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Crime in America keeps going down, yet the American public refuses to believe it - fogus http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/02/14/imaginary_fiends/?page=1 ====== jameskilton Very simple explanation: the media. Fewer crimes happen these days yes, but that just means that the media can cover more of them that _do_ happen, so we are more informed of crime than we ever have been in the past. Thus, the news sources end up propagating this false idea that crime is actually on the rise because they work hard at keeping this news always at the forefront of people's minds. ~~~ S_A_P that pretty much sums it up there. It doesnt stop with crime either- weather reports in my city often have overtones of Armageddon as well... ~~~ akgerber I think you mean Snowmageddon. ~~~ adamhowell Or Snowpocalypse. Or Snowtorius B.I.G. ------ masterponomo In Atlanta, the crime statistics are down because the recently-departed police chief set up a system where his performance (and that of his underlings, all the way down) was measured based on the information that made it into the computer system. Apparently, he has made a career out of installing this system when he is appointed in a new city. As with defect tracking systems in many businesses, there is a tendency from the top down to game the system, redefine terms, and reclassify crime reports as lesser crimes or mere 'incident' reports. When your job and compensation starts to depend on statistics emitted by a computer, self-preservation leads to dishonesty. The administration in Atlanta continues to resist the creation of a citizen review board with actual teeth--one that can do more than sit in review of a few high-profile incidents and instead focus on seeking independent crime statistics to really guage the performance of the police department. I don't know about other cities, but I suspect the use of such crime stats packages is common in many jurisdictions. ~~~ halo While your cynicism about official crime statistics may be well placed, there are ways of measuring crime that are practically impossible to manipulate, such as crime surveys which ask a random sample of the population if they have been the victims of crime in the last year. Both the US-based National Crime Victimization Survey (<http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/>) and the British Crime Survey (<http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/soti.html>) are of this type, and they have both shown a consistent downward trend in most types of crime. In addition, the figures for some classes of crime, such as homicides, can't be manipulated either, and these have also been decreasing in recent years. ~~~ masterponomo Public perception of crime is not based on the murder statistics (though of course the occasional senseless killing during a robbery raises more outrage than the garden-variety domestic violence murder). Perception of crime in my neighborhood (Centennial Park/Marietta Artery) is based on the ability to walk down the street without being accosted by a beggar, or to park your car without having it broken into, or to walk the sidewalk after dark without fear of being robbed. I'm in a fairly secure condo building so fear of a break-in is not that great, but in surrounding neighborhoods of free-standing houses, break-ins are rampant. Just as you met my statement of reality with more references to statistics, the police and the city government here continue to give each other pats on the back as the populace grows ever more wary based on what we see on the streets out our windows with our own eyes, not based on the media or the official stats. We don't have a math problem--we have a police manpower, quality of life, and law enforcement problem. ------ nazgulnarsil I'm going to get downvoted for this because its fairly controversial and therefore requires backing up, but I'm at work. multiculturalism makes people more suspicious and distrustful, regardless of the actual state of physical safety and security. sucks, but our brain is wired that way. <http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon2007-06-25jl.html> ~~~ sp332 Monoculturalism is a form of conservatism. Multiculturalism makes things less certain. It shouldn't be seen as fear, just less certainty. “In colloquial language, people living in ethnically diverse settings appear to ‘hunker down’—that is, to pull in like a turtle.” This is a completely normal response to uncertainty. ~~~ randallsquared You seem to be using "uncertainty" so that it is indistinguishable from how most of us would use "fear". ~~~ sp332 If an investment is uncertain, a conservative person would not make the investment. The conservative person is therefore not afraid, because they don't have anything on the line. Fear comes after you invest in something uncertain, because then you might lose something. So, uncertainty might affect your choice to invest, but fear only comes after. ------ DannoHung Edwards: Why the big secret? People are smart. They can handle it. Kay: A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow. ~~~ pixcavator Here's another one for this list: everybody knows that five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth>). ------ tokenadult The trend reported in the submitted article is true. That doesn't stop me from personally knowing various victims of various crimes (which did not receive mass media coverage). The overall crime rate in the United States is still high by historical standards, having dropped back to levels of the 1960s, which were levels much higher than in the preceding decade. The trend line looks encouraging, but the actual base rate of crime still needs to be reduced some more. ~~~ rbranson I don't think you can compare crime now to the anything previous to the 60s. The advent of ubiquitous telecommunications, security cameras, computerized record keeping and banking, standard government-issued IDs, DNA evidence, et al have all significantly changed how we both perceive the level of crime and track the level of crime. ~~~ jrockway Not to mention that reading certain books is apparently a crime these days. ------ david927 Oh, it's going down. But the United States is doing this by keeping _everone_ who might commit a crime in jail. And that's expensive. As the depression deepens, you'll see states start to close down detention facilities. Add to that a huge unemployment rate among the young and poor, and you're just asking for fireworks. ------ ErrantX Once again I recommend the book "Risk: the science and politics of fear". It outs forwards lots of theories and research related to this. On a related note I saw the other day that one percent of the us population is in jail. A huge amount of basic bits and bobs like military gear and paint (90% of domestic pain production for example) are made by prisoners (some might say as slave labour!). One in ten black men are in prison. 2 in ten have been in prison at some point. This numbers gobsnacked me (passed on for informational purposes only :-)) ~~~ jedc I saw the author speak; he's a smart guy and is tackling a tough subject. There are a lot of reasons most people (including myself) develop screwed-up attitudes toward risk. The media is most certainly one, but it also deals with natural phenomenon in how our brains are wired for survival. (Recency bias, availability bias, etc.) ~~~ ErrantX Cool! Where did you see him speak? I've not dug around for any more of his work. Risk was really eye opening so I probably should! ~~~ jedc You can see the (hour-long) video of his talk here: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6buOrNLXIgg> (I was in the audience that day...) ------ mark_l_watson Another myth: the world is a dangerous place. Seriously, for most people on earth, the world has steadily become a safer place over the last 50 years. Far more danger during the "cold war." Media hype of "orange alerts," "red alerts," etc. is just a clever way to get people to accept $1.5 trillion/year of military related spending each year (in the USA). Sure, crime, terrorism, rogue governments like Israel and Iran, etc. are some danger to the world population, but I believe that the trend is towards a safer world. ------ BigZaphod I know this perception is certainly true in my family. At any major family gathering it always seems to come up that everything is "so much worse" and "more dangerous than it used to be." "We used to just leave the doors unlocked and no one cared - now you can't leave anything unattended or it'll walk off!" And yet this is based on no evidence at all. If I ask if they've had anything stolen, the answer is always no; then they justify that result because they always lock things up! Sigh. ~~~ randallsquared _If I ask if they've had anything stolen, the answer is always no; then they justify that result because they always lock things up!_ Maybe that's actually part of it. A culture of suspicion would seem likely to make crime less likely to be successful, so perhaps worried vigilance is part of why crime is decreasing. Edit: Underreporting might explain some of this apparent decrease, too. If you think there's essentially no hope of recovering what was lost, you might well not bother reporting a crime, and you're less likely to think that the police can be effective for you if it seems as though they're ineffective in general. Last spring, I had my G1 stolen right out of my hands while I was texting on it, in downtown DC. I didn't even realize it was taken at first; I thought I'd dropped it because someone bumped me, so it took a few seconds to even look for the thief, and by that point he was just going around the corner. If I had reported it, I wouldn't have been able to give a description other than general skin color, build, and clothing, and 90% of the people around me were wearing the same jeans-and-red-shirt as the thief (a Capitals game night). With less than a 1% chance of getting my phone back, and no insurance on it, I didn't bother to spend the next coupla hours of my life complaining to the police about it; that would have just made things worse for me. ~~~ palish Why would anyone bother stealing a cell phone? They're easy to flag as "stolen" and become useless at that point. ~~~ randallsquared I assume you can just flash it to a new serial number, but I don't know that much about it. The T-Mobile folks didn't seem surprised when I said it had been stolen, and had a procedure to cut off the sim pronto, so it's not too unusual. ------ j_baker In fairness, social data is just as tricky as any other kind of data (even if sociology is a "soft science"). First of all, lower crime rates doesn't necessarily mean that less crime is happening. It means that less crime is getting _reported_. There is a huge difference. For instance, you may notice that crime rates in Britain skyrocketed the same year they passed a handgun ban. As it turns out, they also switched to a more accurate crime reporting system that same year which caused the spike. Secondly, crime rates are difficult to analyze. Saying "crime is going down" is like saying "sickness is going down". There are lots of different kinds of crime with lots of different motivations behind each, and those kinds of broad generalizations are rarely useful. So while I do feel that the media is playing games with the American public, I also can't blame the public for not being more educated on crime rates. ------ AnneTheAgile A reason I am not optimistic about crime in the USA is the continuing escalation of so-called smaller issues. With crime, "a stitch in time saves nine." Catching a small incident and having the person change behavior leads to enormous changes over time. For an example that many consider trivial, cursing is at an all time high. Cursing's purpose in life is to convey and share anger: it is not conducive to high quality, cheerful life. There is research in psychology that shows that expressing anger leads to more, not less, of it. I actually consider quitting HackerNews entirely due to the poor quality of auto-removal of cursing in titles, text, and remarks. I am very repulsed by the ruby community for the same reason. For exaple, ruby sub, an email client has an homepage that features cursing. I just feel ick and don't even want to try it any more. A second glaring example, imho, is vandalism. Nowadays, when I accosted a vandal in NYC, he gave me the NY Times' justifications for his crime. He said "it's art!" and "I'm black and I'm angry!" He has absorbed all the anti- capitalist myths; I am sure he never read Atlas Shrugged! The amount of property destruction is enormous. That is crime and that is way way up. In some ways, the world is getting alot better: Ayn Rand's philosophy is being developed and publicized. Those who uphold her ideas of independence, rationality, etc, are very civilized. Thus it's a race between her ideas and those of Kant. ~~~ loupgarou21 With cursing, an increase in the frequency of cursing is not necessarily a bad thing. These forbidden words only hold power in their taboo; by using them more frequently and openly, it robs the words of their power. I frequently hear people swearing without trying to express hate, it has just become a part of their parlance. ------ flipper In Freakonomics Steven D. Levitt argued that crime rates in a locality are linked to abortion laws in the same locality a generation earlier. Basically, in the US, states that legalized abortions after Roe v Wade 1973 noticed a drop-off in crime starting around 1990, whereas states that did not legalize abortion did not see a drop. He claimed that changes in police methods around the same time were not so statistically significant in altering the crime rate. ------ _delirium _The Economist_ had a similar story on the perception that crime is up even though it's considerably down in the UK: [http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?stor...](http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=15452867) Their two main explanations are: 1\. Increasingly nationalized "local" news means that when rare but gruesome crimes happen, instead of just the city or county where they happen being outraged, now the whole country is outraged. 2\. A lot of the decrease in violent crime, for the UK at least, is a decrease in violent crime by people known to the attacker, like domestic violence. Crime by strangers is not down nearly as much, and is the kind people mostly mean when they're worried about crime--- they're worried about some guy on the street mugging them, or a robber breaking into their house. ------ chuckfouts One possible cause of lower crime rates in the United States is the ever increasing size of the prison population. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rat...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate) ~~~ nfnaaron Or, crime might be even lower than it is now if we stopped locking up some carefully chosen portion of convicted criminals. From the wikpedia article: "One partial, but significant cause of high incarceration rates is that the United States locks people up, some for a long time, for non-violent crimes. ... Within three years of being released, 67% of the ex-prisoners re-offend and 52% are actually re-incarcerated." I wonder how many of those locked up for some definition of non-violent/minor crime, or casual drug offense, and who are part of the 67% and 52%, would never have gone on to "re" offend and be "re" incarcerated if they hadn't been imprisoned in the first place. ~~~ anamax You're assuming that the second crime is violent, which is curious given your assumption that a large fraction of prisons are in for non-violent crimes. There's also the problem that convictions and sentences understate the crimes committed by those convicted because of plea bargaining. In other words, the fact that someone was sentenced for a non-violent crime does not imply that they didn't commit a violent crime. And then there's the whole "gateway" theory. I don't know how all these things work out - I'm just pointing out that the plausible theories go all directions. ------ mcav Crime is publicized everywhere, drilled into peoples' heads on TV and in newspapers. In the public eye, crime continues to be seen as a rampant problem regardless of its increase or decline. ~~~ techiferous "Crime is publicized everywhere" The main culprit is your local news. ------ flogic A year or two ago, an NYPD officer told us crime was up in the city and that it just wasn't getting reported. Yet another case of making your metrics. ~~~ petewarden Almost all murders get reported, even in very screwed up countries. That makes it a very useful metric for comparisons across different places, and across time in the same place. Without additional evidence, that police officer's statement isn't very helpful or credible. ~~~ hga No, you'd be surprised at how many of the less obvious ones can get swept under the rug (and even the obvious, see recent Amy Bishop coverage). This happens in the U.K. to game the statistics, from what I've read. ~~~ petewarden I certainly would be surprised. Do you have any references? I recommend "Understanding crime data: haunted by the dark figure" as a good summary of the research on this topic. It's easy to come up with anecdotes of particular unreported murders. The data shows that these are statistically very rare, almost every victim has a family who reports them missing even if no body is found. ~~~ flogic As a completely uneducated layman, I'm skeptical of the link between murder and other crime. I thought murder more often than not is a crime of passion. ~~~ hga I'm not sure most of them are "crimes of passion", certainly most victims have a criminal past in the US. But, yes, it does seem to be not tightly linked to other violent crimes. But we focus on it since it's the hardest to sweep under the rug, despite that happening a lot. ------ JoeAltmaier Does the rise of the Internet correlate? Our "news" is now just blogs and rumor - which is by its nature sensational. ~~~ didroe Broadcast media and print are doing a fine enough job on their own with sensationalism and scaremongering. ------ graywh This is just one point of many made in Gregg Easterbrook's _The Progress Paradox_. It describes ways life continues to get better, but people feel worse despite it. ------ mattmcknight I think the perception that crime is worse comes from the vast numbers of people in prison, which has risen significantly, and continues to rise. ------ icono Ha...too many crime shows on TV. I was recently home shopping and my realtor thought she was going to be killed daily. ------ yesimahuman When someone you know is murdered for no apparent reason, the actual crime rate really doesn't matter. ~~~ dkarl So, thanks to Facebook, not to mention our ability to feel "connected" with someone who has been memorialized ad nauseam on cable news, the number of people with this excuse is increasing despite the number of random murders decreasing? ~~~ yesimahuman Perhaps, although calling it an "excuse" is rather offending depending on who the person is and your relationship to them. I think anyone would feel upset if someone they knew _of_ died. Facebook just helps you find out about it sooner rather than twenty years later. ~~~ dkarl It's okay if the families and friends of murder victims feel murder as a visceral reality in their lives. It's even okay if that completely unbalances their political opinions. If violent crime escalated to the point that such people were anything other than a small minority, drastic measures would be appropriate. However, people have a tremendous appetite to vicariously live the dramas of others. The more dramatic, the better. The vast majority of the electorate turn on their televisions every day with an appetite, latent or manifest, to become emotionally involved, and television producers strive to feed that appetite. We can't allow that many people the privilege to say "the actual crime rate doesn't matter." They have a civic responsibility to (do their best to) choose appropriate policy approaches to violent crime. If everyone excuses themselves from their civic responsibilities because they were traumatized by CNN's coverage of Natalee Holloway, then our policies will be designed for a nonexistent hyperviolent world. Obviously people should put their relationships in perspective, but they often prefer not to. If Ryan Seacrest is murdered today, will his millions of Twitter followers take a deep breath and say, "Well, you know, it's not as if he was really my friend." Of course not. People find it deeply satisfying to join in collective grief and outrage. They'll exaggerate their emotional connection for the sake of amplifying the drama. Nobody wants to be left out. Of course, no one who is really grieving the loss of a close friend would react that way, but when they're outnumbered thousands or millions to one by voyeurs, do their reactions matter anymore? ------ BearOfNH I have read [no citation available :-( ] the actual crime rate is somewhat correlated with the number of young men -- say, aged 13-30 -- in the population. This would explain an increase in the 1960s followed by a decrease in the 1990s and beyond. ~~~ spamizbad Possibly but why wasn't there a second spike with the Gen-Y baby-boom (born in the range of 1980-1999), a much larger group than the original Baby-Boomers? ~~~ dandelany <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uspop.svg> The Gen-Y baby-boom is not a larger group than the original Baby-Boomers. However, there is definitely a noticeable Gen-y bump. I'm guessing that the most common ages for criminals are in the dip of that curve, maybe 20-24, which means the downward trend should soon begin to reverse if this correlation holds true. edit: just realized that chart is from 2000; you're absolutely right that a second spike is missing. ------ wendroid Same in the UK	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Dreamhost slams Rails for not working well on shared hosting - pius http://blog.dreamhost.com/2008/01/07/how-ruby-on-rails-could-be-much-better/ ====== SwellJoe While I agree that RoR is pretty damned hard to use in a shared environment, I'll point out that it is definitely possible. It took Jamie a couple of weeks to get it all spinning...but Virtualmin can spawn mongrels, configure load balancing in Apache, and still keep it all running as the user (making it safe for shared hosting environments). Several of our customers have it deployed...and while the load of the RoR stack is significantly higher than PHP (or Perl/Python) under mod_fcgid, it can be done safely. ~~~ pius Rails really exposes the overselling that occurs in most shared hosting environments. Though this isn't by any means praise for Rails, it does explain why a company that with massively popular shared hosting might be annoyed by it. I don't mean this as an indictment of Dreamhost. I recall when I first started experimenting with Rails (years ago, pre-1.0 IIRC), Textdrive somehow had this reputation of being "the Rails host." This was probably a combination of the Textdrive folks giving some early sponsorship to Rails while having one of the more customizable shared hosting environments available. Anyway, imagine my surprise when I found that one could not reliably deploy a Rails app of any substance (even apps developed by Rails core members) on TxD's shared hosting because they kept killing the processes due to memory overages! Though it's understandable from a business perspective why there are process (and, more generally, resource limits) for shared hosting, it's also an absolute disgrace for a hosting company to imply that one can run Rails on its shared hosting when their policies preclude it and then all but call customers cheap for not wanting to upgrade to a $150/month plan just to run a basic app. ~~~ SwellJoe I don't know that that's an entirely fair assessment of TextDrive (and not just because they're a customer of Virtualmin). They were pioneers in running Rails in a shared environment...and the Rails development community is hostile to shared hosting (perhaps because, like RoR exposing "overselling" in the hosting industry, shared hosting exposes the extreme resource usage of most RoR deployments). So, it has always been an uphill battle, and until you've actually had to fight that battle, it's hard to imagine just how ornery it is. That it took them a few months to work out all of the issues shouldn't be damning evidence against them. It was untrod and undocumented territory, and the fact that two years later most hosts still don't offer it ought to be enough evidence that the hosts that can offer it safely are above average in their technical savvy (or Virtualmin customers...). ------ zach Really, this should be a _mea culpa_ , but instead it's a rant. Dreamhost was too ambitious in trying to offer Rails hosting given their legacy infrastructure. And now they're punting. So why did they support RoR to begin with? "Ruby on Rails seemed to really fit in with our company philosophy and we thought our existing customer base would love it." Okay guys, so what have you learned here? ------ DarrenStuart hardly a slam more of a polite nudge.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Play Counter-Strike 1.6 in your browser - m0ck http://cs-online.club ====== ericzawo I sunk many hours of my life into this beautiful, beautiful game (starting at the tail end of 1.5, however!) and sometimes tune in to watch CS:GO competitive matches. I know Valorant is apparently stepping up as a spiritual successor to Counter-Strike, but I just love this game for it's emphasis on pure skill, and I really am surprised few other games have come as close as 1.6 to perfecting a team-based FPS that lands all players on an almost perfectly level playing field. ~~~ anoraca Valorant appears to me to be an uninspired clone with a few gimmicks and a lot of marketing money behind it. It's the same way that LoL was a clone of DotA with extra marketing and a few gimmicks. I don't understand why anyone knowledgeable would be installing a "free" game that includes a kernel level rootkit. [https://www.techspot.com/news/84841-valorant-anti-cheat- soft...](https://www.techspot.com/news/84841-valorant-anti-cheat-software- loads-kernel-based-driver.html) ~~~ ionwake I believe you are wrong , Dota2 was a rip off of LOL. Interesting you mention the root kit - you realise Steam monitors urls Your machine has visited right? They also didn’t confirm whether or not these are then uploaded to their servers. ~~~ 07t15 Dota 2 was a (almost carbon) copy of a DotA map for Warcraft III (there was even a settlement between Blizzard and Valve about this). Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, but it makes more sense to claim that LoL was inspired by a DotA map. ------ blattimwind This could serve as a demonstration what a long way way web sockets/rtc/channels still have to go, since the experience is much worse even considering the ping compared to 20 year old netcode. ~~~ hombre_fatal You're going to hang the state of networked browser gaming on this random person's netcode implementation? Go to r/GameDev and you can find some redditor Unity projects built on UDP that are even worse, but you aren't going to say "wow, UDP sux". Check out something like [https://krunker.io/](https://krunker.io/) which gives me a surprisingly good FPS experience despite my distance from the server. Browser gaming does take some thought though, to be sure. UDP via WebRTC is relatively new and isn't trivial. And I know some games get around TCP head of queue blocking by opening up 2+ WebSockets. ~~~ baby How good is krunker? Don't have a mouse but maybe I could get one. ~~~ KapKap55 It's quite fun and has a surprisingly deep movement system. The userbase is very young so if you have any FPS experience you will shred through the average player. Expect to get annihilated by someone who knows the movement system though. You'll know someone's using it when you see it, since they'll be moving at 999 units per second and circle strafing you to death. ------ me551ah I love how people like to make browser versions of everything. From chat apps to email clients to games. But they all end up consuming 10x the memory but are still 10x slower than their native counterparts ! ~~~ hombre_fatal Seems a bit unfair to only acknowledge one side of the trade-offs. Obviously native apps win the perf side. How about being able to play with your friends after just handing them a link? Native 1.6 doesn't even run on my computer at all. I think browser ports are the only hope that old games have at coming back. The other month I played Nox's quest mode with my friend on a browser emscripten port (plus a lot of custom code / networking to get it online). And it's a game I thought I'd never get to play again. Gog.com sells Nox for Windows but of course the servers are long offline. The adolescent glee over how much worse browser applications run really misses the big picture. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nox_(video_game)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nox_$video_game$) ~~~ moooo99 > How about being able to play with your friends after just handing them a > link? Native 1.6 doesn't even run on my computer at all. This is actually one of the major selling points for Cloud Gaming. Although it still has a lot of issues to be adressed before getting into the mainstream, this is exactly what it promises. Just sending your friends an invite link and get them to sign up is a much more pleasant experience than downloading 100+GBs of game files before being able to join the session. I also enjoy seing browser implementations of popular games. My favorite recent example is the classic version of Minecraft running in the browser [0]. The browser is obviously a much more restrictive environment than a native app, but I can still imagine plenty of useful examples for performant 3D graphics in a browser. After all, Games are often just used as a showcase for the capabilities of new Apis and performance improvements. [0] [https://classic.minecraft.net](https://classic.minecraft.net) ~~~ thefounder I always thought the cloud gamming is really just a way to move gammers to "subscriptions" instead of one time purchases, in the end milking more money and taking more control from them just like Adobe did with their creative products. ~~~ nuclear_eclipse Microsoft has been successfully charging subscriptions to millions of players every year without needing to run games in the cloud. Cloud gaming is a play at capturing revenue from people who aren't willing to shell out $300+ for hardware _and_ $60 for every AAA title they want to play. ------ tapoxi In a similar vein, [http://www.quakejs.com/](http://www.quakejs.com/) is a JavaScript port of Quake 3 (using GPL'd engine code and Q3 Demo assets) and is equally impressive ~~~ therealdrag0 Reminds me of Quake Live, which looks like it's only available on Steam now, but it used to be launch-able from Browser. Anyone know how Quake Live worked? ~~~ CodeArtisan Quake live's "main menu" interface was web based and a NPAPI plugin was used to run native code. When Chrome dropped NPAPI support, Quake Live moved to Steam, using Awesomium for the web interface part. The game is now an unmaintained relic but there still an active community. