+to donate sperm--
+because that's what
+got us on to this--
+or fertilize an egg or
+eggs in whatever format,
+dish or in vivo, as we say
+in science, which means--
+well, you can look it up, folks.
+The 60 day sperm cycle.
+So if you go into
+a really hot sauna
+or a hot bath or a
+hot tub, in 60 days
+those sperm are going to be--
+a significantly
+greater portion of them
+will be dead, will
+be non-viable.
+So there's a simple solution.
+People just put ice pack down
+there or a jar, not this jar,
+but a jar of cold fluid between
+their legs and just sit there,
+or they go back and
+forth between the ice
+bath and the sauna.
+But you probably-- if you're
+going to go back over there
+you should freeze sperm.
+We're going to do a couple
+episodes on fertility when
+it's relatively inexpensive.
+And you're young so
+you probably do it now
+because there is a association
+with autism as males get older.
+It's not a strong one.
+It's significant but it's
+still a small contribution
+to the autism phenotype.
+LEX FRIDMAN: As you age
+don't sperm get wiser or no?
+There's no science to back that?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: No, but men
+can conceive healthy children
+at a considerable age.
+But in any case--
+but no, they don't get wiser.
+What happens is interesting--
+LEX FRIDMAN: Finely aged steak.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, it's a
+little bit like the maturation
+of the brain in the sense
+that some of the sperm
+get much better at swimming
+and then many of them
+get less good.
+Motility is a strong correlate
+of the DNA of the sperm.
+LEX FRIDMAN: This is
+probably a good time
+to announce that I'm
+selling my sperm as an NFTs.
+I wanted to see how much that--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh my goodness.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Riding
+the crypto wave.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, your
+children, your future children
+and my future children, are
+supposed to do jujitsu together
+since I've only done
+the one jujitsu class
+so I'm strongly vested
+in you having children.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yes.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: But only
+in the friendly kind of way.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Well, yes.
+Friendly competition
+kind of way.
+Yeah.
+Dominance of the clan.
+Yep.
+For sure.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: So moving
+on to science, but still
+with our minds in the Ukraine.
+Did you encounter any scientists
+or see any universities?
+As we know, in this country
+and in Europe and elsewhere,
+science takes infrastructure.
+You need buildings, you need
+laboratories, you need robots,
+you need a lot of equipment,
+and you need minus 80 freezers
+and you need incubators
+and you need money
+and you need technicians.
+And typically it's been
+the wealthier countries
+that have been able to
+do more research for sake
+of research and development
+and prioritization.
+Certainly the Ukraine had
+some marvelous universities
+and marvelous scientists.
+What's going on with science
+and scientists over there?
+And gosh, can we even
+calculate the loss of discovery
+that is occurring as a
+consequence of this conflict?
+LEX FRIDMAN: So science goes on.
+Before the war Ukraine had
+a very vibrant tech sector,
+which means engineering
+and all that kind of stuff,
+and Kyiv has a lot of
+excellent universities
+and they still go on.
+The biggest hit, I
+would say, is not
+the infrastructure
+of the science,
+but the fact, because
+of the high morale,
+everybody is joining
+the military.
+So everybody is
+going to the front
+to fight, including you, Andrew
+Huberman, would be fighting,
+and not because you have
+to but because you want to.
+And everybody you know
+would be really proud
+that you're fighting,
+even though everyone tries
+to convince, Andrew
+Huberman, you
+have much better
+ways to contribute.
+There's deep honor in fighting
+for your country, yes,
+but there are better ways to
+contribute to your country
+than just picking up a gun that
+you're not that trained with
+and going to the front.
+Still, they do it.
+Scientists, engineers,
+CEOs, professors, students--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Men and women?
+LEX FRIDMAN: Actors--
+men and women.
+Obviously, primarily
+men, but men and women.
+Much more than you would
+see in other militaries,
+women are-- everybody.
+Everybody wants to fight.
+Everybody's proud of fighting.
+There's no discussion
+of pacifism.
+Should we be fighting?
+Is this right?
+Is this-- everybody's
+really proud of fighting.
+So there's this
+kind of black hole
+that pulls everything,
+all the resources,
+into the war effort that's
+not just financial but also
+psychological.
+So it's like if you're a
+scientist it feels like what--
+it feels almost like
+you're dishonoring humanity
+by continuing to do things
+you were doing before.
+There's a lot of people that
+converted to being soldiers.
+They literally watch
+a YouTube video
+of how to shoot
+a particular gun,
+how to arm a drone
+with a grenade.
+If you're a tech
+person you know how
+to work with drones so
+you're going to use that,
+use whatever skills you got,
+figure out whatever skills
+you got and how to use them to
+help the effort on the front.
+And so that's a big hit.
+But that said, I've talked
+to a lot of folks in Kyiv--
+faculty primarily in the
+tech economics space,
+so I didn't get a chance
+to interact with folks who
+are on the biology, chemistry,
+neuroscience side of things,
+but that still goes on.
+So one of the really
+impressive things about Ukraine
+is that they're able to maintain
+infrastructure like road, food
+supply, all that kind of stuff,
+education, while the war is
+going on, especially in Kyiv.
+The war started
+where nobody knew
+whether Kyiv was going to be
+taken by the Russian forces.
+It was surrounded.
+And a lot of experts from
+outside were convinced that
+Russia would take
+Kyiv, and they didn't.
+And one of the really
+impressive things as a leader--
+one of the things I
+really experienced
+is that a lot of people
+criticized Zelenskyy
+before the war.
+He only had about
+30% approval rate.
+A lot of people
+didn't like Zelenskyy.
+But one of the
+great things he did
+as a leader, which I'm not
+sure many leaders would
+be able to do, is when Kyiv
+was clearly being invaded he
+chose to stay.
+He stayed in the capital.
+Everybody, all the American
+military, the intelligence
+agencies, NATO, his own staff,
+advisors all told him to flee,
+and he stayed.
+And so I think that was a
+beacon, a symbol for the rest,
+for the universities,
+for science,
+for the infrastructure
+that we're staying too,
+and that kept the
+whole thing going.
+There's an interesting social
+experiment that happened,
+I think for folks who
+are interested in gun
+control in this
+country in particular,
+is one of the decisions
+they made early on
+is to give guns to everybody.
+Semi-automatics.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Early on in the war?
+LEX FRIDMAN: Early
+on in the war, yeah.
+So everybody got a gun.
+They also released
+a bunch of prisoners
+from prison because
+there was no staff
+to keep the prisons running.
+And so there's a
+very interesting
+psychological experiment of,
+like, how is this going to go?
+Everybody has a gun.
+Are they going to
+start robbing places?
+Are they going to
+start taking advantage
+of a chaotic situation?
+And what happened is
+that crime went to zero.
+So it turned out that
+this, as an experiment,
+worked wonderfully.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: That's a
+case where love generalized.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yes.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Or
+at least hate did not.
+We don't know if it's
+love or it's sort of lack
+of initiative for common
+culture directed hate.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah.
+I don't-- right.
+I think that's very correct
+to say that it wasn't
+hate that was unifying people.
+It was love of country,
+love of community.
+It's probably the same thing
+that will happen to humans when
+aliens invade as well.
+It's the common effort.
+Everybody puts everything
+else to the side.
+Plus just the sheer amount
+of guns is similar to Texas.
+You realize, well,
+there's going to be
+a self-correcting mechanism very
+quickly because the rule of law
+was also put aside, right?
+Basically the police
+force lost a lot of power
+because everybody else
+has guns and they're
+kind of taking the law
+into their own hands.
+That system, at least
+in this particular case
+in this particular moment
+in human history, worked.
+It's an interesting
+lesson, you know?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: It is.
+I had an interesting contrast
+that I'll share with you
+because you mentioned Texas.
+So not so long ago
+I was in Austin.
+I often visit you or others
+in Austin, as you know.
+And many doors that I walked
+past, including a school,
+said no firearms
+past this point.
+It was a sticker on the door.
+You see this on
+hospitals sometimes.
+I saw this at Baylor College
+of Medicine, et cetera.
+Relatively common
+to see in Texas,
+not so common in California.
+And then I flew to the
+San Francisco Bay Area,
+was walking by an elementary
+school in my old neighborhood,
+and saw a similar
+sticker and looked at it
+and it said, no peanuts
+or other allergy
+containing foods past
+this point on the door
+of this elementary school.
+So quite a different
+contrast, guns and peanuts.
+Now, peanut allergies,
+obviously, are very serious
+for some people, although
+there's great research out
+of Stanford showing that
+early exposure to peanuts
+can prevent the allergies.
+But don't start rubbing yourself
+in peanut butter, folks,
+if you have a peanut allergy.
+That's not the best
+way to deal with it.
+In any case, the
+contrast of what's
+dangerous, the contrast of
+the familiarity with guns
+versus no familiarity.
+In Israel and elsewhere you see
+machine guns in the airport.
+In Germany, Frankfurt, you see
+machine guns in the airport.
+Not so common in
+the United States.
+So again, I feel like there's
+this aperture of vision.
+There's this aperture of
+pleasures versus creature
+comforts and lack of
+creature comforts,
+and then there's this
+aperture of danger, right?
+People who are
+familiar with guns
+are familiar with people
+coming in and setting
+their firearm on the table
+and eating dinner, you know?
+But if you're not accustomed
+to that it's jarring, right?
+LEX FRIDMAN: I should mention--
+people know this
+throughout human history--
+but the human ability
+to get assimilated now,
+get used to violence
+is incredible.
+So you could be living
+in a peaceful time,
+like we're here now, and
+there would be one explosion,
+like a 9/11 type of situation.
+That would be a huge shock.
+It's terrifying.
+Everybody freaks out.
+The second one is a huge drop
+off in how freaked out you get.
+And in a matter of
+days, sometimes hours,
+it becomes the normal.
+I've talked to so many
+people in Kharkiv,
+which is one of the towns that's
+seen a lot of heated battle.
+You ask them, is it safe there?
+In fact, when I went to the--
+closer and closer to the
+war zone you ask people,
+is it safe?
+And their answer's usually,
+yeah, it's pretty safe.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's
+all signal to noise.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Nobody has told
+me except Western reporters
+sitting in the West
+Side of Ukraine,
+it's really dangerous here.
+Everyone's like,
+yeah, it's good.
+My uncle just died yesterday.
+He was shot.
+But it's pretty good.
+The farm is still running.
+How do I put it?
+They focus on the
+positive, that's one.
+But there's a
+deeper truth there,
+which is just get used
+to difficult situations
+and the stuff that
+make you happy
+and the stuff that
+make you upset
+is relative to that new
+normal that you establish.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well,
+I grew up in California
+and there were a
+lot of earthquakes.
+I remember the '89
+quake, I remember
+the Embarcadero
+Freeway pancaking
+on top of people and cars.
+I remember I moved to
+Southern California,
+there was a Northridge quake.
+Wherever I move there
+seem to be earthquakes.
+I never worry about
+earthquakes, ever.
+I just don't.
+In fact, I don't
+like the destruction
+they cause, but every once
+in a while an earthquake will
+roll through and it's
+kind of exciting.
+It sounds like a
+train coming through.
+It's like, wow, like
+the Earth is moving.
+You know?
+Again, I don't want
+anyone to get harmed,
+but I enjoy a good rumble
+coming through nonetheless.
+It's signal to noise.
+But if I saw a
+tornado I'd freak out,
+and people from the Midwest
+are probably comfortable with--
+Dan Gable, the great
+wrestler from the Midwest
+that you know and I've
+never met but I have
+great respect for, he's
+probably-- sees a tornado
+and is like, ah, yeah.
+Maybe.
+Yeah.
+You know?
+So I think signal
+to noise is real.
+Before I neglect,
+although I won't
+forget, speaking of signal
+to noise and environment,
+you are returning
+to or have gone back
+to one of your original
+natural habitats,
+which is the Massachusetts
+Institute of Technology which
+is--
+LEX FRIDMAN: Natural
+habitat, yeah.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's actually
+difficult to pronounce in full.
+MIT, right?
+So you've been spending some
+time there teaching and doing
+other things.
+Tell us what you're up
+to with MIT recently.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Well, I'm
+really glad that you,
+being on the West Coast, know
+the difference between Boston,
+New York.
+I feel like a lot of people
+think it's like the East Coast.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's
+very different, especially
+the Bostonians and New Yorkers.
+LEX FRIDMAN: They
+get very aggressive.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh my goodness.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah, I love it.
+I gave lectures there in
+front of a in person crowd.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: What
+were you talking about?
+LEX FRIDMAN: For the
+AI, so different aspects
+of AI and robotics, machine
+learning-- machine learning.
