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-[Music]
-welcome to the hubman lab guest Series
-where I and an expert guest discuss
-science and science-based tools for
-everyday
-life I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a
-professor of neurobiology and
-Opthalmology at Stanford school of
-medicine today March the 3D episode in
-our sixth episode series all about sleep
-with expert guest Dr Matthew Walker
-during today's episode we discuss how to
-structure your sleep for optimal mental
-health physical health and performance
-we discuss monophasic sleep schedules
-which are the more typical sleep
-schedule where you go to sleep at night
-and then wake up in the morning so
-sleeping in one bout as opposed to
-polyphasic sleep schedules which are
-when you sleep in two or more bouts
-either at night or perhaps a shorter
-bout of sleep at night and another bout
-of sleep during the day we also discuss
-naps including how to nap how long your
-nap should be whether or not naps are
-good or bad in particular whether or not
-they're good or bad for you it turns out
-this varies according to individual we
-also discuss how your needs for sleep
-and naps vary across the lifespan and we
-discuss body position during sleep which
-might seem excessively detailed but it
-turns out that body position during
-sleep is critical for ensuring that the
-sleep you get is optimally restorative
-as with the first two episodes of this
-six episode series today's third episode
-is filled with both science that is the
-biology of sleep and napping and body
-position and how those relate to one
-another as well as practical tools that
-you can use to vastly improve your sleep
-before we begin I'd like to emphasize
-that this podcast is separate from my
-teaching and research roles at Stanford
-it is however part of my desire and
-effort to bring zero cost to Consumer
-information about science and science
-related tools to the general public in
-keeping with that theme I'd like to
-thank the sponsors of today's podcast
-our first sponsor is betterhelp
-betterhelp offers Professional Therapy
-with a licensed therapist carried out
-online now I've been doing therapy for
-well over 30 years initially I had to do
-therapy against my will but of course I
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-because I really believe that doing
-regular therapy with a quality therapist
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-for our mental health indeed for many
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-regular physical exercise the great
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-fair to say that we can define a great
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-can talk about a variety of different
-issues and who can provide you not just
-support but also insight and with better
-help they make it extremely conven vent
-so that it's matched to your schedule
-and other aspects of your life if you'd
-like to try betterhelp you can go to
-betterhelp.com huberman to get 10% off
-your first month again that's
-betterhelp.com
-huberman today's episode is also brought
-To Us by element element is an
-electrolyte drink that has everything
-you need and nothing you don't that
-means plenty of the electrolytes
-magnesium potassium and sodium and no
-sugar as I mentioned before on this
-podcast I'm a big fan of salt now I want
-to be clear people who already consume a
-lot of salt or who have high blood
-pressure or who happen to consume a lot
-of processed foods that typically
-contain salt need to control their salt
-intake however if you're somebody who
-eats pretty clean and you're somebody
-who exercises and you're drinking a lot
-of water there's a decent chance that
-you could benefit from ingesting more
-electrolytes with your liquids the
-reason for that is that all the cells in
-our body including the nerve cells the
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-just want to be hydrated we want to be
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-with element that's very easy to do what
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-t.com today's episode is also brought To
-Us by waking up waking up is a
-meditation app that has hundreds of
-different meditations as well as scripts
-for Yoga Nidra and non-sleep deep rest
-or nsdr protocols by now there is an
-abundance of data showing that even
-short daily meditations can greatly
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-efficient for you it includes a variety
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-another thing I really like about the
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-Waking Up app you can go to waking
-up.com huberman and access a free 30-day
-trial again that's waking up.com
-huberman and now for my conversation
-with Dr Matthew Walker Dr Walker welcome
-back Dr huberman an absolute pleasure
-let's talk about the different types of
-sleep because I think most people think
-of sleep as just one thing most people
-sleep at night some people also nap a
-topic we'll also discuss today
-but turns out there are a lot of
-different different types of sleep what
-are the different types of sleep and
-what do they do for us and um I guess
-everyone's probably wondering already I
-certainly am what types of sleep are we
-already engaging in meaning am I
-involved in or having multiple types of
-sleep each night this is a fascinating
-question and it comes back to something
-we've discussed in a previous episode
-the different stages of sleep and how
-they unfold we've described that
-fascinating stuff what you're already
-asking though is is an incredibly sort
-of subtle but relevant question how
-should I be sleeping in terms of the
-phases of sleep should I have one phase
-should I have two phases of sleep or
-should I have many phases of sleep in
-some ways you can answer that question
-on the basis of the lifespan because how
-it is that we sleep in terms of those
-chunking sessions changes as we
-develop to be clear in
-nomenclature I'm saying monophasic basic
-polyphasic unpack that monophasic
-obviously just simply means a single
-phase monophasic when you say phase you
-mean one bout of sleep correct so that
-would be within a 24-hour period you are
-having a single bout of sleep basic then
-means that within that 24-hour phase you
-are having two bouts of sleep and we'll
-speak about how those bouts are split up
-are they split up between two halves in
-the middle of the night or are they
-split up in terms of longer at night
-Siesta like nap in the afternoon and
-then we can speak about polyphasic sleep
-polyphasic sleep we in sleep science
-have been using for many years in the
-context of infancy because there as any
-new parents will know infants do not
-just simply have a nice single bout of
-sleep they're up they're down they're up
-they're down and have many bouts of
-sleep within that 24-hour period and
-that's polyphasic sleep the other term
-or the other application of that term
-polyphasic sleep has been used more so
-in the sort of interesting biohacker
-movement and we can we'll come back to
-that perhaps later on so how do these
-different phases of sleep change across
-the lifespan well we've already said
-that when you're an infant and you're
-first born within the first year of life
-you are incredibly poly phasic and you
-are probably going through wake sleep
-phases every 2 hours why do you do that
-why can't you just simply be born and
-sleep in a monophasic way it's for at
-least two reasons first an infant needs
-to feed every two hours so their energy
-needs and their food intake requirements
-dictate that you can't sleep for very
-long because you need to be awake to
-feed and then you go back to
-sleep Within probably the first six
-months things will start to to change a
-little bit but the second reason that
-you are highly polyphasic when you are
-first born is because your super
-chiasmatic nucleus and in another
-episode we spoke about this Central
-master 24-hour clock that beats out your
-Cadian Rhythm the rise and the fall the
-wake and the sleep that has not yet
-developed it hasn't been glued into
-place into the brain this 24-hour clock
-so the infant seemingly knows nothing
-about when it's light or when it's dark
-outside that just awake or sleep awake a
-sleeve so that's the second reason
-energy feeding needs is the first and
-then an absence of yet a fully developed
-24-hour clock in the brain to beat out
-that beautiful dictated Rhythm by about
-age one that number of phases of sleep
-are starting to decrease but it's still
-highly polyphasic it's not not until you
-get to probably age two or three that
-now you're starting to see this
-consolidation of sleep what do I mean by
-that sleep is now happening more
-dominantly in the night phase of the
-24-hour cycle and there a few abouts of
-sleep during the
-daytime then perhaps by the time you're
-in kindergarten you may be down to just
-two sleeps so now we've switched from
-polyphasic sleep as infants to basic
-sleep as kindergarten could you describe
-that it was basic patterns I recall in
-kindergarten um having nap time in the
-afternoon yeah they put out these little
-mats and every every kid would just kind
-like roll up it's actually sounds really
-nice it's one you know wouldn't and
-we'll speak about how some adults do
-this too but almost every kindergarten
-system that I've inquired about around
-the world different nations they all
-have this nap time and Any teacher will
-tell you if one of those children does
-not nap during that period of time they
-are the Loose Canon they are the live
-wire and in subsequent episodes we'll
-speak about exactly how sleep harnesses
-and improves our emotional and mental
-health and how it falls apart when we
-don't so that that's how it certainly is
-emerging biologically and that's how we
-as a society respect that and
-accommodate that
-and then probably by the age of starting
-school so sort of five or six now we're
-starting to see fully monophasic sleep
-children sleeping long bouts at night
-and then being able to sustain
-wakefulness during the day at that point
-you have locked in your monophasic
-pattern and that will continue
-throughout adulthood and into old age
-with a few caveats that we'll speak
-about so that's how sleep sleep unfolds
-in the monophasic biphasic polyphasic
-sleep across the lifespan it doesn't
-quite tell you however how those
-different stages of sleep change across
-the lifespan so I've shown you the view
-of sleep across the lifespan through one
-lens of the microscope if we click down
-one lens and focus more deeply on the
-different stages of sleep there we see a
-fascinating
-story in uo for the most part you are in
-a sleep likee State as a fetus once you
-get to a certain point of
-development in utero that sleep-like
-state seems to be more so something that
-looks like REM sleep now it's not fully
-fledged full fat REM sleep yet but it
-seems to be something very much like REM
-sleep I say this because in the first
-episode I told you as we go into REM
-sleep
-and we start to as adults dream the
-brain paralyzes the body so that the
-mind can dream safely those kicks and
-those punches and those elbows that uh a
-mother will feel from the fetus seem to
-be during this dream state often and I
-don't want to shatter any illusions of
-you start singing or you're cing and you
-get these bumps and these elbows and
-these legs kicking and it's beautiful it
-is beautiful but it turns out that it's
-probably the REM sleep state but the
-muscle sort of paralysis has not yet
-developed so you're getting these
-electrical burst this frenetic activity
-of REM sleep that we described but
-you're not getting any of the blockade
-of the motor output and so it expresses
-itself as these kicks and these
-bumps and then during the first six
-months of life and at that point in the
-first 6 months those infants are
-sleeping anywhere between 14 to 17 hours
-a day that's it's immense isn't it I
-mean it's right up there if you look
-across the across philogyny and you ask
-which is by the way a fascinating Topic
-at some point we should do a a separate
-podcast on sleep across different
-species because I know like me you love
-you know the whole variety of sweet but
-you've got elephants who will sleep as
-little as 4 hours and then you've got
-the little brown bat who is the rock
-star of sleep and it will sleep sleep
-almost 17 to 18 hours a day it nudges
-out the sloth in that sense wow can I
-ask you a question about that little
-brown P yeah does it sleep hanging
-upside down does so it can't have sleep
-paralysis in its little claws so it it
-will it will not have that paralysis but
-it goes through the stages of sleep very
-quickly and this happens with birds as
-well so birds that flock on a branch
-they will sleep and they sleep in some
-fascinating ways what some sometimes
-with one half of the brain sometimes
-with both halves but then you say well
-if I'm on a branch and there's this
-wonderful Force called gravity
-underneath me and I go into REM sleep
-and I have that muscle paralysis which
-they do how does that work well they
-only have very brief REM sleep periods
-that last just for a few seconds and
-then they regain their muscle tone got
-it couldn't couldn't help but ask it's
-genius the Flora and the fauna I
-especially that the fauna um enchant me
-that much so I don't want to draw us off
-course but now we know that they they
-can that's why the bats don't fall
-that's why the birds Don't Fall correct
-um so when you are then as an infant
-sleeping 14 to 17 hours what's happening
-with those different stages of sleep
-non-rem and REM at that point we can't
-really Define and separate the different
-stages of non-r because it's not yet
-fully formed but we have what looks like
-a REM sleep active State and a a deep
-non-rem sleep passive state almost 50%
-of the time that an infant a newborn is
-asleep is spent in REM sleep why do I
-say that with some kind of wonder in my
-voice because as adults we're perhaps
-down to maybe 20% of our time spent
-asleep is in REM sleep but 50% of the
-time when an infant is asleep they are
-in rem why would this be the case and
-across all species that have REM and
-non-rem the time when we see REM sleep
-in highest volume amount is always after
-birth there is something special about
-REM sleep and its function during that
-early period and we now start to
-understand why when you are first born
-you are still going through a huge
-amount of brain
-maturation and the recipe for the day
-there unlike when we are teenagers is
-exploding the brain with synapses all of
-these connections throughout the brain
-what we've discovered is that REM sleep
-acts as an electrical fertilizer to
-stimulate the growth of these
-connections within the brain it's almost
-as though you could think about an
-internet service provider with this huge
-new neighborhood and the first call of
-business is to go in and wire up each
-one of those homes with these Fiber
-Optic Cables that's what REM sleep is
-doing and if you start to deprive and
-these were studies gosh done many years
-ago by Howard rthor and others if you
-deprive animals of REM sleep you stunt
-the developmental growth of the brain
-and presumably the whole animal and the
-yeah as a consequence I mean if you look
-at its social behavior even just that
-it's profoundly abnormal because you
-don't have that REM sleep developed
-brain I mention this not because there
-is any causal evidence but we have seen
-REM sleep deep impairments in certain
-developmental
-disorders such as autism as well as ADHD
-I don't think there is any supportive
-evidence yet to come out with a claim
-that part of the trajectory underlying
-those conditions is abnormalities of REM
-sleep but I it's a very active area of
-research so it's a fascinating time
-though during infancy when you get these
-huge amounts of REM sleep why because of
-what we call synaptogenesis is which is
-simply the creation of sinapsis
-Genesis then as you move from 6 months
-across the next 18 months something odd
-happens Total Sleep time starts to
-decrease REM sleep starts to decrease
-but non-rem sleep actually increases
-even though Total Sleep time is
-decreasing and there's a strange peak in
-lighter stage nonrem what we call stage
-two nonr and those sleep spindles that I
-was describing in the first episode
-These bursts of electrical
-activity we will speak about the role of
-those sleep spindles in improving motor
-skill learning and we've done a many
-many years of work in this area why is
-that relevant to this phase of life
-that's right around the time when
-infants start to coordinate their limbs
-in a skilled way and begin to walk and
-we believe that it is part of the
-process of the development of the motor
-system enabling walking to begin amazing
-so then things will change further sleep
-time continues to decrease and by about
-age five or six now the cocktail blend
-of nonrem and REM is down to a stable
-ratio that will remain throughout the
-lifespan which is a 4:1 ratio so about
-20% of the time that you're asleep will
-be REM sleep and the remaining time time
-will be 80% of that time will be non-rem
-sleeping provided one is getting
-sufficient total amounts of sleep
-correct and getting it at the right
-moments in time that we described in the
-first episode getting that sort of that
-appropriate chronotype match to the
-24-hour clock that will certainly alter
-those things too so that's how sleep
-unfolds both at the first level of the
-lens monophasic basic polyphasic and
-then double clicking how the different
-stages of sleep unfold and what the
-reasons are behind that I then said once
-we're adults we become
-monophasic yes to a degree but there is
-some contention about the way that we
-sleep in modernity that we may not be
-sleeping in the way that we were
-designed to sleep which brings us back
-to basic sleep in the first episode we
-spoke about this strange after afternoon
-dip in our alertness that happens called
-the postprandial dip and it happens
-somewhere between the 1 to 4:00 p.m.