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPAPI](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPAPI) [https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Implementing_Awesom...](https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Implementing_Awesomium) ------ tupac_speedrap I like how they have Russia as the flag of Europe despite most of the country not even being in Europe, most people would use the EU flag but I guess this is CS 1.6 so they are most likely a fair few Russians about. ~~~ rapsey Russia is and always has been considered a European country. ~~~ crawlcrawler I was always told Russia spans two continents. ~~~ valvar France technically spans 6 continents. It's still a European country. ------ ProtoAES256 This is actually nice! If only CTRL+W didn't kill the tabs... We still got a long way to achieve the glorious web everything but progress is progress and I'll give them that. ~~~ kingosticks I did this 3 times and then gave up! The muscle-memory is too strong. ------ vvpvijay It is facing outage due to its popularity [https://androidrookies.com/counter-strike-1-6-in-a- browser-o...](https://androidrookies.com/counter-strike-1-6-in-a-browser-on- cs-online-club-outage-due-to-popularity/) ------ simias Is this made/approved by Valve? Or is it just that nobody cares about taking down CS 1.6 piracy anymore because it's such an old game? ~~~ m0ck Cracked (non-steam) CS 1.6 clients are available for years and I don't think Valve ever cared. ~~~ mywittyname It was never difficult to play CS for free, and that's probably the reason for its success. I remember getting into CS because you could play online with basically any Half-life product key and by 2000 you could buy bundles that came with like 3-4 keys. ~~~ ohnope I think CS, in that era, was free if you had a HL product key. It was a community mod and even when it transitioned to a boxed standalone product you could still download it if you had a HL key. CS: Source was also a free upgrade. ------ georgewsinger Who remembers CS 1.3 -- the last truly great CS, before 1.4 removed bunny hopping and thus ruined the game? ~~~ andrewksl Beta 7.1 was where it where I got hooked. The Steyr Scout was a 1 shot kill with the same move speed and cs_mansion was the epitome of map balance. At least at the 12-PC internet cafe I could play at. ------ jbverschoor For me, this is a good gaming experience.. Just stream and cache :-) Never mind, it's more like: download, wait, server full Still awesome ~~~ aarong11 Faithful to the original in that sense! ~~~ andreigaspar haha ------ MayeulC As often, the keybindings use a QWERTY-centric layout, that doesn't make much sense if that's a different keyboard, and no obvious way to change it. The steam controller API is nicely designed: you define actions, and let the user pick a way to trigger those actions. I think there are predefined ones that already have mappings for common input devices. The API then returns an image and name to correctly prompt the user. I wish we had something like this at the browser or operating system level. ~~~ baby I've had to deal with this all my life because of the French AZERTY, but honestly the best solution to this problem is to get a QWERTY keyboard. I haven't thought about this issue once in the last decade. ------ ArtWomb Next gen network streaming api for the web is WebTransport: [https://wicg.github.io/web-transport/](https://wicg.github.io/web-transport/) You can experiment with the initial draft version of QuicTransport today: [https://web.dev/quictransport/](https://web.dev/quictransport/) ~~~ dmitshur Thank you for sharing this. I didn't know about that, and it's very interesting to me. ------ fareesh I don't know much about the topic - but from what I understand, Valve games use Protocol buffers and UDP connections to the lobby server, in their netcode (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Is there an equivalent way to do this with the same level of efficiency in the browser? What are browsers missing in order to achieve this? ~~~ blattimwind > Valve games use Protocol buffers and UDP connections to the lobby server, in > their netcode (someone correct me if I'm wrong). The netcode originally used in GoldSrc/1.6 came from QuakeWorld and predates Google. IIRC it got replaced at some point. The current iteration of Source's netcode doesn't have anything to do with that, though. ~~~ reubenmorais > IIRC it got replaced at some point. The current iteration of Source's > netcode doesn't have anything to do with that, though. Do you have a source (heh) to back that? Lots of the networking configuration cvars from 1.6 are still there in CS:GO and do the same thing. Maybe it was cleaned up but I wouldn't be surprised if it's still mostly the same code. ~~~ Jasper_ According to Valve, they deployed [https://github.com/ValveSoftware/GameNetworkingSockets](https://github.com/ValveSoftware/GameNetworkingSockets) successfully on CS:GO. ~~~ reubenmorais GameNetworkingSockets is pretty cool, and integrating it must have required some extensive changes, but it's more of a networking middleware library. I thought blattimwind was referring to the gameplay related netcode (prediction, interpolation, lag compensation, etc). My understanding is that it hasn't changed much since the 1.6 days, because all of the configuration knobs are still available today, but maybe they rewrote it and I'm just out of the loop. It'd be a major task to do that without affecting gameplay "feel", which is why I was interested in some source to read more about it. ------ sershe The last version of CS worth playing was 1.2 (or 1.3? or 1.4? I don't recall), where strafe jumping was still possible, so you could pretend it's Quake and annoy the hell out of the more covert people. ------ minism Basically unplayable if you're used to CS at all, however this is a really cool and impressive project :) ------ perceptionist Cool! Now please do Heroes of Might and Magic III. ~~~ pwm Please don't, it would 100% swallow me after all these years of not playing computer games :) I loved Heroes 3. ------ scoresmoke I would say I really enjoyed it. Although the gaming experience in Safari with a Magic Mouse is odd, the connection is somewhat laggy, and people are constantly (dis)connecting, it worked really well and brought me some sweet memories about playing CS 1.6 a long time ago. ------ unemphysbro This brings back memories of 6-7 of my friends cramming our desktops into a garage to play games all-night. I still remember working summer jobs saving up for the next best video card. Fun times. ------ ben-schaaf This seems like quite the achievement. Can't crouch and walk forward though (ctrl+w), nor is it anywhere close to the performance of say cs:go at least in terms of input lag. ~~~ julianwachholz So crouch + forward will close the game? This might become the new Alt+F4 for more money hoax. ------ Hydraulix989 How does this work? CS 1.6 is closed source, as is HL1 engine? ~~~ Bayart It's a clone with CS maps. ~~~ q3k No, it seems to contain some leaked SDK and reverse engineered code: [https://github.com/FWGS/cs16-client/tree/v1.32](https://github.com/FWGS/cs16-client/tree/v1.32) , and to run on [https://github.com/FWGS/xash3d-fwgs](https://github.com/FWGS/xash3d-fwgs) . ------ greatgib Brings back good memories! But, it is so sad that we can't change the keyboard layout. So, it is sadly useless for all the people that don't have a Qwerty keyboard. ------ lovehashbrowns This is actually a lot of fun! The mouse movement sucks and I don't remember the spray patterns like this but it's still very enjoyable. ------ m00dy How does this work actually ? ~~~ __alexs It's a WebGL clone of Counter-Strike 1.6 that can even load original maps. ------ rcconf That was amazing! This is so awesome. I just played for 30 minutes since I haven't played since I was a kid. I use to be very good and apparently still have it since I landed #1 after playing all the rounds :) Thanks for sharing this, made my morning and took me away from development work for once! ------ cagenut On a semi-related note, if anyone feels nostalgia for CS1.6/CS:GO and has a VR HMD, jump on Pavlov and join a Search & Destroy server/map. The experience of spawning into and running around a map that you have played for 20 years is beyond mind blowing. ------ Jyaif Is it WebSocket or Data channel based? ------ IvanK_net It took me almost a minute until I started to play. The rotation with a mouse was very slow (you have to move the mouse by a huge distance). I prefer to play [https://www.krunker.io](https://www.krunker.io), where you can play immediately :) ~~~ m0ck There is a disclaimer that first loading is always a lot slower, since it is downloading and caching all the files ~~~ AnIdiotOnTheNet Even after that first time, it takes a good 20-30 seconds to process the files again. ------ shardulaeer Anyone knows how this game has been ported to the browser? Is it compiled to Webassembly? ------ leonfedden Very cool, thank you for sharing. Unfortunately I downloaded resources, waited, and the server was full. After repeating for 3/4 times I gave up, so maybe a little more work needed there to cache and/or manage servers a little better for the end-user. Still a very cool project! ------ baby I discovered that the other day, I find it completely insane. Also how is this even legal. Well I hope Valve doesn't get angry at it, actually I don't know why Valve is not even doing this (and adding their own skins marketplace) ------ gt565k Wonder if the physics bugs exist on this web port of CS for maps like ka_roadwars_v2 That was an epic map where you could glitch into the wall with a vehicle and shoot yourself off in the air and go into the hidden gun room. Fun times. ------ Insanity That's amazing! Used to be addicted to CS:S (surfing) and found a surf server on here. But for something as fast-paced as surfing, the experience is not wonderful (small input lag). Still, really impressed by this. ------ RogueBurger Man, if you had told me back when I was playing 1.6 that one day I would be playing it in a browser, I would have laughed. Crazy how far we've come with video games. ------ bArray Wow that was an awful experience, I lagged to some random location and died instantly. Seems like browser based gaming might have some way to go. Good effort though. ------ nullifidian browser FPSs will never take off due to complete lack of protection from cheating, and cheating is the core implementation issue with FPSs. ~~~ kroltan How is it that running in a browser is inherently unprotected? Sure, they don't usually have the thousands of man-hours dedicated to cheat detection, but the basics are usually sorted out. ~~~ orbital-decay Client-side anticheats are essentially advanced rootkits, and cannot be implemented in a browser sandbox. ------ tartoran Wow, I find this amazing though im not into this kind of games at all. I gave it a run, took a while to load at first but the playing experience was quite nice. I killed a few people with a knife and got killed a few times and thats enough violence for me. Nonetheless, having this run in the browser just like that, no downloads, no installs, no tweaks.. im wowoed. Good job peeps Edit: my experienece was quite nice, I launched this in Firefox on Win 10 on my mediocre laptop (i7-7560u/8gb ram) ~~~ notRobot That's not a mediocre laptop. ~~~ tartoran I paid ~$500 for it, its an average laptop. Lenovo ideapad s340. We’re in 2020, whats an average laptop for this time and age ------ tomc1985 It's hard to figure out which server I'd want to play when they don't show pings in the server browser ~~~ kbenson > they don't show pings in the server browser Pings are more complicated in this setup. A low ping to a server won't help too much if you have high ping to the online client itself. Are there different clients in different locations so you can select a low-ping client? ~~~ capableweb No, ping is as complicated as for any gaming server. You have one central server and many clients connected to that central server. I don't think the game is running somewhere else, it's running directly in the browser, so only ping you care about is from your computer to the central server. ~~~ kbenson There's definitely not "one" central server. Depending on how they route your connection (do they proxy you or redirect you), you might still just be connected to the server you're playing on, but the "ping" is also more complicated in itself since the protocol is more complicated. Instead of information from the client to the server which updates all the dynamic entity states, you are instead sending input commands and getting video and audio back. So, not only would "ping" measure something entirely different, it would possibly be optimized for in the path between you and the remote differently as well. They may have decided that instead of providing a metric that might lead people to believe it's similar to and implies the same thing as it did in the past, they'll remove it. If so, I would hope they would put something semi- equivalent in it's place. Maybe they did, but it's so removed it's hard to locate? ------ dirtyid Wish I knew about this during quarantine. ------ jean-malo It worked for me after a few tries, input lag is pretty significant though. Anyhow it's a very neat project, thanks for sharing! ------ lxgr Impressive! But it also feels like this is making a convincing case for an UDP equivalent to websockets. ------ quyleanh Such a memory... There is some lag due to network, but this is still a great and very promise project. ------ catwind7 oh my god this is so cool. I just played a round of C.S in my browser. still letting that sink in. ------ eddieoz As a demo of a web application, it works very well. But definitely not for playing yet. ------ ksec Does it work on Safari? It has been initialize Shaders for the past 10 min. ~~~ solenlyser Yes, works fine in Safari 13.1.1 ------ ameyv This reminds of Gary Bernhardt The Birth & Death of JavaScript :) ------ mleonhard It feels like 15 years ago, complete with random lag. :) ------ darcien Wow, this is really cool. I wonder if in the future, everything will run on the browser, and most software doesn't care about the OS at all. There's even a xkcd comic about this[0]. [0] [https://xkcd.com/934/](https://xkcd.com/934/) ~~~ Abishek_Muthian Technically it can, but money from Appstore, Playstore, Windows Store is too lucrative for the behemoths to give up their hold on them to improve the browser ecosystem & web apps in general. ~~~ rhlsthrm Is there a way to reconcile this? Web has such nice tooling to develop for, but it's also nice to have the discoverability and monetization opportunities of a centralized app store. ~~~ AnIdiotOnTheNet > Web has such nice tooling to develop for ...really? Web development is the absolute worst development experience I've had since doing COBOL in college. I have difficulty believing anyone can claim this who has ever developed with proper tooling for anything else. ~~~ rhlsthrm I guess I haven't done too much outside of web to know much else :). However I have done some iOS stuff and the tools are okay but much less open source, documentation, etc. ------ sid_dubey0312 This is so cool, the guy that made this has my respect! ------ sumityadav8181 Browser gaming is certainly going to evolve more and more. With Stadia and so many other browser-based games show great examples of what can be achieved. ~~~ haolez Stadia is a different kind of browser based gaming. It's a stream of inputs and outputs. ------ pbasista I have tried it in Firefox 77 on Linux running on a Core i7 CPU and the experience was mediocre. Low fps, delayed sound and imprecise mouse movement. ~~~ Krasnol FF77, i5 CPU on Win10 -> perfect. ------ imshashank Not the same as a desktop version. ~~~ halgir That's the point. ------ joyj2nd And there goes the weekend... ------ sealthedeal this is super cool. any chance this is open sourced? ------ weehack These things need to be treated like crack cocaine. ------ andreigaspar OMG! I love 1.6 this brings back so many memories! ------ VirgilShelton Ah memories! ------ bajcmartinez I just found a new lunch break hobby lol ------ conroydave this is fantastic ------ jjkmk This is really well done, is there an easy way to change mouse sensitivity? ------ timonoko Welcome to 2003. This is quite ugly and those counter-jihadist bastards refuse to die. OTH. I think remember a very good browser version of Crysis. Where is it now?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Kubernetes Performance Measurements and Roadmap - TheIronYuppie http://blog.kubernetes.io/2015/09/kubernetes-performance-measurements-and.html ====== devcamcar I'd be interesting in joining the community groups you mentioned on Slack, but I have never used Slack before and it seems to want me to create an account for an entire organization and won't allow me to create one as an individual. Not very obvious to me what to do. ;)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Books vs "e-books"? - davidw http://journal.dedasys.com/2010/03/05/books-vs-e-books# ====== jamesbritt Reasonable concerns, but most apply to print books as well. Reputation is reputation, whether it's a publishing house or a sole author. I've bought crappy books from reputable publishers (O'Reilly had a book on VBScript that was total crap, for example), so you still have to do some checking to see if a book is really going to be worth your time and money. For most technical data it seems a bit of time on Google should tell you if the author knows his or her stuff. A more reasonable concern is copy editing. While publishers may no longer be vetting the technical aspects well as they should (The book RESTful Web Services, for example, has assorted (mostly minor) technical errors) the overall editing quality tends to be good. I have less faith in sole author/editor/publisher set-ups to have proper grammar and consistent use of the author's voice, for example. OTOH, most E-books tend to be cheaper than printed books, and are often bought to expedite some development process. If I can save myself an hour two of research and dead-ends while working on a paid contract, then I've easily saved myself many times the cost of the book. Finally, printed books go on sale, too, or end up in the discount bin, so while it's not the same as finding out you could have gotten something for free, it's close. The value of technical info depends on how timely it is; these are perishable goods with a limited shelf life. You want it fresh, you gots to pay more. One annoyance with E-books that wasn't mentioned was the lack of appropriate screen formatting. I have some PDFs from Pragmatic Press, for example, and they are all laid out for the printed page, not for my laptop screen. Nothing flows; I have to deal with hard page breaks as if I were dealing with paper. ------ arihelgason Getting Real is still sold as a physical book through self publishing marketplace Lulu. Print on demand publishing is really easy and the value people place on having a hard copy makes it worth looking into as an extra sales channel. I co-authored a book whose sales are largely driven by bulk orders from high schools. They would never buy 100 licenses for a PDF version, but are quite happy to buy 100 books to distribute to their students. We considered only publishing it as an ebook, but having negotiated a favourable deal with a print on demand shop we're only selling it as a hard copy with very good margins. If you outsource fulfillment, the process can be automated just like ebook sales.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Opera 10.60 Released: WebM, AppCache, WebWorkers, Geolocation and Speed - Indyan http://my.opera.com/ODIN/blog/hello-opera-10-60 ====== avar They feature Hacker News in their promotion material for the release: <http://www.opera.com/browser/tips/?feature=speeddial> ------ budman SO excited. I continue to be impressed with Opera corp in 2010. They fumbled a bit with inital 10.x release but recovered in a big way with 10.5x and now this one is the Best Opera EVER. This one even beats out Iron Browser in Peacemaker benchmark for me, which has been a very formidable opponent until now.. <http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/5002/81454201.png> ~~~ endtime Likewise. I just installed it and it feels...really fast. My Facebook homepage seems to load much faster than it did in 10.5x, which was already no slouch. ------ colonelxc I'm pretty impressed with the effort Opera has been making lately. It certainly makes the browser war more interesting. Also, the linux upgrade is awesome. I was beginning to worry about their linux support (considering 10.50 hadn't been released yet). ~~~ robryan It's great for the browser market as a whole, Chrome, IE, Safari, FF and Opera each want to constantly one up each other so if Opera has pulled ahead again in speed you can be sure the others will be aiming to beat it. ------ rodion_89 Finally an upgrade to the Linux version of the browser! In testing it has been up to par, as advertised, so far. ~~~ cdawzrd In my testing (Ubuntu 10.04 x64) there are tons of bugs. Bookmark import dialog box won't close, some pages crash when restoring the session after exit, it's much slower than chrome or firefox... Am I the only one seeing problems? ~~~ rodion_89 I'm actually on the same setup (Ubuntu 10.04 x64) and I haven't had any of those bugs. I didn't import bookmarks at all (using the same profile from Opera 10.11) and it's _much_ faster than Firefox and Opera 10.11. Chromium is about on par in term of launch time but is slower in term of page load speeds. I've only been using this since yesterday when it was released but I haven't seen a bug so far. ------ johnohara Used Opera last summer for about 6 weeks but ultimately gravitated back to FF. Kept it installed and used it periodically to check CSS rendering between browsers. I liked 10.5 but not enough. I've noticed performance issues with FF lately so I upgraded to Opera 10.6 today just to see. Yeesh. This is fast. I'm going to stay for a while. It's a nice experience. ------ adbge Glad to see that there are FreeBSD and OpenSolaris versions available (a clear advantage over Chromium!), considering I've recently transitioned my desktop box to FreeBSD. I'll have to give Opera a spin and run some benchmarks of my own. ~~~ aw3c2 Do you really value benchmarks over the general usability and usefulness of a web browser? I love Opera and could not care less how fast its Javascript or rendering engines are. Unless pages are abusing them or have bugs, it just does not matter to me. ------ powrtoch In the eye candy department... Anyone notice the new effects on the tab rollover? Nice fading gradient and slick animation if you then hover over a different one. Not that WebM and Geolocation aren't cool too... ------ Saad_M I think a new potato test is called for! :) (<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaT7thTxyq8>) ------ a2tech And still has the bug where if you use right click+left click to go back a page, if your cursor lands on a link when the page loads it automatically follows it. ~~~ powrtoch I was surprised to read this, but can't seem to reproduce the problem... submit a bug report? ~~~ a2tech Yup-bug report submitted. I can replicate it on both my OS X machines-position your cursor over a hyperlink and click to follow it. Without moving the mouse, press right click+left click to go back a page. Release the mouse buttons. If your mouse is positioned correctly still Opera will immediately follow the link again. Its aggravating, especially since I don't tend to move the mouse cursor much. ------ axod No WebSocket :( boo ~~~ pornel OTOH Opera was first to implement <event-source src=""> element (now redesigned as JS-only API, leaving Opera incompatible). This implementation still seems to be present in 10.6. ------ GrandMasterBirt It is quite incredible with it's speed. I just might become a believer :) Firefox is plagued by performance problems on linux (at least for me). To be honest compared to chrome FF is pretty sluggish feeling. But Opera "feels" faster than chrome :) Its impressive. ------ kleiba Is FOSS actually important to anyone? ~~~ Indyan Opera is not open sourcing their engine as it doesn't fit in with their business model (they earn revenue by licensing their engine to companies like Adobe). However, where ever possible Opera encourages open standards and openness. They have been amongst the strongest supporters of Ogg Theora and now WebM. Their DragonFly developers tool is open source. Opera's Ogg Theora video player is based on open source gstreamer. <http://sourcecode.opera.com/gstreamer/> Also notable is Opera's opposition to software patents and their contribution to the W3C and WHATWG.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Things that make Go fast - davecheney http://dave.cheney.net/2014/06/07/five-things-that-make-go-fast ====== hendzen Escape analysis, dead code elimination, and function inlining are standard optimizations taught in an undergraduate compilers course. Go is cool, but I wouldn't really cite those as justifications for why. ~~~ Nitramp Yes for dead code elimination and function inlining, not so sure about escape analysis. The author acknowledges that, but there's a detail in Go: it does the function inlining at compile time (unlike e.g. Java JITs), but still manages to inline across compilation units (unlike C++, modulo LTO). That's nice, and presumably what he wanted to point out. It's also nice that in Go, these things are very straight forward due to the overall simplicity of the system (unlike C++). The dead code elimination is just a supporting fact for why that's useful, and again works across compilation boundaries. I'm not sure about your assertion of escape analysis, at least Java JITs only learned that trick as of lately, and are still pretty bad at it. C++ again suffers from cross-compilation unit visibility; even if your LTO can detect an inlineable call, its AFAIK not possible at that time to move heap allocations to the stack. This is an interesting pattern in Go, the longer one looks at it, the more you understand that it's a whole bunch of good decisions in various subsystems coming together. ~~~ pcwalton > C++ again suffers from cross-compilation unit visibility; even if your LTO > can detect an inlineable call, its AFAIK not possible at that time to move > heap allocations to the stack. Sure it is. Why not? C++ compilers don't usually do this because it doesn't help much—explicit memory management encourages people to not allocate unless necessary in the first place. ~~~ Nitramp > Sure it is. Why not? Do you have a reference for that? I'd expect this to be hard, at linking time you no longer have the C++ source, so it's much harder to make such decisions. ~~~ pcwalton You don't need the C++ source, just the IR. LLVM already removes mallocs if they are unused: [http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/llvmdev/2010-July/033017....](http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/llvmdev/2010-July/033017.html) ------ Artemis2 Unfortunately, Go's compiler is not as fast as it could be; most of the optimizations presented here were already made by compilers in the 80s. The fact that modern compilers are a really complex piece of software that took dozens of years to write and improve to the state we are at doesn't helps. Hopefully, switching to a compiler written in pure Go in Go1.4 (IIRC) will allow code maintainers to benefit of Go's simplicity. ------ Alupis The comparison between GO and Java seems unfair, given they compare a primitive variable with an object... which has methods and a bunch of other things to increase it's size (for good reason). Sure GO may be quick... but a JIT'ed java program will run at native C speed... because it's been compiled down to native code at that point... (and most language performance comparison's I've seen pop up generally ignore this fact and measure "performance" by timing runtime which includes the JVM firing up and executing cold/non-jit'ed code... not real-world scenarios for high performance code.) ~~~ melling What is Java's startup and JIT overhead? Go seems to be a good replacement for when you need a faster Python. For large, long running programs the JIT probably has better optimizations than the current Go compiler. ~~~ pjmlp > What is Java's startup and JIT overhead? Quite fast if you use an AOT compiler. On the server side, it is usually doesn't matter that much. And when it does, there are JVMs that cache JITed code. ~~~ papaf This is true for PC's and servers. However, Java startup time on the Raspberry Pi is horrific. I recently saw a small server go from 3 seconds startup on my PC to 4 minutes on a Raspberry. ~~~ pling That's pretty much because the CPU on the Pi is awful. I mean really bad. The CPU came with the SoC they could get their hands on rather than was selected as being optimal for a desktop/server role. ------ astrange Function calls aren't that slow in an OoO processor - they're perfectly predictable branches, so it can just start decoding from over there. There might be a cache miss, but there might also be fewer cache misses, or even better the CPU might skip decoding with a µop cache. Really, the purpose of inlining is so inline functions can be specialized for their new context, which can easily make the total code size smaller. On x86, size/speed tradeoffs just don't happen like they used to. ~~~ gsg That's not the whole story. There are other costs associated with calls such as spilling and imprecision of data flow analyses around a call site. ------ HeroesGrave Things that make Go fast* *compared to non-native languages like Python and Java. Could people please stop calling their favourite language fast just because it beats an interpreted/VM language. ~~~ pjmlp Not only that. Usually these comparisons cleverly leave out AOT compilers for the said languages to make theirs look better. In Java's case there are quite a few JVMs, many of those with AOT compilation to choose from, even implemented in Java itself. ~~~ marktangotango For Java can you name any AOT compilers besides Excelsior JET and GCJ? ~~~ pjmlp GCJ is dead. Yes, CodenameOne, JamaicaVM, Aonix Perc and J9 all support AOT compilation besides normal JIT. The Oracle Hotspot replacement project, Graal allows for AOT compilation via SubstrateVM. There there is RoboVM for targeting iOS applications, with WP support getting added now. Android is replacing Dalvik with ART, which does AOT compilation at installation time. Probably a few more that I am not aware. ~~~ marktangotango Thanks for the info, interesting the first four you mention are commercial products. Two you may find interesting: avian vm, and xml vm at one point could translate jvm bytecode to c for compilation with gcc. ------ zwieback I was surprised to see stack-check preambles mentioned here. Does that really happen on every function call? Or does it happen on a context switch? Usually stack-checking on function entry is considered something that makes code slow. ~~~ 4ad Yes, it happens on every function call. It costs 3 machine instructions. That is nothing. There is no other "context-switch" other than the one triggered by this check (and other similar mechanisms), Go is cooperatively scheduled; all preemption is voluntary. ~~~ zwieback Wow, what can you do in three instructions and what happens when the stack check fails? Sounds intriguing, think I'll read up on that... ~~~ 4ad Let's take a look at Linux. Other systems are similar. ; go tool objdump -s main.main a TEXT main.main(SB) /private/tmp/a/a.go a.go:9 0x400c10 64488b0c25f0ffffff FS MOVQ FS:0xfffffff0, CX a.go:9 0x400c19 483b21 CMPQ 0(CX), SP a.go:9 0x400c1c 7707 JA 0x400c25 a.go:9 0x400c1e e8ddf90100 CALL runtime.morestack00_noctxt(SB) a.go:9 0x400c23 ebeb JMP main.main(SB) a.go:10 0x400c25 e8d6ffffff CALL main.foo(SB) a.go:11 0x400c2a c3 RET a.go:11 0x400c2b 0000 ADDL AL, 0(AX) a.go:11 0x400c2d 0000 ADDL AL, 0(AX) a.go:11 0x400c2f 00 ? On linux/amd64 we can use the Local Executables TLS access procedure. In particular, we use a negative offset from the FS segment register to get a TLS slot (our job is simpler because we are always the main executable). MOVQ FS:0xfffffff0, CX We make use of two TLS variables, g and m (soon we will only use one), a pointer to g is at -16(FS). We access it in this first instruction. g is an instance of struct G, see go/src/pkg/runtime/runtime.h:/struct.G. It contains many things, but it starts like this: struct G { uintptr stackguard0; uintptr stackbase; ... In particular the first word (at offset zero) is the stackguard, which indicates the stack limit (it is also used for voluntary preemption, but that doesn't matter here). This instruction in the stack check preamble: CMPQ 0(CX), SP Compares the current stack pointer with the stackguard. In most cases we have enough stack, so the next instruction just skips past the preamble to the real function code. JA 0x400c25 When we don't have enough stack, we call a function in the runtime (one of the runtime.morestack functions). This function allocates a new stack segment (from the heap). Currently we use contiguous stacks, so if we have complete type information in the current stack we can just copy the old stack to the new stack segment fixing any pointers as dictated by the type information, and then we switch the stack pointer. If we don't have enough type information (or in previous Go versions), we use segmented stacks. We allocate a new stack segment, but we don't copy the stack; we just switch the stack pointer and we take care to be able to do the reverse operation when we return from the function. Take a look at the next instruction after the call to runtime.morestack. JMP main.main(SB) We just jump to the beggining of the function like nothing has happened. Then the algorithm repeats, but we won't fails the stack limit check again, so it will skip it. Why it jumps to the begining of the function instead of just continuing in the body of the function is left as an exercise to the reader. We used the Local Executables TLS access model here, sometimes we have to use the Initial Executable model. If we ever allow Go programs to be loaded by C programs as dynamic objects, we would have to use more complicated models. On ARM we just use a register instead of using any form of TLS. On most systems Go binaries set the FSbase register to some value on the heap, but when we use cgo, or on platforms that don't support static binaries we don't touch FSbase, as it was already set up by libc. Functions that use little stack (under 120 bytes) can be excepted from this stack check. ~~~ zwieback Thanks, nice writeup. ------ fiatmoney Hey, as long as we're talking about Go performance - can we please, please get some kind of wide vector intrinsics (ie, no cgo overhead) in a library, or at least aggressive compiler generation of vector ops that actually use AVX & the ARM NEON equivalent? Right now peak floating-point performance isn't even within half of what it should be on a very recent CPU, and I'd love to be able to deploy Go that exposes machine learning models to a network interface. ------ azam3d Go should replace Java in Android Development ~~~ pling Go should replace Dalvik and the half arsed Java runtime implementation on Android yes, but I'd take a proper mature JVM over both on _any_ device. ~~~ pjmlp I am looking forward to the Google IO presentation about ART. Looking at the official languages both in the iOS and WP 8.x SDKs, Google should at least give first class support to all major JVM languages. ------ robryk Nitpick: goroutine context switch can also happen at function calls (when the stack is being enlarged). ~~~ Rapzid I guess taking advantage of that could be tricky. If your function gets inlined...D'oh! ~~~ skj If your function is inlined (which happens at compile time), then there won't be any stack growth and the point is moot. ~~~ Rapzid This is a form of pre-emptive scheduling. It doesn't happen when the stack size needs to increase, it causes the stack check to fail. A bit of classic Dmitry cleverness: [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ETuA2IOmnaQ4j81AtTGT40Y4...](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ETuA2IOmnaQ4j81AtTGT40Y4_Jr6_IDASEKg0t0dBR8/edit) [http://golang.org/doc/go1.2#preemption](http://golang.org/doc/go1.2#preemption) Anyway, I was just offering this scenario up as a bit of curious humour where somebody might think they are providing an escape hatch but the compiler in- lines their call foiling their plans :) ~~~ stcredzero Curious humor == Classic too clever by half.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