+So for people who know the
+artificial intelligence field
+they usually don't
+use the term AI,
+and people from outside AIs.
+The biggest breakthroughs
+in the machine
+learning field with some
+discussion of robotics
+and so on.
+Yeah.
+It was in person.
+It was wonderful.
+I'm a sucker for that.
+I really avoided teaching
+or any kind of interaction
+during COVID because people
+put a lot of emphasis
+on but also got comfortable
+with remote teaching,
+and I think nobody enjoyed it.
+Except there's a notion
+that it's much easier to
+do because you don't
+have to travel.
+You can do it in your
+pajamas kind of thing.
+But when you actually
+get to do it,
+you don't get the
+same kind of joy
+that you do when
+you're teaching.
+As a student you don't get the
+same kind of joy of learning.
+It's not as effective and
+all that kind of stuff.
+So to be in person together
+with people, to see their eyes,
+to get their excitement, to
+get the questions and all
+the interactions,
+that was awesome.
+And I'm still a sucker and a
+believer in the ideal of MIT,
+of the University.
+I think it's an
+incredible place.
+There's something
+in the air still.
+But it really hit--
+the pandemic hit
+universities hard because--
+and I can say this.
+This is not you saying it.
+This is me saying it.
+That administrations--
+as in all cases
+when people criticize
+institutions,
+the pandemic has given more
+power to the administration
+and taken away power from
+the faculty and the students,
+and that's from
+everybody involved,
+including the administration.
+That's a concern
+because a university
+is about the teachers
+and the students.
+That should be primary.
+And whenever you have
+a pandemic there's
+an opportunity to increase
+the amount of rules.
+One of the things that
+really bothered me,
+and I'll scream from
+the top of the MIT dome,
+about this is they've instituted
+a new temp ticket system.
+Which is if you're a visitor
+to the campus at MIT,
+you have to register.
+You have to, first of all,
+show that you're vaccinated,
+but more importantly, there's
+a process to visiting.
+You need to get
+permission to visit.
+One of the reasons I loved MIT,
+unlike some other institutions,
+MIT just leaves the
+door open to anyone.
+In classrooms you can roll
+in the ridiculous characters.
+The students that
+are usually doing
+business stuff or economics
+can roll into a physics class
+and just-- you're
+kind of not allowed
+but it's a gray area
+so you let that happen,
+and that creates a flourishing
+of a community that
+was beautiful.
+And I think adding extra rules
+puts a squeeze on and limits
+some of the
+flourishing, and I hope
+some of that
+dissipates over time
+as we kind of let go of
+the risk aversion that
+was created by the pandemic.
+As we kind of enter
+the normal return back
+some of that
+flourishing can happen.
+But when you're actually
+in there with the students,
+it was magic.
+I love it.
+I love it.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, some
+of your earliest videos
+on your YouTube channel were
+of you in the classroom, right?
+That's how this all started.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah.
+Yeah.
+That's how YouTube--
+putting stuff on YouTube
+is terrifying, right?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Well, especially
+at the time when you did it.
+Again, you're a
+pioneer in that sense.
+You did that, Jordan
+Peterson did that.
+Putting up lectures is--
+yeah.
+I teach still.
+Every winter I teach--
+direct a course, and I'll
+be doing even more teaching
+going forward.
+But the idea of those
+videos being on the web is--
+yeah, that spikes my
+cortisol a little bit.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah.
+It's terrifying
+because you get--
+and everybody has a
+different experience.
+For me being a junior
+research scientist
+the kind of natural
+concern is like, who am I?
+And when I was giving
+this lecture it's like,
+I don't deserve any of this.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: That's your
+humility coming through,
+and I actually
+think that humility
+on the part of an
+instructor is good
+because those that think that
+they are entitled, and who else
+could give this lecture?
+Then I worry more.
+I once heard-- I don't
+know if it's still
+true-- that at Caltech,
+the great California
+Institute of Technology
+not far from here,
+that many of the
+faculty are actually
+afraid of the students.
+Not physically
+afraid, but they're
+intellectually afraid because
+the students are so smart.
+And teaching there can
+be downright frightening,
+I've heard.
+But that's great.
+Keeps everybody on their toes.
+And you know, I've been
+corrected in lecture
+before at Stanford
+and elsewhere.
+When my lab was at UC San
+Diego where someone will say,
+hey, wait, last lecture you said
+this and now you said that--
+or on the podcast.
+You know?
+And I think it's that
+moment where you sometimes
+feel that urge to defend and
+you go, oh, you're right,
+and I think it depends
+on how one was trained.
+My graduate advisor was
+wonderful at saying,
+I don't know, all the time.
+And she went to Harvard,
+Radcliffe, UCSF, and Caltech.
+Brilliant woman.
+And had no problem
+saying, I don't know.
+LEX FRIDMAN: I don't
+have that problem either.
+So I usually have two guys
+that somebody speaks up,
+grab them, drag them out of
+the room, never see them again.
+So everybody is
+really supportive.
+You don't understand that the
+amount of love and support
+I get is--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Especially when
+the last few students are there
+and everybody seems to be
+nodding as you're going.
+No, I think that I'd love to
+sit-in on one of your lectures.
+I know very little about AI,
+machine learning, or robotics.
+But--
+LEX FRIDMAN: Have you
+ever talked at MIT?
+Have you ever given lectures?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh, yeah.
+When I went on the job market
+as a faculty member my final two
+choices were between
+MIT Picower--
+I had an on-paper offer.
+Wonderful place.
+Wonderful place to
+do neuroscience.
+And UC San Diego, which is a
+wonderful neuroscience program.
+In the end it made
+sense for me be
+on the West Coast
+for personal reasons,
+but there's some amazing
+neuroscience going on there.
+Goodness.
+And that's always been true
+and is going to continue.
+It's been a long time since
+I've been invited back there.
+Oddly enough when I started
+doing more podcasting--
+and I still run a lab but I
+shrunk my lab considerably
+as I've done more podcasting--
+I've received fewer
+academic lecture
+invites, which makes sense.
+But now they're
+sort of coming back.
+And so when people
+invite now I always
+say, do you want me to talk
+about the ventral thalamus
+and its role in
+anxiety and aggression
+or do you want me to
+talk about the podcast?
+And my big fear is
+I'm going to go back
+to give a lecture about
+the retina or something
+and I'll start off with
+an Athletic Greens read
+or something like
+that just reflexively.
+Just kidding.
+That wouldn't happen.
+But listen, I think
+it's great to continue
+to keep a foot in both places.
+I was so happy to
+hear that you're
+teaching at MIT because
+podcasting is one thing,
+teaching is another, and
+there's overlap there
+in the Venn diagram.
+But listen, the students
+that get to sit-in
+on one of your
+lectures-- and you
+may see me sitting
+there in the audience
+soon when I creep
+into your class.
+LEX FRIDMAN: In sunglasses.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: That's right.
+Wearing a red shirt.
+You won't recognize me.
+Are certainly
+receiving a great gift.
+I've watched your lectures on
+YouTube, even the early ones,
+and listen, I know you to
+be a phenomenal teacher.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah,
+there's something about--
+so I'm also doing--
+I stayed up pretty
+late last night
+working for a
+deadline on a paper.
+One of the things
+that I hope to do
+for hopefully the rest of my
+life is to continue publishing,
+and I think it's really
+important to do that
+even if you continue the podcast
+because you want to be just
+on your own intellectual
+and scientific journey
+as you do podcasting.
+At least for me, and especially
+on the engineering side
+because I want to
+build stuff, and I
+think that keeps
+your ego in check,
+keeps you humble
+because I think if you
+talk too much on a microphone
+you start getting--
+you might lose track
+of the grounding that
+comes from engineering
+and from science
+and the scientific process and
+the criticisms that you get,
+all that kind of stuff.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: And how
+slow and iterative it is.
+We have two papers right now
+that are in the revision stage,
+and it's been a very long road.
+And I was asked this recently
+because I met with my chairman.
+He said, do you want to
+continue to run a lab or are
+you just going to go
+full time on the podcast?
+And Stanford has been very
+supportive, I must say,
+as I know MIT has been of you.
+And I said, oh,
+I absolutely want
+to continue to be involved
+in research and do research.
+And when you start
+talking about these papers
+and we're looking over my--
+this was my yearly review
+and looking back
+I'm like, goodness,
+these papers have been in
+play for a very long time.
+So it's a long road but
+you learn more and more,
+and the more time you
+spend myopically looking
+at a bunch of data the more you
+learn and the more you think.
+I totally agree.
+Talking to these
+devices for podcasts
+is wonderful because it's fun.
+It relieves a certain itch that
+we both have and hopefully it
+lands some important information
+out there for people,
+but doing research is the--
+I guess if you know, you know.
+There's the unpeeling
+of the onion,
+knowing that there could
+be something there.
+There's just nothing like it.
+LEX FRIDMAN: I mean, you do--
+especially with the pandemic.
+And for me, both
+Twitter and the podcast
+have made me much more
+impatient about the slowness
+of the review process because--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Twitter will do that.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Twitter will.
+But even with podcast
+you have a cool--
+you'll find something cool
+and then you have ideas
+and you'll just say them and
+they'll be out pretty quickly.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Then we do a
+post right now about something
+that we both found interesting
+and it's out in the world.
+Yep.
+LEX FRIDMAN: And
+you can write up
+something, like there
+is a culture in computer
+science of posting stuff
+on arXiv and preprints
+that don't get annual review,
+and sometimes they don't even
+go through the review process
+ever because people just
+start using them if it's code.
+And it's like, what's
+the point of this?
+It works.
+It's self evident that it works
+because people are using it,
+and that I think applies
+more to engineering fields
+because it's an actual
+tool that works.
+It doesn't matter if-- you don't
+have to scientifically prove
+that it works.
+It works because it's
+using for a lot of people.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, sorry
+to interrupt, but I just--
+for point of reference,
+the famous paper
+describing the
+double helix which
+earned Watson and
+Crick the Nobel Prize
+and should have earned Rosalind
+Franklin Nobel Prize too,
+of course, but they got it for
+the structure of DNA of course.
+That paper was never
+reviewed at Nature.
+They published it because its
+importance was self evident,
+or whatever.
+They decided--
+LEX FRIDMAN: So the editors.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: It was that
+purely editorial decision,
+I believe.
+I mean, that's what I
+was told by someone who's
+currently an editor at Nature.
+If that turns out
+to not be correct
+someone will tell us in
+the comments for sure.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Well, I think--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: That's
+pretty interesting, right?
+LEX FRIDMAN: That's
+really interested.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Perhaps the
+most significant discovery
+in biology and
+bioengineering which
+was leading to
+bioengineering as well,
+of course, of the last
+century was not peer reviewed.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah, but--
+so Eric Weinstein,
+but many others
+have talked about
+this, which is, I mean,
+I don't think people understand
+how poor the peer review
+process is.
+Just the amount of--
+because you think peer
+review it means all the
+best peers get together
+and they review your
+stuff, but it's unpaid work
+and it's usually a
+small number of people.
+And they have a very
+select perspective
+so they might not be the
+best person, especially
+if it's super novel work.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: And it's
+who has time to do it.
+I'm on a bunch of
+editorial boards still.
+Why, I don't know, but I
+enjoy the peer review process
+and sending papers out.
+Oftentimes the best
+scientists are very busy
+and don't have time to review.
+And oftentimes the
+more premiere journals
+will select from a kind
+of a unique kit of very
+good scientists who are
+very close to the work,
+sometimes the people are
+very far from the work.
+It really depends.
+LEX FRIDMAN: And both
+have negatives, right?
+If you're very close
+to the work there's
+jealousy, and all those
+basic human things.
+Very far from the
+work you might not
+appreciate the
+nuanced contribution,
+all that kind of stuff.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: And
+there's psychology.
+Sorry to interrupt again, but
+a good friend of mine who's
+extremely successful
+neuroscientist,
+Howard Hughes
+investigator, et cetera,
+always told me that they--
+I won't even say whether
+or not who they are.
+They select their
+reviewers on the basis
+of who has been publishing
+very well recently because they
+assume that that
+person is going to be
+more benevolent because
+they have been doing
+well so that the love expands.
+LEX FRIDMAN: That's a good
+point to that, actually.
+But the idea is that
+editors might actually
+be the best reviewers, so that
+was the traditional-- that's
+the thing I wanted to mention
+that Eric Weinstein talks
+about, that back several
+decades ago editors had
+much more power.
+And there is something to be
+made for that because editors
+are the ones who are responsible
+for crafting the journal.
+They really are
+invested in this,
+and they're also
+often experts, right?