-region and it's measurable and it seems
-to be biologically wired into
-us if you look at certain cultures that
-are not touched by modernity so we and
-others have studied studied hunter
-gatherer tribes they don't quite sleep
-the way that we do and they don't sleep
-the way that we do for at least two
-reasons the first is that they will
-often have a siesta like pattern of
-behavior where especially in the hot dry
-season they will take a nap in the
-afternoon in the wet cooler season that
-may not be the case but they certainly
-have more of a basic pattern where
-they'll sleep longer at night and then
-have a short nap Siesta like and then of
-course there are Latin and Mediterranean
-cultures and they have this practice of
-the Siesta like Behavior coming back to
-the hunter gather tribes the way that
-they also do not sleep in a similar
-manner to that which we do is the timing
-of sleep they don't go to sleep as the
-sun goes down they will usually on
-average as a group they will usually go
-to sleep about 2 hours after Sundown and
-then they will wake up not with the
-rising of the sun they wake up just
-before that and you think how are they
-predictive of the light no the thing
-that changes first before the sun truly
-Rises is
-temperature and temperature is a very
-strong predictor that forces them
-awake so when you think about how
-they're sleeping then consider the term
-midnight most of us never really think
-about what the term means midnight
-refers to the fact that it is the middle
-of the night but for most of us in the
-modern world that's the time when we're
-thinking about sending our last email or
-posting to social media midnight is no
-longer midnight for society but it is
-for them so should we be thinking about
-midnight as the middle of the night in
-the context of the uh extreme early
-person morning person who you know
-presumably likes to go to bed around
-8:00 P.M wake up around 4:00 a.m. most
-people hear 4:00 a.m. and they go oh
-goodness you know that's early sort of
-um you know like the the mighty Joo
-willink is is uh famous for posting
-images of his of his uh digital watch
-usually I think it's 4:30 a.m. wake up
-and that's when he starts his workout so
-his Twitter and I guess they call X now
-feed and and Instagram is a replete with
-images of his watch 4:30 and people
-think goodness that's early right but he
-was a guest on this podcast spoken to
-him before but he goes to bed pretty
-early that's right most nights so in
-some sense you know midnight for him or
-for somebody with a similar schedule is
-truly middle of the night that's right
-right but for the other chronotypes for
-people that uh prefer to go to sleep or
-who naturally um get sleepy around 10 or
-11 p.m. or even later um how should they
-think about this biphasic polyphasic
-business because um at at some level um
-we all have to
-reconcile uh our sleep schedule with the
-with the demands of work and family and
-so on that's right so I was very
-specific when I said the hunter gather
-of tribes on average that's the way that
-they will sleep but like the rest of
-society there's a huge distribution and
-there will be some proportion of them
-who are a little bit like Joo who will
-be on the early side of that on the very
-early side of that but then there are
-other people who are clear night owls
-and they may not be going to bed until
-you know 10: or 11: and waking up
-later so there is a distribution there
-you don't have to worry that my
-statement of midnight on average that
-does seem to be when we are dislocated
-from all of the trappings of modernity
-how a group of Representative humans on
-average will sleep but there is huge as
-I said differences from one individual
-to the next by the way you can ask the
-question why do we have these things
-called chronotypes why is there such
-variability in how people have a
-preference for when they sleep wouldn't
-it just be easier if
-biology designed us all to be asleep at
-the same time not so we mentioned in the
-first episode that sleep is truly
-idiotic in the sense that you know
-you're not protecting yourself or the
-people that you care about and if
-everyone slept at the same moment in
-time you as a collective and as an
-individual would be vulnerable for an 8
-hour period 7 to n hour period but by
-way of this wonderful injection of
-variability as to preferences for when
-people sleep maybe there are some people
-who are going to bed at 8:00 p.m. and
-there are other people and they're
-waking up at 4: a.m. there are other
-people who go to bed at midnight and
-wake up at 8:00 a.m. so then think about
-that at some point what you've done is
-that there will always be someone or
-collection of people awake until
-midnight and then will always be a
-collection of people who are awake
-starting at 4:00 a.m.
-so as an individual everyone gets their
-8-hour opportunity but as a collective
-as a clan you are you've reduced your
-vulnerability down by 50% because Mother
-Nature injected the variability by way
-of genetics of chronotype to distribute
-that and lessen the burden does that
-make any sense it does and it reminds me
-of how the Circadian rhythm which we
-discussed in episode one is about 24
-hours not exactly 24 hours the rhythm of
-the supermatic nucleus neurons that
-generate the Circadian rhythm as I
-recall uh is rarely exactly 24 hours
-it's 24.2 or 24.4 and the idea in mind
-the just so story uh is that that
-variation allows for entrainment
-matching to the outside light dark cycle
-which changes across the year so you
-don't want it rigidly 24 hours because
-if there's any variation in light dark
-which of course there is you know even
-at the equator across the year there's
-subtle variations but certainly As you
-move away from the equator and so these
-these uh variations in you know your
-circadian rhythm uh clock scn supermatic
-nucleus might be 24.2 mine might be 24.6
-24 someone else
-24.1 and in that sense um allows some uh
-malleability to to matching the
-Circadian rhythm to outside light dark
-rhythms is that is that a a decent
-parallel for what we're talking about
-it's a beautiful demonstration that
-there is always some it's almost wiggle
-room in how biology is programmed
-because some degree of sort of noise
-almost sarcastic noise can be very
-beneficial and it's much more predictive
-of the way in which the world works and
-it's much more adaptive for a species to
-enact and to embrace that kind of
-variability and yours was a beautiful
-example
-that it's about 24 hours but it's
-certainly responsive to changes in light
-duration across the year and it has to
-be because we need to buckle ourselves
-to the light dark cycle for optimal
-survival and here is another
-demonstration of where it's not about
-the Cadian Rhythm but it's about the
-chronotype distribution not within an
-individual across the year but across
-individuals at any one moment in time
-and that variability once again provides
-a biological
-benefit in the first episode and again
-now you're discussing chronotypes and
-one one thing that I've been meaning to
-ask is you said that chronotype is
-genetically determined but that
-necessarily mean it is directly
-inherited from Mom Andor dad meaning if
-your parents are both extreme early
-morning types will you grow up to be an
-extreme early morning type you already
-established that during infancy and
-development uh adolescence Etc that our
-chronotype is somewhat masked by some of
-the developmental uh um uh Necessities
-um but once we reach young adulthood and
-and our chronotype has been established
-uh can we look to our parents to
-determine whether or not we are more
-likely to be in morning person or or
-late shifted it's very unlikely to find
-find anyone whose parents were both
-extreme morning types who is a neutral
-or an evening type and vice versa so my
-guess is that people with if they know
-of their biological parents and they
-know of their rhythms it's highly likely
-that you will at some point acquas in
-your lifetime to being very similar to
-them now there are certain life
-conditions and contexts where you can
-you know fight that um if you're really
-into you know if you're someone who is
-in punk rock band and you're touring all
-the time even though your mom and dad
-may be morning types and you may be a
-morning type you're on the road you're
-playing gigs there's no chance but at
-some point let's say you retire and you
-give yourself the opportunity to express
-your natural Rhythm you will go back to
-that so yes it's highly genetic it's not
-enre highly genetic there is some degree
-of modification that happens on the
-basis of context and I've just given you
-a good example of context and also your
-exposure to light you can be someone who
-is let's say a neutral like me but if
-you're constantly invaded by Electric
-Light at night you're drinking too much
-caffeine and you're on your laptop and
-your computer and your phone and you're
-always activated by social media it's
-very easy for someone like me to drift
-and become a 1 a.m. to you know 9 a.m.