What is it like to work at Google? - pietro http://www.scripting.com/stories/2007/11/02/whatIsItLikeToWorkAtGoogle.html ====== tryagain I'm sure it's fantastic to work at Google, if you're the kind of person who wants to work in a big company. As for me, I made a cool mashup with the maps API, and they offered me a job, subject to approval by HR. You could tell by the way they were talking that they thought they were offering me a glimpse of a ticket to heaven. When I asked some clarifying questions, they didn't even bother to answer them. Silence for the insolent fool! So arrogant they undoubtedly are. People inside the company find it hard to understand why anyone would not leap at the chance to work there. I was actually considering it but they shut down the conversation, and I'm glad about it now. I turned the mashup into a company and it now brings in a lot more than even Google would consider paying me. ~~~ tocomment Can I see the mashup? ------ cstejerean Well, I got a job offer at Google and decided to turn it down. Sure, the food is great and you have everything you need but I think it's counter productive to starting a startup. You need to dislike your current job enough to want to do something else. I also agree with the author that humility is a scarce resource at Google. ------ ecuzzillo I recently met a very smart guy who has worked at Google for nearly a year, and he had almost nothing positive to say about it. In his whole large division, there seemed to be hardly anybody who actually got anything done. And, worse, there was no method for firing people who didn't do anything. ------ mynameishere Can someone explain why this got upmodded to #1? It reads like it was written by a 23 year old who just got turned down by google's HR department. And then: _Don't get me started about the developers. They hardly do any work, they get quoted in the press all the time as if they're gods, and make millions of dollars, and I do all the work_ Huh? Satire? I can't tell... ~~~ alaskamiller Because it's Dave Winer. ~~~ apathy His parents must have been clairvoyant when they passed on the family name. If the shoe fits... ------ ajkates One of my co-founders worked for Google this past summer. He didn't have one negative word to say about it. ------ MuddyMo Looks like Winer is pretty much in line with many in the YC community: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=75433> Might this be the milestone we look back on and eval: (not (not (= google evil))) ~~~ kirubakaran Is Google guilty of early optimization? :) ------ mhb Wow. His writing style is exceedingly annoying. And, either as a result of that or not, I feel as though this is the fifth installment of something he wrote of which I haven't read the preceding parts. ~~~ machine And what's with the tiny hash symbols at the end of every paragraph. I also found the article unpleasant. ~~~ henning Don't tell Dave Winer that to his face. He'll start rambling about OPML, outliners, and other shit only he and like 3 other people care about (i.e., way more people care about Haskell than they do about outliners from what I can tell). ------ apathy I worked at Google for a while, pre-IPO. There were an awful lot of very smart, capable people (or so it seemed, out of the 200 or so that were there when I arrived), and the challenges in operations simply do not exist at any other company I have seen (you try administering 100K servers, expanding by about another 1000-2000 per week, using typical methods, and let me know how it goes, for example (%)). The hardware engineering produced numerous clever patents, the software engineers produced stuff like MapReduce, and despite the North Korean Labor Camp work ethos, people were generally pretty happy. I have no idea if it's like that anymore. A lot of my friends who stuck around after the IPO report that it changed, that there arose much friction between the perceived old guard and the newer post-IPO employees. Maybe now that there are a zillion Googlers in a dozen or so countries (Ireland, Switzerland, India, China, and teh USA were already set up by the time I left), perhaps there's less camaraderie. Maybe the SarbOx role-based access control (which I helped implement as part of my job) means that you can't poke around MOMA and the Perforce tree after work hours and gawk at the new patents. It was a great place to work, but in the end I moved on because I didn't get the position I really wanted to be promoted to, and I noticed that all of the guys doing really, really cool stuff had completed some advanced study, more often than not in CS or comp bio. Given that machine learning doesn't seem to be going out of style, I have to try and remember that $80K or so is really not a very good salary for the amount of work that an SRE drone is responsible for, and figure out 'what next' instead. I didn't have a wife or a kid when I left Google. Now I do. It's harder now to embrace the risks of starting up a company, although I made a sizable chunk of change in the meantime simply by developing and selling a hobby website. If the idea is solid and the execution solid, there's at least some chance that even the 'just for fun' projects will end up putting a roof over your head (literally, in my case). I'm still conflicted, but I like to think that the mathematical and computational skills I've picked up in the meantime (especially modern statistical methodology, and applications in comp bio and machine learning) will continue to provide me with fun stuff to work on, regardless of what happens at Google. If it weren't on the opposite side of town, though, I'd be tempted to apply for a different job at Google once I finish my thesis. Hopefully I'll have something better to do with my life than be a cog, though. (%) ps. If you've ever wondered whether it's better to automate everything up- front at your Little Start-Up: yes it is. You're not going to have any more time to deal with it if you succeed, and if your company stagnates, automation will make it easier to walk away and do something else. ~~~ neilk What does Sarbanes-Oxley have to do with locking down parts of the source tree? I worked there a couple of years after you did, and there were a few parts of the source tree that were not public, but that was usually for crypto reasons. Config files, not algorithms. I'm not sure what to tell you about Google today versus then. Yes, you will be a cog, but in one of the shiniest and most well-maintained machines ever. There's a non-negligible chance of doing a significant 20% project. The one thing you'll notice is how much stricter the standards are for testing and code quality generally, while the codebase has expanded exponentially. Sometimes this results in code that's so great it practically makes you weep. Other times, especially for the really old projects, it becomes a morass of incomprehensibility but whose quality is carefully husbanded. I knew of a guy who spent weeks getting _one_ change into the basic webserving code, because running all the tests took an entire day, and by the time he was done, other people had committed new changes that broke his change. It was Xeno's Changelist. Maybe you can answer me one thing: in the early days, did people think they were a moral force for good in the world? As Dave Winer correctly notes, one of the amazing/insufferable things about Google is that many engineers there really think this -- _especially_ the pre-IPO crowd. It's the sort of attitude that enables them to open for business in totalitarian China, because how could you deny the Chinese the wonderfulness of Google? Also note the proliferation of teams which make promotional videos starring themselves. This started with a team that happens to have a very charismatic dude working for them, but it seems that everyone's doing it now. ~~~ apathy > in the early days, did people think they were a moral force for good in the > world Yes. I thought it was ridiculous at first, but after a while I decided it was nice to be part of a group that had a moral compass -- and actually used it. ------ augustus I don't know much about working at Google. But using Adwords and dealing with some of the folks at Google was really a pleasant experience. They really went out of their way to accommodate me. I was really surprised!! ~~~ axod If they're taking your money, they're going to be helpful ;) But agreed. Far better customer service than microsoft or yahoo. ------ shayan I just think Mr. Winer is not considering at what level you are at, meaning what kind of a position you'll be able to hold in these companies...I guess the experience will be quite different, so will the opportunities that will open up to you ------ tocomment What kind of salaries do people get working there?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Uncertainty Driven Testing (defending TDD a little bit) - blambeau https://medium.com/@blambeau/uncertainty-driven-testing-45936a80b99f ====== blambeau I'm the author. If you are a software developer or run a software company, how would you define your global test strategy? What and why do you test?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Android Wristwatch Rooted (Motorola Actv) - ck2 http://www.cmw.me/?q=node/55 ====== bane That's pretty nice hardware for a watch. It's surprising how locked down the initial user experience is. If it were $99 I'd probably give it a go. Looks like a fun little hacking device. (oh...and it has GPS, good battery life, bluetooth, heck I'd love one just for giving me walkabout direction when I'm in a city!)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Serial to Network Proxy (ser2net) - platz http://ser2net.sourceforge.net/ ====== noonespecial If you've already got Lua aboard like most of my servers, here's a clever way to do it in 47 lines of lua. <http://lua-users.org/wiki/SerialCommunication> (look at the bottom of the page). I spin it up to automatically talk to UPS's. ~~~ platz interesting, thanks!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
How can one manage thousands of IF…THEN…ELSE rules? - jarospisak http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/103659/how-can-one-manage-thousands-of-if-then-else-rules ====== wickedchicken Mildly unrelated, but I wanted to point out the awesomeness of the K-map[1] for handling simple minimization problems like these. Unfortunately, once your dimensions get large it becomes difficult for humans to visualize the optimizations, which is where Espresso[2][3] comes in handy. [1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karnaugh_map> [2] [http://embedded.eecs.berkeley.edu/pubs/downloads/espresso/in...](http://embedded.eecs.berkeley.edu/pubs/downloads/espresso/index.htm) [3] ftp://ftp.cs.man.ac.uk/pub/amulet/balsa/other-software/espresso- ab-1.0.tar.gz ~~~ pjscott Ooh, espresso. There was also a tool called eqntott for converting boolean logic expressions in a human-readable form into the truth tables that Espresso takes as input. The source code was written in an archaic dialect of C, but here's a resurrected version that should compile on modern compilers: <http://code.google.com/p/eqntott/> I haven't touched this code since 2008, so beware of grues, but I remember it being a really slick system for minimizing boolean logic when you combine eqntott with espresso. Just the thing for an electrical engineering student who's sick of doing K-maps, which described me nicely at the time. ~~~ wickedchicken "This program was originally written at Berkeley in the early 80s" This phrase gives me the same feeling I'd get from finding an old Thomas Bangalter track or something. ~~~ anamax Trivia - some core parts of espresso are/were part of specmarks, which are used to evaluate computer designs and implementations. ------ _delirium While I'm not sure thousands of if/then/else rules are actually the best knowledge representation for his domain (it sounds like he really wants to learn some model from data, in which case throwing some off-the-shelf machine learning may be a better fit), the area of "expert systems" may be relevant if they really are rules extracted directly from some source that need to be managed, such as a human domain expert. Expert systems were particularly big in AI in the '80s, and considerably less hot now, but still widely used in industry. There are a lot of issues that come up, most of which aren't really purely technical, such as: 1) how you extract knowledge from people who might know it; and 2) how you validate that the knowledge you've extracted is actually what they know, for example by validating that it produces the same decisions that they would make; and 3) how you allow updates/revisions to the knowledge base over time. Once you have the rules and some reason to believe that they're any good, actually managing and applying them can be done through one of several rule engines, such as Drools or Jess. The keyword "knowledge engineering" may also turn up relevant info. ~~~ Dn_Ab I don't think thousands should be taken literally. I don't think he has actually built it yet - I sort of saw it as an optimistic estimate =) ------ ck2 Is it just me? It's not a good question, it shows lack of core coding experience. For example a video game consists of millions of possibilities/results in movement based on environment - it's not approached as a collection of thousands of if/then/else statements. In fact the movement of cows seems very much like video game coding, it needs a "cow engine". ~~~ kamaal How do video games solve it? Do you have any material one can read to learn more about this? ~~~ seanmcdirmid Often through physics engines. You express a bunch of constraints then let a physics engine solve them on each time step (and sometimes across multiple time steps). Custom (non-physics) solutions involve declarative sets of constraints being solved by some sort of engine; such solutions often start to resemble physics engines even if the physical rules even if the constraints are not exactly physical. Learning how to use a physics engine, first, then how those physics engines work, is a good start to understanding these kinds of problems. Edit: I'm really surprised the stackexchange answers don't mention this. ~~~ flyinRyan What would be a good place to start learning about what you're describing here? ~~~ seanmcdirmid I would start with Erin Catto's Box2D. <http://box2d.org/> There are C#, Flash, Java versions if you aren't into C++. Lots of documentation on the web, but the getting started guide is good enough. ------ Dn_Ab Such a great question. Want to predict cow movement while taking into consideration sudden events, food and sun, using thousands of if then rules? Sounds like the perfect problem for one of the following tree learners that not only manage themselves but build the model for you, in order of suitability to the problem* : Genetic Programming ADTree Random Forest Decision Tree Most of the work would be in figuring out the best way to gather all the data. *opinion. ~~~ SeanLuke All machine learning techniques build models for you. ADTrees, Random Forests, and Decision trees are all classifiers, so they serve this guy's needs. Genetic Programming is not a machine learning technique: it is an optimization method for a very specific task and is quite unsuited for his purposes. ~~~ Dn_Ab No, I am certain you are confusing Genetic _Programming_ [1] for Genetic _Algorithms_ [2]. I am a fan (do a lot with them) of the prior but have never really been impressed by the latter. Wikipedia says Genetic Programming is a specialization of genetic algorithms where the objects are programs. I think this is the only thing I have ever seen where the specialization turns out to be more general than the parent. I'd also like to point out that I although all ML learns models, all those I gave can learn stuff as what amounts to a bunch of IF-THEN statements. Well GP need not be so limited. And Random Forests lose the trees in the forest (harder to interpret) but yeah, that's why I formed that particular list. [1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_programming> [2] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_algorithm> ~~~ SeanLuke > No, I am certain you are confusing Genetic Programming [1] for Genetic > Algorithms [2]. Trust me. I am not. ~~~ Dn_Ab Then you will know that Genetic Programming can be used for classification, structured learning, symbolic regression and even meta learning [1]. For classification you can build a program that searches for a program that best uses the input to predicts classes. I _have_ done this (there are better heuristics than the old kind that lead to really big dumb programs). Or you can combine boosting with Genetic Programming or you can use them in Learning Classifier Systems. All these lead to classification based on genetic programming. [1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurisko> As an aside, My definition of Machine learning is more inclusive than yours. I mean if you are going to separate out optimization then I guess you don't count stochastic gradient descent or Matrix factorization as part of machine learning? Machine learning is basically the combination of statistics and optimization where you can work with a lot of data and the output of your computation is more important than the model. ------ exDM69 I suggested using Prolog in the comments. His problem description was not quite good enough for me to assess whether or not Prolog will be a good choice, but at least it's a candidate. A Prolog program is essentially a list of rules that are written as an implication. Something like: moves_to(Cow, Location) :- hungry(Cow), current_location(Cow, OldLoc), food_in(OldLoc, OldFood), food_in(Location, Food), Food > OldFood. In human language: a cow moves to a location if it's hungry and there's more food in that location than in current location. I should probably write a proper answer. edit: Added a proper answer to the stackoverflow with an almost complete introductory Prolog example. It's waiting for your upvotes :) ~~~ cartosys And we're waiting for a link. ~~~ exDM69 There you go: <http://programmers.stackexchange.com/a/165126/65434> ------ lutusp You really don't want to think of this in terms of IF ... THEN ... ELSE but as individual binary or multi-path choices. These are most efficiently handled with hash tables that choose a route through a logic diagram in a way that is more intuitive than If ... THEN ... ELSE as well as more efficient. You start by writing a logic flowchart that you understand, then you reduce the logic flowchart to code, usually automatically. This is how a logic flowchart looks: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LampFlowchart.svg> Here is the article it appears in: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowchart> The single most important parts of this process are: 1\. That you understand the logic diagram and see that it meets the program's requirements. 2\. That there is a way to turn the logic flowchart into code, ideally without human intervention. 3\. That the rebuild time be short between adding a new logical step and testing the resulting program. ~~~ JoeAltmaier Maybe I'm off the mark, but whenever I see a long runon procedure full of if- then-else, I think "This is a job for a state machine!" With that approach, you can exhaustively provide actions for every combination of states and events. You can also immediately identify the code responsible for handling any state+event. You can also track which state+event transitions have been tested automatically. ~~~ lutusp > Maybe I'm off the mark, but whenever I see a long runon procedure full of > if-then-else, I think "This is a job for a state machine!" I'm a big fan of state machines, but systems like this are often multitasking and (for all practical purposes) stateless. OTOH it might be more accurate to say their state is formally unpredictable. A system like the one being described would be more like a multi-threaded critical-path flowchart, where multiple processes are active at a given time. And at any time a high-level linear programming result might mandate a change of strategy based on available resources, even though individual processes continued to follow the tactical flowchart. So even though a state machine approach looks attractive (as it always does), it's a matter of deciding how many states and how many levels. Because of the nature of the original problem and the number of connections with everyday reality, the fact that it was a state machine might escape the attention of even a careful observer. ------ joe_the_user Even with the clue that he wants to "predict how cows move around in any landscape", his description seems like it wouldn't be enough any definite design advice. What do the states of the cows and the landscape look like? What is changed by the if-then-else results. Does he already have his rules? Is this for a biology project or a video game, etc. You could use a finite automaton system, an array of cow-states, a cow DSL or something else depending on the answers to these and other questions. [insert joke about "till the cows come home"] ~~~ ShabbyDoo Yes. The piece missing for me in most answers I've seen is eventing. Does one pump a series of events/state changes into the CowModel and see what actions pop-out? Does the model involve interactions with other cows where the actions of one cow cause actions of others? If so, one must have an event queue to handle chain reactions. How discrete are the events? Is there a "temp is 89F" event where, for every N minutes the cow is in that temperature in direct exposure, it becomes more likely to seek shade? If so, the "it is 89F" event must be triggered multiple times. And, such a rule requires that the past states of the cow be retained. I think the if/then/else logic is only part of the solution to a simulation problem of this sort. ------ gavanwoolery A finite state machine is actually not a great solution for this particular problem (in fact, FSMs are often over-used), IMHO. An expert system is a far better solution (as one commenter mentioned). The problem with a FSM is that you still must explicitly specify ALL of the nodes (without some complex algorithm to automate such a task). An expert system, like prolog, only requires you to state all of the rules, and then it will figure out any query for you (via propositional logic, backwards chaining, etc). The number of nodes typically grows exponentially with the number of rules (if the rules are inter-related), so for a problem of any significant size an expert system would probably be the method of choice. ------ JustLikeThat My favorite part is the third comment in on the question: "How can one manage thousands of IF…THEN…ELSE rules? By developing a drinking problem" ~~~ indiecore That solution is generalizable to the entire domain of computer science. ------ tylermauthe Such a great answer. This is why I love Stack Exchange. ~~~ psingh agree. ------ Swizec Wouldn't this best be handled by something like a decision tree? <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_tree> It's basically thousands of if-this-then-that statements, but dressed up into something you can reason about and most importantly train and build automagically. ------ dave_sullivan This really sounds like a machine learning problem--why hand engineer all these rules yourself (which can be error prone in any case) when a program could do it for you? If you can figure out how to get a large data set together and come up with a good general representation of the data, you're half way there. I'd consider taking a look at recurrent neural networks if you're looking at your data as a time series or if its more of a static problem that doesn't take into account the last N things that came before, you might consider tree based methods or even DBNs if you can get a lot of data together (say 50000-100000 samples) Potential pitfall: if you're using a NN based approach, you will judge results based on test performance, but you won't get as much insight into the "rules" your network has learned. ------ sandGorgon I have an axiom "any sufficiently complex if-then-else ruleset can be modeled as a search problem with boosts". I have modeled a logistics lookup system (assign "best" courier for an ecommerce setup) using a search solution. The rules were modeled as documents in a search index and looked up using weights. Fundamentally, what I did was flatten an if-then-else hierarchy and assign weights based on (roughly) level of nesting. The con of this model is obvious - it is at best a heuristic. However, with clever overrides built in (as a separate search index?), you can get pretty close to the ideal solution. The pro of this model is scalability - when your rules are in millions, this system scales beautifully. ------ instakill The question is an interesting one but it's futile in its context. You can't build a prediction engine for cattle movement. Adding factors like weather, food etc. seems well and dandy but there's hundreds if not thousands of other factors that are definitely going to be missing and that will render the prediction events pointless. Never mind the fact that you can throw in black swan type of events into the mix or just unknown unknowns you could never think of (maybe a cow has a frog phobia and panics when it sees the frog and starts a stampede or whatever it is that cattle do). ~~~ mmcnickle You can't predict how an _individual_ cow will move, but it's perfectly acceptable to use models to predict how cattle generally move. Similar to the way we use models to predict how humans navigate hallways and find paths across grass.[1] When you have a bulk of interacting particles, it tends to remove the "personality" of the individual, leaving you with how the group as a whole will move. Philip Ball's (former editor of Nature) book _Critical Mass_ [2] is an excellent read about the interesting effects that happen when you look at large number of complex interacting actors. He discusses the effects in traffic, pedestrian models, finance, plant growth etc. I highly recommend it. [1]<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SmRBTJ-jeU> This is just a video I picked out quickly, there are much better resources, I just can't find them on my phone. [2][http://www.amazon.co.uk/Critical-Mass-Thing-Leads- Another/dp...](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Critical-Mass-Thing-Leads- Another/dp/0099457865/) ------ mark_l_watson I am late to this discussion, but I would like to ad my experiences with compiling rules to a Rete network. I have done a lot of hacking on the old Lisp OPS5 code and found it easy to work with, once you read and understood Charles Forgy's papers. I hacked OPS5 to support multiple data worlds and a few other enhancements for specific projects. The more modern Rete based software projects are probably also easy to work with. ------ xarien Man, I must be getting old, first thing I thought of when I saw the question was a FSM implemented with function pointers in C. ------ ynniv If only these questions appeared on one's résumé... ~~~ sliverstorm What, are you insinuating that asking about great big if-then-else trees means you'd never hire that person? Because, what, you've never been a complete novice programmer before? Considering the question-asker has a specific problem to solve, I would even hazard they probably aren't a programmer by trade. ~~~ jimbobimbo I'd say the fact that person is asking this question is a very good sign - they have a gut feeling that something's off with IF-THEN spaghetti. ~~~ ynniv ... a very good sign that they're still too green. When did HN become so touchy-freely? It's important that people start learning somewhere. If you show any interest in programming, I highly recommend learning more. However, there comes a time when you must have a certain amount of experience. This is a profession where important things are made. Even people who should know better end up building systems that leak our sensitive personal information, or let others impersonate us. I didn't say that such a person shouldn't be hired, but I certainly implied that the original question is a better indicator of their capability than the always positive keyword soup and "years experience" that many people slather on their résumé. If "avoiding IF-THEN spaghetti" is all you require from contributors, fine. Let's not pretend that this is better than an early high school effort. ------ yabadab This problem smells like one that should be tackled with a supervised ML approach. Even something as simple as a Decision Tree might be enough? ~~~ kos_mos of course this is a machine learning problem. ------ tlogan Prolog.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Don't get an internship. Start a business. - veastley http://www.sean-johnson.com/dont-get-an-internship-start-a-business/ ====== calinet6 _Are you insane?