+It makes sense for
+an editor to have
+a bit of power in this case.
+Usually if an idea is truly
+novel you could see it,
+And so it makes
+sense for an editor
+to have more power
+in that regard.
+Of course for me,
+I think peer review
+should be done the
+way tweets are done,
+which is crowdsourced
+or Amazon reviews.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Let
+the crowd decide.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Let
+the crowd decide,
+and let the crowd add depth
+and breadth and context
+for the contribution.
+So if the paper overstates
+the degree of contribution,
+the crowd will
+check you on that.
+If there's not enough support
+or the conclusions are not
+supported by the evidence, the
+crowd will check you on that.
+There could be, of course,
+political bickering
+that enters the
+picture, especially
+on very controversial
+topics, but I
+think I trust the
+intelligence of human beings
+to figure that out.
+And I think most of us
+are trying to figure
+this whole process out.
+I just wish it was
+happening much faster
+because on the important
+topics, the review
+cycle could be faster.
+And we learned
+that through COVID
+that Twitter was
+actually pretty effective
+at doing science communication.
+It was really interesting.
+Some of the best
+scientists took to Twitter
+to communicate their own
+work and other people's work,
+and always putting
+into the caveats
+that it's not peer reviewed and
+so on, but it's all out there
+and the data just moves so fast.
+And if you want
+stuff to move fast,
+Twitter is the best medium
+of communication for that.
+It's cool to see.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'd like
+to take a brief break
+and thank our sponsor,
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+I'm now on Twitter
+more regularly,
+and initially it
+was just Instagram.
+And I remember you and I used to
+have these over dinner or drink
+conversations where I'd say,
+I don't understand Twitter.
+And you'd say, I don't
+understand Instagram.
+And of course, we
+understand how it worked
+and how to work each
+respective platform,
+but I think we were both
+trying to figure out
+what is driving the psychology
+of these different venues
+because they are quite distinct
+psychologies for whatever
+reason.
+I think I'm finally starting
+to understand Twitter and enjoy
+it a little bit.
+Initially I wasn't
+prepared for the level
+of reflexive scrutiny.
+It sounds a little
+bit oxymoronic,
+but that people pick
+up on one small thing
+and then drive it
+down that trajectory.
+It didn't seem to be happening
+quite as much on Instagram,
+but I love your tweets.
+I do have a question
+about your Twitter account
+and how you-- do you have sort
+of internal filters of what
+you'll put up and won't put up?
+Because sometimes you'll
+put up things that
+are about life and reflections.
+Other times you'll put up
+things like what you're
+excited about in
+AI, or of course,
+point to various podcasts
+including your own,
+but others as well.
+How do you approach
+social media?
+Not in how do you
+regulate your behavior
+on there in terms of how
+much time, et cetera.
+I know you've talked
+about that before.
+But you know, what's your
+mindset around social media
+when you go on there to either
+post or forage or respond
+to information?
+LEX FRIDMAN: I think
+I try to add some--
+not the sound cliche, but some
+love out there into the world
+into, as OJ Simpson
+calls it, Twitter world.
+I think there is this viral
+negativity that can take hold,
+and I try to find the right
+language to add good vibes out
+there.
+And it's actually
+really, really tricky
+because there's something about
+positivity that sounds fake.
+I can't quite put
+my finger on it,
+but whenever I talk about
+love and positive and almost
+childlike in my curiosity
+and positivity, people
+start to think, surely he
+has skeletons in the closet.
+There's dead bodies
+in his basement.
+This must be a fake--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+No, it's the attic.
+LEX FRIDMAN: It's the attic?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: The attic.
+LEX FRIDMAN: I keep
+mine in the basement.
+That's the details.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I was
+referring to your attic.
+I don't have an attic or a
+basement, nor dead bodies.
+I just want to be very clear.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah.
+I do have an attic and actually
+I haven't been up there.
+Maybe there is bodies up there.
+But yes, I prefer the basement.
+It's colder down there.
+I like it.
+No, but there's an assumption
+that this is not genuine
+or it's disingenuous
+in some kind of way.
+And so I try to find the
+right language for that kind
+of stuff, how to be positive.
+Some of it I was really inspired
+by Elon's approach to Twitter.
+Not all of it, but
+when he just is silly.
+I found that silliness--
+I think it's Hermann Hesse
+said something to paraphrase--
+one of my favorite writers--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, same.
+LEX FRIDMAN: I
+think in Steppenwolf
+said, learn what is
+to be taken seriously
+and laugh at the rest.
+I think I try to be
+silly, laugh at myself,
+laugh at the absurdity
+of life, and then in part
+when I'm serious, try to
+just be positive, just
+to see a positive perspective.
+And also, as you said,
+people pick out certain words
+and so on and they
+attack each other,
+attack me over certain usage
+of words in a particular tweet.
+I think the thing I try to do is
+think positively towards them,
+like do not escalate.
+So whenever somebody's
+criticizing me and so on,
+I just smile.
+If there's a lesson to
+be learned, I learn it
+and then I just send
+good vibes their way.
+Don't respond, and
+just hopefully,
+through karma and through the
+ripple effect of positivity,
+have an impact on them and
+the rest of the Twitter.
+And what you find
+is that builds--
+your actions create
+the community.
+So how I behave gets me
+surrounded by certain people.
+But lately, especially Ukraine
+is one topic like this,
+I also thought
+about talking to--
+somebody who reached out
+to me is Andrew Tate,
+who's extremely controversial.
+From the perspective of a lot
+of people is a misogynist.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+I've heard his name
+and I know that there's a lot
+of controversy around him.
+Maybe you could familiarize me.
+I've been pretty nose
+down in podcast prep
+and I tried to do this
+vacation thing for about three,
+four weeks.
+LEX FRIDMAN: I've
+heard about that.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah.
+And it sort of worked.
+I did get some time in
+the Colorado wilderness
+by myself, which was great.
+I did get some downtime.
+But in any event, it mainly
+consisted of reading and--
+LEX FRIDMAN: And nature?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Reading
+and nature, sauna, ice bath,
+working out, good food,
+a little extra sleep,
+these kinds of things I
+really felt I needed it.
+But I am pretty
+naive when it comes
+to the kind of
+current controversies
+but I've heard his
+name, and I think
+he's been deplatformed
+on a couple of platforms.
+Do I have that right?
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah, he's
+been-- so I should also
+admit that while I might
+know more than you,
+it's not by much.
+So it's like a
+five-year-old talking
+to a four-year-old right now.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Is he
+an athlete, a podcaster?
+LEX FRIDMAN: So basic summary,
+he used to be a fighter,
+a kickboxer, I believe.
+Was pretty successful.
+And then during
+that and after that
+I think he was on
+a reality show,
+and he had all these programs
+that are basically pickup
+artist advice.
+He has this community of
+people where he gives advice
+on how to pick up women, how to
+be successful in relationships,
+how to make a lot of
+money, and it costs money
+to enter those programs.
+So a lot of the criticism
+that he gets is kind of--
+it's like a pyramid scheme
+where you convince people
+to join so that they
+can make more money
+and then they convince others
+to join, and that kind of stuff.
+But that's not why I'm
+interested in talking to him.
+I'm interested because
+one of the guests--
+maybe I should mention who, but
+one of the female guests I had,
+really a big scientist, said
+that her two kids that are 13
+and 12 really look up
+to Andrew to entertain--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Is it male
+children, female children?
+LEX FRIDMAN: Male.
+And I hear this
+time and time again.
+So he is somebody that a lot of
+teens, young teens, look up to.
+So I haven't done
+serious research.
+I usually try to avoid doing
+research until I agree to talk
+and then I go deep.
+But there is an
+aspect to the way
+he talks about women that, while
+I understand and I understand
+certain dynamics in
+relationships work for people
+and he's one such
+person, but I think
+him being really disrespectful
+towards women is not what I--
+it's not how I see what
+it means to be a good man.
+So the conversation I
+want to have with him
+is about masculinity.
+What does masculinity
+mean in the 21st century?
+And so when I think
+about that kind of stuff,
+and because we're
+talking about Twitter,
+it's like going into a war zone.
+I'm a happy go
+lucky person, but--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: You're
+like, send me to Ukraine,
+but I don't want to have
+this conversation on Twitter.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Because
+it's a really, really,
+really tricky one because
+also, as you know,
+when you do a podcast,
+everybody wants you to win.
+It's everything
+you do is positive.
+Maybe you'll say the wrong
+thing as inaccurate thing
+and you can correct yourself.
+With Andrew Tate, with Donald
+Trump, with folks like this,
+you have to--
+I mean, it's a
+professional boxing.
+I think you have
+to push the person.
+You have to be really eloquent.
+You have to be also empathetic
+because you can't just
+do what journalists
+do, which is talk down
+to the person the entire time.
+That's easy.
+The hard thing is to
+empathize with the person,
+to understand them, to
+steel man their case,
+but also to make your own case.
+So in that case about what
+it means to be a man, to me
+a strong man is somebody
+who is respectful to women.
+Not out of weakness, not out
+of social justice warrior
+signaling, and all that kind
+of stuff, but out of that's
+what a strong man does.
+They don't need to be
+disrespectful to prove
+their position in life.
+He is often-- now, a lot of
+people say it's a character.
+He's being misogynistic.
+He's being a misogynist as a
+kind of-- for entertainment
+purposes.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+So like an avatar.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah.
+But to me, that avatar has a
+lot of influence on young folks
+so the character has impact.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Oh, I don't think
+you can separate the
+avatar and the person
+in terms of the
+impact, as you said.
+In fact, there are
+a number of accounts
+on Twitter and Instagram and
+elsewhere which people have
+only revealed their first
+names or they give themself
+another name or they're
+using a cartoon image.
+And part of that, I
+believe, in at least
+from some of these individuals
+who actually know who they are,
+I understand as an attempt to
+maintain their privacy, which
+is important to many people.
+And in some cases so that
+they can be more inflammatory
+and then just pop up
+elsewhere as something
+else without anyone knowing
+that it's the same person.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Some of--
+this is the dark stuff.
+I've been reading a lot about
+Ukraine and Nazi Germany,
+so the '30s and
+the '40s and so on,
+and you get to see how
+much the absurdity turns
+to evil quickly.
+One of the things I worry--
+one of the things
+I really don't like
+to see on Twitter
+and the internet
+is how many statements
+end with LOL.
+It's like you think just because
+something is kind of funny
+or is funny or is
+legitimately funny,
+it also doesn't have a
+deep effect on society.
+So that's such a
+difficult gray area
+because some of the best
+comedy is dark and mean,
+but it reveals some important
+truth that we need to consider.
+But sometimes comedy
+is just covering up
+for destructive
+ideology, and you
+have to know the line
+between those two.
+Hitler was seen as a joke in
+the late '20s and the '30s
+in Nazi Germany until the
+joke became very serious.
+You have to be careful
+to know the difference
+between the joke and the
+reality and do all that.
+I mean, in a conversation--
+I'm just such a big
+believer in conversation
+to be able to reveal something
+through conversation,
+but I don't know.
+One of the big--
+you and I challenge
+ourselves all the time.
+I don't know if I
+have what it takes
+to have a good, empathetic,
+but adversarial conversation.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I need to learn
+more about this Tate person,
+or not learn about them.
+Yeah.
+It sounds like maybe
+it's something to skip.
+I don't know because, again, I'm
+not familiar with the content.
+But I was going to
+ask you whether or not
+you've seeked out
+or whether or not
+you would ever consider
+having Donald Trump as a guest
+on your podcast.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah, I've
+talked to Joe a lot about this
+and I really believe I can have
+a good conversation with Donald
+Trump, but I haven't seen many
+good conversations with him.
+So part of me thinks--
+part of me believes
+it's possible,
+but he often effectively
+runs over the interviewer.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: You could
+sit him down, give him
+an element in Athletic Greens.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Just relax.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+That nice, cool, air
+conditioned black
+curtain studio you've got
+and a different
+side might come out.
+Context is powerful.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Well, Joe's
+really good at this,
+which is relaxing the person.
+Like here, have a drink.
+Smoke a joint, or
+whatever it is.
+But this energy of
+just, let's relax,
+and there's laughter and so on.
+I don't think-- as
+people know, I'm just
+not good at that kind of stuff.
+So I think the way I could have
+a good conversation with him
+is to really understand
+his worldview,
+be able to steel
+man his worldview
+and those that support him.
+Which is, I'm sorry
+to say for people
+who seem to hate Donald Trump,
+is a very large percentage
+of the country.
+And so you have to really
+empathize with those people.
+You have to empathize with
+Donald Trump, the human being,
+and from that perspective,
+ask him hard questions.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+So who do you think
+is the counterpoint
+if you're going
+to seek balance in your guests.