-person that's not my natural type but
-context and the environment have shifted
-me but for the most part yes to your
-question I'd like to take a brief break
-and acknowledge our sponsor ag1 ag1 is a
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-huberman okay so getting back to these
-different uh phase opportunities for
-Sleep uh clearly I'm getting the
-language wrong here but vacular
-monophasic basic and polyphasic um could
-you give us a few more examples of
-different types of biphasic and
-polyphasic sleep so coming back to basic
-sleep I describe one version once we are
-adults which is the Siesta like notion
-one long bout at night short bout during
-the day and that bout during the day is
-usually matching that drop in alertness
-that we described it sort of hits that
-sweet spot right there and it's quite
-easy for some people to fall asleep in a
-period between somewhere between one and
-four 1 to four yeah and I know it's a
-large window but that just allows us to
-sort of know okay if you're someone like
-yourself who's a morning type you would
-probably start to want to nap a little
-bit earli or if you were basic someone
-like me a neutral probably an hour and a
-half two hours later still
-but there is a different version of
-basic sleep for adults that has been
-described in the literature and it's
-fascinating but I don't think it's
-biological it's the notion that some
-people will have heard called first
-sleep second sleep and now you are
-splitting your sleep into two phases but
-they're split across the night so the
-idea is that you fall asleep and you'll
-maybe have 4ish hours and then you wake
-up and you then are awake for several
-hours and then you go back to sleep for
-another 3 or 4
-hours if you look in history and the the
-record of of human history it's very
-clear that there were some cultures
-doing this particularly if you look at
-some of the European cultures Great
-Britain in particular there is good
-evidence that somewhere between about
-the 15th to 19th century seems to have
-ended during the kind of dezian
-era people were describing this behavior
-and they would wake up in the middle of
-the night after about 4 hours they would
-make food they would play music they
-would write they would make love it was
-a real thing and I'm not suggesting that
-it did not happen it clearly did and
-there's a there a great book that
-outlines this but is it the way that we
-were designed to sleep bif phasically
-versus the Siesta like and I don't think
-it is there is no good collection of
-evidence if you look at the biology of
-our human rhythms that argues that there
-is this magical period of a huge spike
-in Arcadian Rhythm that happens right in
-the middle of the night that should
-force us
-awake there is one paper that's often
-cited for this and in truth that paper
-if you read it says nothing about first
-sleep second sleep doesn't speak about
-basic sleep at all
-and that paper I think is unfairly used
-as a justification of first sleep and
-second sleep and the paper to me has at
-least three problem it's a great paper
-there's no no problem with the paper and
-its hypothesis but its use as
-justification for first sleep second
-sleep has three
-problems the first is the artificial
-nature of the study they weren't
-designing it to test the hypothesis but
-they had individuals in bed for 14 hours
-relative to a standard 8 hour period and
-sure enough what they found was that
-when you force people night after night
-to be in bed for 14 hours somewhere
-after about 6 or 7 hours they wake up
-and then you can't get out of bed in the
-study so you just lie awake and then at
-some point I don't know if it's through
-boredom or you drift back off into sleep
-and that was argued as a clear
-demonstration of this split sleep but as
-I said they're awake usually for about
-six and a half seven
-hours also there was no magical
-Awakening period it's a probability
-distribution and what that means is if
-you look at the data it's just more
-likely that people will wake up after
-about 6 or seven hours and they're more
-likely that they will go back down into
-sleep it wasn't as though the whole
-experiment demonstrated a very clear
-termination of sleep that everyone had
-at that moment in time so that's the
-first
-issue um and the second issue which is
-first issue it's kind of an abnormal
-thing 14 hours forced in bed the second
-is it wasn't a clear separation it's
-just simply higher probability the final
-issue is that it was a study done in
-only seven individuals healthy males and
-so I have yet to see it you know scaled
-up did it happen first sleep second
-sleep yes it did is there any strong
-evidence that that's how we naturally
-were designed and have evolved to sleep
-I in truth I don't think so at least I
-don't see good evidence right now
-supporting that but remain open to it in
-episode one we talked a little bit about
-body position during sleep uh and how
-different uh degrees of uh incline or
-decline might impact uh some of the
-features of sleep and I can't help but
-ask now as you uh described this basic
-pattern for people that were essentially
-experimentally restricted to to the bed
-um is there something about being
-horizontal that makes us
-sleepy there is and it's perhaps not for
-the reasons that you would think which
-is okay I'm just pre-programmed when I
-lie down and my head hits the pillow it
-turns out that it seems to be
-temperature that when your body is
-recumbent lying flat
-horizontal the distribution of how your
-body is able to move blood around the
-different regions and decrease your core
-body temperature meaning it can push
-blood warm blood out of the core of your
-body to these surface areas and when you
-push it out to the surface areas you
-release that heat it's this huge thermal
-dissipation that happens when we move
-Blood Out Of The Core to the surface you
-emit that heat and your core body
-temperature plummets when your body
-temperature your core body temperature
-decreases you have a higher likelihood
-of sleepiness in fact it's very
-difficult for you to fall asleep if your
-core body temperature does not drop and
-by lying down the body's what we call
-vasoactive ability to distribute that
-blood in a way that is permissive for
-thermal dissipation of core body
-temperature is superior and that's the
-reason why we find it easier to fall
-asleep lying down than let's say
-semi-recumbent or certainly propped all
-the way up and it's probably the reason
-naturally we evolve just to lie down on
-the floor very
-interesting maybe now is a good time to
-talk
-about basic sleep in the context of a
-about of sleep at night and the
-afternoon nap you've mentioned this
-postp parial dip that most people
-experience between 1: and 400 p.m. that
-many people try and combat with caffeine
-we will also talk about Caffe
-uh this episode um such an interesting
-substance and I think the most commonly
-used drug it is a drug after all
-worldwide I think more than
-90% of adults worldwide consume caffeine
-on a daily basis that's correct and I
-believe it is after oil it may
-be perhaps the second or at least the
-third most traded commodity on this
-planet and it is what we call a
-psychoactive stimulant is a stimulant
-and it's probably one of the only
-stimulants that we will readily give to
-our children and you know not be too
-concerned about it we'll get to caffeine
-in depth uh a little bit later in this
-episode but I can't help but uh just
-mention that someone I think it was
-Michael Polland said that you know
-caffeine is one of the few drugs that
-almost everybody takes just to quote
-unquote feel normal yeah exactly you
-know it's sort of I think sometimes you
-know sleep deprivation is is
-simply just the absence of of caffeine
-and um so it's a very interesting
-chemical which I have in truth changed
-my mind on and I'm happy to speak about
-why I've changed my mind but also some
-God rails too well we'll we'll go there
-meanwhile I'll take a sip of my uh
-Triple Espresso here as we discuss as we
-discuss naps are naps good for us should
-we nap what if we don't like naps why do
-we wake up from naps groggy sometimes
-and other times we feel refreshed tell
-us about
-napping naps are both good and bad
-depending on the situation naps can be a
-double-edged sword in other words we and
-others have done lots of studies on naps
-and the benefits are fascinating and St
-I'll tell you about one study we did we
-had participants assigned to one of two
-groups and at midday they all learned a
-whole list of new facts so it was a
-study about learning in memory and then
-one group took a 90-minute sleep
-opportunity sort of focused right around
-that drop in alertness the other just
-remained awake lying on a bed and they
-just watched a nature
-documentary and then 5 hours later we
-had them do another learning session and
-so they've woken up after the 90-minute
-nap they've got through that sort of
-initial lull that we'll discuss what
-that is after you wake up everyone's now
-back to operating temperature so in
-other words I've had you try to cram in
-a whole list of facts at midday and then
-a whole list of facts new facts again at
-5 p.m. and I can ask what is the
-learning capacity of your brain at
-midday and at 5:00 p.m. and is there any
-difference in your learning ability when
-you have had a nap in between versus not
-and sure enough what happened in the
-group that did not nap their learning
-capacity gradually declined across the
-day the nap group they were able to
-sustain their learning and in fact if
-anything improve it and the difference
-between those two groups at 5:00 p.m.
-was about
-20% so that's certainly non-trivial in
-terms of if you to say you know here's a
-new compound that can boost your
-learning capacity by 20% would you take
-it I suspect it would probably make some
-money so that's a demonstration of for
-learning in memory we did another study
-very much like that in terms of its
-design but we looked at your emotional
-brain and we were showing people
-different types of emotional expressions
-and having them rate them and we did
-that firstly before an appp and then
-after a na versus um that same time in
-sort of midday versus 5:00 p.m. and
-another group did not nap and sure
-enough the group that did not nap
-by about 5:00 p.m. they were starting to
-rate fearful faces and angry faces as
-much more fearful and much more angry
-but if you looked at the group that
-napped it was different they actually
-lessened the response to fear and they
-blunted the normal increase in Anger
-sensitivity across the day and the nap
-seemed to boost how positively you rated
-happy faces
-so a nap there had the ability to reset
-the magnetic north of your emotional
-compass and there was a beneficial
-almost added Rose tint to your world viw
-glasses after You' napped what was also
-interesting in those two studies two
-different types of sleep were
-transacting those benefits in the nap
-group that was doing the learning the
-learning benefit that they got wasn't
-just about them napping and sleeping it
-was about them having these sleep
-spindles the more of those sleep
-spindles that you had the greater the
-restoration of your learning capacity
-when you wake up for the emotional
-recalibration that I described in the
-nap that had nothing to do with sleep
-spindles or even non-rem sleep it
-required REM sleep to produce that
-benefit so there are certainly many
-benefits and we've look downstairs in
-the body blood pressure cardiovascular
-measures immune Health they all seem to
-benefit so at that point everyone may be
-thinking of course this sounds good not
-to mention the basics which is your
-attention your concentration your focus
-and your energy all improve by way of
-naps even your decision- making you said
-decision making yeah even your
-decision-making is improved so your
-capacity to make the correct decisional
-outcomes based on this weight of
-evidence that you're facing that's also
-improved so almost all areas of
-cognition that we've looked at and many
-areas of your emotional and mood Health
-we've looked at seem to benefit by way
-of a nap at that point you're thinking
-so then what's the problem the problem
-is that when you nap you release some of
-that sleep pressure that's been building
-up so in the first episode we spoke
-about a chemical called adenosine and
-the longer that you're awake the more
-adenosine that builds up the more
-adenosine that builds up the sleepy you
-will feel and after about 16 hours of
-being awake you should have lots of
-healthy sleepiness of adenosine in your
-brain to put you asleep and keep you
-asleep and when we sleep we are able to
-clear that adenosine from the brain so
-we wake up after 7 to 9 hours and if
-it's been good quality sleep we're
-refreshed because we've cleansed the
-brain in part of that
-adenosine when you take a
-nap like a pressure valve on a steam
-cooker you just Rel relase some of that
-healthy sleepiness that you've been
-building up so the the Dark Side of
-napping is if you are struggling with
-sleep and you suffer from insomnia the
-advice is do not nap during the day
-because you're setting yourself up for
-an even higher probability of failure at
-night why because when you nap you
-release some of that good sleepiness
-that we need to build up for you as
-someone who is struggling with sleep to
-give you the greatest chance of awai of
-sleepiness on your
-shoulders so if you are not struggling
-with sleep and you can nap regularly I
-would say naps are just fine and we can
-unpack what is an optimal nap and the
-protocol for what napping should
-be I would say that's great the only
-caveat is make sure that you're not
-napping too late into the day and this
-is one of the components of the protocol
-of how to nap because napping late in
-the day is too close to sleep and you
-can think of it almost like snacking
-before your main meal a nap late in the
-day just takes the appetite edge off
-your sleepiness so that when it comes
-time for sleep you're not as hungry
-anymore so just keep that in mind but we
-can unpack perhaps the optimal way to
-nap if you are going to nap and exactly
-the dos and the don'ts of that if that
-sounds of somewhat interest yeah that is
-uh of immen interest to me and I know
-many other people I'm a huge believer in
-naps I've always enjoyed um short naps
-of about 10 to 30 minutes unless I'm
-somehow sleep deprived in which case I
-will sleep for an hour or even a little
-bit more but I make sure I set an alarm
-U really based on advice that you gave
-me which was to um first of all decide
-whether or not a nap is beneficial for
-for for me or for whoever is considering
-that um but then to make sure that
-however long that nap is zero to 90
-minutes that it not be longer than 90
-minutes because the real goal is to not
-disrupt nighttime sleep that's right
-which is essentially just a a more
-long-winded way of saying what you just
-said so how does one determine the
-optimal duration of nap um and in
-particular to avoid the problem of
-disrupting nighttime sleep by napping
-but also this uh rather common
-phenomenon of waking up and feeling kind
-of groggy or even I'm kind of grumpy the
-post-nap face uh or we should call the
-post-nap expression
-right right the P NE what's your P are
-do you wake up um in the and for morning
-too some people wake up and they're like
-that that face and then there's the like
-good morning you know and I think people
-that wake up with the good morning are
-particularly delightful unless you're of
-the post Snap expression that is kind of
-the the crumpled face and then you just
-you don't want to be around those people
-right no absolutely
-um yeah and this probably relates to
-spirit animals and things like that some
-people wake up like a like a cheerful
-chipmunk and other people seem to wake
-up like my Bulldog Costello where it's
-you know um jowls still in contact with
-the floor yeah so um P I'm trying to