_ Yeah, you'll learn by doing. You'll probably learn by failing. That's all well and good, you'll likely learn a lot. But you can learn this also by interning at an existing business, learning how they do things, learning what they do wrong and what they do right. You'll bask in the experience of people who have already done this, and from their partners and connections. If you want to learn from a startup, then intern or work at a startup. Outright cutting off this possibly important and valuable experience is borderline insane. This is not an absolute. This one-sided recommendation should be taken with a spoon of salt. Both internship and entrepreneurship are valuable experiences. It's entirely dependent on who you are, what you're interested in doing, and the opportunities you find are open to you. ~~~ ank286 I couldn't get myself to click on the article. It just sounds like a bad idea. Industry experience is so valuable even as an entrepreneur. You learn about the efficiencies and inefficiencies of industry and it can only help you run your operation better. ~~~ guylhem Wrong. You learn even better when you figure things out by yourself. It's called "outside of the box" thinking for a reason. If you join the box, it ain't outside the box. ~~~ pavel_lishin > Wrong. You learn even better when you figure things out by yourself. Assuming you figure out the correct answer. ------ chatmasta I've had my own business since I was 15 and also multiple internships. You can do both, and if possible, you should. Never underestimate what you can learn as an employee. This is especially true as a software engineer. Once you work with a talented team of engineers at an established company, you realize that you don't actually know anything. You will learn more in a summer internship than you will in any CS class or teaching yourself. ~~~ jholman I agree, especially about "you can do _both_ , and if possible, _you should_ ". I think you're right, chatmasta, about the benefits of being an employee, especially in the context of a given craft. This is exactly what I was thinking between reading the title of the article, and reading the article. Just yesterday on HN there was a very moving confessional about hacking on a production DB without transactional safety, and everyone agreed: in a sane world, junior staff learn not to do this from senior staff, rather than just trying crap and getting burned. How many things are there left to get burned on? Oh my FSM, so many. Please, please, let me learn from experienced hands, and reinvent as few wheels as possible. But, that said, I found this article really convincing. I think all of TFA's points about the benefits of early -- crappy -- entrepreneurship are very compelling. Far more compelling than I expected. When I look around at people who're doing better (at their careers and their contributions to the world in general) than me, and people who're doing worse than me, my feeling is this: the strengths mentioned in the article (selling, managing, and focus on creating value ) are _really_ big differentiators in determining success and impact. I've never had my own business, so maybe I dunno what's up. ------ jiggy2011 This seems to be the trendy advice to give to young people now, "go start a business straight out of college!". But speaking as somebody who relatively recently set one up, this seems to ignore how expensive it can be to get even a simple business off the ground without someone willing to help bankroll you to begin with. No, you don't need millions of dollars but you probably need _at least_ a couple of thousand $ spare to cover your living expenses for a few months + whatever up front costs you need to fork out on. You get problems like clients who pay very late, or for whatever reason try and not pay you at all. And since you're the new guy with no track record people don't want to give you much up front and know you're going to struggle to lawyer up so put you at the bottom of the payment list. Not the sort of money who somebody who is likely without savings (and who probably also has debt) is likely to be able to spare. Also the advantage of having a job _before_ you go out on your own is that you already have some track record with a company people have (hopefully) heard of as well as more connections and hopefully knowledge that you have acquired on someone elses dime. ------ bicx Cool idea, but I can't help but wonder about the whole movement around pushing people toward management or leadership. Sure, it's great to find those of us who are naturally talented in that area. However, in a lot of the big companies I'm familiar with (like my previous employer), there was a glut of "leadership" made mostly of people who shouldn't be leading. Tons of middle management. It separated the regular working employees so far from the origin of their assignments that no one really felt motivated to do more than the minimum. Zero innovation from actual developers, since the system was highly resistant to ideas that originated from below rather than from above. Great leaders are a vital asset, but transforming every person into a leader is akin to alchemy. And remember, gold is only of higher value because of its relative scarcity, not because it is intrinsically better than other metals. :) ------ blt I feel bad for the people whose houses he painted. This guy probably did a shitty job. They're going to need to repaint sooner than they should. Guess we're supposed to be proud of him for swindling/pressuring people into buying a subpar service. Not to mention the employees who are lured into half-baked businesses and lose months of their lives to an incompetent "entrepreneur". ~~~ guylhem This says more about you than about the OP. If you love to do a good job, and you find yourself without experience, you will spend more time on it, taking care about the details a professional will know to overlook. ------ guylhem The article is spot on. I create a consultancy during my studies, in ... 2001!! Best learning experience ever- tough times help make a tough mind, and the best part is after university cost and life cost, it even left a profit. My clients were satisfied, and kept coming back for more - which made me raise prices (market demand you know). And what can I say about the referrals- that _really_ make one feel proud, because it means you did a good job not only by your own standards, but also by the other person standard, enough than he feels like taking a risk and recommending you to friends & family. Basically, internship is passive. Entrepreneurship is active. If you want to be a salaryman, you should really do an internship. If you don't, you know what you have to do. ------ smokinjoe I tried sub-contracting and I didn't know what I didn't know. It was a disaster. I didn't even have to worry about getting clients and I still didn't succeed or really take much away from the whole experience other than piles of stress. ~~~ jabbernotty Would you mind expanding on your experience? I would really appreciate it. ~~~ smokinjoe Sure! I tried sub-contracting in Massachusetts for a guy who did Computer Repair. A lot of people/businesses used him and after some time started asking whether he could put together websites for them (you know, because all computer work is roughly the same). Well, he looked me up and I joined him as the web team. I came on looking to expand on my development abilities, but I soon realized that very little of the is spent actually sitting and programming. There was meeting with customers, getting requirements, creating some sort of plan then figuring out how to break it all into a roadmap/schedule where the delivery is satisfactory and on the proper date. I had little to zero experience in any of those tasks. I struggled to gain comfort during meetings and lacked confidence while I would be setting up the schedule, I assume it stemmed from my beginner status and an overall lack of successfully completed tasks to look back on (whether as a sub-contractor or just even hobby projects). There were times I'd ask my father for advice (he had started a company that was rather successful), read a book or two, tried some online resources, but really, I was probably just too young and not wired to be a sub-contractor at that point in my life. Sometimes I do look back and see the mistakes I made and what I could have done to correct them, so in a way, it was a great learning experience - but not in the area that I wanted. I've since done some "internships" (one where I was paid less than minimum wage and worked full days - but I really wanted a job experience) and realized that I came away with way more than I could have ever discerned from my experiences as a sub-contractor. However, I strongly believe this was due to the fact that I wasn't all that great development back then. Nowadays, I find that the business aspects come a lot easier now that my programming/development understanding are eons beyond what they were even 4-5 years ago. I should also make certain to mention that my experiences are my own - I wouldn't be surprised if someone younger than I were thrust into that situation and would came out successful. However, given my past personal experience (and not even running my own business) I have to hesitate at the article's implication. Anyway, I hope that was some good info - feel free to ask any questions if you'd like, I'll do my absolute best to answer. ------ MicahWedemeyer I've heard this expressed several different ways, like creating your own job or learning by jumping right in, and it always completely ignores the value of professional experience. Internships and first jobs are all about learning the realities of the work world and building up your professional network. If you're trying to build a B2B SaaS app, it really helps when you understand at least one of those "B"s instead of just guessing. There will always be anecdotes of "I started my first business at 14 and have been my own boss ever since" but my (anecdotal) experience shows that most successful entrepreneurs are people who leverage their professional experience and network in order to get their first customers, co-founders, and so forth. ~~~ dechols "Don't write something informative and realistic, make a call to arms!" The whole point of an internship (or underpaid, monkey coder job) is to get your foot in the door, to get some residue on your resume, and to work with a real team trying to deliver something for other people. You're naive if you think that you, by yourself, can imitate the processes, procedures, best practices, tools, standards, guides, and mechanisms that a large company can provide, and learn from it all to boot. I'm all about "hoisting yourself up from your own bootstraps", but sometimes you need other people. Internships are about immersing yourself with other people, not trying to take the mantle of some superhero and thinking it's going to help you fly better. ------ johngalt You could spend all day arguing about where you will learn more, but what you really gain is perspective. Even if you decide that you never want to run a business again you'll be a more effective employee. Without that perspective you'll probably have critically flawed ideas about how businesses work. ------ chigoodrich Rallying cry for a generation. Well worth passing around as a manifesto.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Mozilla tries ads in Firefox again, now powered by Pocket recommendations - amelius https://www.cnet.com/news/mozilla-tries-ads-in-firefox-again-now-powered-by-pocket-website-recommendations/ ====== Rjevski They are loosing market share more and more and yet they go on with this stupidity. Part of the market share loss is average users switching to Chrome - they can't do much about that, but the power users group is (or was) Mozilla's best asset, and yet they're pissing off that group with pretty much every release. ------ breakingcups Well shit. Who wants to bet on when the first ad-removal fork appears? "now Firefox itself will offer new recommendations to sponsored sites based on your browsing history. It performs that assessment privately in the browser, Mozilla said." I don't believe this can ever be water-tight. Where do the ads get fetched from? Won't anyone who is able to snoop on that request (be it Mozilla, an ad network or (in case of an https failure) a third party) be able to deduce privacy-compromising information from the ad being requested itself? Eg. If an advertisement is requested for a baby-crib (or a wider baby- category), you an as an advertiser deduce that the other end might (soon) be a parent. The fact that Mozilla thinks it's able to preserve privacy by doing it in- house scares me. I don't want to trust _any_ company with my browsing history or the processing thereof. If Mozilla decides it's in the ad business itself, I don't care how they initially try to preserve privacy by generating profiles in the browser itself. They will become an ad company with the same perverse incentives as Google and all the other advertising companies. ~~~ RunningDroid I don't think anyone will make an ad removal fork because the ads are trivial to disable. [https://help.getpocket.com/article/1142-firefox-new-tab- reco...](https://help.getpocket.com/article/1142-firefox-new-tab- recommendations#sponsoredstories) ------ shabbyrobe Firefox was the last of the players that mattered that could still be described as a "user agent". That's no longer true. ------ RunningDroid What the article doesn't mention is these ads don't show up if the "Recommended by Pocket" checkbox in the New Tab Preferences is unchecked. [https://help.getpocket.com/article/1142-firefox-new-tab- reco...](https://help.getpocket.com/article/1142-firefox-new-tab- recommendations#sponsoredstories)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
HTML Parser – Flat HTML to Pug, Jinja2 and Blade Templates - devSm0ke https://github.com/app-generator/html-parser ====== orf I wonder how many people just upvoted this based on the keywords in the title. Because... the github repo is empty. There's a readme and a license file, it was created 9 hours ago, has a bunch of typos, and contains as many references as possible to "AppSeed". To confuse matters more, the "cutting edge html parser" link (what???) links back to this seemingly empty repo. ------ devSm0ke Sorry for the typos. I will update the readme. I was working on the tool for more than 1 year. A short demo here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnO1AozqyPA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnO1AozqyPA) ------ hrbf Using a GitHub repo as a marketing platform for a paid service asking $159/month. Great work. Not. ------ heyalexej Great work! A readme with a link to a landing page linking back to the readme. ~~~ barnabask All of the app-generator repos are the same, as far as I can tell: [https://github.com/app-generator](https://github.com/app-generator) What gives? ~~~ devSm0ke This DEMO shows more: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnO1AozqyPA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnO1AozqyPA) I'm working on this for more than 1 year ~~~ heyalexej What's the purpose of this submission though? ~~~ devSm0ke I mean the work behind, is more than a slim readme. Still testing & improving the tool. When I have something usable, I will commit the sources.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: How do you stay sane, when developing apps for companies? - cronjobma I've been developing apps for clients for some time, then I stopped because the clients were driving me nuts. How do you guys stay sane when working for clients? How do you structure your workflow? ====== muzuq Unfortunately I find this a reality of working, no matter it be in development or not. People suck. The best thing I ever learned to do was leave my work at work. Don't take it home with you. I do bring a journal home, in case I have a brilliant idea but outside of that I don't think about work, I don't talk about work, I don't do work outside of work. If I do happen to have a brilliant idea at home, I write it down then forget it. Flesh out the idea when you're working. It may seem small, but it's one of the only things that has kept me sane. ------ jenkstom Mostly by keeping your ego out of it. Identify and mitigate risks, including emotional ones. ------ borplk So what did you do after stopping?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Facebook Studio - Facebook's New Community for Marketers, Creatives, and Fans - citizenkeys http://www.facebook-studio.com/ ====== whimsy Most sites are just ad-supported. I know this is sort of a logical progression, but a site specifically for browsing random ads seems a little weird. Is that just me? ~~~ zalew Most sites are just app-supported. I know this is sort of a logical progression, but a site specifically for browsing random applications seems a little weird. Is that just me? Seriously, every web industry has it's galleries, ad websites have been for ages, even ones with banners only <http://bannerblog.com.au/> ------ currywurst Did anyone feel that the page design is a bit 'off'? I had to re-check to see if this was not some knock-off site. ------ paulnelligan The title is misleading - it's not actually facebook's community is it?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Pluto.jl – a reactive, lightweight, simple notebook - dunefox https://github.com/fonsp/Pluto.jl ====== jakobnissen I've switched from Jupyter to Pluto recently. Here's a few experiences with it. * The fact that I can actually use the source files later because they're just Julia files is incredibly useful. I often copy-paste from them into actual REPL-code, and sometimes I just polish the notebook until its source becomes usable as a command-line tool. * I like the reactive notebook concept. It does really help with bugs * Pluto is still rough around the edges. Too few keyboard shortcuts. Buttons and text are tiny, afloat in an ocean of useless whitespace. pushing to LOAD_PATH doesn't work properly. Pluto is a very young project and just now gaining attention in the Julia community, so I'm confident these usability issues will improve. ~~~ cpsempek The inability to simply import jupyter notebooks as python files has always been a point of friction for me, I’m glad to see this is a main feature for Pluto. ~~~ eigenspace I'm not sure if Python has something like this, but in julia we have [https://github.com/stevengj/NBInclude.jl](https://github.com/stevengj/NBInclude.jl) which allows us to import jupyter notebooks like regular files. ~~~ kkylin I did not know about this. Nice. Thanks! ------ vanderZwan Really happy to see that the good ideas from Observable notebooks are being copied elsewhere. I don't use Julia myself at the moment (although I think it's a beautiful language), but I know some people who will be very happy with this! Also, the playful enthusiasm in the presentation video linked in the description just makes me smile: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAF8DjrQSSk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAF8DjrQSSk) ~~~ benhurmarcel Very interesting, thanks. I don't understand the point of the "reactive" cell order, instead of conventionally doing top to bottom. It seems like it goes against the idea of "the program state being completely described by the code you see". ~~~ vanderZwan So in the context of these notebooks it is actually quite useful to not depend on cell order, because the idea is that notebooks aren't simply programs or scripts, they are (potentially interactive) _documents_. You can write an article that presents the results of your script, with cells that contain text, interactive widgets and plots at the top, and put the code and data that generates these plots in "appendix" cells below that. Observable, a "JavaScript ancestor" of Pluto.js, has plenty examples of these: [https://observablehq.com](https://observablehq.com) Also, I guess that you haven't used notebook environments like Jupyter before, so a bit of historical context might help. In Jupyter, cells _aren 't_ necessarily executed top-to-bottom, they are executed when the user asks it too. The result is then stored in the global state (well, assuming there is a global variable that the data is assigned to). This means that cells that depend on other cells _also_ depend on the order in which those cells were executed. Worse still, if you write your notebook in a sloppy manner, you can end up with a state that you cannot reproduce from the still-remaining code (for example, you can have variables A and B, B is generated from the result of A, then you remove A. Because Jupyter is not reactive this does not update B, so your notebook keeps working just fine... until you decide to edit B). So previously, notebook-like environments made it really easy to introduce bugs like this. With reactive cells you don't have to think of state. It's kind of like pure functional programming: it removes global side-effects. And note how on a technical level, making cells execute top-to-bottom is really just very a simple way to enforce that cells must executed in order of dependency! So either option insists that this global-state-that-does-not-respect- dependencies is a big problem that should be avoided, they just present different solutions for the problem. ~~~ benhurmarcel Thanks a lot for the write-up. ------ yoavz This looks excellent. In my opinion, these kinds of apps are the future of data science / data analyst work. Forget no-code, just enable these professionals to work in a single programming language that they're familar with and give them visualization superpowers. The Python ecosystem has [https://www.streamlit.io/](https://www.streamlit.io/) and [https://gradio.app/](https://gradio.app/) now. R has [https://shiny.rstudio.com/](https://shiny.rstudio.com/). I think we'll see more. ------ mark_l_watson Looks good but I haven’t tried it yet. Julia is a remarkable programming language, and pure Julia projects like this show that it is also good for general purpose development. I want to try this combined with the Flux DL library. ------ joshday I've been using Pluto for several weeks and I absolutely love it for quickly iterating on plots and making small UIs for interactively showing off results. It's altogether a much better experience than Jupyter for me. ~~~ xiaodai wonder if you have tried it on large datasets given ur background. Does it work well with large-datasets given its reactive nature? ~~~ joshday Everything is cached unless something upstream changes, so it should work just fine with big datasets. I've only been using relatively small datasets so far, though. ------ Tarq0n Sounds like they fixed a bunch of things that are broken about Jupyter notebooks. I still don't understand why anyone would want to do work in their browser though. ~~~ WolfOliver would be curious what Jupyter notebooks things are better with Pluto.jl, can you name some concrete points? ~~~ celrod 1\. Dependency graph for cells, letting it automatically rerun what's needed when you change one. This keeps everything up to date. 2\. git-friendly. ~~~ WolfOliver I wonder how they are doing it? simply re-evaluating every cell? ~~~ ddragon It's mentioned in the video [1], it does static analysis of the code to create a graph of dependencies (for example which cell uses a variable defined by another cell), so when you update any cell it will find what cells are affected by the change (the downstream nodes on a directed acyclic graph) and only evals the code on them (instead of running everything). Julia is particularly good for those kind of code analysis since it's a very Lispy language. It also does a trick of creating new modules to manipulate scope to make deleted variables/import/cells invisible (and therefore free to be garbage collected). [1] [https://youtu.be/IAF8DjrQSSk?t=596](https://youtu.be/IAF8DjrQSSk?t=596) ------ UncleOxidant Just tried it. A couple of things. Why are results displayed above the code cell instead of below it (as in Jupyter/IPython)? Was a bit confusing at first. I'm noticing it crashes a lot. Get messages like: Worker 2 terminated. Distributed.ProcessExitedException(2) Really like the reactive aspect, though. ~~~ 3JPLW > Why are results displayed above the code cell instead of below it (as in > Jupyter/IPython)? Was a bit confusing at first. I also strongly agreed with this at first, but after working with it some more I've found it compelling. The key mental model is to think of the code as something akin to a "figure caption." ------ sradman Pluto.jl appears to be a Julia centric notebook alternative to Jupyter and its multi-language Kernels, including IJulia [1]. I imagine there are many trade- offs between the two but the primary one I see is the runtime size/Python- dependencies of Jupyter versus the reach of the platform. There is also a great deal of overlap between IDEs and Notebook platforms. [1] [https://github.com/JuliaLang/IJulia.jl](https://github.com/JuliaLang/IJulia.jl) Edit: "pure Julia" => "Julia centric" based on jakobnissen's comment ~~~ jakobnissen Not quite. Pluto is also built on JavaScript (of course, since it's a browser notebook). The main advantages of Pluto is that * The sources files are executable Julia files with minimal metadata, so it plays nice with Git. Also, the code of the source files is ordered to reflect the execution order of the cells, to keep the source code and the notebook in sync. * It attempts to remove all global state. If you change a cell, and dependent cells will change as well (similar to Excel). This makes bugs less likely. ~~~ sradman Git friendly native Julia files and clean cell reordering/refactoring are very nice features. Julia seems like a compelling data science platform, especially for greenfield projects. ------ ScottPJones One thing that is pretty great about Pluto.jl, is how responsive the author is (Fons van der Plas, or @fonsp on GitHub). I've been able to get great suggestions from him (as well as the fast growing community of Pluto users) on Zulip discussion group for Julia ([https://julialang.zulipchat.com](https://julialang.zulipchat.com)) ------ abhayhegde Seems really smooth. I would like to see how does this scale with larger chunks of codes. Is there any benchmark comparisons? ~~~ vanderZwan It just runs Julia under the hood, so I would expect it to be simply as fast as Julia (assuming that the data processing is the more significant bottleneck compared to the HTML output that is used to present the results). Performance more likely affected by the _way_ the data is processed than the language's speed. From what I understand, results of cells are cached though, and they don't update unless something upstream changes, so there is a form of memoization happening. Which of course also has both implications for performance as well as memory usage. ------ muska3 This would be better if there was VS Code integration with their notebook system. Personally, I will never code in a web browser and don't understand how people can do so with large code bases. ~~~ fishmaster Nobody has "a large codebase" in a notebook. They're for explorative programming and visualisations and they're excellent for that. And VS Code is technically a web browser, so... ------ uoaei The thing that still frustrates me about Pluto is that I have to put a `begin ... end` block in each cell where I want multiple commands to run. It would be nice if it ran more like Jupyter notebooks in this sense, where blocks can be _blocks_ of code and not individual lines. ------ xvilka Imagine now the same but without HTML/CSS/JS - using a native 2D and 3D rendering, with acceleration. That would be blazingly fast. ------ uoaei Pluto is hard to do R&D but great if you want to compose a report using existing code.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Generalist screencast series for mid-to-senior developers? - mmanfrin I recently binged through Destroy All Software's series on Computation, which was eye opening, and now I want more, but it seems most are either aimed at juniors (code school) or about specific technologies.<p>Any recommendations? ====== itamarst Tooting my own horn, some of the stuff I've done is aimed at more experienced people, and I'm not really interested in teaching specific technologies so much as skills and ways of thinking. E.g.: * Blog post on object ownership's different uses and limitations in different languages: [https://codewithoutrules.com/2017/01/26/object-ownership/](https://codewithoutrules.com/2017/01/26/object-ownership/) * Blog post on bug reporting as an important process in software development: [https://codewithoutrules.com/2017/02/10/voice-exit-user-rete...](https://codewithoutrules.com/2017/02/10/voice-exit-user-retention/) * Recorded talk on testing, the big picture (first talk here): [https://codewithoutrules.com/talks/](https://codewithoutrules.com/talks/)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Peter Thiel’s advice on startups - StylifyYourBlog https://medium.com/@paulmillr/zero-to-one-summary-8dbda22e1559 ====== jrochkind1 > You may argue that monopolies are bad, but... The "but" is all BS. The answer is "You might argue that monopolies are bad, but you're thinking like a consumer not a company. Monopolies are good for you as a company because they result in profits, which is the whole point here. Remember that 17-cent-per-ticket-profit figure from the last sentance? That might be a good number for consumers, but it sure isn't for the airlines. You're starting a company, think like a company." ~~~ api It seems like a special case of the paradox of thrift: it's rational to save, but if everyone saves nobody can save because for one to save another must spend. (Even if you don't like some of Keynes other ideas, this was one of his key insights. The other is the importance of the velocity of money in the wealth of societies. Superficially Saudi Arabia looks richer than the US because per capita it has more savings, but it's actually poorer because monetary velocity is lower. Wealth is a verb, not a noun.) In this case you want to be a monopoly, but you want all your suppliers and anyone else you purchase from to be subject to brutal competition. Or as an employee, you want _your_ employer to be a monopoly (and your own skills to be scarce in the labor market) but you want the rest of the market to be brutally competitive. You can see this in the net neutrality debate. Those who run the Internet want to monopolize and differentiate. Those who use the Internet -- including most non-carrier Internet companies -- want them to be pure commodities subject to crushing competition. The ideal for you the user, or for Netflix or Google, would be to have free broadband Internet access everywhere. Paradoxes are the norm not the exception in complex systems fields like economics, ecology, and evolutionary dynamics. Most things involve some sort of paradoxical catch-22, trade-off, trichotomy, or N-chotomy. Thiel is just showing us this paradox from a different perspective than we're normally accustomed to thinking about it. It is the proper perspective for an entrepreneur-- you want to find _something_ that can be leveraged to create a monopoly so you can accumulate capital and income enough to move on to the next things before your monopoly status is challenged. ~~~ jiggy2011 The immigration debates in other threads are another example of this, and to an extent debates about intellectual property. ------ staunch > _Creative monopolists give customers more choices by adding entirely new > categories of products. Microsoft had a huge monopoly in operating systems. > At the same time, Apple’s iOS & Google’s Android emerged and overtook > operating system dominance._ He uses the word monopoly but all he's talking about is proprietary advantage. Starbucks doesn't have a monopoly on coffee, and yet they're absolutely dominant due to their business methods and brand. Unless you start playing semantic games by saying that Starbucks has a monopoly on the use of the Starbrucks brand. Or Apple's hugely profitable PC sales are only possible due to their monopoly usage of Apple's OSX. ------ therealdrag0 This is a good summary of the book and a sufficient alternative to actually reading it. Source: Read it last week. ------ justinzollars After reading this book, this is a very good summary.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Google Trends: Pokemon More Relevant Than Trump, Clinton - gk1 http://blog.plot.ly/post/147939406977/google-trends-pokemon-more-relevant-than-trump ====== niftich Well, one's going to affect your life significantly for the next 4 years, while the others are just politicians /s Despite the catchy headline, I think more interesting is their 8th graph showing searches for 'gun control' being a lot more frequent in per-capita higher gun ownership states like Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana, and their 10th graph showing searches for 'Brexit' being much, much more prevalent in states that have a large number of jobs in finance like New York, Connecticut, and Illinois. Those graphs actually offer meaningful insight.