+If you're going
+to have Trump on,
+then you have to have who on?
+LEX FRIDMAN: Well,
+that's interesting.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Anthony Fauci seems
+to be strongly associated
+with counter values, at least
+in the eye of the public.
+I think he's retiring soon, but.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah,
+he's retiring.
+So that's really
+interesting, Anthony Fauci.
+Yeah, definitely, but I don't
+think he's a counterbalance.
+He's a complicated,
+fascinating figure
+who seems to have attracted
+a lot of hate and distrust,
+but also--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: And
+love from some people.
+LEX FRIDMAN: And love.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: And
+love from some people.
+I mean, I know people, not
+even necessarily scientists,
+who have pro-Fauci shirts.
+I've seen people with anti-Fauci
+shirts, excuse me, certainly,
+but who adore him.
+There are people who adore
+him in the same way there
+are people that adore Trump.
+It's so interesting that
+one species of animal
+you get such divergent
+neural circuitry.
+LEX FRIDMAN: It
+almost feels like it's
+by design and every single topic
+we find tension and division is
+fascinating to watch.
+I mean, I got to really witness
+it from zero to a hundred
+in Ukraine, where there is
+not huge significant division.
+There was in certain parts of
+Ukraine, but across Europe,
+across the world there
+was not that much division
+between Russia and Ukraine,
+and it was just born
+overnight, this intense hatred.
+You see the same kind of stuff
+with Fauci over the pandemic.
+At first we were all
+huddled in uncertainty.
+There is a togetherness
+with the pandemic.
+Of course, there
+is more difficult
+because you're isolated.
+But then you start
+to figure out--
+probably the politicians and
+the media try to figure out,
+how can I take a side
+here and how can I
+now start reporting on
+this side or that side
+and say how the
+other side is wrong?
+And so I think Anthony Fauci
+is a part of just being used
+as a scapegoat
+for certain things
+as part of that kind of
+narrative of division.
+But I think-- so Trump is
+a singular figure that,
+to me, represents something
+important in American history.
+I'm not sure what
+that is, but I think
+you have to think-- you
+put on your historian hat,
+go forward in time,
+and think back.
+How will he be remembered 20,
+30, 40, 50 years from now?
+Who is the opposite of that?
+You have to--
+I would really have
+to think about that
+because Trump was so singular.
+I think AOC is an
+interesting one,
+but she's so young it's
+unclear to know how--
+if she represents a legitimately
+large scale movement or not.
+Bernie Sanders is an
+interesting option,
+but I wish he would be
+30, 40 years younger.
+The young Bernie
+would be a good--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: There are
+scientists working on that.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah, I think so.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Not
+him specifically, but--
+LEX FRIDMAN: Well, yeah.
+Maybe him.
+We never know.
+There is a big conspiracy
+theory that Putin is--
+that that's a body double.
+It's no longer him.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Bernie is Putin?
+LEX FRIDMAN: No, no, no, no.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'm having a
+hard time merging that image.
+LEX FRIDMAN: The conspiracy
+theory is-- no, no, no.
+That the Putin we see on
+camera today is a body double.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well,
+one thing that in science,
+and in particular,
+in anatomy, there's
+a classification scheme for
+different types of anatomists,
+which they either say you're
+a lumper or a splitter.
+Some people like to call a
+whole structure something,
+not necessarily
+just for simplicity
+but for a lot of reasons.
+And then other people like
+to microdivide the nucleus
+into multiple names.
+And of course, people used to
+be able to name different brain
+structures after themselves.
+So that would be the nucleus of
+Lex and the Huberman vesiculus
+or whatever.
+Less of that nowadays.
+And by the way, those structures
+don't actually exist just yet.
+We haven't defined those yet.
+I was making those names up.
+But what's interesting is it
+seems like in the last five
+years, there's been
+a lot of trend--
+there's been a trend, excuse
+me, toward a requirement
+for lumping.
+You can't say-- it seems that
+it's not allowed, if you will,
+to say, hey, yeah, you know--
+and here I'm not stating my--
+I will never reveal
+my preferences
+about pandemic related things
+for hopefully obvious reasons.
+Some people will say
+vaccines, yes, but masks, no.
+Or vaccines and masks,
+yes, but let people work.
+And other people will say,
+no, everyone stay home.
+And then other people will
+say, no, no vaccines, no masks.
+Let everybody work.
+No one was saying no vaccines,
+no masks, and stay home,
+I don't think.
+So there's this sort
+of lumping, right?
+The boundaries around
+ideology really
+did start to defy science.
+I mean, it wasn't scientific.
+It was one part science-ish
+at times and sometimes
+really hardcore science.
+Other times it was
+politics, economics.
+I mean, we really
+saw the confluence
+of all these different
+domains of society
+that use very different
+criteria to evaluate the world.
+I mean, as a
+scientist, I remember
+when the vaccines
+first came out and I
+asked somebody, one
+of the early concerns
+I had that was actually
+satisfied for me was,
+how does this thing turn off?
+If you start generating
+mRNA, how does it actually
+get turned off?
+So I asked a friend, they
+know a lot about RNA biology.
+And I said, you know,
+how does it turn off?
+They explained it to me and
+I was like, OK, makes sense.
+I asked some other questions.
+But most people aren't
+going to think about it
+at that level of
+detail necessarily,
+but it did seem
+that there was just
+kind of amorphous
+blobs of ideology
+that they grabbed on
+to things and then
+there was this need for
+a chasm between them.
+It was almost felt like it
+became illegal, in some ways,
+to want two of the things from
+that menu and one of the things
+from that menu.
+I really felt like I
+was being constrained
+by a kind of like
+Bento box model
+where I didn't get to define
+what was in the Bento box.
+I could either have Bento
+box A or Bento box Z,
+but nothing in between.
+LEX FRIDMAN: And I
+think on that topic
+and I think a lot of
+topics, most people
+are in the middle with
+humility, uncertainty,
+and they're just kind of
+trying to figure it out.
+And I think there is just
+the extremes defining
+the nature of this division.
+So I think it's the
+role of a lot of us
+in our individual
+lives, and also
+if you have a
+platform of any kind,
+I think you have to try to walk
+in the middle with the empathy
+and humility.
+And that's actually what science
+is about is the humility.
+I'm still thinking about
+who's the opposite of Trump.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well,
+maybe there is none.
+I mean, maybe Fauci is
+orthogonal to Trump.
+I mean, not everything
+has an opposite.
+I mean, maybe he's
+an n of 1 maybe
+he's in the minority
+of one because he
+was an outsider from Washington
+who then made it there.
+LEX FRIDMAN: But also I wonder--
+you have to pick your battles
+because every battle you fight
+you should take very seriously.
+And just the amount
+of hate I get,
+I got, and I still get
+for having sat down
+with the Pfizer CEO, that was
+a very valuable lesson for me.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh, that
+one got you a lot of heat?
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah, it
+still does because--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Because you
+had some pretty controversial
+guests on from time to time.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah, that one--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Is he
+still the Pfizer CEO?
+LEX FRIDMAN: I believe so.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: CEOs
+turn over like crazy.
+This is the thing
+I didn't realize.
+In science if somebody moves
+institutions it's a big deal.
+Most people don't have more
+than two moves in their career,
+maybe.
+But they often move to the
+next building is a big deal.
+But it in biotech--
+it's like have a former
+colleague of mine
+from San Diego and
+he's been a CEO here,
+then he's a CEO there.
+He went back to a company
+he was a CEO before.
+He's probably back
+at the university
+we worked at for all I know.
+It's amazing how much
+moving around there.
+It is a very
+itinerant profession.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah,
+I think they're--
+in certain companies, I guess
+in biotech would be the case,
+the CEO is more of like a
+manager type so you can--
+jumping around benefits
+your experience
+so you become better and
+better being a manager.
+There's some leader
+revolutionary CEOs
+that stick around for
+longer because they're
+so critical to
+pivoting a company,
+like the Microsoft
+CEO currently.
+Sundar Pichai is
+somebody like that.
+Obviously, Elon Musk is
+somebody like that that
+is part of pivoting a company
+into new domains constantly,
+but yeah.
+In biotech there's a machine.
+In the eyes of a lot of people,
+big pharma is like big tobacco.
+It's the epitome of everything
+that is wrong with capitalism.
+It's evil, right?
+And so I showed up
+in the conversation
+where I thought with
+a pretty open mind
+and really asked what I
+thought were difficult
+questions of him.
+I don't think he's ever sat
+down to a grilling of that kind.
+In fact, I'm pretty sure
+they cut the interview short
+because of that, and
+I thought literally it
+was hot in the room
+and we're sweating
+and I was asking
+tough questions.
+For somebody that half the
+country or a large percent
+of the country believes he's
+alleviated a lot of-- he
+helped, through the financial
+resources that Pfizer has,
+helped alleviate a lot of
+suffering in the world.
+And so I thought for
+somebody like that,
+I was asking pretty
+hard questions.
+Boy, did I get to
+hear from the side--
+usually one of the sides is
+more intense in their anger.
+So there are certain
+political topics--
+like with Andrew
+Tate, for example,
+I would hear from a very--
+it would probably be
+the left, far left,
+that would write very angrily.
+And so that's a group
+you'll hear from.
+The Pfizer CEO, I didn't
+get almost any messages
+from people saying, why
+did you go so hard on him?
+He's an incredible human,
+incredible leader and CEO
+of a company that helped
+us with the vaccine
+that nobody thought would be
+possible to develop so quickly.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: You did not
+get letters of that sort?
+LEX FRIDMAN: I did not.
+I mean, here and there,
+but the sea of people
+that said everything
+from me being
+weak that I wasn't able
+to call out this person,
+how do you sit down, how do
+you platform this evil person,
+how do you make him look
+human, all that kind of stuff.
+And you have to deal with that.
+You have to-- of
+course, it's great.
+It's great because I have to
+do some soul searching, which
+is like, did I?
+You have to ask
+some hard questions.
+I love criticism like that.
+You get to--
+I had some low points.
+There's definitely some despair
+and you start to wonder,
+was I too weak?
+Should I have talked to him?
+What is true?
+And you sit there alone
+and just marinate in that.
+Hopefully over time
+that makes you better,
+but I still don't know what the
+right answer with that one is.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, I feel
+that money plays a role here.
+When people think
+big pharma, they
+think billions of dollars--
+maybe even trillions
+of dollars, really.
+And certainly people who make a
+lot of money get scrutiny that
+others don't.
+Part of it is that they are
+often not always visible,
+but I think that there is
+a natural and reflexive--
+and I'm not justifying it.
+I certainly don't
+feel this because I
+know some people who
+are very wealthy,
+some people who are very poor.
+I can't say it scales
+with happiness at all.
+People are always
+shocked to hear that,
+but that's what I've observed
+in very wealthy people.
+But that people who
+have a lot of money
+are often held to a
+different standard
+because people resent
+that, some people resent
+that, and maybe there are
+other reasons as well.
+I mean, among people
+who are very wealthy,
+oftentimes the wish
+is for status, right?
+Not money.
+You get a bunch of
+billionaires in a room,
+and unless one of
+them is Elon, who
+also has immense status
+for his accomplishments,
+typically if you put a
+Nobel Prize winner in a room
+with a bunch of
+billionaires they're
+all talking to that person.
+Right?
+And there are many very
+interesting billionaires.
+But status is something that is
+often but not always associated
+with money, but is a much
+rarer form of uniqueness
+out there, a
+positive uniqueness--
+if one considers status positive
+because there's a downside to.
+So I wonder whether or not the
+Pfizer CEO caught extra heat
+because people
+assume, and I probably
+assume also, that his
+salary is quite immense.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah.
+So because I have a
+lot of data on this.
+I can answer it.
+It's a very good hypothesis.
+Let's test that scientifically.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: He's about to
+tell me it's a great hypothesis
+but it's wrong.
+I know the smirk.
+I know the smirk.
+LEX FRIDMAN: I honestly
+think it's wrong.
+That effect is there
+for a lot of people,
+but I think the distrust
+is not towards the CEO.
+The distrust is
+towards the company.
+One of the really
+difficult soul searching I
+had to do, which is just having
+to interact with Pfizer folks
+at every level, from
+junior to the CEO,
+they're all really nice people.
+They have a mission.
+They talk about trying
+to really help people
+because that's the
+best way to make
+money is to come
+up with medicine
+that helps a lot of people.
+The mission is clear.
+They're all good people, a lot
+of really brilliant people,
+PhDs.
+So you can have a system
+where all the people are good,
+including the CEO.