-hold it together and not Absol just fall
-apart it's brilliant please trademarket
-so firstly to your question how to
-optimally nap the word optimal is
-interesting because
-when you people say how long should I
-nap what's the optimal nap duration the
-question I have back to them is what are
-you trying to optimize because once I
-understand what you're trying to
-optimize I can give you a better
-prescription non-medical I'm talking
-about here the a better sort of you know
-protocol piece of advice for how to nap
-I mentioned the study about emotional
-faces in part for a specific reason cuz
-I told you there the benefit came by way
-not of non REM sleep but REM sleep and
-in our first episode we said that when
-you go through these on average 90minut
-Cycles you get most of your non-rem
-sleep first and then you'll have this
-bout of REM sleep at the end and it
-always seems to go that way when you are
-a healthy normal person you go into
-non-rem sleep and then you go into REM
-sleep it's very rare that you ever go
-directly into REM sleep there are only
-two reasons when that seems to happen
-the first is a clinical condition called
-noopsy where you can have sleep onset
-REM sleep and very rare the second is if
-you are horrifically deprived of REM
-sleep night after night after night and
-I let you sleep then at that point REM
-sleep the pressure for REM sleep has
-been built to to the point of being
-almost just insatiable and your brain
-goes straight into REM sleep but with
-those two things aside you go into
-non-rem sleep first so I brought up the
-emotional study of resetting your sort
-of mood uh compass
-because to get that REM sleep you had to
-nap for a longer period of time because
-you had to get through the non-rem sleep
-first before you get the REM sleep but
-let's come back to then assuming optimal
-is for most people when they speak about
-naps I just want the quick reboot I want
-my alertness and concentration which are
-failing because I'm staring at the
-screen or I just can't concentrate on
-the work that I'm doing I want my
-alertness and my concentration to be
-improved proved I want that sort of
-slight boost in brain energy where I
-know I can sustain myself for now a
-longer period of time and I've got the
-motivation which is really in some ways
-how I like to think about energy as well
-I've got the motivation the drive to
-keep going which is just starting to
-fail me to get those basic things which
-is what most people nap for aim for 20
-minute nap why 20 minutes if I thin
-slice the nap duration and and those
-Studies have been done where we look at
-essentially what's called a dose
-response curve I give you 5 minutes of a
-nap 10 minutes of a nap 15 minutes 20
-minutes 30 minutes 45 minutes 90
-minutes after 5 or 10 minutes you don't
-really get very much you will wake up
-and you'll have some degree of improved
-alertness and your basic reaction time
-may be a little bit quicker but that
-Fades very quickly and you don't sustain
-that
-benefit once you get past about 15 to 17
-minutes now things start to look
-different you get these nice benefits
-for concentrational alertness and
-motivation and those things sustain so
-once you wake up out of that probably
-really I would say 20 minute nap at that
-point you've got some good wind in your
-concentration and energy sales for the
-brain and that will sustain you
-throughout the rest of the afternoon and
-into the
-evening the benefit of the 20-minute nap
-is that you don't get the
-PNE trademark Andrew hubman you don't
-get that almost sleep hangover so some
-people will say it's strange I nap maybe
-I'll nap 45 minutes 50 minutes and I
-wake up and to be honest Matt I almost
-feel worse after the nap than I did
-before and I don't understand it it's
-something called Sleep inertia
-and an extreme version of this is in the
-first two hours of your night of sleep
-you get a phone call or an alarm goes
-off and you wake up and you are just
-kind of lost in the ocean you're looking
-around at your surroundings you're just
-in this groggy State you're half awake
-half asleep and you can respond and you
-can do things but boy does it feel
-miserable and it's almost as though
-you're going from the ground floor right
-up to the penthouse suite but you get
-stuck somewhere in between kind of you
-know floor 13 and it's this rough
-state if you go out into sleep light
-stage one nonrem then stage two nonr and
-just before you get into the very
-deepest stages of non Ram 3 and four
-that starts to happen around 30 to 40
-minutes for most people but by cutting
-your nap off at 20 minutes you still get
-these nice benefits from a good chunk of
-healthy non-rem sleep but you're not
-going so far into the cycle so deep into
-your nonr that when you wake up after 20
-minutes you're not in that what we call
-Sleep inertia phase that sleep
-grogginess that sleep hangover phase so
-it's a nice benefit that you get all of
-these improvements in your brain but you
-wake up and very quickly you're back up
-to operating temperature and you don't
-suffer that inertia now that's not to
-say that when you sleep or you nap
-longer
-you don't start to get more benefits you
-do and those benefits are both greater
-in their magnitude and sustain for a
-longer period of time they do it's just
-that you have to understand the tradeoff
-that you will suffer which is I will get
-more bang for my book and I will get
-more benefits but I will in the first
-sort of hour or so have to understand
-that at that point I may even be
-functioning worse than than that which I
-did before I even started napping but if
-you're patient and you go through it the
-rewards on the other side are
-significantly better still so that's the
-first piece of advice and when it comes
-to how to nap I would say the dose and
-the timing make the poison and poison is
-hyperbole in here it's simply just the
-poison being how much sleep and nurs
-you're going to suffer so aim for about
-20 minutes that's the do the timing
-comes back to that which we described
-before do not nap too late into the day
-so what's the rule of thumb here for a
-protocol on average for the average
-adult I would say don't nap after about
-300 p.m. 20 minute naps sometime between
-300 p.m. and if you're struggling with
-sleep don't do this at all if you're not
-and you're able to get to sleep fine
-this seems to be a good ingredient for
-the basic return on your investment
-again if you tell me what's the optimal
-nap duration we need to have a
-conversation to understand what is it
-that you're going after here what are
-the benefits and then I can sort of you
-know create a finger Buffet Kaleidoscope
-match to what you need and we can think
-about the nap duration as a consequence
-thank you that's very informative um I
-have a colleague at Stanford who's a
-Howard Hughes investigator which for
-those that don't know is a a rather
-elite club of uh academic research they
-have to essentially try out for it they
-can every 5 years they go up for Renewal
-it's it's a lot of money which makes
-gives them a greater capacity to uh take
-on greater risk uh work higher risk work
-um and he's also a member of the
-National Academy and he was one of these
-people that graduated high school at 15
-years of age one of these phenoms and he
-is so religious about his napping such
-that when he travels to give seminars at
-other schools he insists that they
-schedule a nap time for him after lunch
-and in his office um you know at between
-12:30 and and 1: p.m. he's napping
-everyone knows this and um and I mention
-this because I think that um oftentimes
-people think of the Nappers as the lazy
-ones but um his output is um near
-superhuman and he attributes U much of
-that output uh to the nap not just the
-post-nap work that he's able to perform
-but his ability to uh just kind of
-manage so many ideas he has enormous
-laboratory and that's just one example I
-think there are examples from sport of
-um sprinters taking naps on the you know
-on the side of the the track field I
-mean so it seems that a capacity to nap
-is also something worth considering
-because I think many people listening to
-this are thinking well I can't nap
-should I nap you know um and can one
-teach themselves to nap so that's the
-question um if one would want to explore
-napping and um is that something that
-one should even consider doing if you
-don't have a propensity to nap should
-you avoid it if you want to try naps how
-could one teach oneself to nap you just
-mentioned earlier uh lying down uh
-relates to body temperature body
-temperature uh relates to sleepiness and
-then as a third question I promise I'll
-repeat these if we need to uh as a third
-question I'd like to have a little bit
-of a discussion about some of the pseudo
-naap states that um I certainly am
-intrigued by you know for instance just
-lying down and I'm doing a progressive
-bodily relaxation things like Yoga Nidra
-uh non-sleep deep rest which is an
-acronym ioin simply to to um make it
-clear what I was talking about but it's
-very similar to Yoga Nidra um things of
-that sort in other words but simply
-should everyone think about having an
-early to mid-afternoon
-protocol to reset their cognition and
-their body we call it a nap but does it
-have to be a nap and if we're not good
-Nappers should we try and if so how
-should we go about it yeah so TI your
-three questions firstly if you're not a
-natural Napper should you start doing it
-um if you want to start doing it how
-should you do it and then the third is
-is there some kind of you know
-substitute for a like kind which would
-be these Li these I I'd love the
-phraseology that you use these Lial
-states do they mimic that are they
-different to that how should we think
-about those the first thing I would say
-to point number one if you are not a
-natural Napper don't necessarily Force
-yourself to be as long as you're getting
-the sleep that you feel you need at
-night and you feel refreshed and
-restored during the day and you don't
-have that sort of postrenal drop to the
-point of thinking I almost need to nap
-during the day there is no pressure
-based on anything I've been telling you
-for you to start napping nor should
-there be any reason that you do start
-napping but let's say that you want to
-try what would be the right protocol to
-improve and increase the likelihood
-the best way you can do this is to mimic
-nighttime as best you can so wherever
-you are if you can shut off the
-lights make sure that you can block out
-you know curtains blinds if you can't do
-that fully and many people won't be able
-to develop an IM mask procedure um so
-put an IM mask on make sure you block
-out noise earplugs you can use a sound
-machine if you want and we can speak
-about sort of sound machines and whether
-or not they're good or bad on sleep and
-then you can lie down make sure that you
-try to take your shoes off and get under
-some kind of a blanket because we're so
-Contex cued by having something wrapped
-around us called a blanket or a duvet
-that to do it without that if you are
-not a natural Napper can help you again
-that some people will say I can just
-kick my feet up on my desk sit back in
-my reclining chair in the office and I
-can fall asleep that's great but if
-you're not a natural person I'm just
-trying to tell you things that increase
-the probability of that and then set the
-alarm I like your idea of making sure
-that if you do fall asleep you don't
-accidentally go too long and then just
-feel miserable so mimic the conditions
-that you're trying to get that you would
-normally get at night that will increase
-the probability mask out noise mask out
-light kick your shoes off have some kind
-of a blanket wrapping around you that's
-probably the best and then time it based
-on this sort of post pral drop you will
-know yourself everyone has fallen prey
-to it you know W it's usually around
-about 3 4 p.m. that I do start to feel
-this decline or it's around 1 p.m. try
-to match it in accordance with that so
-those are the first I think two
-questions should you not necessarily if
-you would like to and I'm not normally
-doing it how can you do it the final
-point I think is fascinating which is
-these alternate states
-of conscious brain activity the most
-obvious is when we're awake and when
-we're asleep those are the two most
-dramatic changes in Consciousness that
-we experience on a daily basis short of
-anesthesia I've become like you very
-fascinated by these sort of both
-meditative States or these linal states
-I think at some point you and I should
-collaborate and we should do some work
-and really unpack this but the reason I
-find this interesting is because I'm
-going to guess you are having sleep
-likee States but you are not fully
-asleep how would I Define a sleep-like
-state what we've learned is that your
-brain the way it sleeps isn't on mass
-it's not as though your entire brain
-sleeps different territories of your
-brain can sleep in different
-ways and what we've also known and
-there's some argument even individual
-brain cells seem to have a period where
-they go into sleep and these individual
-neurons will start to show what look
-like these beautiful big powerful deep
-slow waves in terms of their firing rate
-at least in terms of those neurons
-firing away I bring this up because if
-that means that your brain can have
-local sleep rather than Global sleep if
-you are in global sleep you're out like
-a light you are a sleep but perhaps
-these Lial States the reason that they
-give these benefits is because you are
-still awake not Global sleep so if
-you're in global sleep you're asleep but
-you're awake so you're not in global
-sleep but you may be having local sleep
-now using special um setups in my
-laboratory we can apply tens maybe
-hundreds of electrodes all over your
-head and we can map the the sort of the
-the different places where your brain is
-having sleep in much higher resolution
-so rather than a you know 480 DPI movie
-on YouTube I'm now in 4K resolution I
-can really dismantle what's going on um
-analytically in your brain I'm going to
-guess that when you're going into these
-states and you report coming out of
-those states and I ask you on a scale of
-1 to 10 how would you rate that as an
-experience based on your common
-experience the greater the intensity of
-the lional benefit and state that you
-experienced I'm going to predict is
-directly related to the extent of this
-this local deep non-rem slow wave sleep
-that's happening you're still awake but
-some parts of your brain for maybe
-seconds of time or maybe even tens of
-seconds of time I'm going to bed will be
-oscillating in what look like slow wave
-sleep deep sleep States and if all I
-would be able to look at is that one
-part of your brain and that small
-cluster of electrodes and someone said
-to me is this person awake or asleep I
-would say oh they're asleep they're in
-deep sleep but then if you slowly reveal
-and back out and show me the rest of the
-brain and what it's doing I would say oh
-my goodness no this person must be awake
-but that local territory that District
-up there in their brain they were having
-slow wave
-sleep I think that's what we could find
-and that may predict some of the
-benefits that you get some of the
-productivity energy benefits by the way
-I should note that with all of this nap
-racket NASA figured this out back in the
-1980s they were looking at ways to
-optimize their astronauts because when
-you are up in orbit depending on what
-orbit you're in you are rotating around
-the planet maybe 10 and 20 times per 24
-hours so you're seeing 10 to you know 20
-sunsets and sunrises so your sleep is a
-total mess and you can safety check
-almost everything in terms of Technology
-but the one weak Link in a space mission
-is this thing called the human being
-that's where errors typically happen so
-how do you drisk a human error up in
-space because if you make an error up