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Twitter OAuth Outage Was A Vulnerability In OAuth Itself - tptacek http://groups.google.com/group/twitter-api-announce/browse_thread/thread/d2ee68712e015041 ====== tybris These community-designed security protocols make me really tired. Just leave it to the experts. ------ moeffju The advisory is up at <http://oauth.net/advisories/2009-1> and the blogs are abuzz with more (or, in enough cases, less) information. Basically, the problem is that an attacker can keep a request token around and have the victim complete the authentication with the old request token, thus gaining authorization in the victim's name. There is no way for the consumer to tell what's going on, currently. The suggested workarounds are monitoring and a strong statement about starting Auth workflows from untrusted places. But we all know how well those work. I'm curious about OAuth 1.1 or whatever. ------ briansmith Didn't _any_ qualified security researchers do a security assessment of OAuth when it was in development? This spec was finalized in 2007 which means we've had at least two years to find this _obvious_ problem. We've known from the start that OAuth and OpenID are vulnerable to various social engineering attacks, and I guess the communities using each have accepted that as the lesser of two evils. But, you know, somebody has to check that the protocol actually works at least a little. ------ timdorr Any blackhats have any clues as to what this is about? I'm too impatient to wait 7.5 hours :P ~~~ tptacek The CNet article claims the vulnerability involves "social engineering" attacks that will coerce users into giving up personal information. "Social engineering" in web apps is usually code for "landmine links", and the OAuth protocol itself doesn't communicate any user information of any sort (just an opaque token).	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Response to the NYTimes redesign article by Martin Belam of the Guardian - benjaminasmith http://www.currybet.net/cbet_blog/2011/07/andy-news-redux.php ====== corin_ Users want to see the people in the stories, not the people writing them. Truthfully I hope this is a case where media people aren't giving enough credit to their audience (as opposed to a case where I'm just a minority - though I suspect this is more the case). I mean, in a story, sure, pictures can be great. But when deciding which story to read, e.g. when reading a list of headlines, I surely can't be the only one with a long enough attention span to actually read the headlines and decide based on what the story is, without needing a small picture to draw me in? ~~~ benjaminasmith I think you've misunderstood his point: he's saying that that the audience would rather see _pictures of the story_ than _a picture of the author_. In Andy's original article, his mockup featured photos of the authors next to some headlines. But of course, a photo of the story is far more useful than a photo of the correspondent. ------ sjs382 "Unsolicited redesign" blog posts are just linkbait posts that ignore the most important part of redesigning a major website: user testing. These unsolicited redesign posts just feed the author's ego and redesign a website with one user in mind: the author. ~~~ benjaminasmith This is exactly the point that Martin Belam makes: So, if anyone wants to pick up the challenge and build a prototype of Andy’s redux from our content, I’d love to see it...and test it with users. ------ sebkomianos The site is down, any cached or working links? ~~~ ehutch79 nope went down too quick. coral cache doesnt have it anyways.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Freelancers,What are your biggest painpoints? - PrakashBhatta ====== jstewartmobile Interruptions from calls, administrative overhead, self-employment tax, and health insurance costs. If at all possible, bill out jobs instead of hours. If you absolutely have to bill per-unit-time, choose as large a unit as you can get away with. Per-hour may work for attorneys, but when you have to watch the clock on every little thing as a developer, everyone loses. Unless you are old, do whatever you can do to minimize self-employment tax. It's currently over 15%, and it's for a retirement system most of us will never get a dime out of. If you have trustworthy people you can lean on for things like advertising, accounting, sales, etc., hold on to them for dear life and pay them fairly. The more you are able to double-down on your strengths, the better. ~~~ rajeshp1986 Let me ask you a question. would you pay someone to manage this hassle for you? ------ sheraz Keeping the pipeline full for when projects end or go on hiatus. The dumbest mistake I've made has been this. That slack time in between paying gigs can really kill financial momentum. Also, If I'm idle for more than two weeks that wastes not only money but also mental bandwidth. I go from thinking about work to thinking about how to get work, and that is stressful. Always be networking. Always take meetings even if you are fully booked. Stay visible. ~~~ chatmasta Conversely, keeping the pipeline full while engaged on other projects. This applies especially if you are booking in one-month blocks. How do you keep incoming leads hot when you won't be available for at least 60 days? ~~~ sheraz I'm very upfront about my availability. I also let people know weeks in advance when I will be available. And in between that time I stay visible at my favorite events/meetups and in social media (publishing little open source things), asking questions, etc. ------ BjoernKW About a year ago I conducted a small-scale survey on how freelancers approach marketing and sales and what their biggest problems in these areas (and in general) are: [https://bjoernkw.com/2016/01/15/survey-for-it-freelancers- ho...](https://bjoernkw.com/2016/01/15/survey-for-it-freelancers-how-do-you- approach-marketing-and-sales-the-results/) ~~~ myroon5 Heads up, this was impossible to read on mobile for me. ~~~ BjoernKW Sorry for that. Google Charts apparently can cause layout problems on mobile devices. The static image version linked in the article should work fine, though. ------ wayn3 Getting access to jobs that are remote and do not require me to do any kind of UI nonsense. The cross section here can be fickle. ------ philippz Germany here - bureaucracy.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Show HN: Repl.it Chrome – Right click code to run - jajoosam https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/replit/kihnihckibjknmebghcjpmemaginnipl ====== hayaodeh2 This is really cool	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Rust 0.10 released - asb https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2014-April/009387.html ====== lifthrasiir Highlights (no particular order, partially reflects my personal interests): \- Managed (GC-ed) pointers are moved to the standard library. There is no special syntax (formerly `@`) nor special header (for vectors containing managed pointers) required. \- Special treatments on `str` and `[T]` vectors are being generalized ("Dynamically Sized Types"). \- Lifetimes of temporary expressions have changed in somewhat more intuitive way. \- Syntax extensions are now exportable, documentable and much more flexible ("procedural macro"). \- Language simplifications: `do` syntactic sugar is removed, `priv` is now default, no trait bounds by default (e.g. formerly `:Send` was implied for `~Trait`). \- The smart pointer usage has been improved with new `Deref` and `DerefMut` traits. \- There are now many auxiliary standard libraries instead of a single `extra` library. \- Usual library fixes, redesigns and influx took place. Most prominent change is an introduction of growable vector type, `Vec<T>`, which subsumes the original `~[T]` type. \- Rustpkg is gone, long live Cargo! Rustc has also combined many related options into umbrella flags (e.g. `-C`). As prior point releases of Rust did, Rust 0.10 does not represent a significant milestone. It is always recommended to use the most recent development version (master) of Rust, but it had been a great undertaking to compile Rust from scratch. From 0.10 onwards, however, there are official nightly versions [1] and brave souls can play with master more conveniently now. (They are currently not signed yet, so take that in mind.) [1] [https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust- dev/2014-March/00922...](https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust- dev/2014-March/009223.html) ~~~ kibwen > Managed (GC-ed) pointers are moved to the standard library. _Most_ uses of the old managed pointer scheme have been excised, but not all just yet (though we have people working on it with great vigor and tireless devotion). They're behind a feature flag though, so it's not possible to use them by accident. For example, note that the replacement type in question, std::gc::Gc, is still internally backed by the old managed pointers, although this will not be the case once we finally implement a proper garbage collector. And even then if you really need multiple owners of a single value we'd really prefer that you use our reference-counted pointer (std::rc::Rc) instead, along with weak pointers (std::rc::Weak) if your data has cycles. Reference counting in Rust is generally surprisingly cheap, since the refcount only gets bumped if you explicitly clone the pointer; otherwise the pointer simply gets passed around as an owned value. ------ kibwen Congrats to all developers on the release! Here's a selection of some of my personal favorite changes in this release cycle: * Automatically-generated nightly binaries for all first-tier platforms [1] * Switching the default hashmap over to Robin Hood hashing [2] * Turning on native threading by default, in lieu of the green thread runtime [3] * The removal of conditions in favor of a standardized type for returning I/O results, which will (by default) generate a warning if the result is ignored [4] * The extension of the lifetimes of temporary values, which should greatly reduce the occasions where you have to assign a name to a temporary result in an effort to please the compiler [5] [6] And if you're thrown by the idea that version 0.10 follows version 0.9, know that _I_ voted for 0.A (alas). 1.0 is still expected for later this year, though no promises! Remember, Rust 1.0 is _not_ the milestone when the language is finished, but rather the milestone when backwards-incompatible changes to the language will no longer be made. See the "backcompat-lang" tag on the issue tracker for a list of outstanding blockers. [7] [1] [https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust- dev/2014-March/00922...](https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust- dev/2014-March/009223.html) [2] [https://github.com/mozilla/rust/pull/12081](https://github.com/mozilla/rust/pull/12081) [3] [https://github.com/mozilla/rust/pull/12833](https://github.com/mozilla/rust/pull/12833) [4] [https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust- dev/2014-February/00...](https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust- dev/2014-February/008505.html) [5] [http://smallcultfollowing.com/babysteps/blog/2014/01/09/rval...](http://smallcultfollowing.com/babysteps/blog/2014/01/09/rvalue- lifetimes-in-rust/) [6] [https://github.com/mozilla/rust/pull/11585](https://github.com/mozilla/rust/pull/11585) [7] [https://github.com/mozilla/rust/issues?direction=asc&labels=...](https://github.com/mozilla/rust/issues?direction=asc&labels=P-backcompat- lang&milestone=20&sort=created&state=open) ~~~ jksmith >* Turning on native threading by default, in lieu of the green thread runtime [3] Curious about rationale for this. Have details? ~~~ kibwen The switch was inspired by this mailing list thread back in November: [http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.rust.devel/6479](http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.rust.devel/6479) ~~~ twic A select quote: > Memory mapped I/O is also an incredibly important feature for I/O > performance, and there's almost no reason to use traditional I/O on 64-bit. > However, it's a no-go with M:N scheduling because the page faults block the > thread. This is more or less why Java switched to native threads a decade and a half ago. Although in that case, it was page faults from hitting swap rather than memory-mapped IO. And in both cases, compatibility with existing native code which makes blocking system calls was also a consideration. It's reassuring that Rust is following a path well-worn by other serious languages. Now it's just a question of waiting for Go and Node to do the same. ~~~ yepguy Google has been pushing for performance improvements in native threads for a similar reason. If that's successful, I think the plan is for Go to switch too, but I can't find any links about it atm. ~~~ fmstephe [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXuZi9aeGTw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXuZi9aeGTw) That might be the talk you are thinking about. I am keeping an eye on this. If we can have our cake and eat too w.r.t green threads and performance I will be very happy. ------ dmunoz I must have misunderstood what was changing in rust re: pointer types. My understanding was that managed boxes using the sigil @ were being removed, and GC moved to the standard library std::rc::Rc. When I last read the tutorial, I read master instead of 0.9, and thought that the existence of the managed box in the tutorial was only due to it not yet being updated. But the 0.10 tutorial retains references to managed boxes using thee sigil @. Is the tutorial not yet updated? Did @ not get removed from the core in time for 0.10? Or did I just misunderstand what is actually happening? ~~~ eridius Most likely the tutorial didn't get updated. It doesn't get a lot of love. kibwen already posted[1] more details about @ in Rust 0.10, but the short of it is, @ still exists but is gated behind a feature flag. Code that uses it is still being updated. The functionally equivalent replacement is std::gc::Gc, but you should consider std::rc::Rc for reference counting instead (which supports weak references). [1] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7525598](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7525598) ~~~ dmunoz > Most likely the tutorial didn't get updated. It doesn't get a lot of love. Ah, that's a shame. I actually just mentioned the tutorial as an awesome resource in another comment. Maybe my understanding of the Rust language isn't as good as I thought it was, as most of it comes from reading the tutorial and the related guides linked at the end. I'm a big fan of high quality documentation, and I assumed since the current tutorial was so well written, it was being handled actively already. This is actually one area I would love to step up and help Rust with. I've previously gone so far as to read some of the compiler implementation, but my experience with programming languages is still stuck in the interpreters stage, so it didn't get very far. ~~~ cmrx64 The _guides_ are up-to-date and maintained, but the tutorial itself is long, bulky, and ill-maintained. There is a contractor working on rewriting it. ------ ripter Is it safe to start learning and using Rust for hobby projects or should I wait until 1.0? ~~~ derekchiang Yes, lots of people have started using Rust for hobby projects [0] and their feedback has been invaluable to the development of the language. [0] [http://rust-ci.org/projects/](http://rust-ci.org/projects/) ~~~ hkphooey Will there be any impact on Rust due to Brendan Eich quitting Mozilla? How much involvement did he have on the project? ~~~ pcwalton Brian Anderson said it better than I could: Brendan's resignation as CEO will have no effect on Rust or Servo. Many people at all levels of the organization are huge supporters of Rust, Servo, and Mozilla Research in general. ------ sixbrx So how easy would it be to use Rust to compile libraries to be called from non-Rust systems? I've seen reference to using #[start] and #[no_std] but it wasn't clear with the latter just how much of "std" I'd be giving up? Hopefully that would mean just giving up task spawning and inter-task communication (ok), or would it be everything under the std namespace (not so ok)? Making this easy would be an easy win to get Rust into active use incrementally. Rust would for example be able to do heavy lifting in computations with Python/Cython providing a web front end dispatcher. ~~~ ben0x539 If you just link some rust code into a C program without #[no_std], once you call anything that makes use of the runtime, it will abort with a lovecraftian error message and a stack trace because it asserts that the runtime exists and has placed some info into thread-local storage. It'll run until then, though! If you'll only call into rust from a single C-created thread, you could start that thread through a shim that starts up the rust runtime. Rust code can then spawn its own threads in there and all of std might just work. ~~~ dbaupp I don't think #[no_std] has any effect here, other that guaranteeing that know runtime-using functions are called (by not linking in any runtime at all). I believe you can also just start runtimes in each call into Rust. Obviously it won't be particularly efficient. ~~~ ben0x539 That's what I meant re: no_std, yeah. Would it be possible to lazily start libnative if a call into the runtime is made but there's none there, but then keep it running for that thread for subsequent calls? ~~~ dbaupp Maybe? The current design is starting a runtime is a blocking call, though, i.e. I think you'd call `native::run`[1] and run anything needing a runtime inside that (I haven't experimented with this part of our FFI in detail). [1]: [http://static.rust- lang.org/doc/master/native/fn.run.html](http://static.rust- lang.org/doc/master/native/fn.run.html) ------ swah I love that the Install button gave me an .exe directly - has it always been like that? I don't remember it being this easy the first time I looked at Rust. Kudos. ~~~ swah Oh well it isn't that easy: C:\Users\swah>rustc first.rust error: could not exec the linker `gcc`: file not found error: aborting due to previous error ------ veeti What resources would you recommend for learning Rust? There's the official tutorial but I have to admit that the later parts of it go over my head a little bit. ~~~ pcwalton Rust for Rubyists is a great resource I can vouch for (not just for Rubyists): [http://www.rustforrubyists.com/](http://www.rustforrubyists.com/) ~~~ maxiepoo I was disappointed in how little detail this went into on the different pointer types and how/when to use each one. IIRC, it doesn't even mention lifetimes, which are the feature that's currently stopping me from writing any rust code (because I don't know how to fix lifetime problems). ~~~ b0b_d0e As far as fixing lifetime errors is concerned, I would recommend breaking your code down into a simpler form so that you can look at the lifetimes from a broader perspective. If you have a simple test case that mimics the same error that your main program has and you still can't solve it, you can simply make a gist for it and ask on the IRC and they usually are able to point out the error. In my experience with lifetime errors, doing it in this method sometimes reveals the simple error I was over looking, or in other cases after asking on IRC I learn something new about lifetimes. ------ krick Maybe somewhat rude question, but how close to being "ready" Rust is? I mean, should I start using it already if not only for the sake of language itself? How stable is it now? How much it will probably change 'till 1.0? How soon it can be expected to be "production ready"? ~~~ renox > how close to being "ready" Rust is? I think that this depends on your expectations, I was quite disappointed to find that there isn't a clean way to make 'unit types' (second, millisecond, meters, etc) in Rust.. I wouldn't use Rust for anything but toy project.. ~~~ wfraser > there isn't a clean way to make 'unit types' (second, millisecond, meters, > etc) in Rust.. Actually, there's this bit on Tuple Structs[1] in the tutorial: > Types like this can be useful to differentiate between data that have the > same underlying type but must be used in different ways. struct Inches(int); struct Centimeters(int); [1] [http://static.rust- lang.org/doc/master/tutorial.html#tuple-s...](http://static.rust- lang.org/doc/master/tutorial.html#tuple-structs) ------ glenjamin I've seen it stated a few times that after Rust 1.0 there will be no more backwards compatible changes. Does that mean _ever_ , or just that it'll be stable for some time before people start considering a 2.0 to try and fix whatever warts are discovered from wider usage of 1.0+ ? ~~~ kibwen It certainly doesn't necessarily mean _ever_. Who even knows who will be leading the project ten years from now! But it _does_ mean that it will be quite a while before the hypothetical 2.0 where we could consider breaking backwards compatibility. How long "quite a while" will turn out to be, I can't say. But it will certainly be an improvement over the current situation, where the language breaks about once a week. :) ------ Dewie Wait, I don't understand these version numbers. Wasn't the previous release 0.9? I was expecting the new release to be 1.0, or 0.91, or something like that. Maybe this is standard practice for all I know. ~~~ kibwen Rust uses semantic versioning ([http://semver.org/](http://semver.org/)). The number after the dot is simply a minor version revision, and can increment without bound. A 1.0 release of Rust is targeted for later this year. There will be at least one more minor version (0.11), and possibly more, before that point. ~~~ yepguy Unfortunately Rust is not actually using semver, which I always found confusing because they seem to be in support of it, and they even include a semver library in the core distribution. If they were following semver, this release would be version 0.10.0 (notice the patch version). The point of semver is to stick to a standard, instead of every project deviating from common practice in subtly incompatible ways. ~~~ Tuna-Fish > If they were following semver, this release would be version 0.10.0 (notice > the patch version). Actually, since they are doing backwards incompatible changes in every release, this version would be more like 10.0.0. They are deviating from semver for now, I hope they get on it properly for 1.0.0 and beyond. ~~~ yepguy You are allowed to make breaking changes at any time if your major version is zero. ~~~ mcguire Right, because the semver "standard" is inconsistent in that particular way.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Show HN: Poker arena for AI/ML bots - maximedb https://pkr42.com ====== maximedb Hi HN, Regular poker platforms ban the use of bots. They fear bots provides an unfair advantage. But honestly, I don't think it is the right response. Instead of fighting the use of bots, platforms should think hard on how to best incorporate bots in the game with humans. For example, I could find on several forums that the capacity to analyze thousands of "hand histories" provides an unfair advantage to bots. Ok, fair enough. The solution is simple: anonymize players and hand histories become worthless. That is why I am working on a poker platform for bots. The one thing I learned in StartupSchool 2019 is that you should talk to potential users before working on a solution. So here I am with a discussion and a landing page :-) What do you guys think? Thank you! Maxime.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Predictably Random - Fudgel https://remysharp.com/2019/08/06/predictably-random ====== OskarS Hubba bubba. This is maybe not the article to read if you want to learn how to implement randomness correctly. There's... many things wrong with it. Of course randomA is terrible, you're modding it with 16! It's never going to have a period longer than 16 like that! Same with randomB, just with a slightly larger number. Both of these are just bog-standard linear congruential generators. LCGs are pretty bad for anything "serious", but for picking Tetris pieces they're fine, and they're easy to implent (or at least I thought they were, but then you see an article like this where one of them has period 16...). I don't immediately recognie randomC(), but it also looks terrible. Just shifting some bits around and adding a counter. At least it has some internal state so it it's not stupidly periodic. I haven't read up on what's the issue with V8's Math.random(), but I would have to imagine it's superior to all these three. I'm also sure there's plenty of excellent randomness libraries (and plenty of terrible ones) on NPM. Also, this kind of visual inspection will weed out truly garbage PRNGs, but it's not a good test in general. Testing for pseudo-randomness is hard, and best left to people who know what they are doing. Also also: for Tetris, you shouldn't just pick pieces at random, that's not how Tetris works nowadays. Tetris works by putting all 7 pieces in a bag, and then pulling them out at random. When the bag is empty, you fill it again with the seven pieces and start over. More info here: [0]. If you're new to programming, implementing the 7-bag system properly is a good little challenge, you'll get to learn all about the Fisher-Yates shuffle [1]. [0]: [https://tetris.fandom.com/wiki/Random_Generator](https://tetris.fandom.com/wiki/Random_Generator) [1]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher%E2%80%93Yates_shuffle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher%E2%80%93Yates_shuffle) ~~~ defertoreptar > you shouldn't just pick pieces at random, that's not how Tetris works > nowadays. It's a purely abstract game with endless possibilities for how it can be made. That's what makes it timeless. There's no reason you have to use bag randomizer in your own personal projects. That is, unless you feel some strange need to check off boxes to comply with what the current IP holders happen to prescribe at a particular moment in time. In fact, there's an argument for using a memoryless randomizer: it maximizes variation, unpredictability, and increases challenge. ~~~ OskarS You speak of Tetris like it's some abstract concept that has always existed and is like some eternal truth. It's not: it's a game that was created by one man, Alexey Pajitnov, who also just happen to be "the current IP holder" you dismiss so easily (he's the co-owner of the Tetris Company). So no, it's not an "abstract game with endless possibilities". Tetris is Tetris, a concrete game made by a great game designer. It gets cloned and copied constantly, so much so that people forget that it was actually authored by a person. Comments like yours erase Pajitnov's authorship and ownership, which he has rightly earned. Nobody talks of any other kind of media this way, we shouldn't do it about games either. When speaking of Harry Potter, no one thinks of JK Rowling as just "the current IP holder" (she's the author!), and no one considers fan fiction on the same level as the real thing. The article states "when the game plays, the tetrominos are selected at random". When it comes to standard Tetris, as defined by the Tetris Company, this is incorrect. I was correcting the error. Obviously you can do it however you want, but that is how Tetris does it. As for what's more fun, obviously opinions can differ. But as someone who plays a lot (A LOT) of Tetris, I personally vastly prefer the 7-bag system. It really opens up the game strategically, and it allows you to play much faster. ~~~ defertoreptar I agree that credit is due to the wonderfully creative game designer, Mr. Pajitnov. I don't see this as contradictory to my point. > So no, it's not an "abstract game with endless possibilities". Tetris is > Tetris, a concrete game While protecting their IP in a court of law, The Tetris Company successfully argued that it does not exhibit scènes à faire because it is a purely abstract game. > Moreover, Xio does not dispute that Tetris is a purely fanciful game, > meaning it has no grounding in the real world, unlike a video game > simulating a karate match or a golf game. Therefore, the analyses in Data > East and Incredible Technologies are largely inapplicable; the scènes à > faire doctrine has little weight in instances such as this because there are > no expressive elements “standard, stock, or common” to a unique puzzle game > that is divorced from any real world representation. > [https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/new- > jer...](https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/new- > jersey/njdce/3:2009cv06115/235418/61/) ------ soVeryTired RNGs are like crypto: don't roll your own! There's some really deep number theory behind many of them. Every RNG I've seen lets you control the seed, so I'm not sure what he gains by writing his own. ~~~ ChrisSD Javascript doesn't allow setting the seed: [https://developer.mozilla.org/en- US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Refe...](https://developer.mozilla.org/en- US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Math/random) ~~~ strenholme Probably time to use a third party RNG for Javascript then. For example, [https://gist.github.com/banksean/300494](https://gist.github.com/banksean/300494) or, if you don’t like MT19937 (shameless plug) [https://github.com/samboy/rg32hash/blob/master/rg32.js](https://github.com/samboy/rg32hash/blob/master/rg32.js) ------ FabHK The article is amateurish, and it neither reflects the range and complexity of issues surrounding PRNGs, nor does it offer any good advice (except maybe "don't just use the first PRNG you come across"). A better introduction is the PCG website (it's biased towards PCG, but a) that's not a bad choice for many use cases, and b) it raises and discusses many issues regarding PRNG choice). [http://www.pcg-random.org](http://www.pcg-random.org) EDIT to add: and FWIW, any serious PRNG of course allows seeding, and then the issue boils down to choosing a shared seed. ------ strenholme Which random number generator to use can be a heated discussion, with strong opinions. math.random() and rand() can have issues using poor random number generators like LCGs instead of good random number generators. The default “good” random number generator is the “Mersenne Twister” (most of the time, the 32-bit MT19937 version). It generates numbers which look quite random while not being cryptographically strong (the problem with crypto- strong generators is that they tend to be slower, and can still cause legal issues in some jurisdictions). A lot of languages use this for the default random number generator. Some people really like using xorshift generators; with the right parameters, xorshift can generate high quality numbers while being much simpler than MT19937. One version of this which some use is JKISS32; it’s small and makes good numbers. Random number generators can be tested using a series of tests called “dieharder”; another test for RNGs is “bigcrush” which takes hours, sometimes days, to fully run. These tests make sure the random number generators are statistically random, using a large number of tests of the generator. My favorite pseudo random number generator is a cryptographically strong one: RadioGatún[32]. It’s simple, fast, doesn’t require special seeding of its state (unlike MT19937), and allows the seed to be an arbitrary string instead of just being a number. It passes all dieharder tests, but I haven’t had a chance to test it with bigcrush yet. I have a GitHub repo with implementations of it I have done in various languages (C, Python2, Python3, Javascript, C++, etc.) ~~~ edflsafoiewq I would not recommend MT. It fails many tests, that state is big, the code is complex, and it's not very fast. For non-crypto PRNGs, I'd reach for PCG or one of Vigna's generators. ~~~ strenholme I tend to agree, but I need to point out that MT19937 doesn’t fail “many” tests. It fails, at most, two of the bigcrush tests: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mersenne_Twister](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mersenne_Twister) and look for the “TestU01” discussion on that page. The biggest problem with MT19937, besides its complexity and large state size, is that it needs to have its state properly seeded. Like I said, it’s a heated debate which random number generator is the best one. ~~~ FabHK It is surprisingly heated debate, and it's hard to extract good advice from experts (I've asked Art Owen, Monte Carlo expert at Stanford, for up-to-date advice (he recommended MT19937 some 15 years ago), and he was very hesitant to utter any strong recommendations...) Having said that, I think most projects should move on from MT19937 by now, defaulting to a cryptographically secure PRNG, and allowing to switch to a faster one (such as PCG or xoroshiro) when desired. ~~~ strenholme MT19937 is probably not the best PRNG out there, but the nice thing about it is that, for a long time, there was a pretty strong consensus among programmers that it was the PRNG to use. It’s a better choice than a simple LCG, which is what programmers tend to use if they’re