+And by good, I mean
+people that really
+are trying to do everything.
+They dedicate their
+whole life to do good.
+And yet, you have to think
+that that system can deviate
+from a path that does good
+because you start to deceive
+yourself of what is good,
+you turn it into a game
+where money does come into
+play from a company perspective
+where you convince yourself
+the more money you make,
+the more good you'll
+be able to do.
+And then you start to focus
+more and more and more
+on making more money, and then
+you can really deviate and lose
+track of what is actually good.
+I'm not saying necessarily
+Pfizer does that,
+but I think companies
+could do that.
+You can apply that criticism
+to social media companies,
+to big pharma companies.
+One of the big lessons for me--
+I don't know what the answer
+is, but that all the people
+inside the company
+can be good, people
+you would want to
+hang out with, people
+you would want to work with,
+but as a company is doing evil.
+That's a possibility.
+So the distrust I don't think
+is towards the billionaire
+individual, which I do
+see a lot of in this case.
+I think it's Wall
+Street distrust,
+that the machinery of this
+particular organization
+has gone off track.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's the
+generalization of hate again.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah.
+And then good luck
+figuring out what is true.
+This is the tough stuff.
+But I should say
+the individuals--
+individual scientists
+at the NIH and Pfizer
+are just incredible people.
+They're really brilliant people.
+I never trust the administration
+or the business people--
+no offense, business people.
+But the scientists
+are always good.
+They have the right
+motivator in life.
+But again, they can
+have blinders on.
+Too focused on the science.
+Nazi Germany has a
+history of people
+just too focused on
+the science and then
+the politicians use the
+scientists to achieve
+whatever end they want.
+But if you just look narrowly
+at the journey of a scientist,
+it's a beautiful one
+because they're ultimately
+in it for the
+curiosity, the moment
+of discovery versus money.
+I mean, prestige probably does
+come into play later in life,
+but especially young scientists.
+They're after the--
+it's like they're
+pulling at the
+threat of curiosity
+to try to discover
+something big.
+They get excited by
+that kind of stuff,
+and it's beautiful to see.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: It
+is beautiful see.
+I have a former
+graduate student,
+now a postdoc at
+Caltech, and I don't even
+know she had a cell phone.
+She would come in the lab, put
+her cell phone into the desk,
+and she was
+tremendously productive.
+But that wasn't why
+I brought it up.
+She was productive as a side
+effect of just being absolutely
+committed and
+obsessed to discover
+the answers to the
+questions she was
+asking as best she could, and
+it was-- you could feel it.
+You could just feel the
+intensity, and just incredibly
+low activation energy.
+If there was an experiment to
+do she would just go do it.
+You're teaching at MIT.
+You are obviously
+traveling the world,
+you're right on the podcast
+a lot of coverage of chess
+recently, which is interesting.
+I don't play chess but--
+LEX FRIDMAN: Oh, I have
+some scientific questions
+to you about that.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh, OK.
+Sure.
+Let's get to those for sure.
+And then--
+LEX FRIDMAN: You're
+not going to like it.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh, no.
+OK.
+And then also some very--
+do I have to spell
+Massachusetts again?
+LEX FRIDMAN: Of course.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Also you still seem
+to have a proclivity for finding
+guests that are controversial,
+right?
+You're thinking about Tate,
+we're talking about Trump,
+we're talking about the Pfizer
+CEO, we're talking about Fauci.
+These are intense people.
+And so what we're
+getting folks is a--
+we're not doing
+neuroimaging here
+in the traditional sense of
+putting someone into a scanner.
+What we're doing
+here is we're using,
+as the great Karl Deisseroth,
+who was on your podcast--
+LEX FRIDMAN: Thank you for that.
+Thank you for connecting us.
+He's an incredible person.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: He's an
+incredible psychiatrist,
+bioengineer, and human
+being and writer,
+and your conversation
+with him was phenomenal.
+I listened to it twice.
+I actually have taken notes.
+We talk about it
+in this household.
+We really do.
+His description of
+love is not to be
+missed, I'll just
+leave it at that,
+because if I try and say
+it I won't capture it well.
+But we're getting
+a language based
+map of at least a portion
+of Lex Fridman's brain here.
+So what else is going on
+these days in that brain
+as it relates to robotics, AI?
+Our last conversation
+was a lot about robots
+and the potential for
+robot-human interaction.
+Even what is a robot, et cetera.
+Are you still working on robots
+or focused on robots, and where
+is science showing up in your
+life besides the things we've
+already talked about?
+LEX FRIDMAN: So I
+think the last time
+we talked was before Ukraine.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yes.
+You were just about to leave.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yes.
+I mean--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: So
+that's why I went on.
+I was like, you
+know, this might be
+the last-- you said you
+wanted to come out here
+before or after.
+I was like, come
+out there before.
+I want to see you before you go.
+But here you are in the flesh.
+LEX FRIDMAN: So a lot of--
+just a lot of my mind has
+been occupied, obviously,
+with that part of the world.
+But most of the
+difficult struggles
+that I'm still going through
+is that I haven't launched
+the company that
+I want to launch
+and the company
+has to do with AI.
+I mean, it's maybe a
+longer conversation,
+but the ultimate dream is
+to put robots in every home.
+But short term I see
+there a possibility
+of launching a
+social media company,
+and it's a nontrivial
+explanation why that
+leads to robots in the home.
+But it's basically
+the algorithms
+that fuel effective
+social robotics, so
+robots that you can form
+a deep connection with.
+And so I've been really-- yeah,
+I've been building prototypes
+but struggling that
+I don't have maybe,
+if I were to be critical,
+the guts to launch a company.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Or the time.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Well,
+it's combined.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I think
+you've got the guts.
+I mean, it's clear if you'll
+do an interview with the Pfizer
+CEO and you're considering
+putting this Tate
+fellow on your podcast and
+you've gone to the Ukraine
+that you have the guts.
+It means not doing quite
+a lot of other things.
+LEX FRIDMAN: That's what I mean.
+It does take-- the thing
+is, as many people know,
+when you fill your
+day and you're busy,
+that busyness becomes an excuse
+that you use against doing
+the things that scare you.
+A lot of people use
+family in this way.
+You know, my wife,
+my kids, I can't.
+When in reality some of the most
+successful people have a wife
+and have kids and have
+families and they still do it.
+And so a lot of times we can
+fill the day with busy work,
+with--
+yeah, of course, I have podcasts
+and all this kind of stuff.
+And they make me happy and
+they're all-- they're wonderful
+and there's research,
+there's teaching, and so on.
+But all of that can just serve
+as an excuse from the thing
+that my heart says is
+the right thing to do,
+and that's why I don't
+have the guts, the guts
+to say no to
+basically everything
+and then to focus all out.
+Because part of it is
+I'm unlikely to fail
+at anything in my life
+currently because I've already
+found a comfortable place.
+With a startup it's
+mostly going to be--
+most likely going to
+be a failure, if not
+an embarrassing failure.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well,
+the machine learning data
+that I'm aware of--
+I don't know a lot
+about machine learning,
+but within the realm
+of neuroscience,
+say that a failure
+rate of about 15%
+is optimal for
+neuroplasticity and growth.
+Whether or not that translates
+to all kinds of practices
+isn't clear, but getting
+trials right 85% of the time
+seems to be optimal
+for language learning,
+seems to be optimal
+for mathematics,
+and it seems to be optimal
+for physical pursuits
+on average, right?
+I'm sure I'm going--
+you have more machine
+learning geeks
+that listen to your podcast
+than listen to this podcast,
+but it doesn't mean you have
+to fail on 15% of your weight
+sets, folks.
+I mean, it could be 16%.
+No, I'm just kidding.
+It's not exact, but it's a
+pretty good rule of thumb.
+LEX FRIDMAN: I think a
+lot of startup founders
+would literally murder
+for 85% chance of success.
+I think given all the
+opportunities I have,
+the skill set, the funding,
+all that kind of stuff,
+my chances are relatively
+high for success.
+But what relatively high
+means in the startup world
+is still far, far below 85.
+You're talking about
+single digit percentages.
+Most startups fail.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well,
+I think it means--
+the decision to focus on the
+company and not on other things
+means the decision to close
+the hatch on dopamine retrieval
+from all these other things that
+are very predictable sources
+of dopamine.
+Not that everything is
+dopamine, but dopamine
+is, I think, the primary
+chemical driver of motivation.
+If you know that you can get
+some degree of satisfaction
+from scrolling social media
+or from that particular cup
+of coffee, that's what
+you're going to do.
+That's what you're going to
+consume unless you somehow
+invert the algorithm
+and you say,
+it's actually my
+denial of myself
+drinking that coffee that's
+going to be the dopamine.
+Right?
+LEX FRIDMAN: Oh, interesting.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: And
+that's the beauty
+of having a forebrain is that
+you can make those decisions.
+This is the essence,
+I do believe,
+of what we see of David Goggins.
+There's much more there.
+There's a person that none
+of us know and only he knows,
+of course.
+But the idea that the pain
+is the source of dopamine.
+The limbic friction, as I
+sometimes like to call it,
+is the source of dopamine.
+That runs counter to how
+most nervous systems work,
+but it's decision based, right?
+It's not because his
+musculature is a certain way
+or he had CRISPR or something.
+It's because he decides that.
+And I think that's
+amazing, but what
+it means in terms of
+starting a company
+and changing priorities is
+a closing the hatch on all
+or many of the current
+sources of dopamine
+so that you can derive
+dopamine from the failures
+within this narrow
+context, and there's
+a very reductionist view
+and neurocentric view
+of what we're talking about.
+But I think about this a lot.
+I mean, the decision to choose
+one relationship versus another
+is a decision to close down
+other opportunities, right?
+So I think that the
+decision to order one thing
+off the menu versus others
+is the decision to close down
+those other hatches.
+So I think that you
+absolutely can do it.
+It's just a question of,
+can you flip the algorithm?
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah.
+Remap the source of
+dopamine to something else.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Right.
+And maybe go out there
+not to succeed but make
+the-- the journey is the
+destination type thing,
+but when you're financially
+vested in your time--
+and as far as I
+know, we only get
+one life, at least
+on this planet
+and you want to spend
+that wisely, right?
+LEX FRIDMAN: And a lot of the
+people that surround you--
+people are really
+important, and I
+don't have people around me that
+say you should do a start up.
+It's very difficult to
+find such people because--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Is Austin
+big startup culture right now?
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah, it is.
+It is.
+But it doesn't make sense
+for me to do a startup.
+This is what the people
+that love me my whole life
+have been telling me,
+it doesn't make sense
+what you're doing right now.
+Just do the thing you
+were doing previously.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Why
+do I get the sense
+that because they
+are saying this
+you're apt to go against them?
+LEX FRIDMAN: No.
+Actually, I was never
+that, unfortunately.
+Unfortunately, I need--
+I've talked to people I love,
+my parents, family, and so on,
+friends.
+I'm one of those people that
+needs unconditional support
+for difficult things.
+I know myself coaching
+wise is good--
+so here's how I
+get coached best.
+Let's say wrestling.
+I like a coach that says,
+you want to win the Olympics?
+They will not-- if
+I say I want to win
+the gold medal at the
+Olympics in freestyle
+wrestling I want a coach that
+doesn't blink once and hears me
+and believes that I
+can do it, and then
+is viciously intense and
+cruel to me on that pursuit.
+If you want to do
+this, let's do this.
+Right?
+But that's support.
+That positivity, I don't--
+I'm never-- I'm not energized,
+nor do I see that as love,
+a person saying--
+basically criticizing that.
+Saying, you're too old to win
+the Olympic gold medal, right?
+Or all the things
+you can come up with.
+That's not helpful to me
+and I can't find a dopamine,
+or I haven't yet, a dopamine
+source from the haters.
+Basically people that are
+criticizing you, trying
+to prove them wrong.
+It never got me off.
+It never--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Whereas some
+people seem to like that.
+I mean, David Goggins
+seems to come to mind.
+He seems driven by many sources.
+He has access--
+I don't know because
+I've never asked him,
+but if I were to
+venture a guess,
+I'd say that he probably
+has a lot of options
+inside his head as how to
+push through challenge.
+Not just overcome pain,
+but he'll post sometimes
+about the fact that
+people will say
+this or people will do this
+and talk about the pushback
+approach.
+He'll also talk
+about the pushback
+approach that's purely
+internal that doesn't
+involve anyone else.
+Great versatility there.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah.
+There's literally
+like a voice he
+yells that represents
+some kind of devil that
+wants him to fail,
+and he calls them
+bitch and all kinds of things
+saying, you know, fuck you.
+I'm not.