-there I mean on the ground not great up
-there kind of
-catastrophic you can try to optimize
-their ability to sleep and their ability
-to maintain Focus concentration
-alertness and productivity and what they
-found was that these naps produced
-almost a 20% boost in short naaps 20%
-boost in their alertness and almost a
-50% boost in their task productivity and
-it was so powerful that it translated to
-the terrestrial um employees of NASA on
-the ground and it became what was known
-as the NASA nap
-culture and from there on we had what we
-called power naaps Power naaps by the
-way why are they called power naaps and
-you think well just because it Powers me
-up it's a good idea but it's wrong it
-has a very specific story a fascinating
-one two legends in my field David dingis
-uh and Mark Rose kind they were looking
-at how to instigate
-risk mitigation not in astronauts but in
-pilots who are doing long haul
-flights because the most dangerous
-aspect of a long haul flight is when it
-is coming down to land and that's when
-they can sometimes have these things
-called a catastrophic hole loss which is
-a euphemistic phrase for a terrible
-plane crash and they were trying to say
-how could you use nap
-strategically to drisk that and improve
-their
-alertness and they asked a very
-interesting question if they can nap for
-only a certain period of time because
-they have to be at work on the plane at
-the for the rest of it when should you
-place that nap should you do it at the
-start of the long call flight in the
-middle or towards the end and most
-people would bet like they I think did
-it's best to place it at the end when
-you're really starting to struggle get
-that boost and then you wake up you're
-not in sleep in OA cuz it's been brief
-and then you're energized for landing
-they didn't find that they found that
-the most optimal time to nap was early
-on in that long haul flight and it
-sustained them throughout the rest of
-the flight now they took their findings
-to the FAA who were funding the work um
-and the Federal Aviation Authority here
-in the United States and they said we've
-got some great findings and we think we
-should implement this and we would like
-to use a term to help Pilots understand
-this and it's called prophylactic
-napping and of course there were many
-Chuckles throughout the room perhaps
-inappropriate and they just said look
-you've got to understand our Pilots the
-you know kind of alpha male guys and if
-you're starting to say you need to
-prophylactically NAB it's not going to
-be adopted that's a nogo so they looked
-around the room because it's an alpha
-male culture it's a mostly masculine
-culture at that time they said what
-could we and there's a lot of beard
-stroking and they said I've got it power
-naaps it's got to be about power and so
-that is where if you've ever wondered
-where the term power naaps come from
-it's not because it reboosts your power
-which it does and boost it back up it's
-because there was Chuckles at the time
-prophylactic napping I'd like to take a
-brief break and acknowledge our sponsor
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-when I travel to hotels or airbnbs I
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-huberman the naming of things fascinates
-me especially in um the uh landscape of
-health and well-being um also um and
-that's one reason why um having become a
-real fan and practitioner of Yoga Nidra
-which I think translates to yoga sleep
-which is this process of lying down for
-a period of 30 to 60 Minutes Progressive
-relaxation this is these are scripts
-that are readily available as this is a
-a uh age-old practice um in in India um
-that is meant to restore mental and
-physical Vig Vigor by placing one into
-one of these Lial States the um and I
-have great respect for the uh ner
-tradition um but um sometimes the names
-are a separator so people who hear Yoga
-Nidra and they think oh it must be yoga
-movement and that's of course not true
-or they think um that there must be some
-mystical component to it which is not
-necessarily true sometimes they include
-intentions and things like that but
-often not so that's why I coin this um
-uh phrase non-sleep deep rest which is
-essentially maintains the
-critical components of Yoga Nidra um but
-doesn't include intentions and um has
-these shorter uh 10 or 20 minute um
-protocols so it'd be um great fun and um
-I think very interesting for us to do
-that project to explore what are the
-brains uh activation States or
-deactivation States as the case may be
-in these um non-traditional or Lial
-State uh practices now um along the
-lines of power napping specifically and
-the naming of power napping I think it's
-more than than just a a um anecdote
-because I think it is very important for
-people to understand that um that these
-protocols these tools that NASA and that
-Laboratories have have developed um
-often times are are for other purposes
-but they translate to a kind of broader
-significance and what I'm hearing and
-what I'm starting to integrate as we
-have today's conversation is that it
-seems that there is pretty good reason
-to ex at least explore basic sleep right
-that that for the non-nappers to to
-really think about whether or not they
-would like to explore napping as you
-mentioned they don't have to and then
-for people who are already um napping to
-really think about the placement of that
-nap uh within the day and the duration
-of that nap what you told us a few
-moments ago suggests that I should be
-doing or anyone that's doing naps or
-entering these Lial States like nsdr
-might want to shift them a little bit
-earlier than uh the period in which they
-first become sleepy to take that nap is
-that right I mean like so for instance
-should I do as my colleague and you know
-finish lunch and and lie down for 10 15
-minutes um rather than wait until 2 or 3
-p.m. is that is that something that that
-could make a meaningful difference I
-think it could and I think it really
-again depends on how much of a struggle
-sleep becomes in the evening for you if
-it is becoming the later that you nap if
-your sleep becomes either a more
-difficult to initiate in the evening or
-maybe you don't have any problems
-falling asleep but for some reason when
-I look back I'm now starting to wake up
-more throughout the night that in part
-again it's not just that if you nap late
-in the day you struggle to fall asleep
-you may not the other consequence that
-can happen which is non-mutually
-exclusive is that you then stay in not
-as deep as sleep and your sleep is more
-some more fragile in that sense so the
-probability that you will wake up
-because because you had the nap so late
-in the day is higher in the middle of
-the night and then when you wake up like
-many of us do and you go to the restroom
-or It's Perfectly Natural but the speed
-with which you can then fall back asleep
-is compromised why because you've
-jettisoned some of that sleepiness by
-way of the nap and there isn't as much
-to take you back down into sleep after
-you've woken up so I would just say that
-if you are seeing that pattern that the
-later napping that you're doing if
-you're doing that and again there's no
-reason that you need to nap only if you
-choose to nap if that's the case then
-consider not necessarily obviating the
-nap that may not be required just bring
-it back earlier take it after lunch see
-how things work out do the experiment
-and when you do the experiment make sure
-that you do what I would describe as the
-onof on experiment which is where you're
-napping as you normally do and you've
-noticed perhaps some problems with your
-sleep then do so that's sort of the the
-well it's sort of the on off on phase so
-then change your nap protocol and move
-it earlier so now you've Switched Off
-Your Standard protocol and you've moved
-on to something different so you're on
-your standard protocol and then you come
-off it and when you come off it meaning
-you go to an earlier nap and you say
-gosh things do seem to be better maybe
-he he had something there and it does
-seem to
-improve good but I don't trust that
-because maybe it's just a placebo effect
-that you you know hear some dulit
-British tones and you get convinced that
-maybe that would work and you've now
-instead after about two weeks of doing
-that and things have improved go back to
-your original schedule go back on to
-your original protocol I'm not as
-interested about the fact that things
-got better when we changed it I'm
-interested in the question do things get
-worse when we stop it and so when we
-stop the intervention if things got
-worse again now I'm I'm believing it a
-lot more so just as a tip if you are a
-self- tinkerer and you don't have to do
-that but if you're idiotic like me and a
-scientist and you want to do it with
-this city riger that's the way I would
-suggest doing it I don't think it's
-idiotic at all I think it's systematic
-and what you just described is uh both a
-negative control and a positive control
-experiment so you're you are a scientist
-through and
-through are there any individuals that
-should absolutely avoid napping you know
-I'm heard lore of you know um elderly
-folks um folks with certain conditions
-um you know can't imagine um which but
-um I'm sure you'll tell us that for whom
-napping is harmful to their health it's
-a very I think interesting question
-because the strongest evidence comes
-back to that which we we've mentioned
-before which is insomnia and really the
-recommendation there is just avoid naps
-it's and what's problematic about
-insomnia when you are having such tough
-times with sleep at night and you are
-just dragging through the day it is
-miserable and I am you know I I'm very
-protective of my sleep um for the most
-part I
-sleep pretty well but I've I'm I'm not
-immune to the vagaries of sleep I've had
-two bouts of insomnia throughout my life
-both have been what we call reactive
-insomnia reactive to an event or
-something happening and I know how just
-desperate and hungry you are for sleep
-and if it's happening week after week
-month after month I'll just do anything
-to get sleep when I can and the
-Temptation therefore to nap when you are
-suffering from insomnia is that much
-higher and therefore the advice is that
-much harder to adopt but trust me that
-is one of the components that we have in
-the psychological treatment bucket that
-we use for insomnia which is called
-cognitive behavioral therapy for
-insomnia or cbti for short and you can
-just look it up or um on my own podcast
-I done a six-part series on on uh
-insomnia so I would say try to back away
-in that circumstance but you brought up
-a another example which is in aging
-there I think the evidence is a little
-less causal so you have to be more
-cautious about recommending the absence
-as I was with insomnia of abstaining
-from naps but the data has now become
-quite strong that when you get past
-about 65 years old and you look at
-napping behavior in large
-epidemiological studies and you say is
-there a positive benefit in aging for
-napping or is there no benefit at all
-and they looked at that because they
-thought well that perhaps based on the
-work in healthy adults that I've
-described that would be good for older
-adults not only did they find that it
-wasn't good they found that it was
-deleterious that napping in older adults
-was predictive of worse Health outcomes
-and it also seemed to predict a higher
-likelihood of early
-mortality so at this point we're
-thinking well how does that fit with
-everything you've been telling us it
-comes back to this notion of bad sleep
-at night it's probably not necessarily
-that napping during the day is bad for
-older
-adults it's that the Naps reflect a
-problem with the night of sleep for
-older adults and as we get older
-something I didn't mention during
-development was that yes we get this
-sort of State Lael ratio of 4 to1 of one
-part REM sleep four parts non-rem in our
-7 to9 hours and I described these
-changes in rem early in development I
-didn't mention two things about non-rem
-slow wave activity first as we go into
-our teenage years and we shift our sort
-of timing of sleep where we want to go
-to bed later and wake up later that's
-biologically determined it's not
-teenagers fault something happens with
-their deep sleep however their deep
-sleep starts to do a
-different or different action to the
-brain that REM sleep was doing as an
-infant I said that during infancy we
-have huge amounts of REM sleep and were
-growing sinapsis syap Genesis and we
-wiring up all of those new territories
-all of these new neighborhoods with
-fiberoptic cable but let's say that
-you've now run the experiment across
-many years through until teenagehood of
-those neighborhoods and you've been
-measuring the bandwidth consumption of
-each individual house and you've started
-to realize well I wanted to create a big
-spread across the brain and then I'm
-just going to let experience over the
-next years time tell me which parts of
-the brain seem to enjoy that high
-bandwidth and which parts don't seem to
-use it very much and as we go through
-into our teenage years we go through
-something called synaptic pruning where
-the brain actually calls and takes away
-copses from certain parts of the brain
-it seems to be that this change in slow
-wave sleep that happens around these
-adolescent years is performing the act
-of final cortical
-maturation that it's downscaling the
-synapses and fine-tuning the brain so
-you've got this beautiful efficiency and
-now you've throttled back some of the
-bandwidth from some of those
-neighborhoods because they just don't
-use it very much and you can move it
-over into the territories that are
-demanding more bandwidth and net net the
-brain is downscaled but it's improved
-its efficiency in the sense that those
-regions that need it and are working
-hard based on what we think this
-organism has been doing over the past
-you know 13 years that's where we need
-to now place our bets but as we get
-through into our older years and this
-will come back to this issue of napping
-don't
-worry stick with me here folks um the
-reason is that as we're getting older
-our sleep de
-deines but it's not just all sleep
-declines deep sleep declines most
-dramatically and we all think of aging
-from brain perspective as cognitive
-decline that our learning and memory
-abilities begin to fade and Decline and
-they do but I would argue that a
-physiological signature of Aging is that
-your sleep gets worse and particularly
-your deep sleep what's perhaps
-concerning for people listening to this
-right now is that that decline in deep
-Sleep doesn't start happening in your
-60s or your 50s or even your 40s we can
-start to pick up that great sleep
-decline beginning in your mid to late
-30s and then it just decreases and by
-age 50 you are down to about 50% of the
-deep non-rem sleep that you were having
-when you were 17 or 18 by age 65 and
-over or certainly by age 75 you are down
-to about just 5% of the deep sleep that
-you had when you were 17 or 18 which is
-a stunning
-decline what that means comes back to
-the first episode we spoke about the
-four macros of good sleep quantity
-quality timing and regularity one of the
-measures of quality that I described to
-you was this electrical quality of deep
-sleep the other measure of quality sleep
-I spoke about was how consolid ated and
-consistent your sleep is versus how
-fragmented your sleep is the measure of
-Sleep Quality is markedly compromised as
-we get older we're waking up many more
-times our sleep is much more fragmented
-and therefore our sleep efficiency is
-worse and we've got this huge decline in
-our deep non-rm sleep so no wonder then
-when you are awake during the day as an
-older adult Your Sleep Quality is so
-compr promised at that stage you perhaps
-try to compensate by way of napping but
-that compromised quality of sleep that