not using MT. There are a lot of crypto-strong RNGs out there (AES on OFB mode? Counter Mode? SHA-3 in SHAKE128 or SHAKE256? Salsa20 or ChaCha? Or, do what I do and use RadioGatún[32]), so not much standardization on that front. With non crypto, we have in this thread already mentioned PCG ( [http://www.pcg-random.org/](http://www.pcg-random.org/) ), JKISS32, xoroshiro, and Vigna’s generators. There are others. Again, not much standardization. ~~~ FabHK I thought the xoroshiros are basically Vigna's? Developed further from precursors. But you're right, there's no successor anointed yet to MT19937, but it's about time. Wish some real expert in the field would publish an authoritative account (but opinionated enough to make real choices) that programming language devs could point to, and across the board implement: * safe (ie, a cryptographically secure PRNG) <\- default * fast (if your application needs speed more than security against adversaries, such as Monte Carlo integration) * others (if you really know what you're doing) EDIT to add: it feels a bit like the old chestnut about IBM: nobody ever gets fired for choosing the Mersenne Twister... ------ Pinbenterjamin Kind of unrelated, but I recently tested out a scenario for the Dotnet Environment that worked really well; I created a 'Random' service that lives for the length of the execution of the application. This service has an instance of Random that persists with the object, and exposes simple methods with min/max parameters. I register the service in a unity container, and then immediately resolve it, causing the Random type inside of the random service to instantiate. Then anywhere I want to generate a random number, I inject that service. This works because, as long as you persist a single instance of 'Random', two calls to 'Next' or 'NextDouble' won't result in the same number. ------ perspective1 I'm not in the cryptography or random space beyond using libraries, but these visualizations are very clever. It's easy to see major problems. edit: It shows small-periods but otherwise it's not all that useful (see below). ~~~ jgrahamc It's easy to see some major problems, but take a look at this: [https://random.isthe.link/?code=let+x+%3D+Date.now%28%29+%26...](https://random.isthe.link/?code=let+x+%3D+Date.now%28%29+%26+0xFFFFFFFF%3B%0Alet+y+%3D+45342%3B%0Alet+z+%3D+65453%3B%0Alet+w+%3D+z+%5E+y%3B%0Aw+%26%3D+0xFFFFFFFF%3B%0A%0Afunction+randomD%28%29+%0A%7B%0A+++++let+t+%3D+x%3B%0A+++++t+%5E%3D+t+<<+11%3B%0A+++++t+%26%3D+0xFFFFFFFF%3B%0A+++++t+%5E%3D+t+>>+8%3B%0A+++++t+%26%3D+0xFFFFFFFF%3B%0A%0A+++++x+%3D+y%3B+y+%3D+z%3B+z+%3D+w%3B%0A+%0A+++++w+%5E%3D+w+>>+19%3B%0A+++++w+%26%3D+0xFFFFFFFF%3B%0A+++++w+%5E%3D+t%3B%0A+++++w+%26%3D+0xFFFFFFFF%3B%0A%0A++++return+w%2F0xFFFFFFFF%3B%0A%7D%0A%0Aexport+default+randomD%3B) The random number generator here is used quite often in projects and it looks pretty random. But if you look at the code you can see that it has four numbers that store state and its output can be entirely predicted from those four numbers that are consecutive outputs of the RNG. ~~~ perspective1 Oh wow. At some point I've thrown up my hands and just used Pcg64 because people I trust but can't possibly verify recommended it. Your post reaffirms that that was the right decision (trusting others). ~~~ jgrahamc Worth reading Knuth on this and his attempt to create his own RNG and fail horribly: [http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=2221790](http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=2221790) ------ willis936 Why not use RDRAND? Also you can always choose well-established, arbitrarily complex psuedo random algorithms. If you want to guarantee low correlation you could use PRBS (whatever shift amount you need, 31 may be enough for most scenarios) with the same shift register values and seeds that are maximally equidistant. ~~~ lvh Article mentions he wants to make the seed explicit so he can reproduce the same (randomly selected) environment. You can use any stream cipher you want instead, of course, but in my experience for video games the problem isn’t “I need a random bit” (which AES CTR is very good at but MT or any PCG/LCG is really just as fit for purpose) but “I need to sample from this weird distribution”. Stuff goes wrong as soon as someone needs to do something as simple as sampling from a set of cardinality not exactly a power of two let alone something more complex. ------ grayed-down Test and debate all you want, but if your application needs random data and it has access or intermittent access to the internet, use the Cesium isotope 137 :) [https://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/](https://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/) ------ woliveirajr TL;DR: random is hard because computers are deterministic; we use Pseudo- Random, and each function that generates pseudo-random must be tested to see how random the results are.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Coming Soon: Free Internet From Space - wikiburner http://www.nationaljournal.com/tech/coming-soon-free-internet-from-space-20140220 ====== lutusp An article without a single word of useful information -- no clue about orbital height, how many subscribers might be served by a given satellite, how the system would switch between satellites as one satellite moved out of view, that sort of thing. Without the technical details, it's a pipe dream unlikely to attract investors. ~~~ andymoe This particular plan may be a pipe dream but I think everyone is vastly underestimating the roll satellite comm will play in the next 20 years. Access to space is going to get much much cheaper and I suspect this kind of thing will become a major competitor with terrestrial wireless services. For instance, Iridium has 500 million in launches on the SpaceX books for Iridium Next starting in 2015. This is global constellation in LEO providing 1.5mbs wireless data connection anywhere in the world. [1] [http://www.iridium.com/about/iridiumnext.aspx](http://www.iridium.com/about/iridiumnext.aspx)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
We're in an icon-sharpness limbo - tbassetto http://simurai.com/post/19895985870/icon-sharpness-limbo ====== WiseWeasel I think the answer is SVG for anything we've got vectorized, and I've started delving more deeply into the format, which turns out to be pretty awesome. First, to create them, I draw icons with vectors at the actual size the final icon will be rendered on regular non-retina displays, then export as SVG with Illustrator. But what I really want are the paths; fill and stroke colors and shading effects can be added manually. Then, I open the SVG output in a text editor, and since it's all XHTML formatted, I can easily modify everything to get the look I want. I can re- organize the path and fill elements, change their fill colors, and add things like shadows right in the SVG file as filter elements, in case your editor makes sub-optimal choices as to how to encode your design. These icons look perfect when rendered on both normal screens at 1x and retina displays at 2x resolution. If I needed an in-between size, I'd have to design a new vector for the new target size. One vector design will typically not work well for different rendered sizes at this small scale, as every pixel counts, and anti-aliasing does more harm than good. That problem is just unavoidable, even when you try to make a flattened PNG at all these in-between sizes. I've also found SVG ideal for small bits of text with special non-web-safe fonts. Converting text to paths and exporting to SVG is the way to go over gif or png text, and looks great on retina displays. ~~~ luminarious As SVG supports CSS and Media Queries, it's possible to optimize the display for different display sizes. Like demonstrated here: [http://my.opera.com/ODIN/blog/2009/10/12/how-media- queries-a...](http://my.opera.com/ODIN/blog/2009/10/12/how-media-queries- allow-you-to-optimize-svg-icons-for-several-sizes) ~~~ WiseWeasel OK, I take back what I said. SVG _can_ be used to create a single asset that looks good at ALL resolutions; it's just going to take some work and possibly add too much bloat to be worth it in some cases. So let's say you have a 16px icon design, with an element 7px wide, and you want a 24px version of that icon. The problem is when you scale an odd- numbered-height or width element by a factor of 1.5 in this example, you get an element with a height or width defined as a non-integer (10.5px wide in this case), which is when anti-aliasing kicks in and replaces that extra .5 pixel of element and .5 pixel of background with one pixel of element at half opacity. this makes it look fuzzy. What you need to do is have a media query like this in the SVG file: <style> @media screen and (max-width: 24){#element {width: 10px}} </style> Or maybe: @media screen and (max-width: 16){<shape id="element" width="7px"</shape>} @media screen and (max-width: 24){<shape id="element" width="10px"</shape>} I haven't played with it to be sure yet, but something like that might allow you to set the width, height or radius to an integer for the sizes you care about. Complex paths would still likely need to be redrawn for various target sizes to get rid of the more egregious anti-aliasing issues. In that case, we're adding bloat to everyone's SVG files to serve the needs of different clients. Maybe we're still better off with different SVG files served to different clients when we pass a certain threshold of duplicated content within the SVG, and duplicated paths would seem to me to be in danger of crossing that threshold. ------ mmahemoff I'm curious if there are any standards for "patching" vector graphics. So you could download the base SVG and a separate vector and/or bitmap-based patch to produce something appropriate for the resolution. (As well as being appropriate for the bandwidth constraints etc.) The patch could be downloaded simultaneously or progressively, i.e. after the base image has been rendered. ~~~ natevw I've always wondered if adding something like "font hinting" would cover most use cases. Although I suppose for e.g. icons sometimes at the smaller sizes the actual graphic is pretty much a completely different image, rather than just a hand-tweaked rasterization. ~~~ schmerg See [http://www.pushing-pixels.org/2011/11/04/about-those- vector-...](http://www.pushing-pixels.org/2011/11/04/about-those-vector- icons.html) for a detailed exploration of precisely the issue with icons and real-life examples of how smaller versions are actually different images (eg a large 3d image with drop shadows gets gradually flattened to a simplified 2d version). One thing you can do for patching SVG is to have multiple versions of images/shapes and use CSS rules to select just the most appropriate one to show depending on a class you add to some root or parent item - hiding the other until needed. I haven't tested this, but wonder if the browser would be smart enough to prioritise loading of the different images depending on the visibility. Otherwise you could generate those parts of the SVG as required, and use the load event to only swap the display to the more appropriate version of an image once loaded.. hence as you zoom the display, you first get the "core" image/shapes etc simply scaled by the browser, and then as background images are loaded, these scaled versions are replaced by more appropriate versions. This would match the way that zooming works with tiles in apps like Google maps - when you first zoom in you simply get the base tile images scaled by the browser, and then replaced by the more detailed versions as they're loaded. ------ alexchamberlain We need a multi-resolution image format and/or support for browsers to dictate to the server what size they want. ~~~ ars There is a workgroup working on it: <http://www.w3.org/community/respimg/> Some of the options: <https://etherpad.mozilla.org/responsive-assets> ~~~ alexchamberlain We need to send the dimensions with the image request. It's the only way. ~~~ pornel There are many factors beyond screen size that could be involved in selection of image DPI: bandwidth availability and cost, screen density and current zoom level, amount of free memory available, hardware limitations (like iPad's max 1024px bitmaps). Sending all these factors to the server would be problematic, so IMHO it's better if page declaratively specifies what sizes are available and lets UA pick one (so my UA doesn't need to tell every server when I'm out of my bandwidth allowance and _hope_ server acts as expected). ~~~ alexchamberlain I disagree to some extent. Given DPI, screen density and zoom level, the CSS etc should dictate the pixel width/height which can be sent to the server to obtain the correct version.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Qualifying "Web Karma": It shouldn't be a game. - endtwist http://www.unwieldy.net/inck/thoughts/qualifying-web-karma-it-shouldnt-be-a-game ====== GavinB Making an activity into a game is sometimes the best way to get what you want. The trick is to reward people for doing the right things. The problem is that no one has yet invented a karma "game" that can't be manipulated. Still, when you're dealing with a large community the karma game is the only system that has shown promise. It would be great if just having clear guidelines was enough, but it doesn't work that way. ~~~ jacquesm The whole karma discussion of the last couple of days has really given me a lot of stuff to think about. It has to be possible to 'crack' this problem somehow. The problems that I've seen listed so far enumerated are: \- class hierarchy \- groupthink \- feedback loops \- old hands vs newcomers (aka the incrowd problem) I'll go back through all the stuff that was said on this subject and see if I can dig up more. It's a very interesting problem, possibly one of the most interesting ones that I have seen in a long time, it is worthy of a serious study. ------ nx This is my take on karma: I don't care how much karma I have. I just make (hopefully) good comments. And if people disagree with me, it's okay, we're all entitled to an opinion. But if I get really downmodded, I think about whether my comment was rude or something. I don't need an orange username to feel good about myself. ~~~ ovi256 I always loved this quote from Hannibal : "Will they give you a medal, Clarice, do you think? Would you have it professionally framed and hang it on your wall to look at and remind you of your courage and incorruptibility? All you would need for that, Clarice, is a mirror." Self-esteem and intrinsic motivation are so much more powerful than extrinsic incentives. All these karma systems can do is, at best, reflect how people feel about themselves. The real challenge is to have a community that attracts the right people. Then, the karma system will show the quality of the community. ~~~ nx Exactly. I don't really need the karma for me, but we need it as a community to tell good and bad content apart. ------ mighty Reposting a comment I made on the new comment features thread: _...I'd prefer having the system make its values explicit via descriptors for comments (think Slashdot or Plastic). My top two would be "insightful" and "uncharitable". The former encourages what's best about this community, the latter strongly discourages what's worst. A lot of deep and pointless threads are caused by commenters reacting to their own hasty interpretations of what someone said rather than even-handedly responding to them. Also, no "Funny"._ <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=467281> I've also suggested (and agreed with later suggestions) that the karma score should be kept hidden. I'm not adverse to replacing "up/down" with "insightful/uncharitable" entirely. ------ JacobAldridge Last time this topic was topical on HN (about 6 months ago) I put my thoughts in a blog post [http://www.shirlawsonline.com/blogs/199-my-pond-theory-or- ho...](http://www.shirlawsonline.com/blogs/199-my-pond-theory-or-how-social- networks-avoid-failing) I posed that size limits on membership and censorship were options - even using Bayesian filtering as a tool. If I re-wrote those posts, I would definitely include descriptors as a partial solution. The karma game falls apart because the people whose thoughts are most encouraged are those who care about karma the least. edit: I'm only applying this to social sites like those discussed here. On a site like eBay, there is much greater utility in the karma number and also much more restriction over its use and what it represents. ------ diN0bot great article. slashdot _is_ awesome. reddit and hn became popular because of the communities, despite the loss of technical goodness each time. at the very least, i wish the quantifiable part of karma was kept strictly private. ------ makimaki But quantifiable karma and leaderboards that result from the addition of numerical values serve as incentives for users to contribute to the community. For the site owner, 'the game' is in his/her interest because it pulls people in to participate. It gives recognition to the efforts of site users. I'm not sure how effective 'good', 'very good' or 'poor' will perform as a substitute. ------ rw I have not seen as many people with orange nicks posting lately. I had an orange name earlier today, but my high-scoring comments have fallen out of my recent history. Are the orange users being very stringent about what they post? I don't blame them. ~~~ JacobAldridge pg discovered on implementation that this was unnecessarily slowing the site. So it's been rewound (hence, those who qualified for the orange name are back at the generic grey, and likely still posting.) <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=468599> ~~~ rw Ah, indeed - thanks. ------ run4yourlives I'm pretty sure I already said this last time meta-talk maddness came up. Yup, here it is. <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=373992> ------ psyklic It sounds like pg just implemented something like this -- grayish-orange vs. gray -- a qualitative measure ... The metric is slightly different, but the author basically got want he wanted. ------ nsrivast I think with all the advances in scrip systems, social psychology, and game theory these days, there should be a way to quantify and award karma that incentivizes productive discussion. ------ jmtame karma has shortcomings, but of course this stuff has to be built, and that takes time and testing. i'm sure pg knew about the shortcomings of a basic karma system going into it, but he probably had a lot of other things to tend to before going to improve karma. it makes for a good conversational starter on the topic though.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
A DIFFERENT GitHub redesign proposal - alexandercrohde https://blog.alexrohde.com/archives/656 ====== NathanKP No offense but that isn't a redesign, it is a gutted version that takes signal rich features out and makes Github much less usable. Signals like "number of releases", "number of contributors", "languages used in the project", and "number of commits" are all important ways that people evaluate an open source project before adopting it. This redesign even hides the "Insights" tab. Maybe that makes sense if you are someone who only ever pushes code, but if you are a user of open source, and doing something like trying to determine whether an NPM module is healthy, then one of the best signals available to you is to click on the repo for the module and check the "Insights" tab to see if it is actively maintained, if it is a one person project or a group effort, etc. Even if the project has no activity and therefore nothing to populate the "Insights" tab that is actually also an important signal that this project is probably kind of dead and if there are fixes that need to be made I'll have to do them myself. ~~~ geoah Would be interesting if users were allowed to customize the ui depending on their needs actually, even if that was client side. — the more I think about this the more certain I am that there must already be a chrome extension that does that. ~~~ yoz-y In theory grease monkey, user scripts, custom css or even an ad blocker could be used to do that. ------ unfunco > I have zero expertise and no real design credentials. > If these rules don’t click for you, then you probably have a long way to go > in your UX journey. You seem to establish yourself as knowing very little, but then belittle people that might know more than you if they disagree with your rules that you've just made up. > Wiki and Insights are features I have never used on github and may never > use. They should be hidden by default. Just because you have never used them doesn't mean nobody has used them, and I read the next line about "intelligently" showing them (since when has a boolean comparison been considered intelligence?) if they've been used before; but then how do those features get discovered? I only want to sound as rude as you were to the person whose work you've criticised for pageviews, so I'll leave it at: stick to DevOps. > There is always a flexible solution which caters to both experts and novices > simultaneously. That's wrong, regardless of how bold you make the word always. ~~~ lol768 > You seem to establish yourself as knowing very little, but then belittle > people that might know more than you if they disagree with your rules that > you've just made up. Yeah, that "you probably have a long way to go in your UX journey" comment irked me when I read it. I'm glad it's not just me who found it patronising. Your point about feature discovery is a good one that the article didn't address. It's all well and good hiding less used 'expert' features, but all experts were once novices. ------ playpause > As a senior-devops engineer, I have zero expertise and no real design > credentials. Yet I think I can still do better. > Far be it from me to tell everyone else how to do their job, but here are > some principles that seem intuitive to me, and maybe designers might > consider them too. > If these rules don’t click for you, then you probably have a long way to go > in your UX journey. I guess I have a long way to go on my UX journey. ~~~ Raphmedia It always amazes me how arrogant some people can be without being aware of it. ------ theandrewbailey First thing I noticed was that text labels disappeared. Your proposal has a significant drawback right away, and I dislike it. ~~~ heavenlyblue I would take the author's lesson and rewrite your comment as: >> Your proposal has a significant drawback right away, _as_ I dislike it. ------ Operyl You gutted most of the features out of sight that I use as a developer, at least based on that screenshot. I am not a fan of hiding things behind countless links, so, I'm a no on this one. ------ geoah Thank you for taking the time to write this up and mock up your suggestion. I could not agree more on your changes. (Might have some issues with the position of the new buttons and lack of releases link but that’s minor). The only thing I’d add back somehwere under the description would be the languages the project uses and its labels. ~~~ yoz-y The author removed all functionality they don't use. I could do the same with Photoshop and end up with a tool that nobody wants. I believe that GitHub has way better metrics for knowing which functionalities have to be put forward. As a personal note, the author removed the Projects tab, which is the reason I moved back to GitHub from Bitbucket. ~~~ wedn3sday There is one good point in the post, which is that it would be cool if things not used by the repo were automatically hidden (but still accessible if you want to start using them). Dont have a wiki? Dont show the wiki button (hide it under "more"). Dont use Projects? Hide the Project tab. ~~~ yoz-y That is already the case though. You can disable wikis, projects and issues and if you do so they will not show up. Granted it is kind of opt-out rather than opt-in, but I think that if you are starting with GitHub it is better to see what is available and if you are experienced you know what to do to hide them. In the end I disagree with the author that gratuitously hiding stuff under some submenu is good if there is no need to save space. ------ wedn3sday There seems to be some general consensus that the github UI is in need of a refresh (which I strongly agree with). Instead of having random sniping via blog post, it would be awesome to see an open design competition where anyone in the community can submit mockups with some bounty for the winner. ------ zwieback It's always hard to look at changes once you've gotten used to the status quo. When github first started I hated everything about it, wasn't clear at all how it improved over just using git. Now that I've been using github a lot (we switched a lot of our corporate repos over to internal githubs) I don't even notice whether the GUI is good or not. I still feel a lot of common tasks are buried in weird icon/button/tab clicking sequences but I've committed them to my lizard brain so now it literally doesn't matter what the GUI elements look like or where they are. It's the same with other tools that I've used for decades: VS, vi, word, excel. Do they have good GUI? I don't know but it doesn't matter anymore. ------ jonny_eh Is it just more, or wouldn't the blame (recent person who touched a file) be more relevant as a file detail than its most recent commit? ------ rubyfan I don’t love designers inflicting what they think looks good without having real user usage data and input from customers. Just don’t do it. ~~~ Raphmedia Their words: "As a senior-devops engineer, I have zero expertise and no real design credentials."	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Guy posts bug report to Mark Zuckerberg's wall after being ignored by Facebook - aqabawe http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ar&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fkhalil-sh.blogspot.com%2Fp%2F2013.html&act=url ====== aqabawe here's the story by Russia Today: [http://rt.com/news/facebook-post-exploit- hacker-zukerberg-62...](http://rt.com/news/facebook-post-exploit-hacker- zukerberg-621/) ------ Crazywater This looks more like a misunderstanding than somebody being purposefully ignored. Probably the language barrier played a role and the guy at facebook didn't understand what he was trying to say. ------ TallGuyShort A personalized response, at least. I would've expected an automated response resetting his credentials for him.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Chris Lattner, the young developer who made a revolution in the C++ world - cppdesign http://cppdepend.com/blog/?p=1005 ====== seba_dos1 I see various articles about "young wonderchilds" programming in their teens despite their age suggesting that they are perfectly capable to do that once they have chosen to spend their free time learning programming instead of playing soccer, but wondering "how it's possible" when the person is 25yo, when in some fields you can already be a senior developer at this age, is just a whole next level. ------ tsycho The article inconsistently uses Latner and the correct spelling, Lattner. Does no one proof-read these things? ~~~ maybeiambatman 2nd sentence of the article - "Chris Latner is their creator when he has only 25 years old". Should be he was. I know what you mean.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Why Not Bring a Neanderthal to Life? - linhir http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/why-not-bring-a-neanderthal-to-life/ ====== davi _So why not do it? Why not give Harvard’s George Church the money he says could be used to resurrect a Neanderthal from DNA?_ _I’m bracing for a long list of objections from the world’s self-appointed keepers of bioethics_ Good. Brace yourself, Mr. Tierney. First, let's do a little googling. Find, for example, this article: <http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/baby/clon_silver.html> _It's perfectly clear that if cloning works in every other mammal in which it's been tried, it will work in human beings. But at the moment, there is a pretty high frequency of birth defects in these other animals. There are a large number of cloned calves that are born too big and have health problems. As long as that frequency of birth defects is high, and we can't control it, then it would be unethical to use this technology to try to bring about the birth of a child._ OK. So let's pretend you could find a human carrier to gestate your transgenic Neanderthal baby for you. And let's pretend that in course of trying figuring out how to bring a Neanderthal baby to term, 50% abort spontaneously in the third trimester. Let's pretend that in the course of trying to get a Neanderthal baby to the age of 18, 50% die of various congenital malformations. Let's pretend that a Neanderthal is at least as self aware as a _homo sapiens_ with Down Syndrome. Now, let's spend your $30 million elsewhere, please. God, what a trollish article. But it worked on me. This is the kind of article that actually scares people and gets them confused about something relatively innocuous, like stem cells. I have flipped the bozo bit on this guy. And if George Church is really in favor of this idea, I'll flip the bozo bit on him, too. ~~~ gravitycop _let's pretend you could find a human carrier to gestate your transgenic Neanderthal baby for you._ How about a chimpanzee carrier, as George Church suggested? [http://www.google.com/search?q=george+church+chimpanzee+nean...](http://www.google.com/search?q=george+church+chimpanzee+neanderthal) <http://reason.com/news/printer/131717.html> _Church would modify a modern human genome so that its DNA matches the Neanderthal version. [...] this Neanderthal genome would not be inserted into a human cell but instead into a chimpanzee cell. This chimp cell would be reprogrammed to an embryonic state, and then introduced into a chimpanzee's womb where it would develop into a Neanderthal infant._ ~~~ davi Good links, thanks. But do you think a chimpanzee carrier makes it okay to inflict (with reasonably high likelihood) mutations and health problems on animals you are expecting will have near-human, or even human, levels of intelligence? I don't. ~~~ gravitycop _do you think a chimpanzee carrier makes it okay to inflict_ What is the test for "okay"? _okay to inflict (with reasonably high likelihood) mutations and health problems on animals you are expecting will have near-human, or even human, levels of intelligence?_ They could be aborted, instead, by not carrying out the project. <http://news.google.com/news?q=abortion+birth+defects> In the process, an entire race of humans, or near humans, would also be aborted. <http://news.google.com/news?q=racial+genocide> ~~~ jacquesm troll alert... ------ russell There are huge ethical problems. Neanderthals are human or near human. It is quite probable that they can talk. They are not sheep. Before we attempt it we need to know if they can be cloned without subtle brain damage. If something goes wrong, you cant just euthanize the failed experiment. It's an interesting idea, but I dont think we are ready yet, either scientifically or ethically. ------ wheels I think it'd be really interesting seeing the ethical implications of having such a clear example that the difference between humans and animals is only a matter of degree. Which is a neanderthal? What would their rights be? ------ tyohn Would Geico hire him? ------ time_management Off the cuff answer: because he'll get all the girls. Real answer: I think the problems implicit in cloning are foremost. Assuming we're able to surpass those, we have the inherent ethical issues of bringing a human-like (and possibly more complex/intelligent than humans) being into a very strange environment. I think we should do it, if we can guarantee a reasonable likelihood that he or she will not endure an inhuman amount of suffering, but there are a lot of ethical issues that have to be addressed. Who will raise him? How hard will we try to give him a "normal" life and prevent his inevitable celebrity from affecting him? How will we determine if he's competent to own property, attend school, live on his own, etc.? ~~~ gravitycop _possibly more [...] intelligent than humans_ Do you think it is likely that mean modern-Neanderthal (Neanderthal raised in a modern environment) IQ would be higher than mean modern-human IQ? ~~~ time_management I think it's possible, but I have no idea how likely it is. ------ giardini It would make watching professional football more interesting.