+There's always an enemy and
+he's going against that enemy.
+I mean, I wish--
+maybe that's something.
+I mean, it's really interesting.
+Maybe you can remap it this
+way so that you can construct--
+that's a kind of
+obvious mechanism.
+Construct an amorphous
+blob that is a hater that
+wants you to fail, right?
+That's kind of the
+David Goggins thing.
+And that blob says you're
+too weak, you're too dumb,
+you're too old,
+you're too fat, you're
+too whatever, and getting you
+to want to quit and so on.
+And then you start getting
+angry at that blob,
+and maybe that's
+a good motivator.
+I haven't personally
+really tried that.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, I've
+had external challenge when
+I was a postdoc, very
+prominent laboratory--
+several prominent
+laboratories, in fact,
+were working on the
+same thing that I was,
+and I was just
+this lowly postdoc
+working on a project
+pretty independent
+from the lab I was in.
+And there was
+competition but there
+was plenty of room for everybody
+to win, but in my head--
+and frankly, I won't
+disclose who this is.
+And because there was some
+legitimate competition there
+and a little bit of
+friction-- not too much,
+healthy scientific friction--
+yeah, I might have pushed
+a few extra hours or more,
+a little bit.
+I have to say, it
+felt metabolizing.
+It felt catabolic, right?
+I couldn't be sustained by it.
+And I contrast that with
+the podcast or the work
+that my laboratory
+is doing now focused
+on stress and human performance,
+et cetera, and it's pure love.
+It's pure curiosity and love.
+I mean, there are hard
+days, but I never-- there's
+no adversary in the picture.
+They're the practical
+workings of life that--
+LEX FRIDMAN: That was the thing
+that Joe really inspired me on,
+and people do create
+adversarial relationships
+in podcasting because you get--
+YouTubers do this.
+They hate seeing somebody
+else be successful.
+There's a feeling of
+jealousy, and some people even
+see that as healthy.
+Mr. Beast is somebody, some
+of these popular YouTubers,
+how do they get 100 million
+views and I only get 20 views?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Mr.
+Beast devoted his entire--
+according to him,
+his entire life
+he's been focused on becoming
+this massive YouTube channel.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Well, that,
+he's inspiring in many ways,
+but there's some
+people that become
+famous for doing much less
+insane pursuit of greatness
+than Mr. Beast.
+People become famous and
+on social media and so on,
+and it's easy to
+be jealous of them.
+One of the early things
+I've learned from Joe just
+being a fan of his
+podcast is how much
+he celebrated everybody.
+And again, maybe I ruined
+my whole dopamine thing
+but I don't get energized by
+people that become popular.
+In the podcasting
+space and YouTube,
+it doesn't-- it's awesome.
+All of it is awesome and
+I'm inspired by that.
+But the problem is that's
+not a good motivator.
+Inspiration is like, oh,
+cool, humans can do this.
+This is beautiful.
+But it's not--
+I'm looking.
+I'm looking for a
+forcing function.
+That's why I gave away
+the salary from MIT.
+I was hoping my bank
+account had zero.
+That would be a forcing
+function to be like, oh shit.
+You know?
+And you're not allowed
+to have a normal job,
+so I wanted to launch--
+and then the podcast
+becomes a source of income.
+So it's like, goddammit.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah.
+Yeah.
+Well, and here I have
+to confess my biases.
+You are so good at what you
+do in the realm of podcast--
+and you're excellent at
+other things as well,
+I just have less
+experience in those things.
+I know here I'm taking
+the liberty of speaking
+for many, many people
+in just saying,
+I sure as hell hope you
+don't shut down the podcast.
+But as your friend
+and as somebody
+who cares very deeply about
+your happiness and your deeper
+satisfaction, if it's
+in your heart's heart
+to do a company, well then,
+damn it, do the company.
+LEX FRIDMAN: And a lot
+of it I wouldn't even
+categorize as happiness.
+I don't know if you have
+things like that in your life,
+but I'm probably the happiest
+I could possibly be right now.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+That's wonderful.
+LEX FRIDMAN: But
+the thing is there's
+a longing for the
+start up that has
+nothing to do with happiness.
+It's something else.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+That's that itch.
+That's that itch.
+LEX FRIDMAN: I'm pretty sure
+I'll be less happy because it's
+a really tough process.
+I mean, to whatever degree
+you can extract happiness
+from struggle, yes, maybe.
+But I don't see it.
+I think I'll have some
+very, very low points.
+There's a lot of people
+who find companies--
+found companies know about.
+And I also want to
+be in a relationship,
+I want to get married,
+and sure as hell
+a startup is not
+going to increase
+the likelihood of that.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: We
+could start up a family
+and start a company.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Well, that's a--
+I'm a huge believer
+in that, which
+is get in a relationship
+at a low point
+in your life, which is--
+[LAUGHTER]
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Sorry.
+I'm not disputing your stance,
+nor am I agreeing with it.
+It's just every once
+in a while there's
+a Lex Fridmanism that hits a
+particular circuit in my brain.
+I have to just laugh out loud.
+LEX FRIDMAN: I just
+think that it's
+easy to have a relationship
+when everything is good.
+The relationships that become
+strong and are tested quickly
+are the ones when
+shit is going down.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, then
+there's hope for me yet.
+Before we sat down I was
+having a conversation
+with my podcast
+producer, who is a--
+I wouldn't say avid, rather he's
+a rabid consumer of podcasts
+and finds these amazing
+podcasts, small podcasts
+and unique episodes.
+Anyway, we were talking
+about some stuff
+that he had seen and read
+in the business sector,
+and he was talking about
+the difference between job,
+career, and a calling, right?
+And I think he was
+extracting this
+from conversations of CEOs
+and founders, et cetera.
+I forget the specific
+founders that
+brought this to light for him.
+But that this idea that
+if you focus on a job
+you can make an income, and
+hopefully you enjoy your job
+or not hate it too much.
+A career represents a
+sort of, in my mind,
+a kind of series of
+evolutions that one
+can go through-- junior
+professor, tenure, et cetera.
+But a calling has a whole
+other level of energetic pull
+to it because it
+includes career and job
+and it includes this
+concept of a life.
+It's very hard to draw the line
+between a calling in career
+and a calling in the
+other parts of your life.
+So the question,
+therefore, is, do
+you feel a calling
+to start this company
+or is it more of a compulsion
+that irritates you?
+Is it something you
+wish would go away
+or is it something that
+you hope won't go away?
+LEX FRIDMAN: No, I
+hope it won't go away.
+It's a calling.
+It's a calling.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+That's beautiful.
+LEX FRIDMAN: It's like
+when I see a robot--
+when I first
+interacted with robots,
+and it became even stronger the
+more sophisticated the robots
+I interacted, with
+I see a magic there.
+And you're like,
+you look around,
+does anyone else see this magic?
+It's kind of like maybe
+when you fall in love,
+like that feeling.
+Does anyone else
+notice this person
+that just walked in the room?
+I feel that way
+about robots, and I
+can elaborate what that
+means but I'm not even sure I
+can convert it into words.
+I just feel like the
+social integration
+of robots in society will create
+a really interesting world.
+And our ability to
+anthropomorphize
+when we look at a robot and
+our ability to feel things
+when we look at a robot is
+something that most of us
+don't yet experience,
+but I think
+everybody will experience
+in the next few decades.
+And I just want to be
+a part of exploring
+that because it hasn't been
+really thoroughly explored.
+The best roboticists
+in the world
+are not currently working
+on that problem at all.
+They try to avoid human
+beings completely,
+and nobody's really
+working that problem
+in terms of when you
+look at the numbers.
+All the big tech companies
+that are investing money,
+the closest thing
+to that is Alexa
+and basically being a servant
+to help tell you the weather
+or play music and so on.
+It's not trying to
+form a deep connection.
+And so sometimes you
+just notice the thing.
+Not only do I notice the magic.
+There's a gut
+feeling, which I try
+not to speak to because
+there's no track record,
+but I feel like I can be good
+at bringing that magic out
+of the robot.
+And there's no data that
+says I would be good at that,
+but there's a feeling.
+It's just a feeling.
+Because I've done
+so many things--
+I love doing playing guitar,
+all that kind of stuff, jujitsu.
+I've never felt that feeling.
+When I'm doing
+jujitsu I don't feel
+the magic of the genius
+required to be extremely good.
+At guitar I don't
+feel any of that.
+But I've noticed that in
+others, great musicians,
+they notice the magic
+about the thing they do
+and they ran with it.
+And I just always thought--
+I think it had a different
+form before I knew robots
+existed, before I existed.
+The form was more about
+the magic between humans.
+I think of it as love, but
+the smile that two friends
+have towards each other
+when I was really young.
+And people would be excited
+when they first know each other
+and notice each other,
+and there's that moment
+that they share that
+feeling together.
+I was like, wow, that's
+really interesting.
+It is really interesting
+that these two
+separate intelligent
+organisms are
+able to connect all of a sudden
+on this deep emotional level.
+It's like, huh.
+It's just beautiful to see,
+and I notice the magic of that.
+And then when I started a
+programming-- programming,
+period, but then programming
+AI systems, you realize, oh,
+that could be--
+that's not just between
+humans and humans.
+That could be humans and
+other entities, dogs, cats,
+and robots.
+And so I-- for some reason
+it hit me the most intensely
+when I saw robots.
+So yeah, it's a calling.
+But it's a calling that I can
+just enjoy the vision of it,
+the vision of a future world, of
+an exciting future world that's
+full of cool stuff, or I can
+be part of building that.
+And being part of
+building that means
+doing the hard work
+of capitalism, which
+is like raising funds from
+people, which for me, right
+now, is the easy part, and
+then hiring a lot of people.
+I don't know how much you know
+about hiring, but hiring--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Hiring
+excellent people.
+LEX FRIDMAN:
+Excellent people that
+will define the
+trajectory of not only
+your company, but your whole
+existence as a human being.
+And building it up, not
+failing them because now
+they all depend on you,
+and not failing the world
+with an opportunity
+to bring something
+that brings joy to people.
+And all of that
+pressure, just non-stop
+fires that you have to put out.
+The drama, the having
+to work with people
+you've never worked with like
+lawyers and human resources
+and supply chain.
+And because this is
+very compute heavy,
+the computer infrastructure,
+managing security,
+cybersecurity, because you're
+dealing with people's data.
+So now you have to understand
+not only the cybersecurity
+of data and the privacy, how
+to maintain privacy correctly
+with data, but also the
+psychology of people trusting
+you with their data.
+And how, if you look at Mark
+Zuckerberg and Jack Dorsey
+and those folks,
+they seem to be hated
+by a large number of people.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Jack seemed--
+I didn't--
+LEX FRIDMAN: Much less so, yes.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I think I
+always think of Jack as a loved
+individual, but--
+LEX FRIDMAN: Well, yeah, you
+have a very positive view
+of the world, yes.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I like Jack a
+lot and I like his mind and I--
+someone close to him
+described him to me
+recently as he's an
+excellent listener.
+That's what they
+said about Jack,
+and that's my
+experience of him too.
+Very private person so
+we'll leave it at that.
+But listen, I think
+Jack Dorsey is
+one of the greats of
+the last 200 years
+and is just much quieter
+about his stance on things
+than a lot of people.
+But much of what we see in
+the world that's wonderful,
+I think we owe him
+a debt of gratitude.
+I'm just voicing my
+stance here, but--
+LEX FRIDMAN: And the person.
+This is really important.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah.
+LEX FRIDMAN: A wonderful
+person, a brilliant person,
+a good person,
+but you still have
+to pay the price of making
+any kind of mistakes
+as the head of a company.
+You don't get any extra bonus
+points for being a good person.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: But his
+willingness to go on Rogan
+and deal directly and say,
+I don't know an answer
+to that in some cases.
+But to deal directly with some
+really challenging questions
+to me earned him
+tremendous respect.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yes.
+As an individual.
+He was still part of him--
+you've said-- OK,
+and I love Jack too,
+and I interact with him often.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: He's
+been on your podcast.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yes.
+But he's also part of a
+system, as we talked about,
+and I would argue that Jack
+shouldn't have brought anyone
+else with him on that podcast.
+If you go--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Oh, that's right.
+He had a cadre of--
+LEX FRIDMAN: Oh, he had I
+guess the head legal with him.
+And also it requires a
+tremendous amount of skill
+to go on a podcast
+like Joe Rogan
+and be able to win over
+the trust of people
+by being able to be
+transparent and communicate
+how the company really works
+because the more you reveal
+about how a social
+media company works,
+the more you open
+up for security,
+the vector of attacks increases.