-you're having at night is probably the
-reason that you start to get sick more
-that you have a higher probability of
-illness and disease and why also you
-probably have a higher risk of premature
-mortality so in other words it's the bad
-quality of sleep at night that leads to
-this behavior that we call daytime
-napping in older adults
-that seems to indirectly suggest oh my
-goodness it's daytime napping that's bad
-and that causes these problems when in
-fact it's that daytime napping is a
-proxy for the bad sleep that's happening
-at night and it's really the bad sleep
-that's happening at night that is more
-directly related to the health and
-mortality concerns in older adults so
-that's why I think right now as a field
-I'm still open to evidence that napping
-for some reason that we just do not
-understand right now is problematic and
-does causally predict worse health and a
-shorter lifespan in older adults I think
-the best evidence that we have right now
-is that it's actually the bad quality of
-sleep at night and thus we should not be
-necessarily jumping to recommendations
-that all older adults should stop
-napping I think we need more evidence
-and I'm open to both sides of that let's
-talk about caffeine uh I've heard the
-ter term is it
-napino yeah I I I think it um refers to
-a practice of drinking some caffeine
-then laying down for a nap and then
-supposedly waking up um feeling more
-refreshed my understanding and you'll
-tell us more of course is that caffeine
-um is effectively uh an adenosine
-antagonist although it's a competitive
-Agonist and you'll explain I'm sure um
-and napping as you mentioned before uh
-removes some of the Sleep pressure AKA
-uh wipes away some of that uh adenosine
-that's accumulated um both of which
-sound great but as you mentioned earlier
-there's a warning there as well uh the
-warning label on uh both those things
-should be that having sufficient
-adenosine built up in your brain is one
-of the ways in which you feel sleepy at
-night and fall asleep and stay asleep
-yeah so what's the story with caffeine
-how does it work uh to make us feel more
-alert and
-um what is the rationale for the
-nappuccino the nappuccino also known as
-the caffeine nap caffeine is a very
-interesting compound in relationship to
-sleep and wake obviously everyone knows
-that caffeine can help you stay awake
-it's no coincidence that those two words
-that you've used about these chemical
-compounds caffeine and adenosine sound
-the same it's because the re receptor
-that or the receptor systems that
-caffeine Targets in your brain are the
-adenosine
-receptors and you think well Matt was
-telling me that the more adenosine that
-builds up in other words the more
-adenosine that's latching onto those
-adenosine receptors in your brain the
-sleepier that you feel and I'm telling
-you that caffeine works on those same
-receptors that doesn't make sense
-caffeine if it's working on those same
-receptors should increase your
-sleepiness it doesn't because it when it
-binds onto those adenosine receptors
-those welcome sites in the brain it
-simply blocks them it doesn't deactivate
-them nor does it activate them it simply
-blocks them so think about it almost a
-little bit like um a room that's full of
-chairs and at some point these adenosine
-which is one collection of people with
-the name badges of adenosine they would
-normally like to come in and start
-sitting down on those seats which are
-the adenosine receptors and as they sit
-down on those seats you're building up
-this signal of sleepiness well caffeine
-which is another group of people with
-caffeine badges they race into the room
-and they start to hijack the seats and
-they start to sit down on them and all
-of a sudden adenosine can't find any
-seats to sit on so your brain is still
-flooding that room with adenosine so the
-adenosine is still building up but the
-reason that you don't feel sleepy
-anymore when you've had a shot of
-caffeine is because caffeine is raced in
-it's latched onto the
-receptors and it has essentially hit the
-mute button on your
-sleepiness so now your brain was
-thinking gosh I've been awake for about
-13 or 14 hours I'm starting to feel it
-I'm just going to take a quick espresso
-shot and you get that you don't think
-well hang on a second you know 20 30
-minutes later I don't feel as tied
-anymore why it's not because caffeine
-came in and removed the adenosine it
-didn't caffeine has come in blocked the
-sights but the the adenosine is still
-building
-up and then at some point the caffeine
-wors off and therefore not only do you
-go back to the same level of Denine of
-adenosine that you did 2 hours ago it's
-that plus the additional 2 hours of
-adenosine that has been building up and
-what you experience is something called
-a caffeine crash and now you need even
-more caffeine not just to get you back
-to where you were but to recover the
-crash that you've had and go
-further caffeine in relationship to the
-caffeine nap though the
-napino is relevant because of its
-timing caffeine has an instigating
-action of around uh 12 14 to 17 minutes
-so when you come through in the morning
-and you grab your first cup of coffee
-and within the first four or five
-minutes you you say I just I just feel
-better I've just had a couple of sips
-I've had half a cup of coffee and I
-already feel better I just needed that
-if it's within the first five minutes
-that you're experiencing that it's got
-nothing to do with the caffeine because
-the peak plasma concentration of your
-caffeine is not going to arrive with you
-until about you know 12 to 17 minutes so
-why do you feel better some of it is
-Placebo because you're smelling the
-coffee and you associate it with the L
-it's really not that though or or um
-when you say Placebo I also wonder
-whether or not it's possibly a a
-conditioned effect you know like a
-pavlovian thing because the smell of the
-coffee the taste of the coffee the the
-hum of the machine the walking into the
-cafe
-to to um and ordering it from the
-Barista also creates an anticipatory
-arousal like here the the alertness is
-coming and in that anticipation there's
-its own form of alertness I think that's
-that's certainly a big component of it
-the other component however if you look
-at the data is that it's got nothing to
-do with the caffeine in that moment it's
-the temperature that most people take
-their caffeine warm either it's tea or
-it's coffee or it's perhaps something
-else that Andrew hubman would drink but
-many people yamate since since I was 5
-years old I don't I don't know if I
-should have been drinking uh caffein
-yerbamate so young maybe even four years
-old there's a photo of me on my
-grandfather's lap drinking out of the
-mate gourd half my family is Argentine
-and um so I was caffeinated from a young
-age this brain developed in a
-caffeinated millu this explains so much
-about what I've known of you over these
-no I'm kidding you um so um but we need
-to speak later no so what's interesting
-about that is it's the
-temperature and I told you in the first
-episode that we need to cool down
-to stay asleep but we need to initially
-warm up to fall asleep because warming
-up at that moment I was telling you is
-warming up at the periphery a warm up to
-cool down to fall asleep so you need to
-warm up to cool down to fall asleep then
-you need to stay cool to stay asleep and
-then you need to warm up to wake up the
-warming up to cool down to fall asleep
-is not warming up in the middle deep
-core of your body it's about warming up
-the hands and the feet and the head to
-dissipate the heat hence warm up the
-outer surfaces to cool down the inner
-core to fall asleep but then I told you
-you have to warm up to wake up and when
-we take a hot drink in the morning
-usually caffeinated the change in your
-core body temperature can happen with
-within a handful of minutes so the
-initial benefit that you get from the
-hot cup of coffee in the morning or hot
-tea is from the temperature rise and
-then you get this beautiful second kick
-from the caffeine itself and that
-caffeine can then sustain for a longer
-period of
-time so we mentioned this problem with
-napping that even at 25 or 30 minutes of
-a nap you wake up with that kind of
-grogginess that sleep
-inertia and what however if I could give
-you the benefits of a nap and have you
-come out of the nap with zero sleep
-inertia and that's what some folks
-started to cleverly think
-about what if I could look at the timing
-of the optimal nap maybe 20 minutes and
-think about the timing of when Peak
-plasma concentration of caffeine emerges
-and I told you really starts to kick
-into gear around 17 minutes and it's in
-full swing by 20 what if I was creative
-I'm going to withhold from saying
-idiotic enough but creative enough to
-get into bed just before I turn the
-light out for my nap in the afternoon I
-Swig a quick
-espresso light goes
-off I close my eyes eye mask earplugs
-and I'm going to drift off fine because
-the the caffeine is not going to kick in
-and for another 17 20 minutes perhaps at
-its full threshold so now you you fall
-in to sleep and you're going down into
-sleep and if you perhaps don't make it
-too large in terms of its serving the
-temperature change is not going to
-affect you in a negative way and then
-just as your alarm clock is about to go
-off after 20 minutes you're on the
-beautiful ascending swing of upward
-plasma concentration of caffeine and you
-get ejected out the other side with both
-the benefits of the nap together with
-the benefits of the caffeine so you get
-your cake and you can eat it too you get
-the nap absent the Sleep inertia and
-hence this created what we call the
-caffeine nap I love it the nappuccino
-the the nappuccino um maybe I'll give it
-a try uh this is the first time I've
-ever heard the um the rationale and the
-the the fine structure of the nappuccino
-but it makes sense um uh at a logical
-and mechanistic level I have to ask is
-there anything besides caffeine and
-sleep that can clear
-adenosine you know can exercise clear
-adenosine can uh cold shower clear
-adenosine I mean and I understand that
-there are a bunch of competing
-mechanisms in the body like presumably a
-spike in norepinephrine or adrenaline or
-both is going to impact the adenosine
-system I I once heard a great quote um
-from a former uh
-member of the National Academy of
-Sciences a brilliant guy he said you
-know a a drug is a substance that when
-injected into an animal or a human
-produces a scientific publication
-meaning meaning it is it is rare to find
-a paper that doesn't see some effect of
-some drug especially on sleep I'm told
-as I recall if you put aspirin REM sleep
-into PubMed you're going to see some
-effect on REM sleep people take aspir
-pretty much any substance that one takes
-is going to to alter um some feature of
-sleep or of wakeful States if one is
-looking with a fine enough uh instrument
-or is that an overstatement no I don't
-think it is an overstatement and it
-comes back to the first episode where we
-described the complexity this incredible
-beautiful physiological ballet certainly
-one of the recommendations when people
-say I get this afternoon this post
-prandy will drop in my alertness what
-can I do I say you could nap but another
-way is just get outside and walk around
-be physically active some of that has to
-do with the fact that you'll probably
-get some daylight and daylight can be a
-stimulator of alertness as long you've
-told us and educated us on we also know
-that physical activity by itself can
-increase the amount of endorphins and
-dorphin and those are wake promoting but
-none of those are really necessarily
-going to be altering adenosine they're
-simply overriding the adenosine that is
-still building up it really does seem to
-be for the most part at least as all
-that I know it's only sleep and
-particularly non-rem sleep that has the
-capacity to or give the brain the chance
-to remove that adenosine now what could
-be interesting I think is two
-circumstances one is where your brain
-becomes less metabolically active for
-another reason and I told you that it's
-not joring it's not as though during
-deep non-rm sleep that there is some
-special pulsing cleansing mechanism for
-adenosine there is a cleansing system
-called the glymphatic system which
-removes the toxic metabolic byproducts
-of the waking day wakefulness in some
-ways is biochemically low-level brain
-damage and sleep is sanitary salvation
-in that regard knew um but which is
-again it's humoristic and it's it's it's
-going too far but it makes a point the
-idea here however is that it's not that
-there is a special system that is
-removing the adenosine during deep nonm
-sleep it's just that your brain is less
-metabolically active and therefore it's
-not producing as much adenosine so the
-natural mechanisms that are always
-occurring in the background to be
-clearing adenosine and degrading it
-simply get the chance to do that just as
-effectively as they have but you're no
-longer working against the opposite tide
-that is growing the adenosine now the
-adenosine increase has dissipated
-because you're no long longer
-metabolically active during deep sleep
-and you get the chance to cleanse it all
-of which is to say therefore that and I
-think that would mimic that such as for
-example anesthesia my guess is that you
-probably do jettison some sleep pressure
-when you are in
-anesthesia I also think that these Lial
-States non sleep deep rest could be a
-fascinating territory there because at
-that point I'm going to guess and we'll
-be able to see with the e G and we may
-also be able to do some Imaging
-depending on how we you and I design the
-study to look at what changes in the
-brain in terms of its activation State
-my guess is that if it does put you into
-something like slow wave activity
-patterns that means that those
-territories of the brain are
-metabolically less active and that
-allows the brain to dissipate the
-adenosine so to your point I don't think
-things like necessarily exercise or
-light change adenosine level
-they do give a nice alertness benefit
-for other reasons but is there an
-alternative way of dissipating adenosine
-yes I think anything that mimics a non
-or a less metabolically active brain
-could produce these beautiful adenosine
-benefits thank you for that this brings
-me to a question about the period
-immediately after waking from the
-nightly bout of sleep um I've been uh
-touting the benefits of delaying one's
-caffeine intake by 90 to 120 minutes
-after waking there's a little bit of a
-misconception out there I think people
-um ran with the ball uh assuming that I
-was mandating this or think or
-suggesting that everyone should do this
-and that's simply not the case uh I
-actually wake up and I'll hydrate and
-drink caffeine very close to waking if
-I'm going to exercise soon after yeah um
-which I often do um but I've experienced
-and I know others um have experienced if
-they are not going to exercise
-immediately or they don't need caffeine
-to exercise for whatever reason I've
-heard these people exist I'm no such M
-mutant um that delaying their caffeine
-intake by 90 to 120 Minutes in some
-cases can offset the afternoon crash now
-I want to be clear some of that may be
-offsetting the afternoon consumption of
-more caffeine because by delaying your
-caffeine intake in the morning then
-perhaps there's less of an incentive or
-requirement to drink caffeine in the
-afternoon and all of which dominoes to
-as we'll talk about more in the series
-to better sleep at night because you
-you're not ingesting caffeine close to
-bedtime but at risk of taking a massive
-tangent here's what I'd like to know
-based on what you just told
-us if
-indeed
-sleep and
-lower metabolic activity in certain
-brain regions can help reduce adenosine
-levels in the
-brain one could imagine that upon
-waking it is either a step function from
-okay you know let's say at um 5:45 a.m.