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Bad Application Architecture Example? - haidrali I am going to explain architecture of a product on which i am currently working under a Software Lead who has +8 years of development experience.<p>We are building a school management system on Rails and Laravel ... in short we are building a BACK END of a product not only two different servers but also on two different languages & technologies i.e. Logging, User Management in Rails Accounts, Academics in Laravel while our front end is in AngularJS<p>According to me this is the perfect example of pathetic architecture because one request from client to Account or Academic module will invoke n HTTPS calls to other servers ( for logging and user management purposes). And biggest mistake is both Laravel and Rails are accessing same Database<p>There are may other scenarios where one can easily figure out that we are doing it completely wrong<p>I have tried so much to understand and try to make some sense out of this architecture but unable to do so. My lead insist this the better architecture It will increase performance of the application<p>Please suggest me Is my Software Lead is RIGHT ... i think NO then what should i do should i leave the company because its effecting my learning as well as patience or should i continue working .... ====== kasey_junk It is impossible to determine if anyone is right/wrong with this limited amount of information. This does sound overly complicated for a proof of concept or early stage application. That said, I've worked on tons of apps that had different languages, different servers, different services etc. And nothing about 2 different code bases talking to the same database is in and of itself bad (in fact many RDBMS are optimized for this case). ------ matt_s Ask the Lead some questions about that architecture. For example, is there a deeper reason or rationale for different middleware on user mgmt and logging vs. academics? Is it possible they will need to scale the academics side, but not the user management? Or more often the case is usually nothing technical at all. Probably someone less technical said "I like [Rails\|Laravel\|X] use that". If that person is in a position of power, the Lead may have been forced into it if that technology is "someone's baby" so to speak. Unfortunately, political, bureaucratic and non-technical reasons are common in technology choices. You may leave and find the same scenario some place else. ~~~ haidrali Thank you for suggestion one of favourite qouted line of my lead is "Facebook and Goole using everything that's why we also should use everything possible" this make me sad about where i am working ------ MalcolmDiggs Well: if it works, is understandable, decently documented, and reasonable performant, then who cares if it seems weird? On the other hand, if you can show (with data) that structuring it this way impedes performance, slows dow the development process, causes structural instability, or will fail at web-scale, then it might be something to worry about. Our opinions about the architecture don't really matter. If you can find objective metrics for which the architecture is will fail to live up to the needs of the program, then that matters quite a bit more. ------ kyllo Having a Rails app and a Laravel app connected to the same database is a bad sign. It makes the two codebases very tightly coupled and changing one is likely to break the other in unpredictable ways. The databases should probably be separate and the Rails and Laravel apps communicating over an API... or just build the whole damn thing in Rails. ~~~ kasey_junk The tight coupling you mention would be indicative of a bad database design (or more likely a bad data model), not bad architecture. There are lots of reasons to communicate over an API, but using the datastore as the mechanism of data exchange is not in and of itself evidence of a bad architecture. Any argument about coupling at the database layer can equally be applied at coupling of the api layer and if there are certain functional requirements that are best supplied by the data store (transactions for instance) it may make more sense to not use an api. Much more troubling to me would be the 2 different technical stacks, though even that can be trivially justified in some environments. ~~~ kyllo If the Rails and Laravel apps are updating the same tables in the database, or even different tables that have foreign key relations with each other, that is a huge problem because changing the data layer in any way will require changing it in three places. If they're confined to separate tables that happen to be in the same database, that's better. But then just putting them in different databases would potentially make configuration and deployment much easier. There's really no valid reason to have two different app frameworks on top of a shared database. ~~~ kasey_junk If you design your database with proper views and stored procedures, name spaced and permissioned correctly for the applications then any data model change that is not coupled in the data model need only be changed in the data store. If the data model itself is coupled then nothing you do will prevent the change crossing the application boundaries (and probably will propagate to more places). There are lots of valid reasons to have multiple app frameworks deal with a shared database. I mentioned one (transactionality) and there are many others.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Did a Chinese Hack Kill Canada’s Greatest Tech Company? - ucha https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-07-01/did-china-steal-canada-s-edge-in-5g-from-nortel ====== JulesPierre This was a story covered by Canadian press some years back. Here is one article from CBC from 2012: [https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/nortel-collapse-linked- to-c...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/nortel-collapse-linked-to-chinese- hackers-1.1260591) I lived in Ottawa during the heyday of Nortel, Corel, JDS, Newbridge and many other tech firms during 90s and 2000s and had many friends and family members employed by Nortel. The slow collapse of Nortel, a behemoth of the Canadian marketplace and a huge employer, and the ensuing job losses and loss of pension funds were heartbreaking. China was able to grow in leaps and bounds its telecom industry in an accelerated matter that v likely couldn't have occurred without espionage.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Defending Eugenics [pdf] - lainon https://philpapers.org/archive/ANODEF.pdf ====== point001dif Precisely what is the goal of a breeding program? To avoid disease, no? Precisely what are the psychological ramifications of eugenics? Is there a benefit from being thought of as more desirable as a 'breeding' partner, or does that belief conflict with psychological health? Is there anything good to be derived from isolating those deemed less worthy of bearing children? Is there a single example of stratification in society that demonstrates plausible soundness of reason when separating people by what are intrinsically arbitrary metrics? If medicine has proven anything, it's that we are far more complex and diverse than we purport to be. Precluding someone via a bus eugenic practice is nothing but exclusionary ignorance based on limited data. It literally makes me sick that there are people who believe this practice is sound. Let's move on to a more cosmopolitan vantage point, shall we? ~~~ marchenko This is s good observation. What is the point of introducing obsolescence cycles into the human species? The associated envy and anxiety alone overwhelms any benefit. ------ FullMtlAlcoholc We already practice eugenics to a limited degree. Greater than 80% of women who detect down's syndrome through prenatal testing get an abortion. ------ marchenko any scheme that burdens humans with this degree of eugenic considerations has the social contract precisely backwards	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Announcing Apple IIgs System 6.0.2 - rottyguy http://www.callapple.org/software/announcing-apple-iigs-system-6-0-2/ ====== artlogic Actually, 6.0.3 was just released: [http://a2central.com/6499/the-source- awakens-system-6-0-3/](http://a2central.com/6499/the-source-awakens- system-6-0-3/) Exciting times for IIgs hackers! ~~~ antidamage The turnaround for 6.0.3 was quite a bit better than 6.0.2. ------ m3talridl3y Google cache: [http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Q2b0VpW...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Q2b0VpWmZBQJ:www.callapple.org/software/announcing- apple-iigs-system-6-0-2/+&cd=1) ------ dmourati My first Apple was a IIgs. We ran a bulletin board system (BBS) on a 2400 bps modem hooked up to a second phone line in the basement. The hard drive was 20 MB and was seriously the size of a large shoebox. Good times on that machine. ~~~ fit2rule Still got it? I bet its still good times. (Old computers never die .. their users do!) ~~~ dmourati Yup. Sitting in my mom's basement. I'm sure it still works. ~~~ fit2rule Would love to hear how you boot it up and crank up the fun times! ------ WaxProlix Grew up on these, my dad had a couple of em around the house. They were so far ahead of even the Performa machines we had at school in so many ways; it really instilled this notion that what you had to work with in terms of raw materials could sometimes take a second seat to ingenuity and drive. Super great system. ------ nekkoru Man, how cool would it be if Apple talked to the devs of this and officially released it as a nostalgia treat or something? ~~~ fit2rule How cool would it be if we didn't abandon these old systems but rather put them to use again, in a new context? Crazier things have happened. ------ kitsunesoba It's awesome to see old machines like this get a little love. The IIgs is obviously very limited in what it can do by today's standards, but these community updates make it that much more usable for what it can do. Now if only a copy of the Classic Mac OS source would kindly surface itself… ~~~ ksherlock The Mac OS System 7.1 source code was leaked a few years back. ~~~ erikj Is System 7 considered abandonware yet? ~~~ pervycreeper >Is System 7 considered abandonware yet? "Abondonware" isn't a real legal status, so it depends on who you ask. But considering Apple still exists, is litigious, and has had classic OS images on its ftp site as of a few years ago (and for all I know, still), I'm going to say no. ------ elmin If at all possible, please consider building things like this as static websites. It makes them faster, cheaper and much more tolerant to load spikes like this. ------ codecamper I had a friend when I was a kid with a IIgs. They were such cool computers. I dont understand this though.. this is seriously a new release of the OS? That is awesome! ~~~ cpach Out of curiosity, what made them different from e.g. a PC with 386 CPU? I guess price may be one thing, but other than that? ~~~ escap Mostly it is an "end-volution" of the Apple II. The CPU was the 16 bits version of the 6502 In addition, it has a really nice sound chip and nice graphics. It could play all the Apple // softwares. And the OS is "mac-ish" ~~~ RRWagner My understanding is that the Apple IIG was designed by members of the Mac team. It's also worth noting that the IIGS had resolution, speed, memory and color that would not be matched on the Mac or PC for years more to come. It was an extraordinary machine. (disclosure: I created HyperStudio for the Apple IIGS in 1988, and the rest, as they say, is history). ~~~ pgib Wow! I _loved_ HyperStudio. We learned so much using it in my school, and I still actually have a floppy disc in my collection with my HyperStudio stack. It's an honour to be able to tip my hat and raise a glass for your contribution. :) [https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31250/gifs/kudos.gif](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31250/gifs/kudos.gif) ------ nevster Really need to dig my GS out of that box in my garage. Bit scared of things not working after 15 years... ------ tempodox I assume I would need the original hardware for this? My oldest Mac is a 1995 MacBook running 7.6.1, the nicest classic OS I've seen. The battery's long been dead, but the machine still runs on mains power. ~~~ artlogic It should run just fine on an emulator. If you've got a Mac, Sweet16 is the way to go: [http://www.sheppyware.net/software- mac/sweet16/](http://www.sheppyware.net/software-mac/sweet16/) However, I get the feeling you are thinking of Mac OS - this is for the Apple IIgs - an entirely different beast. However, if you're interested in running old versions of Mac OS, give Basilisk II a try: [http://basilisk.cebix.net/](http://basilisk.cebix.net/) Most Older OSes up to 7.5.5 can be downloaded directly from Apple last I checked. I particularly liked Mac OS 6.0.8 for it's simplicity. ------ amelius Does anybody know if the fonts used on the old mac and IIgs are available somewhere? ~~~ rjsw Just copy them off a mac, there are TrueType versions of most of the original ones in System 7.5. Starting at Susan Kare's Wikipedia page I was able to find links to public domain versions of Chicago [1] and Charcoal [2], which other ones do you want ? EDIT: There are also bitmap versions of mac fonts in ET++ [3], an early X11 toolkit. [1] [http://christtrekker.users.sourceforge.net/fnt/chicago.shtml](http://christtrekker.users.sourceforge.net/fnt/chicago.shtml) [2] [http://www.scootergraphics.com/virtue/](http://www.scootergraphics.com/virtue/) [3] [http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/c_plus_plus/lib...](http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/c_plus_plus/library/et_plus_plus) ~~~ amelius Thanks! ------ antidamage About time. ------ DiabloD3 Man, makes me wish I had a IIgs.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
A “Hello World” virtual machine running the Hurd - crichter https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2020/a-hello-world-virtual-machine-running-the-hurd/ ====== rvz Unfortunately, the Hurd has become a very bad recurring April fools joke at this point. Interesting concepts though, but really if you must learn about microkernels you should definitely be looking at Fuchsia/Zircon.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
“Let’s go caroling” - Latest Google Easter Egg for Android Users - techaddict009 http://eyuva.com/2013/12/lets-go-caroling.html ====== techaddict009 Did any of HN readers tried this on their Android Phone ? ~~~ ktsmith Yup, works as advertised. My phone is playing Jingle Bells right now. ~~~ techaddict009 Haha ! Enjoy ! Happy Christmas in Advance :)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Nextdoor CEO Takes Blame for Deleting of Black Lives Matter Posts - pseudolus https://www.npr.org/2020/07/01/886147665/it-s-our-fault-nextdoor-ceo-takes-blame-for-censorship-of-black-lives-matter-pos ====== zohandev There is nothing wrong in deleting something related to the damaging Marxist operation/ BLM. ~~~ onyva Define Marxist... I’m sure you wouldn’t know what a Marxist is if Marx himself stood in front of you and read you Das Kapital in plain English. Problem with getting your education at Fox News University is that you become progressively more stupid.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
'Cloning' makes human stem cell - protagonist_h http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15191866 ====== ern Link to the original paper (or abstract, for those of us who lack access): [http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v478/n7367/full/nature1...](http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v478/n7367/full/nature10397.html) ~~~ jessriedel > The exchange of the oocyte’s genome with the genome of a somatic cell, > followed by the derivation of pluripotent stem cells, could enable the > generation of specific cells affected in degenerative human diseases. Such > cells, carrying the patient’s genome, might be useful for cell replacement. > Here we report that the development of human oocytes after genome exchange > arrests at late cleavage stages in association with transcriptional > abnormalities. In contrast, if the oocyte genome is not removed and the > somatic cell genome is merely added, the resultant triploid cells develop to > the blastocyst stage. Stem cell lines derived from these blastocysts > differentiate into cell types of all three germ layers, and a pluripotent > gene expression program is established on the genome derived from the > somatic cell. This result demonstrates the feasibility of reprogramming > human cells using oocytes and identifies removal of the oocyte genome as the > primary cause of developmental failure after genome exchange. "Oocyte" = egg cell. "Somatic" = normal (non-ovum/sperm) body cell. "Pluripotent" = capable of developing into all cell types. ------ ars Can you imagine the ruckus if he had actually implanted this embryo? Wow. Up till now human cloning was impossible. Would be especially interesting for a woman to do this to her own eggs since the chromosome mixing would not change anything in that case. Someone tell me if I've misunderstood this. ~~~ onemoreact You it might be viable but it would not be a clone in the traditional meaning. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelters_syndrome> ------ checoivan This is huge. Recollected pluripotent cells can only be reproduced and divided a very limited number of times with the techniques we know so far (it used to be ~2x). A big problem was that only a very small amount of stem cells usable for treatment can be collected from ,say, like a placenta. ------ jcfrei quick, let's get some of jobs skin cells! on a more serious note: I wonder whether the state of the skin cells matter - eg. would this work on conserved/dead skin cells as well?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
A geriatric assault on Italy's bloggers - acangiano http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/the_web/article2732802.ece ====== jcwentz This is almost as embarrassing as Kansas mandating that creationism be taught in biology classes. ------ davidw That's from last October. I don't think it was actually passed.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Venezuela’s death spiral is getting worse - JumpCrisscross https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/08/venezuela-is-stuck-in-a-death-spiral-and-its-only-getting-worse/ ====== jimmywanger I've been following this fairly closely. It seems that the main thing that causes this is government control of production, and price controls. The Nordics (held up often as a "good" model of socialism) is a welfare state. They increase taxes on the rich, and redistribute the money to the poor to narrow societal inequality. They do _not_ mess around with the basic laws of supply and demand, or nationalize production mechanisms. A socialist government sets price caps for certain goods, and nationalizes companies who refuse to produce for less than their costs, i.e. nationalizing production mechanisms. Also they messed around with currency exchange rates. Econ 101 will tell you that if you set artificially low price controls on goods, you will run into shortages, as there is no incentive to produce. And if you nationalize factories and replace talented employees with party hacks who toe the line, production will drop further, exacerbating the problem. Venezuela was able to avoid this for a while by importing goods with oil money, but even when oil prices were high, they had shortages of goods. [https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/06/10/venezuelas-last-hope- le...](https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/06/10/venezuelas-last-hope-leopoldo- lopez-maduro/) (search for "during the Chavez years") Now they can't afford to import food or raw materials anymore, because they have no hard currency reserves, and 100 bolivars (the largest denomination bill they have) is worth roughly ten cents, and the government won't change them into dollars at any rate unless you're connected. To their surprise, you can't just decide to product food and start up factories after a multiyear hiatus. You can't spin up crops, and agricultural and industrial institutional knowledge has been lost, or has fled the country. ------ gozur88 This is the typical "disease" of South and Central American democracy. Voters want to have a Northern European welfare state. And who could blame them? But they don't have the economy they need for a Northern European welfare state. Eventually Maduro will be replaced in a coup, or there will be a communist revolution. After a few years the government will transition to (mostly) free market democracy again, and we'll see a repeat of the whole cycle. ~~~ Randgalt Venezuela has the largest oil reserves in the world and they still failed. That's a special kind of insanity. ------ Randgalt Socialism - the plague that keeps on killing. They'll keep trying it until they kill everyone. I remember when hipsters were praising Chavez's miracle. Where's Sean Penn now? Disgusting. ~~~ pkulak Capitalism has failed spectacularly before, and socialism is succeeding in many places right now. And beyond that, I can't think of any pure example of either that has succeeded. Somewhere in the middle is usually what ends up working the best. ~~~ paulddraper Where has capitalism failed spectacularly? I can only think of counterexamples. Though triggered by speculation, after the first few months, the Great Depression was sustained by increased tariffs and the government crowding the private market. The 2008 recession was caused by the government meddling in loans. And on the other side...communism has failure after failure: China, USSR, North Korea. Socialism too, ranging from mild (rampant unemployment in France and Spain) to severe (Greece's finances, or the reoccurring South American crises). What spectacular failures were you thinking of? ~~~ abawany Just asking: how would you classify the US Recession of 2008 (esp. if the taxpayer-funded bailouts had not been done), the 1929 US Depression, and the world wealth imbalance? As for Venezuela, what role do you think the oil market price collapse and the US embargo had on their economy? Also, it is unusual that you classify Greece as socialist - one almost imagines that for you, socialism is synonymous with failure. ~~~ paulddraper > it is unusual that you classify Greece as socialist [http://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/01/greek-disaster-is-all- about-s...](http://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/01/greek-disaster-is-all-about- socialism.html) In fact, up until the debt crisis, the Panhellenic _Socialist_ Movement (PASOK) was Greece's largest political party. Naturally, it has fallen out of favor since then. ------ DigitalJack It wouldn't be a death spiral if it wasn't. ------ vondur I'm honestly surprised that the US hasn't gotten involved yet. It's now at the point where it is a humanitarian crisis. ~~~ PhantomGremlin Hate to be cynical about it, but ... Sorry. That's so 20th century. The USA used to openly meddle there all the time. E.g. Panama wouldn't even exist without our help. Then we decided to be a little more subtle. Well, that didn't work so well. Quite the thing about 30 years ago was Iran-Contra[1], where we were trying to fight the communists in Nicaragua. But I guess that was the wrong kind of help. A real domestic political shitstorm ensued. The crap was all over the airwaves for literally years. And, lo and behold, Daniel Ortega is now back in charge. No matter what the USA could do in Venezuela, there would be plenty of anti- American wailing, gnashing of teeth, and propaganda that would immediately erupt. Domestically, from all the banana republics in Central and South America, and from countless countries all over the world. Not worth it for the USA. Very little upside. And it really, really sucks for all the people who are literally starving in Venezuela right now. And, besides, how are Iraq and Afghanistan working out, lately? Anybody know? There should be some really stable democracies there by now, considering the billions, nay trillions of dollars, we've spent there recently in "nation building". [1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair) ~~~ geezerjay > There should be some really stable democracies there by now Why would anyone ever assume that? I mean, the country was essentially started from scratch after the 2003 invasion, the constitution of Iraq was ratified in 2005, and 5 years later the coalition forces abandoned Iraq and left the fragile regime to fend off for themselves. This happened in a moment in time when 3 or 4 neighboring regimes were interfering directly in Iraq and the past ruling class, civilian and military, (i.e., the ones who actually had any experience running things) was banned and forced without any option beyond mobilizing for a rebellion. No wonder Iraq succumbed into a civil war a couple of years after the US abandoned it.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
How do you look for jobs? - meat_fist Just curious on some discussion about how the HN community goes about searching for a new job. Whether it is via networking, linkdedin or various job boards I was just curious how everyone went about it. ====== danielkyulee 1\. The best way to get a job is through your own current network. Even if you have never done 'networking,' realize you already have a network. Your classmates from high school and college, parents of your friends, friends of friends, people from your community, your neighbors, your professors, your professors friends, etc. They are all part of your network. See what they are all up to and see if they can recommend you to a job or introduce you to someone who can. Companies love to hire people that they already know. I'd love to see someone argue against this claim. 2\. If you exhausted your current network, then maybe you should build your network. Make a list of jobs/companies you'd want to work for, and instead of blindly applying to those jobs, try to meet up with someone who has the job you want, or works at the company you want to work at. It's best to get an intro, but cold-calling also works (although you're probably going to get a lot of no responses, you only need that one person who can help you get a job). Tell them that you want to know more about their job/company, and ask them if they could possibly spare some time to give advice. Offer to buy them coffee. You'd be surprised how many people are willing to help people who want advice. Once you have built a relationship, its much more likely they can recommend or refer you to a job. Can you get a job by simply applying to a job? Of course, it happens all the time. But networking always improves your odds. ------ phantom_oracle I don't know how others do it, but I would rank it in this order: Personal network - recruiters - apply directly You (and others) are welcome to contest this order, as I am typing it in a bit of a rush. ~~~ mcrider What is your experience with recruiters like? I'm about to move to a new city and got hooked up with a recruiter through a friend. He seems very well connected and professional but I'm a little nervous about putting my job prospects in his hands. Anything I should be wary of? ~~~ fredophile I'm not the poster you replied to but I've worked with a couple recruiters. A good recruiter is a useful tool in your job hunt. They have a lot more info than you will. At most you'll be looking for work every few years. They're constantly dealing with the recruiting process at different companies. They can help time things to get you multiple offers at the same time. This puts you in a good negotiating position. They can also do the negotiating for you. They usually get paid a percentage based on your salary so it's in their interest to get you a good rate. You should also continue to look for work on your own. I wouldn't just use a recruiter. Keep them informed about where you're applying. They should always ask before sending your résumé out but this helps them know where to focus their efforts. If you don't like working with them or lose trust in them just stop working with them. Good recruiters get a lot of business from referrals (that's how they got your business) so they want to get a deal that'll make you happy even if it doesn't make them quite as much money as another position would. In my last job hunt I ended up taking the lowest paying offer I received because it was a better fit in other ways. That cost the recruiter money in the short term but I'd recommend him to people I know if they're looking. ------ munimkazia So far, I have got all my previous jobs through contacts and friends. However, I am trying to get a remote job now, and since I don't know anyone who works in these organizations, it is turning out to be my first real job search. ~~~ wikwocket Have you tried weworkremotely.com, or searching for "remote" in the monthly HN "Who is Hiring?" threads? ~~~ bitshepherd There's also wfh.io ~~~ munimkazia Ah, I haven't heard of this one before. Thanks, I will have a look. ------ 27182818284 Real life networking will produce you the jobs fastest. When I increased my presence at local events, even events not at all centered around recruiting / hiring, there was a huge increase in job chatter. ------ Fenicio What is your best chance if you lack a personal network or your personal network is in no place to help? Assuming there are no local events or they are out of reach (geographically or time-based) ------ tvvocold [https://news.ycombinator.com/jobs](https://news.ycombinator.com/jobs)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