+Also, there's a lot of
+difficult decisions in terms
+of censorship and
+not that are made
+that if you make
+them transparent
+you're going to get an order
+of magnitude more hate.
+So you have to make all
+those kinds of decisions,
+and I think that's one of
+the things I have to realize
+is you have to take that
+avalanche of potentially
+hate if you make mistakes.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, you
+have a very clear picture
+of this architecture
+of what's required
+in order to create a company.
+Of course, there's
+division of labor too.
+I mean, you don't have to do
+all of those things in detail,
+but finding people that
+are excellent to do--
+to run the critical
+segments is obviously key.
+I'll just say what
+I said earlier,
+which is if it's in your heart's
+heart to start a company,
+if that, indeed,
+is your calling,
+and it sounds like it
+is, then I can't wait.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Does the
+heart have a heart?
+I don't know.
+What's that
+expression even mean?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Probably not.
+LEX FRIDMAN: We
+romanticize the heart.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: In my lab
+at one point, early days
+we worked on cuttlefish, and
+they have multiple hearts,
+but they pump green
+blood, believe it or not.
+Very fascinating animal.
+Speaking of hearts
+and green blood,
+earlier today
+before we sat down I
+solicited four questions on
+Instagram in a brief post.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Do you want to--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: If you'll--
+LEX FRIDMAN: --look
+at some of them?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yes, let's
+take these in real time.
+My podcast team is always
+teasing me that I never
+have any charge on my phone.
+I'm one of these people that
+likes to run in the yellow,
+or whatever it is.
+LEX FRIDMAN: An iPhone?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah.
+LEX FRIDMAN: It's funny
+how always the iPhone
+people are out of battery.
+It's weird.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well,
+I just got a new one.
+LEX FRIDMAN: So weird.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I mean, this
+one has plenty of battery.
+I just got a new one so
+I have different numbers
+for different things,
+personal and work, et cetera.
+I'm trying that now.
+All right.
+Get into the--
+LEX FRIDMAN: I have a chess
+thing too to mention to you.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Oh, yes, please.
+Will I insult you if I look up
+these questions as you ask me?
+LEX FRIDMAN: No, no.
+But I will insult you by asking
+you this question because I
+think it's hilarious.
+So there's been a controversy
+about cheating where
+Hans Niemann, who
+is a 2,700 player--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh, yeah.
+LEX FRIDMAN: --was
+accused of cheating.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I saw that
+clip on your clips channel.
+By the way, I love
+your clips channel,
+but I listen to
+your full channel.
+LEX FRIDMAN: The big accusation
+is that he cheated by having--
+I mean, it's half
+joke but it's starting
+getting me to wonder whether--
+so that you can cheat by having
+vibrating anal beads so you
+can send messages to--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, let's
+rephrase that statement.
+Not you can, but one can.
+LEX FRIDMAN: One can.
+One can.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Yeah, thank you.
+LEX FRIDMAN: That was
+a personal attack, yes.
+But it made me realize, I mean--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'm just going
+to adjust myself in my seat
+here.
+LEX FRIDMAN: I use
+it all the time
+for podcasting to
+send myself messages
+to remind myself of notes.
+But it's interesting.
+I mean, it--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'm not
+going to call you again.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah, that's
+exactly where I keep my phone.
+It did get me down this
+whole rabbit hole of, well,
+how would you be able to
+send communication in order
+to cheat in different sports?
+I mean, that doesn't even have
+to do with chess in particular,
+but it's interesting
+in chess and poker
+that there's mechanisms
+modern day where
+you're streaming live
+the competition so people
+can watch it on TV.
+If they can only send
+you a signal back, they--
+it's just a fun little
+thing to think about
+and if it's possible
+to pull off.
+So I wanted to get your
+scientific evaluation of that--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: To
+cheat using some sort
+of interoceptive device?
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah.
+Vibrating of some kind.
+Yeah.
+Or no, no.
+That's one way to send
+signals is, like, Morse code,
+basically.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah.
+So there's a famous--
+I believe there's
+a famous real world
+story of physics students--
+I'm going to get
+some of this wrong
+so I'm saying this in
+kind of coarse form
+so that somebody
+will correct this.
+But I believe it was physics
+graduate students from UC Santa
+Cruz or somewhere else,
+maybe it was Caltech--
+a bunch of universities
+so that no one associates
+it with any one university
+that went to Vegas
+and used some sort of tactile
+device for card counting thing.
+This was actually
+demonstrated also--
+not this particular
+incident, I don't think--
+in the movie Casino
+where they spotted a--
+I remember Robert
+De Niro, who you
+have a not so vague resemblance
+to, by the way, in Taxi Driver.
+LEX FRIDMAN: God, I wish I had
+a De Niro impression right now.
+Travis Bickle.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Look it up, folks.
+Travis Bickle is if Lex ever
+shaved his head into a Mohawk.
+LEX FRIDMAN: I would.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: So he had a
+tapping device on his ankle
+that was signaling.
+Someone else was counting
+cards and then signaling
+to that person.
+So yeah, that could be
+done in the tactile way.
+It could be done,
+obviously, earpieces
+if it's deep earpiece.
+I think there are ways
+that they look for that.
+Certainly any kind
+of vibrational device
+in whatever orifice provided
+someone could pay attention
+to that while still
+playing the game.
+Yeah, I think it's
+entirely possible.
+Now, could it be
+done purely neurally?
+Could there be
+something that was--
+and listen, it wouldn't have
+to even be below the skull.
+This is where whenever people
+hear about Neuralink or brain
+machine interface
+they always think,
+oh, you have to drill
+down below the skull
+and put a chip below
+into the skull.
+I think there are people
+walking around nowadays
+with glucose monitoring devices,
+like Levels-- which I've used
+and it was very informative
+for me, actually,
+as a kind of an experiment.
+Gave me a lot of interesting
+insights about my blood sugar
+regulation, how it reacts to
+different foods, et cetera.
+Well, you can implant
+a tactile device
+below the skin with
+a simple incision.
+Actually, one of the
+neurosurgeons at Neuralink
+I know well because he
+came up at some point
+through my laboratory
+and was at Stanford,
+and he actually has put in a
+radio receiver in his hand,
+and his wife has it too.
+And he can open locks
+of his house and things
+like that, so he's been doing--
+LEX FRIDMAN: Under the skin?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Under the skin.
+You can go to--
+LEX FRIDMAN: How does that work?
+So how do you use--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: A piercer.
+You go to a body
+piercer type person
+and they can just
+slide it under there,
+and it's got a battery
+life of something
+and some fairly long duration.
+LEX FRIDMAN: How do you
+experience the tactile--
+the haptics of it?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh, no.
+That just allows him to
+open certain locks with just
+his hand, but you could easily
+put some sort of tactile device
+in there.
+LEX FRIDMAN: But does it
+have to connect to the nerves
+or is it just like--
+just vibration?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+No, just vibration.
+LEX FRIDMAN: And
+you can probably
+sense it even if it's
+under the skin, I wonder.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: And
+it can be by-- it
+can be Bluetooth linked.
+I mean, I've seen--
+there's an Engineering
+Laboratory at the University
+of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana,
+that's got an amazing
+device which is
+about the size of a Band-Aid.
+It goes on the
+clavicles and it uses
+sound waves pinged into the
+body to measure cavitation.
+Think about this for a moment.
+This is being used in
+the military where,
+let's say, you're leading
+an operation or something.
+People are getting shot,
+shot at, and on a laptop
+you can see where the
+bullet entry points are.
+Are people dead?
+Are they bleeding out?
+Entry, exit points.
+You can get-- take it out
+of the battlefield scenario.
+You can get breathing, body
+position 24 hours a day.
+There's so much that you can
+do looking at cavitation.
+So these same sorts of
+devices on 12 hour Bluetooth
+could be used to send
+all sorts of signals.
+Maybe every time you're
+supposed to hold your hand--
+I'm not a good gambler
+so I only play roulette
+when I go to Vegas because
+you just long, boring games,
+but you get some good mileage
+out of each out of each run,
+usually.
+But maybe every time
+you're supposed to hold,
+the person gets a
+stomach cinching
+because this is stimulating
+the vagus a little bit
+and they get a little
+bit of an ache.
+So it doesn't have
+to be Morse code.
+It can be yes, no, maybe.
+Right?
+It can be green, red,
+yellow type signaling.
+It doesn't have to be very
+sophisticated to give somebody
+a significant advantage.
+Anyway, I haven't thought
+about this in detail
+before this conversation
+but, oh, yeah,
+there's an immense landscape.
+LEX FRIDMAN: I don't
+know if you know
+a poker player named Phil Ivey?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: No, I don't
+follow the gambling thing.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Well,
+he's considered
+to be one of the
+greatest poker players
+of all time legitimately.
+He's just incredibly good.
+But he got-- there's
+this big case where
+he was accused of
+cheating and prove--
+and it's not really
+cheating, which
+is what's really fascinating.
+Is it turns out--
+so he plays poker.
+Texas Hold'em, mostly,
+but all kinds of poker.
+It turns out that the grid
+on the back of the cards
+is often printed a
+little bit imperfectly,
+and so you can use the
+asymmetry of the imperfections
+to try to figure
+out certain cards.
+So if you play and you remember
+that a certain card is, like--
+I think the 8 in that deck that
+he was accused of-- an 8 and 9
+were slightly different
+symmetry wise.
+So he can now ask
+the dealer actually
+to rotate it to
+check the symmetry.
+So you would ask the dealer
+to rotate the card to see that
+there's-- to detect the
+asymmetry of the back
+of the card, and now he
+knows which cards are
+8's and 9's or likelier to be
+8's and 9's, and he was using
+that information to play
+poker and win a lot of money.
+But it's just a
+slight advantage.
+And his case is-- and
+in fact, the judge
+found this, that he's
+not actually cheating,
+but it's not right.
+You can't use this kind
+of extra information.
+So it's fascinating that you
+can discover these little holes
+in games if you pay
+close enough attention.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah.
+It's fascinating.
+And I think that I
+did watch that clip
+about the potential of a
+cheating event in chess,
+and the fact that a
+number of chess players
+admit to cheating at some
+point in their career.
+Very, very interesting.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Well,
+it was online.
+So online cheating
+is easier, right?
+When you're playing
+online cheating
+in a game where the machine
+is much better than the human,
+it's very difficult to
+prove that you're human.
+And that applies, by the
+way, another really big thing
+is in social media, the bots.
+If you're running a
+social media company
+you have to deal with the
+bots and they become--
+one of the really
+exciting things
+in machine learning and
+artificial intelligence, to me,
+is the very fast improvement
+of language models.
+So neural networks
+that generate text,
+that interpret text, that
+generate from text, images
+and all that kind of stuff.
+But you're now going to
+create incredible bots that
+look awfully a lot like humans.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Well, at least they're
+not going to be those
+crypto bots that
+seem to populate my comment
+section when I post anything
+on Instagram.
+I actually delete those
+even though they add
+to the comment roster and if--
+they bother me so much.
+I spend at least 10, 15 minutes
+on each post just deleting
+those.
+I don't know what
+they need to do
+but I'm not interested
+in those, whatever
+it is they're offering.
+Speaking of nonbots,
+I'm going to assume
+that all the questions
+are not from bots.
+There are a lot of
+questions here--
+more than 10,000 questions.
+Goodness.
+I'll just take a few,
+working from top to bottom.
+What ideas have you been
+wrestling with lately?
+And I think about
+the company as one,
+but as I scroll to the
+next, what are some others?
+LEX FRIDMAN: Well, some of
+the things we've talked about,
+which is the ideas of how
+to understand what is true,
+what is true about a human
+being, how to reveal that,
+how to reveal that
+through conversation, how
+to challenge that
+properly, that it leads
+to understanding not derision.
+So that applies to
+everybody from Donald Trump
+to Vladimir Putin.
+Also another idea is there's
+a deep distrust of science
+in trying to understand-- the
+growing distrust of science,
+trying to understand what's
+the role of those of us
+that have a foot in the
+scientific community,
+how to regain some
+of that trust.
+Also, there's-- as we talked
+about, how to find and how to--
+yeah, how to find and how to
+maintain a good relationship.
+I mean, that's really been--
+I've never felt
+quite as lonely as I
+have this year with Ukraine.
+It's just like, so many
+times I would just lay there
+and just feeling so deeply alone
+because I felt that my home--
+not my home literally
+because I'm an American.
+I'm a proud American.
+I'll die an American.
+But my home in the
+sense of generationally,
+my family's home, is now going--
+has been changed forever.
+There's no more being proud of
+being from the former Russia
+or Ukraine.
+It's now a political
+message to say--
+to show your pride, and so
+it's been extremely lonely.