-somebody is asleep and adenosine is
-still being cleared away because they're
-asleep and then they wake up boom does
-adenosine clearance immediately stop
-well for people who have that um
-crumpled face uh grogginess um and they
-wake up at 5:45 maybe even by way of
-alarm although we don't uh suggest that
-right and they stagger into the kitchen
-and um ordinarily they'd make their cup
-of coffee but they're in a pseudo sleep
-state yeah so it stands to reason that
-they're still clearing adenosine now if
-they are to drink caffeine right away
-then they're as you pointed out going to
-block those adenosine receptors and
-there's going to be a continued buildup
-of adenosine as opposed to a clearance
-of adenosine so this was um part not the
-entire reason but part of the rationale
-for suggesting that people at least
-explore delaying caffeine slightly and
-then there are things like the cortisol
-rise and Etc but um does that kind of
-framework at least make logical sense
-that doesn't mean it would hold up in a
-randomized controlled trial but given
-that we're talking about essentially
-zero risk protocols here um what are
-your thoughts on that I think it is good
-advice for people to test and it's good
-advice for two reasons the first is that
-which you describe in some ways by
-taking caffeine on early and masking
-that
-adenosine also caffeine can make your
-brain more metabolically active which
-means that you're going to build up more
-adenosine during the day which means
-that sleepiness is going to arrive
-earlier which means that perhaps that
-postprandial drop is going to be you
-know harsher and you're going to perhaps
-then need to self-medicate with more
-caffeine to and so goes the Vicious
-Cycle so I think that's one thing to
-keep in mind I think that's one
-hypothesis I think the second hypothesis
-for me or the second reason I would
-advocate for that is if you've been
-using caffeine that way for a long
-period of time you may also be
-masking the quality of your sleep
-because you wake up you immediately
-medicate with caffeine and you are alert
-you're awake and you think well I
-looking back on my night I'm awake now
-after my caffeine and now is the
-important part of that sentence I'm
-awake now so there's nothing wrong with
-my sleep is that true maybe it is maybe
-it's not maybe if you abstain from
-caffeine through and you have to get
-through the detox period it's not going
-to this is not the right test
-immediately but do it for about two
-weeks and then at that point once you're
-free from the detox and the withdrawal
-now you're in a somewhat naive state
-where you're taking your caffeine on I'm
-telling you to stop caffeine you're
-taking it on at 11:00 after you've woken
-up let's say 7:00 in the morning at that
-point we've now got this nice Clear
-Window that has been consistently
-happening between 7 to 11: in the
-morning and I'm going to ask you now do
-you feel rested restored and refreshed
-and can you operate with cognitive
-acumen and
-skill in those first morning hours now
-don't forget we've got to get past the
-natural sleep and Heria period in the
-first 90 minutes but after the first 90
-minutes of waking up absent of caffeine
-let's say by 900 a.m. in the morning are
-you functioning well because if you're
-not and you still think you know what I
-don't feel restored by my sleep I feel
-unrefreshed I want to then start asking
-you let's take a look at your sleep and
-let's see how we can get you to a more
-refreshed state
-and by using caffeine first thing in the
-morning you don't give yourself the
-chance to test whether or not
-subjectively you sense your sleep is
-good quality now you don't need to do
-this forever you can just do a test for
-a month and be asking that question and
-if all is clear after you've got through
-withdrawal and you've got past the first
-90 minutes after waking up and you tell
-me now in this more caffeine naive state
-in the first few hours I feel rest I
-feel refreshed I feel restored by my
-sleep then that's great we don't need to
-be concerned about your sleep so that's
-the second reason I like it because it
-gives you the opportunity to test out
-whether or not your sleep is of good
-quality or not I should also note by the
-way that I mentioned I've changed my
-mind on caffeine and its use and this
-comes back to I just raise it because
-you had said I made this suggestion and
-it wasn't binary it wasn't dictatorial
-you don't have to to do it I wasn't
-saying that everyone needs to do it and
-in fact even I will you know tweak my
-schedule if I'm doing one thing in the
-morning I will take on board caffeine
-fairly soon if I'm not I will hold
-off I came out the gate when I first
-published um a book and it and I was
-very dictatorial about it I and I was
-very mono I was very binary you know it
-was sleep is absolute and it's
-it has to be this way and no other way I
-was not in favor of caffeine and I was
-telling people about the dangers and
-there are dangers to your sleep and we
-we can speak about those but it was a
-little bit too
-heavy-handed I've changed my mind for at
-least two reasons
-first that's not the way Society works
-or people live so there's no amount just
-like technology in saying leave your
-phone outside of the room for 2 hours
-before bed and don't check it for the
-first 4 hours that that Genie is out the
-bottle so the reason I have changed my
-mind on caffeine is because if you look
-at the data on on caffeine it's stunning
-for
-Health it on almost every metric that we
-can measure drinking some degree of
-caffeine is beneficial now there is a I
-knew it there is a U-shaped function to
-this which is once you get past sort of
-three or four cups of coffee then you
-start to go in the downward Direction
-and things aren't so great the
-contradiction however was that I was
-telling people caffeine not good for
-your sleep and sleep by the way is
-wonderful for Health it transacts all of
-these benefits that we have and will
-discuss in this series but then you
-compare that relative to caffeine and
-caffeine transacts many of the same
-health benefits so how can you explain
-that Mr sleep
-scientist well if you look the the data
-is very clear it's not the caffeine
-that's the benefit most people take on
-board caffeine by way of a cup of
-coffee and the Coffee Bean is Pack full
-not just of caffeine it contains a
-whopping dose of
-antioxidants and because of our
-deficient Western diets were so absent
-of these
-antioxidants that the humble cup of
-coffee has been asked to carry the
-Herculean weight of our antioxidant
-needs on its shoulders so no wonder it
-by itself carries such a strong Health
-signal because it's providing you with
-this wonderful dose of antioxidants in
-addition to caffeine case in point if
-you look at decaffeinated coffee you
-still get the antioxidants but now now
-you don't get the caffeine and lo and
-behold you get many of the same health
-benefits it's not the caffeine it's the
-coffee itself so I think that is a a
-perfectly good reason to justify
-caffeine but again just like naps the
-dose and the timing make the poison if
-you're not someone who's sensitive to
-caffeine then having a couple of cups of
-caffeine and trying to step away from
-the use of caffeine I would argue
-somewhere between 10 to 12 hours before
-you expect to go to bed depending on
-your sensitivity and it is different
-across people and we know that it's
-genetic there is a specific um what we
-call polymorphism which just means A
-variation in a particular Gene and if
-you look at variations in that it will
-predict whether you are someone who is
-very sensitive to caffeine or not very
-sensitive to caffeine and it comes down
-to how quickly you can essentially
-metabolically remove that caffeine from
-the system so if you know that you're a
-very sensitive person I would probably
-argue try to stay clear maybe 12 to 14
-hours if you're someone who is not as
-sensitive then you could maybe go to 8
-hours the danger is for people who say
-look I'm one of those people who is you
-know really just not sensitive to
-caffeine at all and I can have an
-espresso with dinner and I fall asleep
-fine I stay asleep fine so it's really
-not a problem for me I would say that
-that that may be true but the inherent
-danger here is that and we've done these
-studies if I give you a dose of let's
-say 200 300 400 milligrams of of
-caffeine in the hours before bed which
-would be a large you know strong cup of
-coffee or you know two espresso with
-dinner some people can fall asleep and
-some people stay asleep but the amount
-of deep sleep that they have is
-compromised in fact it can drop your
-deep sleep by up to 20% now the danger
-is that you wake up in the morning and
-there was no signals in your sleep that
-said you had problematic sleep because
-you're not aware of how much deep sleep
-that you had that's the reason that I
-think you know sleep trackers can be
-helpful in some ways but you then wake
-up and you don't feel as refreshed and
-restored but you don't remember having a
-hard time falling asleep or staying
-asleep but now you find yourself
-reaching for three cups of coffee to
-wake up in the morning rather than the
-standard two and so goes the Vicious
-Cycle
-so and also you see an interesting
-interrelationship we did a recent study
-we just published in Wall Street Traders
-it's not just caffeine use it's also
-about alcohol use in the evening that
-people who overmedicate with caffeine
-during the day they then need something
-to bring them down at night and the
-principal depressant agent and
-depressant not in the sense of
-psychiatric depression but in the sense
-of brain neural activity depression is
-is alcohol so you get this classic cycle
-of uppers and downers I need my uppers
-during the morning my caffeine and I
-need my downers at night to lull me into
-sleep and it's this really interesting
-trade-off which we we saw in these Wall
-Street Traders so coming back to the
-notion of caffeine though I am favorable
-of it in terms of its health benefits I
-think it's very very clear just be
-mindful of the dose and be mindful of
-the timing dose try to not exceed about
-three cups of coffee timing understand
-your sensitivity there are certain
-genetic tests if you really want to get
-nerdy that will tell you if you have
-this sensitivity or not but you will
-probably know it and therefore just say
-okay I'm not that sensitive I could
-probably go 8 hours or as close as 8
-hours before sleep or 10 hours if you're
-very sensitive 14 15 hours and keep it
-to one cup um so those are the ways that
-I would see moderating caffeine and
-changing my my mind on caffeine which
-just comes back to your point where you
-were saying I made this recommendation
-about caffeine I want to make sure I
-modify that so people don't get confused
-I certainly um needed to make a
-modification to my stance on caffeine so
-thank you for letting me say that which
-is a long uh winded way of of getting
-around it but does that help a little
-bit that does help it um very much thank
-you for that um addendum to the
-legislature
-[Laughter]
-okay so you told us about the power nap
-and you've told us about the caffeine
-nap the so-called napino yeah what are
-some other types of naps that can be
-beneficial for Sleep awake cycles and
-alertness so you can think about the
-caffeine nap as trying to amplify it
-sort of a nap plus as it were but to
-your question the study that comes to
-mind there was a brilliant investigation
-Herculean in its study design from a
-great sleep research group out in Japan
-and they asked okay the nap is good the
-caffeine nap may be a little bit better
-but can we go
-further um and so they designed a series
-of studies they had five different
-experimental groups and they tried to
-basically create a stack a stacking
-system they had across the 5 groups
-there was a non naap group that's the
-control then there was a nap group then
-there was a nap plus caffeine group then
-there was a nap Plus Cold face and cold
-handwashing immediately after you wake
-up I'll come back to explain why that we
-think that works and then the final
-group was a group that was a nap plus
-bright light and again thank you uh me
-offering this as the general public to
-you Andrew hubman for for your light
-Revolution so it was bright light at
-2,000 looks immediately afterwards so
-they had five groups again there was no
-nap group nap group nap plus caffeine
-nap plus cold hands and face washing nap
-plus immediate brightlight the cold
-hands and face washing is interesting I
-told you before that there was this
-three-part story to to the sleep wake
-equation that you need to warm up to
-cool down to fall asleep stay cool to
-stay asleep warm up to wake up and I'm
-saying warm up to wake up but use cold
-water on your face and your
-hands don't forget that warming up when
-I say it in the morning is warming up at
-the central core of your body you
-reverse engineer what you did in the
-evening I said warm up to cool down to
-fall asleep so you warm up the periphery
-to release the blood from the core and
-you cool down well the reason that they
-use cold hand and face
-washing was because that's this vascular
-surface it's the place where we can
-modulate temperature quite quickly the
-cold water on the face and the hands
-therefore caused Vaso
-constriction the the vessels and the
-capillaries there they all scrunched up
-and they force the blood back down into
-the core of the body so the core body
-temperature increase a little bit now
-you also get a bit of an adrenaline shot
-when you're splashing very cold water on
-your hands and your face so there's some
-of that too but that's the justification
-so what they find firstly they were
-measuring different aspects of your
-cognition and your mood and your
-sleepiness those were the outcome
-measures to assess how did these five
-different experimental groups change and
-you can imag I mean this is I don't
-think I would ever take on a study where
-I'm doing five nap groups all within one
-study it's bloody amazing so they did
-the nonap group and then compared to the
-nonap group The Nap group got a
-wonderful benefit just as we described
-and they showed benefits in their
-alertness in their cognitive performance
-and also they showed a reduction in
-their sleepiness so Point number one on
-the scoreboard for a nap then they did
-the nap plus the
-caffeine and sure enough you got an
-added benefit to that which you already
-obtained from the nap now it was nowhere
-near as sizable as the benefit from the
-nap so the addition of caffeine does
-give you some nice benefits and I've
-used this before when I've worked with
-sort of professional athletes we do