+And within that world, with
+all the things I'm pursuing,
+how do you find a
+successful relationship?
+It has been tough.
+But obviously-- and
+there's a huge number
+of technical ideas
+with the startup of,
+like, how the hell do
+you make this thing work?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well,
+the relationship topic
+is one we talked a
+little bit about,
+and last time we touched on
+in a little bit more detail.
+We're going to come back to
+that, so I've made a note here.
+What or who inspired
+Lex, you, to wear
+a suit every time you podcast?
+That's a good question.
+I don't know the answer to that.
+LEX FRIDMAN: So there's two
+answers to that question.
+One is a suit and two is
+a black suit and black tie
+because I used to do--
+I used to have more variety,
+which is like it was always
+a black suit but
+I would sometimes
+do a red tie and a blue tie.
+But that was mostly me
+trying to fit in to society
+because varieties-- you're
+supposed to have some variety.
+What inspired me at first
+was a general culture
+that doesn't take
+itself seriously
+in terms of how you present
+yourself to the world.
+So in academia,
+in the tech world,
+at Google, everybody was wearing
+pajamas and very relaxed.
+In the tech.
+I don't know how it
+is in the science,
+in the chemistry,
+biology, and so on.
+But in computer science
+everybody was very--
+I mean, very relaxed in
+terms of the stuff they
+wear so I wanted to try
+to really take myself
+seriously and take every
+single moment seriously
+and everything I do
+seriously, and the suit
+made me feel that way.
+I don't know how it looks,
+but it made me feel that way.
+And I think, in terms
+of people I look up
+to that wore a suit that made
+me think of that is probably
+Richard Feynman.
+I see--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: He was
+a wonderful human being.
+LEX FRIDMAN: I see him as the
+epitome of class and humor
+and brilliance, and
+obviously I could never
+come close to that kind of--
+be able to simply explain
+really complicated ideas
+and to have humor and wit,
+but definitely aspire to that.
+And then there's
+just the Mad Men,
+that whole era of the '50s,
+the classiness of that.
+There's something
+about a suit that
+both removes the importance
+of fashion from the character.
+You see the person.
+I think not to--
+I forgot who said this.
+Might be, like, Coco Chanel
+or somebody like this.
+Is that you wear a shabby dress
+and everyone sees the dress.
+You wear a beautiful dress
+and everybody sees the woman.
+So in that sense it was--
+hopefully I'm quoting
+that correctly, but--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Sounds good.
+LEX FRIDMAN: I think
+there's a sense in which
+a simple, classy suit
+allows people to focus
+on your character and then do
+so with the full responsibility
+of that, this is who I am.
+Yeah.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I love
+that, and I love what
+you said just prior to that.
+My father, who, again,
+is always asking me
+why I don't dress formally
+like you do always
+said to me growing
+up, if you overdress
+slightly, at least people know
+that you took them seriously.
+So it's a sign of respect for
+your audience too in my eyes.
+Someone asked, is there an AI
+equivalent of psychedelics?
+And I'm assuming they
+mean is there something
+that machines can do
+for themselves in order
+to alter their neural circuitry
+through unconventional
+activation patterns.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yes, obviously.
+Well, I don't know exactly
+how psychedelics work,
+but you can see that with
+all the diffusion models
+now with Dali and the
+stable diffusion that
+generates from text, art.
+It's basically a small
+injection of noise
+into a system that has
+a deep representation
+of visual information.
+So it is able to convert text to
+art in introducing uncertainty
+into that noise into that.
+That's kind of maybe.
+I could see that as a
+parallel to psychedelics,
+and it's able to create
+some incredible things.
+From a conceptual
+understanding of a thing,
+it can create incredible
+art that no human, I think,
+could have at least
+easily created
+through a bit of
+introduction of randomness.
+Randomness does a lot of work
+in the machine learning world.
+Just enough.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: There are
+a lot of requests of you
+for relationship,
+a lot of requests
+about statistics about you,
+data about you specifically.
+Flipping past those,
+what was the hardest belt
+to achieve in jujitsu?
+I would have assumed
+the black belt,
+but is that actually true?
+LEX FRIDMAN: No.
+I mean, everybody has
+a different journey
+through jujitsu, as people know.
+For me, the black belt
+was the ceremonial belt,
+which is not usually the case,
+because I fought the wars.
+I trained twice a day for I
+don't know how many years--
+seven, eight years.
+I competed nonstop.
+I competed against people
+much better than me.
+I competed against many
+and beaten many black belts
+and brown belts.
+I think, for me personally,
+the hardest belt
+was the brown belt because,
+for people who know jujitsu,
+the size of tournament divisions
+for blue belts and purple belts
+is just humongous.
+Like Worlds, when I competed
+at Worlds it was, like,
+140 people in a division,
+which means you have to win--
+I forget how many times,
+but seven, eight, nine times
+in a row to medal.
+And so I just had to put in a
+lot of work during that time.
+And especially for competitors,
+instructors usually
+really make you earn a belt.
+So to earn the purple belt was
+extremely difficult.
+Extremely difficult. And then
+to earn the brown
+belt means I had
+to compete nonstop against other
+purple belts, which are young.
+You're talking about-- the
+people that usually compete
+are, like, 23, 24,
+25-year-olds that are shredded,
+incredible cardio.
+They can, for some reason, are
+in their life where they can--
+no kids, nothing.
+They can dedicate
+everything to this pursuit
+so they're training two,
+three, four times a day.
+Diet is on point.
+You're going-- and for me,
+because they're usually bigger
+and taller than me and
+just more aggressive,
+actual good athletes, yeah, I
+had to go through a lot of wars
+to earn that brown
+belt. But then--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I got to
+try this jujitsu thing.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah, you should.
+But it's a different--
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Well, I tried it.
+I did the one class, but I
+really want to embrace it.
+LEX FRIDMAN: As you know,
+many pursuits like jujitsu
+are different if you're doing it
+in your 20s and 30s and later.
+It's like it's a different--
+you're not-- you can have a
+bit of an ego in your 20s.
+You can have that
+fire under you,
+but you should be more
+zenlike and wise and patient
+later in life.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Well, one would hope.
+That's the wisdom.
+LEX FRIDMAN: I think
+Rogan is still a meathead.
+He still goes hard and
+crazy and he's still
+super competitive on
+that, so some people can--
+Jocko is somebody like that.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN:
+Well, whatever they're
+doing they're doing something
+right because they're still
+in it, and that's
+super impressive.
+There were far too many
+questions to ask all of them,
+but several, if not many, asked
+a highly appropriate question
+for where we are in the
+arc of this discussion.
+And this is one, admittedly,
+that you ask in your podcast
+all the time, but I
+get the great pleasure
+of being in the question
+asker seat today.
+And so, what is your
+advice to young people?
+LEX FRIDMAN: So I just
+gave a lecture at MIT
+and the amount of love I
+got there is incredible.
+And so of course, who
+you're talking to is usually
+undergrads, maybe young
+graduate students, and so there
+one person did ask for advice
+as a question at the end.
+I did a bunch of Q&A. So my
+answer was that the world will
+tell you to find a work-life
+balance, to explore,
+to try to--
+try different fields
+to see what you really
+connect with, variety,
+general education, all
+that kind of stuff.
+And I said in your
+20s I think you
+should find one thing
+you're passionate about
+and work harder at that than
+you worked at anything else
+in your life.
+And if it destroys
+you, it destroys you.
+That's advice for in your 20s.
+I don't know how universally
+true that advice is,
+but I think at least
+give that a chance.
+Sacrifice, real sacrifice
+towards a thing you
+really care about,
+and work your ass off.
+That said, I've
+met so many people,
+and I'm starting to
+think that advice is best
+applied or best tried in
+the engineer disciplines,
+especially programming.
+I think there's a bunch of
+disciplines in which you
+can achieve success
+with much fewer hours,
+and it's much more
+important to actually
+have a clarity of
+thinking and great ideas
+and have an energetic mind.
+The grind in certain disciplines
+does not produce great work.
+I just know that in computer
+science and programming
+it often does.
+Some of the best people ever
+that have built systems,
+have programmed systems are
+usually like the John Carmack
+kind of people that drink
+soda, eat pizza, and program
+18 hours a day.
+So I don't know actually.
+You have to, I think, really
+go discipline specific.
+So my advice applies
+to my own life
+which has been mostly
+spent behind that computer,
+and for that you really, really
+have to put in the hours.
+And what that means
+is essentially
+it feels like a grind.
+I do recommend that you should
+at least try it in your own.
+That if you interview some of
+the most accomplished people
+ever, I think if
+they're honest with you
+they're going to
+talk about their 20s
+as a journey of a lot of pain
+and a lot of really hard work.
+I think what really
+happens, unfortunately,
+is a lot of those successful
+people later in life
+will talk about
+work-life balance.
+They'll say, you
+know what I learned
+from that process is that it's
+really important to get, like,
+sun in the morning,
+to have health,
+to have good relationships.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Hire a chef.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Yeah, a chef.
+Exactly.
+But I think you have
+forgot-- those people have
+forgotten the value
+of the journey they
+took to that lesson.
+I think work-life balance is
+best learned the hard way.
+My own perspective.
+There are certain things you
+can only learn the hard way,
+and so you should learn
+that the hard way.
+Yeah, so that's
+definitely advice.
+And I should say that I
+admire people that work hard.
+If you want to get
+on my good side,
+I think there are the
+people that give everything
+they got towards something.
+It doesn't actually
+matter what it
+is, but towards achieving
+excellence in a thing.
+That's the highest thing that
+we can reach for as human beings
+I think is excellence
+at a thing.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I love it.
+Well, speaking of
+excellent at a thing.
+Whether or not it's teaching
+at MIT or the podcast
+or the company that
+resides in the near future
+that you create--
+once again, I'm speaking for
+an enormous number of people
+that excellence and hard
+work, certainly, are woven
+through everything that you do.
+Every time I sit down with
+you I begin and finish
+with such an immense feeling
+of joy and appreciation
+and gratitude, and it wouldn't
+be a Lex Fridman podcast,
+or in case of Lex even
+being a guest on a podcast,
+if the word love weren't
+mentioned at least 10 times.
+So the feelings of gratitude
+for all the work you do,
+for taking the time here today
+to share with us what you're
+doing, your thoughts,
+your insights, what
+you're perplexed about and what
+drives you and your callings.
+LEX FRIDMAN: Can I read a poem?
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yes, please.
+He was trying to
+cut me off post.
+That was getting a little long.
+LEX FRIDMAN: No.
+No, no, no.
+I was thinking
+about this recently.
+It's one of my favorite
+Robert Frost poems, and I--
+because I wrote several
+essays on it, as you do,
+because I think it's a
+popular one that's read.
+Essays being, like, trying
+to interpret poetry,
+and it's one that
+sticks with me.
+I mean, both its calm beauty,
+but in the seriousness
+of what it means because I
+ultimately think it's the--
+so "Stopping by a Woods
+on a Snowy Evening."
+I think it's ultimately
+a human being, a man,
+asking the old Sisyphus, the
+old Camus question of, why live?
+I think this poem,
+even though it
+doesn't seem like it is a
+question of a man contending
+with suicide and
+choosing to live.
+Whose woods these
+are, I think I know.
+His house is in the
+village, though.
+He will not see me stopping
+here to watch his woods fill up
+with snow.
+My little horse
+must think it queer
+to stop without a farmhouse near
+between the woods and frozen
+lake, the darkest
+evening of the year.
+He gives this
+harness bells a shake
+to ask if there's some mistake.
+The only other sound's the sweep
+of easy wind and downy flake.
+The woods are lovely,
+dark, and deep,
+but I have promises to keep
+and miles to go before I sleep,
+and miles to go before I sleep.
+The woods representing
+the darkness,
+the comfort of the woods
+representing death,
+and he's a man choosing to live.
+Yeah, I think about that often,
+especially my darker moments
+is you have promises to keep.
+Thank you for having me, Andrew.
+You're a beautiful human being.
+I love you, brother.
+ANDREW HUBERMAN: I
+love you, brother.
+Thank you for joining me today
+for my discussion with Dr. Lex
+Fridman, and special thanks to
+Dr. Lex Fridman for inspiring
+me to start this podcast.
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+and/or enjoying this podcast,
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+Huberman Lab podcast,
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+of today's episode.
+That's the best way to
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+but on many previous episodes
+of the Huberman Lab podcast
+we do discuss supplements
+because while supplements
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+Thank you, again, for joining me
+for the discussion with Dr. Lex
+Fridman, and as
+always, thank you
+for your interest in science.
+[MUSIC PLAYING]
\ No newline at end of file