-instigate these nap um these caffeine
-naps when needed so it did give a nice
-benefit but then when they looked at the
-nap Plus Cold hand and face washing and
-the nap plus the bright light those also
-added something to The Nap benefit now
-they didn't do the sixth Group which is
-really what I'm going to do some hand
-waving about which is the full St stack
-full fat method where they said okay
-you're going to do nap plus caffeine
-Plus Cold hand and face washing plus
-bright light but if you were to put
-those together my thought is that
-they're probably additive rather than
-simply just you know netting each other
-out which means that if you really want
-to not just do a nap or a nap plus which
-would be the the Caffe nap but the nap
-plus plus version you can lean into this
-study and the protocol there would be
-you get into bed you have your espresso
-shot before you turn the light you Swig
-it go down set your alarm for 20 minutes
-you wake up the caffeine is kicking in
-you get over the inertia you go straight
-out cold hands cold face by way of cold
-water and then you get immediate
-daylight for 5 to 10 minutes outside and
-at that point you're really in a
-supercharged state so that's if you just
-because I know there's probably going to
-be some audience members who are willing
-to give this a try or who really want to
-optimize don't give me you know what is
-good give me the extreme very best
-that's the only suggestion I would have
-based on that data I love it and
-actually what you just described could
-easily be um translocated to the uh the
-period after uh waking from the nightly
-bout of sleep although one wouldn't
-ingest caffeine prior to waking up for
-obvious reasons um but it would make
-good sense to me to uh wake up obviously
-get sunlight in one's eyes um splash
-some cold water in one's face or hands
-or get cold shower cold plunge um
-caffeine or delay caffeine I mean it's
-essentially the same set of tools and I
-think it really um points to the fact
-that circadian rhythm clearance of
-adenosine uh temperature modulation and
-of course the the way in which these
-interact um are really the the levers
-and and knobs to to modulate wakefulness
-yeah it's it's so it there are I think
-we've gone over this notion of naps but
-there are ways that you can try to
-manipulate the nap system still and
-there are ways that you can manipulate
-it even further but I like what you're
-saying because it just comes back to the
-fundamentals let's let's forego the the
-nap conversation just go back to the
-morning routine you're absolutely right
-and think about the cold water and
-warmart my guess is that very few people
-when they go to bed
-they wash their face and their hands
-maybe they're probably not washing it
-with cold water before they go to bed
-correct they're going to be washing it
-with warm water why don't they do that
-and they just say well why would I
-Splash cold water on my face you know
-probably wakes me up you ever thought
-about why it wakes you up part of it is
-the you know the shot of activation but
-the other part is Thermo regulation and
-the opposite is what what you want to do
-if anything you want to be warming your
-hands and your feet and that's exactly
-what you've always done you've always
-medicated your sleep onset by using warm
-water on your face and your hands
-several times during today's discussion
-we talked about polyphasic sleep um and
-the different types of polyphasic sleep
-that we covered are I wouldn't say
-conventional but they're um conventional
-is what are some of the more um esoteric
-or let's call them high performance Pol
-polyphasic uh strategies uh for sleep so
-we've spoken about polyphasic sleep in
-the natural way it occurs which is
-during infancy and sleeping like a baby
-means that you're sleeping in a highly
-polyphasic way but probably around about
-the late 1990s 2000s with the emergence
-of the biohacker movement and the
-Quantified
-self-movement there started to become a
-lot of chatter online about this notion
-of polyphasic sleep and here no longer
-are we infants we're now adults but
-we're engaging in a pattern that is
-highly
-polyphasic polyphasic sleep simply by
-definition again means that you're
-having multiple phases of sleep within a
-24-hour period And there are different
-strategies so the way polyphasic sleep
-in adults works is that you take the
-24-hour period and you think about it
-like a pie chart and then you start to
-slice that pie up into these quadrants
-when it comes to polyphasic sleep the
-goal is to put insert multiple phases of
-sleep around the 24-hour clock rather
-than one single phase but the thinness
-of those slices of the pie are very thin
-leaving large thick slices of
-wakefulness in between the notion that
-being that if you were to sort of just
-intersperse Little soupson of sleep in
-terms of these little thin slices of
-sleep you can increase the amount of
-time that you're awake and you can
-increase all of the benefits of a wake
-so if you look at the there is a website
-I think it's called the polyphasic
-society and there it's not a scientific
-Society like the you know psychological
-the American Association for uh
-psychology or medical um American
-Medical Association or British medic
-it's not one of those ratified certified
-scientific or medical it's just society
-that lives online which is great and
-they make claims to suggest that
-polyphasic sleep can improve aspects of
-your mood it can improve aspects of your
-productivity it can maybe even improve
-aspects of Health I think sometimes
-there are claims that it can help with
-lifespan and there are a number of
-different schedules that they will
-describe to you and that you can find
-out there of polyphasic sleep there is
-is the first one that probably people
-have heard of is called the uberman
-schedule and by the way there is no h at
-the start of that it is simply you I
-know it's not this man sitting across
-from me who has anything to do with this
-schedule and after we discuss the data
-he will um reassert that very same fact
-then there's something called the
-Everyman shedule and then there is the
-triphasic schedule and there's lots of
-different other flavors of this the
-differences between them are in how you
-split up that pie chart and how much you
-assign to little thin slices of sleep
-versus longer periods of wake and how
-many of those you insert but they all
-follow the same pattern if you look at
-the literature however it didn't begin
-with the biohacker movement the first
-description I can find in the human
-record comes from Time Magazine an issue
-in
-1943 and they describe the protocol of
-at the time a fantastic very interesting
-designer a guy called book Minster
-Fuller and he created a design principle
-and that design principle was called the
-daxian principle the daxian principle
-was principally used initially to build
-unique building structures and it uses
-this notion of different sort of almost
-spokes that interconnect in a central
-Hub that create a self-supporting
-structure are the most obvious have you
-ever been to one of those geodesic domes
-and inside you go in it's like a
-botanical garden and it's all tropical
-despite you being in a let's say being
-in England in London and is beautifully
-tropical inside of that that structure
-that sort of latis structure that comes
-in part from his Design This was the
-daxian principle and he scaled it to
-different things the daxian car the
-daxian house the daxian Dome it
-fascinating
-but he was no fan of sleep and he saw
-sleep as a rather significant waste of
-time when just like the rest of his
-daxian principle he could be harnessing
-more efficiency out of the system with
-less structure and here less sleep
-structure inserted into his 24-hour
-period so he was the first one to
-describe his schedule and it was called
-the daxian schedule of polyphasic sleep
-so it may have been a practice earlier
-in the record but that's the earliest
-one I can find so let's come back to the
-claims of polyphasic sleep that it could
-improve let's say your mood or your
-cognition or your productivity or your
-health the a group of scientists at
-Harvard some of my old colleagues um
-from Harvard they looked at all of the
-literature on all of the stes that were
-polyphasic like or testing this
-claim and the first thing that they
-found was to their claims of improved
-cognition productivity mood as well as
-health they found no supportive evidence
-that polyphasic sleep was helpful then
-they turned the tables and they said
-well could it be hurtful and in fact
-that's exactly what they found firstly
-the total amount of sleep that you get
-on any one of those schedules is
-decreased significantly now of course
-that's the goal the quality of sleep
-that you get though is miserable your
-sleep efficiency even when you're having
-these short periods of time especially
-during the waking hours is very poor
-it's not a type of even short sleep that
-you would wish for third they found that
-it would reduce your REM sleep amounts
-so that was the first set of findings
-your sleep is no better if anything it's
-significantly worse and then they
-started to find that there were
-significant impairments in many of those
-things impairments in cognition in
-judgment making and decision- making
-impairment in mood and some aspects of
-impairment in metabolic Health
-particularly glucose
-regulation so when it comes to
-polyphasic sleep sleeping like a baby if
-you're an adult seems to be a rather
-unwise piece of advice now yeah I mean
-it probably goes along with eating baby
-food drinking breast milk and um and uh
-having somebody else uh clothe and
-change you as an adult it's probably uh
-not advisable
-it doesn't seem to be at least supported
-by the data and again I want to be so
-careful here and you're very careful too
-I'm not here to necessarily tell anyone
-absolutely how to live their life I'm
-just a scientist and all I can do is
-give you the information just as you do
-and then it's up to you to make the best
-decisions that you wish to make all I
-would say is that I would hope that as
-long as you're not hurting yourself and
-harming your health and you're not
-hurting other people then and it makes
-you happy then I say whatever it is in
-life good luck I I embrace it I always
-say uh do as do as you wish but know
-what you're
-doing and don't hurt yourself or anybody
-else can you get me that T-shirt and I
-will wear it five days through Tuesday
-so here in this regard though I would
-say the evidence would suggest that
-maybe you're compromising your health
-and your Wellness but that's your choice
-voice and I understand it so again no
-judgment to the question however of as
-long as you're not hurting other people
-here I would say that there is a pause
-of a caution because what we know is
-that when you're not getting sufficient
-sleep I described all of the health
-consequences in the first episode
-there's another danger here which is
-road traffic accidents and we describe
-these micro sleeps that happen and why
-car accidents that are caused by
-sleepiness can be so catastrophic
-there's a very interesting study that
-was done where they looked at people
-getting less than 6 hours of sleep for
-several nights and they put them into a
-driving simulator and they asked what is
-the probability that you have a crash or
-an off-road event and sleeping less than
-6 hours a night resulted in a 30%
-increase in you getting into a car
-crash now the AAA release some data
-showing that when you get down to 5
-hours of sleep there is I think it's
-something like two Three Times Higher
-likelihood of an accident based on real
-data and then when you were on 4 hours
-of sleep it was close to a 10 times
-greater risk so in other words the less
-and less sleep that you get it's not a
-linear increase in your risk of a car
-accident it's an exponential increase so
-I bring this back to polyphasic sleep
-because I don't know you know think
-about that 30% study let's not go to the
-extreme just less than 6 hours of sleep
-if this evening you call a taxi and it
-turns out two taxis turned up and
-outside of your door I said look one of
-these two ta you can choose either one
-of them but I'll just tell you that one
-of these taxis has a 30% higher
-likelihood of getting in a crash
-relative to the other and it's this one
-on the right which would you like to
-pick which would you like to put your
-wife and children in to S it's very
-obvious so I rais that question just to
-be mindful no one would wish to cause
-harm on someone else to C carry the harm
-of someone else by way of your own doing
-on your shoulders for the rest of your
-life is not one I would wish for and
-it's not one that you would wish for
-that's the only cautionary note but
-other than that I would say you know
-sort of live life to the full well that
-brings us to the conclusion of yet
-another incredible Voyage into the
-landscape of sleep most notably on the
-different phases monophasic biphasic and
-polyphasic sleep
-and naps and caffeine and all of their
-interactions these are such important
-topics at the level of Concepts the
-level of mechanisms and as you've also
-beautifully described at the level of
-protocols that is actionable tools that
-people can apply so thank you ever so
-much Matt for taking us even further
-along this Voyage I'll just remind
-people that episodes one and two of this
-series that U Matt is uh so generously
-providing information about sleep for us
-are out and those can be accessed
-through links in the show note captions
-um those fill in yet other mechanisms
-and aspects of sleep and I'm also
-particularly excited for the fourth
-installment in this series coming up
-about the relationship between sleep
-memory and creativity so just incredibly
-important topics relevant to everybody I
-also just want to make note that I
-really appreciate you highlighting some
-of the develop velopmental shifts that
-occur with sleep I often get questions
-about um you know sleep in children and
-babies and uh elderly adults as well as
-um all the ages in between and you've
-just um built this incredible tapestry
-of of information for people to think
-about and act upon should they choose so
-thank you Matt ever so much and I look
-forward to episode four Andrew thank you
-it is such a privilege and it remains
-just my absolute Delight to be here with
-you thank you thank you for joining me
-for today's episode with Dr Matthew
-Walker to learn more about Dr Walker's
-research and to learn more about his
-book and his social media handles please
-see the links in our show note captions
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