In the beginning was the command line (1999) [pdf] - bookofjoe https://faculty.georgetown.edu/irvinem/theory/Stephenson-CommandLine-1999.pdf ====== ackbar03 I'm guessing some on the hacker news crowd already know this but the author neal Stephenson also wrote Crytonomicon which was the prerequisite reading book for the PayPal mafia back in the days. I've personally only read his book reamde but the accuracy in detail in the novels really reflect quite deep understanding of the tech world including the shadier parts ~~~ fmajid Cryptonomicon is OK, but far inferior to Snow Crash and The Diamond Age. I think the latter is an incredibly inspiring vision of technology used for good, as opposed to how today’s best and brightest are focusing their energy into increasing ad click-through conversion rates by 3%. ~~~ IggleSniggle Diamond Age was amazing when I read it in 2008. I couldn’t believe it had been written in ‘95, given its vision of (what we call) 3d printers, Amazon Turks, software mediated 1:1 relationships, etc. I imagine reading it today, it would read as a likely near-future-history, but in 95 it must have seemed laden with far-fetched original invention, both technological and societal. ~~~ Barrin92 the most salient insight from the diamond age is in my opinion the isolated and fragmented nature of the internet and the extreme segregation into cultural communities, when at the same time everyone was talking about how the internet is going to connect everyone and erode all borders. ~~~ dllthomas Reading some of that in the modern era was... uncomfortable but probably valuable. ------ ubermonkey I read this when it was current. I am now old. Stephenson had a great sideline in really deep-dive nonfiction pieces there for a while (around the same time that Wired was experimenting with running them, _in print_ ). It was a pretty great combination. ~~~ hudibras I'm so old I bought this when it was published in paperback. [https://www.amazon.com/Beginning-was-Command- Line/dp/0380815...](https://www.amazon.com/Beginning-was-Command- Line/dp/0380815931) Edit: Amazon informs me that I purchased it on 19 June 2000. ~~~ non-entity I always forget Amazon's been around that long. ~~~ smhenderson Yeah, IIRC they were still just a book store back then with B&N competing nicely with them. Seems like such a long time ago now! ~~~ hudibras That same order from June 2000 included five other books and one Sega Dreamcast game (Grand Theft Auto 2), so they must have had a few non-book departments back then. ~~~ smhenderson I guess getting into other media was probably the logical first step so makes sense. ------ invalidOrTaken Hacker with bullhorn: "Save your money! Accept one of our free tanks! It is invulnerable, and can drive across rocks and swamps at ninety miles an hour while getting a hundred miles to the gallon!" Prospective station wagon buyer: "I know what you say is true...but...er...I don’t know how to maintain a tank!" Bullhorn: "You don’t know how to maintain a station wagon either!" Buyer: "But this dealership has mechanics on staff. If something goes wrong with my station wagon, I can take a day off work, bring it here, and pay them to work on it while I sit in the waiting room for hours, listening to elevator music." Bullhorn: "But if you accept one of our free tanks we will send volunteers to your house to fix it for free while you sleep!" Buyer: "Stay away from my house, you freak!" Speculative economists take note: abundance is hard. ------ dang Many previous threads: [https://hn.algolia.com/?query=In%20the%20beginning%20was%20t...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=In%20the%20beginning%20was%20the%20command%20line%20comments>0&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=story&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0) ~~~ bookofjoe I figured a year was a decent interval... ~~~ 9034725985 I think he linked it so new readers can see the older comments and get clued in to the conversation. (: I remember reading In the beginning was the command line back in high school. I liked the comparison with cars. I'm a little sad I never got to use the BeOS that the author so much likens to a batmobile (going from memory). This article even has its own Wikipedia article [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Beginning..._Was_the_Co...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Beginning..._Was_the_Command_Line) For new readers, I'd also strongly recommend "Mother Earth Mother Board" by the same author, Neal Stephenson. In Mother Earth Mother Board, the author writes about the fiber optic cables that connect us across continents. Original: [https://www.wired.com/1996/12/ffglass/](https://www.wired.com/1996/12/ffglass/) Previously discussed [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15635028](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15635028) [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8242682](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8242682) ~~~ samman >I'm a little sad I never got to use the BeOS that the author so much likens to a batmobile (going from memory). You may be interested in Haiku OS then... [https://www.haiku- os.org/](https://www.haiku-os.org/) ------ sandymcmurray I loved this essay, and own a paperback copy. I also loved his novels Zodiac, REAMDE (a fast, fun read), and Anathem, which was a tough read at first, but I ended up loving it. (I started the first novel of his Baroque Cycle but got bogged down and never finished those ones.) ~~~ laurentl If you read Zodiac, Anathem and (part of) the Baroque Cycle I assume you’ve read his other books (Cryptonomicon, Diamond Age, Snowcrash...). If not, lucky you! I discovered Stephenson with Anathem and I was hooked. This book doesn’t get a lot of love it seems, maybe because it’s not Stephenson's usual cyberpunk / near future sci-fi (and maybe because of all the made-up words and history—there’s even an xkcd comic about it). But (SPOILERS) you gotta admire a book that starts like _The Name of the Rose_ and finishes in a nuke- propelled starship. ------ Aardwolf In the very beginning, there were light bulbs and wiring panels... ~~~ Insanity I guess you could go back a bit earlier? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Difference_engine#Charles_Babb...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Difference_engine#Charles_Babbage's_difference_engines) ------ ai_ja_nai splendid reading, an enlightening essay about society and operating systems as a mediated experience methaphore ------ riazrizvi Gates worked as a programmer in high school, so he was aware that the practice of selling software was not new. IBM was a long standing company by that point that made money writing software for businesses. The first example of a person making money from machine instructions was Jaquard (1804) who encoded his instructions on punch cards and fed them into weaving machines to create pretty patterns. So graphics programmers came first. ~~~ kragen IBM didn't sell software until the consent decree forced them to, and Jacquard cards (or dobby patterns for that matter) are uncompressed graphics files, not programs to generate graphics algorithmically. Many machines in the 1950s used Williams-tube memory and drove additional visible CRTs from the signals, so every program was a graphics program. But that was a century after Lovelace. Jacquard and dobby patterns were generally created by employees of the loom owner.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Where to go from here? - WhereToGo Hi all,<p>I'm posting under a throw away account because I have friends involved that would know my original account.<p>I've been interviewing at a Los Angeles-based game developer for a web developer position. I have a few friends who work there. The interview process is wrapping up, and has been great. Things are looking very positive. I'm very positive that I will be receiving an offer from them.<p>I'm from the mid-west, working at a small company that I truly dislike. I also have friends here, which at least makes being at work enjoyable, but is despise my boss because of certain things he does. I could go on for hours about him, but mainly I just feel like he doesn't deserve the things he has managed to get - he's just a scumbag. I code at work here, too. I'm aching to quit but am scared to quit without something to move to - I only have about $10,000 saved up.<p>So, this job change would seemingly be a great opportunity. It'd put me out in CA doing web coding at a young, neat company. But, I honestly feel in my gut that it's not what I want. I just feel like what I'd be doing there would be so insignificant. I want to be creating neat, useful tools that help people on a daily basis. I want to be creating services of value to people. It is what I have always been passionate about.<p>So I am confused as to what I should do. Moving to California has always been a dream of mine, but not under these circumstances, really. I always thought that if I were moving out there, it'd be to San Francisco to live out my dream. I just think if I moved to LA, I'd stare out the window wishing it were SF I was looking at. It's not exactly about location, for me, it's more about doing what I love and feeling fulfilled by it.<p>This feeling has been ramping as I proceed through this interview. I just read this blog post (http://www.tawheedkader.com/2010/09/how-i-made-a-principled-decision-to-quit-my-six-figure-day-job/) and am in a pretty irrational state of mind right now. I feel like quitting my current job, turning down this game company offer if they make it, and using my $10,000 to try to bootstrap my own project. This would be the most insane course of action if I were to ask anyone in my family, or maybe even anyone else at all. But, I feel like life is short and if I don't try this now then I'll never have the chance again.<p>What do you all think? Should I take this new job offer if it's made, and move out to LA? Should I remain at my current job, and bootstrap something in my free time? Should I go all in, and quit my current job and bootstrap something? ====== sagacity My 0.02 :-) Option 1: As you said, continue your current job (rationalising it as a part of 'startup pain') while bootstraping your startup. Option 2: Join the LA company; it would at least bring you closer to SF, and keep looking for openings/opportunities in your areas of choice. (You could continue to bootstrap even in this case.) Given what you've described above, I'd say option 2 (if it comes through) would be a better choice. HTH and all the best. ------ dotBen Sure, LA is _in_ California but it is far away from SF and Silicon Valley that it is a different place. I speak from experience - I live in SF having moved from London in 2006. At the time I had a large offer from an LA based firm, a firm I later did a year's stint at by commuting between SF and LA. LA is NOT SF. If you move to LA you will have a ton of fun outside of work but you will still lack the buzz that is SF. Take a week's vacation from your job and travel out to SF for interviews and meet people. Hit me up (email in the profile) if you want meet up. You'll almost certainly get offers and that should be enough to prove it is worth moving out here for. The bottom line is that many startups won't make offers or even interview you unless you are here in the city and so you gotta be out here even just to plan the next move. ------ chipsy At first I thought it would be less risky to do LA first and typed up as much. But now I'm thinking otherwise. You absolutely can do it in one step if you are motivated enough and can sell yourself. With $10k you can expect to live for at least 3-4 months in a cheap fashion(carless, renting with roommates) in the Bay Area. So start by planning for a long vacation out here - get a weekly-rate motel, AirBnB, or go couchsurfing. Go to the local hackerspaces, go to meetups, make some contacts. Get a good demo side project together. Maybe complete the demo, then quit your job and move. If you like the demo as a product, you can try pitching it. You might need funding to take it further, but that route is as possible as a job in the current environment. ------ hjw3001 Sounds like you need to look for additional options, if you don't like your current job and this new opportunity doesn't sound like an ideal fit. If you are doing software work and want to move to SF instead of LA, plus work on "creating neat, useful tools that help people" there are lots of companies hiring in the Bay Area. Just keep looking until you find the right opportunity, or are ready to start your own thing. Moving to a city you don't want to be in for a job you're not excited about is a bad idea. ------ shiftb Obviously the one clear course of action is to leave your current company. You hate it there, and it isn't taking you where you want to go. If you're talented, you won't have any trouble finding work in SF. You could take a small amount of your savings and 'move' to SF for a couple weeks. Make sure you like it, and work the networks to find a job. If you're going to go on your own, definitely apply to YC. ------ HardyLeung Why not leave the current company, join the new one (or look for one if such option is available), and moonlight your project?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Benchmarks: LLVM, gcc - gtani http://www.cocoageek.com/2008/08/llvm-gcc-benchmarks/ ====== jws Soft benchmarks, but it is nice to see a real word data point from an independent person. LLVM being a little faster is nice, but that isn't the biggest reason for its popularity. 1) IDE developers (well one) that don't wish to be GPL compatible needed a compiler that communicates semantic information to the IDE that they could integrate without infecting themselves with a GPL license. clang/llvm exists for this. 2) API and JIT. If you wish to generate code programatically this can be a win. I've written functions to temporary files, forked a gcc, and dynamically loaded the objects, but it isn't the fast way and it isn't the clean way. 3) LLVM is modular and agile. Extend or twist it fairly easily. Try to twist gcc and it may take your hand off. ~~~ gtani the _other_ gcc alternatives are pretty obscure (ok, distcc's not obscure): pcc <http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1168313> clue <http://cluecc.sourceforge.net/> ucc <http://sourceforge.net/projects/ucc>	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: A good Google Adsense alternative? - E765 I have been working on a website for a few months and it has picked up in traffic. I applied for Google Adsense but they declined me because of the coronavirus (and apparently they are denying everyone). Are there any good alternatives? ====== mtmail Related "Ask HN: Google Adsense Alternative?" [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21397274](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21397274) from 5 months earlier ~~~ E765 Thank you!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Practice does not always make perfect, finds study of violinists - EwanToo https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/aug/21/practice-does-not-always-make-perfect-violinists-10000-hour-rule ====== anthony_doan > “Practice makes you better than you were yesterday, most of the time,” she > said. “But it might not make you better than your neighbour. Or the other > kid in your violin class.” I like the ending. Self improvement should be more important than just comparing yourself with others for most things. And it is up to oneself to figure out if it's worth continuing or that the skill is worth your time. ~~~ abootstrapper Practice makes better. ~~~ CalRobert My choral director long ago liked the phrase "practice makes permanent". Practicing the wrong technique can be deleterious. ------ blue_devil 2 methodological issues: >> They interviewed three groups of 13 violinists [...] before having them complete daily diaries of their activities over a week. You're basically priming interviewees, and without a control group, you're unable to partial out the variance due to "being interviewed". They need diaries from people who were interviewed _after_ taking diaries, and a group of people never interviewed. >> [... ] complete daily diaries of their activities _over_a _week. While the less skilful violinists clocked up an average of about 6,000 hours of practice by the age of 20, there was little to separate the good from the best musicians, with each logging an average of about 11,000 hours Extrapolation from a 1-week diary to your entire life until age 20? ------ scottlocklin Gee, something Malcolm Gladwell said in one of his wormy love letters to the upper middle class might be completely false? I'm terribly surprised! [https://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/30/malcolm_gladwell_no...](https://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/30/malcolm_gladwell_no/) [https://staffanspersonalityblog.wordpress.com/2013/10/24/am-...](https://staffanspersonalityblog.wordpress.com/2013/10/24/am- i-missing-something-or-is-malcolm-gladwell-a-fraud/) [http://monkeysuncle.stanford.edu/?p=541](http://monkeysuncle.stanford.edu/?p=541) ~~~ swsieber So, I get that you like to hate on Malcom Gladwell, but I feel this particular instance it's a little overblown. There is a huge difference between "Excellence requires 10,000 hours of deliberate practice" and "If you log 10,000 you will be excellent". The article would disprove the second, but I always came away with the impression of the first (after reading the book). So to me, in this instance, I'd say "Gee, a misinterpretation of what somebody else said is false? What a surprise". ~~~ genghizkhan The issue is that Malcolm Gladwell wanted a catchy number/title, and 10,000 hours happened to be one which caught his (and admittedly even my own) fancy. The book "Outliers" does not try to delve into the places where the 10,000 rule doesn't work. And more importantly, if you read the literature, you'll find that there's a great deal of dependence on the kind of practice you do. Merely performing mindless repetition isn't going to help at all. You require a certain kind of focussed practice to get the benefits of the 10,000 hours rule Gladwell extols. The book "Peak: Secrets from the New Science of Expertise" goes in depth about the fallacies in Galdwell's book. One of the authors of that book is the guy whose research formed the basis of Gladwell's own book. I would recommend you read that in order to understand where Gladwell misleads. In summary, if what you want from a book is pseudo-scientific reasoning for increasing practice time, Malcolm Gladwell is your man. If his words motivate you to practice harder, go ahead and read him. However, if you want scientific reasoning behind why practicing works and how to extract the most out of it, you'd best look elsewhere. The statement "Excellence requires 10,000 hours of deliberate practice" is itself untrue. This varies wildly with the kind of practice you do, the kind of feedback you get, and the field in which you wish to gain excellence. Oversimplification, as Gladwell does, is an easy way to make yourself a target of accusations of quackery. The statement that "Excellence requires many hours of deliberate practice, and you'd better practice things the correct way for your practice routine to work for you" might be a better characterisation of the science as is currently understood. ------ vintermann Anyone who knows anything about violins or violinists, know that the difference between the "best" and the merely "very good" is rather arbitrary, subjective and down to fashion (or even nonmusical factors). It's thus not surprising practice makes little difference - all those violinists are as good at the technical aspects as you can sensibly get. ~~~ sirspacey As a classically trained violinist with decades Of experience as a professional musician, this is not at all my experience. At the age of 16 I was dedicating 6 to 8 hours a day practicing. That was the norm among my classmates. The lead violinist in our orchestra was a prodigy who picked up and mastered a piece in two weeks which most of us would never be able to play. Trained violinists can tell the difference between many levels of ability and performance. The truth is that there are people who can play the instrument beyond the reach of everyone else. That’s true for any highly technical instrument, of which the violin is certainly one. If studying violin taught me anything, it is that there is a power law to human ability and deliberate practice is simply an augmentation (which is also an unevenly distributes ability). ------ AceyMan One of my canonical examples of "first, start with talent" is found in the world's great football (soccer) players. As the most popular sport in the world—and one which a huge share of young persons try to attain some mastery AND where scouts comb every corner of the earth in search of talent—the stars of the sport are outliers on the orders of 1 in 10^7. This YT clip (2m33s) of Neymar, Jr doing "The Crossbar Challenge" demonstrates how far out on the long tail the best players are. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zre- uH2p4M0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zre-uH2p4M0) I think it's not controversial to claim no amount of practice could take you to this level unless you "have it." ~~~ perl4ever If talent, luck, resources, and a temperament for hard work are assigned randomly, some people will have all of them, and you will find them at the top. What stories they tell themselves or others about the key to success are irrelevant, because only people with _every_ advantage can be the best. That's what being the best is. How can one factor be more important? ------ bsder I believe that the current phrase is: "Practice makes _permanent_." It's up to the person to make sure that what they practice is correct. ~~~ kcoul Exactly - I have done a number of research studies focused on how musicians do or do not develop robust memory models of the pieces they learn, based on how they practice, and the data consistently pointed to a correlation between robustness and practice approach. Anyone who has taught piano for example knows the most common mistake of novice students is to omit sharp or flat notes (the black notes) when learning notated music which begins to include them. In this case, the student will practice the wrong notes for long enough before their next lesson that the wrong notes become engrained in their memory model, resurfacing under duress such as in recital. There are similarities for other instruments (strings: intonation, woodwinds: embouchure, percussion: rhythmic accuracy, etc.) The most talented students seem to gravitate consistently towards robust memory models for their respective instruments technique as a way of freeing themselves up as quickly as possible for the more enjoyable aspects of perfecting a piece of music: refining expression. Perhaps one day there will be tools which can assist those less naturally predisposed to developing robust memory models, before it's too late for their brain, the way the most talented students do. ------ kerng After reading this article I'm not sure if I read or learned anything new. The article tries to challenge the 10000 hours rule, but fails to provide details or numbers that suggest what other factors would be more important. It briefly mentions things like "talent", but after reading Growth Mindset I'm convinced that talent alone just provides a starting advantage. The book gives plenty of examples of that. The article should highlight more what kind of practice they refer to and what they think is the main contributing factor. I think to become an expert in something like playing a musical instrument focused practice and repetition is necessary, so having the right coach is extremely important. However, the most crucial piece might actually be the passion or willingness to learn in my opinion. ~~~ Blackstone4 I feel like I hold two conflicting beliefs...growth mindset (the brain is a muscle which can be exercised) and inherit talent... My belief in growth mindset has help me improve my communication skills both oral and written. However I also recognise that I have certain limitations based on natural talent. For instance, I’m likely to never to be as good at word games (i.e. scrabble) as many friends and family members. This is at odds with my growth mindset to a certain extent. Maybe any skill can be improved upon but natural talent gives us an inherit advantage over the rest of the field. ~~~ apersona The model I have right now is that talent is learning rate, so I don't see how the beliefs conflict with each other. Some people pick things up faster than others, but if you put more effort you can still catch up. It also explains why even talented people still need to practice/learn/etc. to be at the top of their fields. ~~~ kerng A friend of mine is a professional violinist. People say she is really talented and skilled. The interesting thing is that she gets very upset when people say: you are so talented. The reason she explained to me once is that people see her perform and play and think that's just how easy it is for her. She said to me once: "Noone sees the thousands of hours I practiced by myself in a dark rehearsal room without even a window at school". That was quite enlightening to me. So, if someone says it's just "talent", its quite offensive to her. It's hard and dedicated work. ~~~ AstralStorm But it is true. Take any random person and get them to train for this many hours, they won't even come close. Both are necessary. She gets upset because she bought into the culture that tells us we control everything about ourselves. Which is somewhat of a lie in many ways. ~~~ kerng No, she gets upset because people ignore the fact that she had to work to become that good. Also, any random person can learn to play violin sufficient enough to play in an orchestra (besides a physical or mental disability maybe). Maybe not professionally because that needs addition passion and dedication and there is a lot of competition. But playing good enough for a community orchestra that requires audition, pretty much anyone can achieve. ------ ChrisRR As a learning violinist with 2 years experience I can understand this completely, especially with good teaching and focused practice. I noticed a real difference between when I switched from a teacher more suited to children to one more for adults. My practice became more focused, my time was better spent and overall the quality of my playing drastically improved. Additionally, if my teacher is away for a week and I go without a lesson, I notice that I can spend a lot of time creating bad habits which then become muscle memory. So I can understand why 10k hours of poor quality practice can be worth 5k hours of good, focused practice ------ chasing > In the book, Gladwell states that “ten thousand hours is the magic number of > greatness”. > “The idea has become really entrenched in our culture, but it’s an > oversimplification,” said Brooke Macnamara, a psychologist at Case Western > Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio. Yeah, that's because Malcolm Gladwell peddles bullshit. ~~~ juniusfree The 10,000-Hour Rule Was Wrong, According to the People Who Wrote the Original Study [https://www.inc.com/nick-skillicorn/the-10000-hour-rule- was-...](https://www.inc.com/nick-skillicorn/the-10000-hour-rule-was-wrong- according-to-the-people-who-wrote-the-original-stu.html) ~~~ lonelappde That article is a list of irrelevant nitpickery and mischaracterization of Gladwell. [https://www.newyorker.com/sports/sporting- scene/complexity-a...](https://www.newyorker.com/sports/sporting- scene/complexity-and-the-ten-thousand-hour-rule) ------ irjustin I feel like this is responding to the extreme simplification simply practicing more produces results which is analogous to the 10,000 hour Gladwell comment. Most people would agree simply spending hours on something doesn't usually get you very far. It's the quality of that training tied to your own aptitude for the subject. Sadly or thankfully, since we don't know the limits of our own aptitudes, we can really only do high quality training to see where we peak out. I think it's easy to believe that the above statement is widely understood, but it's not. Meet any kid who has been forced to do piano, swimming or whatever by their parents. My parents and I know so many others who simply forced their kids to practice practice practice in hopes it will lead somewhere. 12 years of piano. I barely even know how to read music and play any instrument. ~~~ iovrthoughtthis Repetition without feedback (from reflection or assessment) is just repetition. You need some feedback about how wrong you are and in what dimension. You then have to adjust that dimension proportionally to the feedback. All of that is hard. ------ Daub As an art teacher, I have certainly seen the best artists evolve naturally from those who also work the hardest. As Weisberg mentions in 'Creativity: Beyond the Myth of Genius', when the Beatles moved to Hamburg, they were a run of the mill band. When they returned, they were the Beatles as we know them. The reason: gigging four hours a day, seven days a week over one year. However, I have also seen other factors play a part. Certainly, the very intelligent artists are prone to self-destruictive criticism, and frequently fade from view. But in my experience, the most important thing an artists can posses is a coherent sense of self. ~~~ majos When you think of the "best artists" you've seen, are you making any distinction between technical and creative skill? For example, there are many great studio musicians who are nonetheless nowhere near as good as composers of original music. I would expect that technical skill is a more natural outgrowth of hard work than creative skill, even as the Beatles-in-Hamburg story claims a growth in creative skill. ~~~ Daub Well... generally I would say that a good artist is a mix of the technically adept, some kind of sense of self, and ‘being there where it’s at’. That last value refers to how in tune they are with the cultural zeitgeist. There are ways around the first value, but not the second and third. ------ noelwelsh It takes one look at a professional sports team to see that practice is not sufficient to reach the highest levels of ability. This is particularly pronounced in basketball. For example, compare the skill level between two very good players: Steph Curry (6'3") and Shaq (7'1"). Shaq at 6'3" would never have been a pro player. Steph at 7'1" would be the greatest player of all time. ~~~ lonelappde How do you know steph could have developed the same way it he were taller? ~~~ mc_blue Exactly! If Steph was 7'1", my bet is he would rely more on playing closer to the basket (like Shaq did) and would not have had a need to develop his 3-point shooting to the level that it is today. Also, how do we know that Shaq at 6'3" wouldn't have developed into a different style of pro player? ------ CJKerr For a much better treatment of the same general idea, read "Peak: Secrets from the New Science of Expertise" by K. Anders Ericsson. ------ seieste 1\. Deliberate practice is different than merely putting in hours. So 5,000 of difficult practice could build skills more than 10,000 of mindless repetition. 2\. "10,000 hours" is a necessary, not sufficient, condition. Further, some fields (like chess) can enable expert performance with fewer hours than other fields (like history) due to the difference in skills required. ~~~ rehasu The deliberate part is so often overlooked since most people only know training with a teacher, where they give the responsibility for the deliberate part to the teacher without even knowing. If you start learning by yourself from every 10 hours of practice maybe only 1-2 might count as deliberate. If that efficiency is tracked as well, one could argue that even a motivated learner might take up to 20k hours to get to his 10k hours of deliberate practice. ~~~ AstralStorm Interesting theory, but is it backed by anything other than supposition? Longitudinal, crossectional pilot studies at least? ~~~ rehasu I have the same google that you have (assuming that you don't live in a country with a "Secret Special Google" project). What you find feel free to share it here for others to read. :) ------ plaidfuji My karate instructor always said “perfect practice makes perfect”. Your teacher helps you define what “perfect” is, and it’s up to you to slow down or break up what you’re practicing in order to achieve that standard. ------ lawn I like "perfect practice makes perfect" and "practice makes permanent". It's why you often have to spend a lot of time unlearning bad practices before you can move forward to a higher level. ------ astura Seems obvious, I think we've all worked with that one person who's been writing software for 20 years and still sucks, making the same mistakes over and over again. ------ lonelappde Article is just a long-winded confusion of correlation vs causation. Nothing to see. ------ delidumrul But the perfectness always comes with the practicing.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Dad gets $22,000 data roaming 'shock' from Fido - rpledge http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2013/03/01/bc-rogers-roaming.html ====== aoprisan settled for $500, not bad.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Snapchat says flood of spam is not a result of its recent hack - eurleif http://venturebeat.com/2014/01/13/snapchat-spam/ ====== eurleif Does anyone else find this hard to believe? 4.8m SnapChat usernames were released. You can send someone a Snap if you know their username. Why _wouldn 't_ a flood of spam follow the release?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Apple is donating 1,000 watches for a new study to track binge eating - nopacience https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/14/apple-is-donating-1000-watches-for-a-new-study-to-track-binge-eating.html ====== Someone1234 People will hand wave this away as a publicity stunt, but frankly I'm fine with a publicity stunt that makes the world a better place. Tesla wants to donate water filters to Flint? Apple wants to donate watches to scientific research? Microsoft wants to give away patents to Linux? Heck yeah! That's one outstanding use of a marketing budget if I've ever seen one. The world is improved and your business gets good PR. Win/win. Please keep this going other companies! ~~~ brlewis I feel the same way about the win/win nature of it. And my employer competes with Apple Watch.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Python 101 cheat sheet: a quick reference document for newcomers to the language - TriinT http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/l-cheatsheet3.html ====== johnnybgoode Just FYI, this is from February 2000.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Show HN: Copiny – Getting closer to the Customers via an online community - dchistov http://copiny.com/ ====== dchistov Ni HN! A few years ago I had a problem - how to became closer to my customers. I asked myself what tools I could use for solving that problem? Traditional forums are not user friendly and very complex. Feedback form much better, but its not about longtime relationships with customers. So as most of you I decided to make my own solution and today I would like to share it with you. Copiny.com is a customer community platform that allows companies to have a dialogue with their customers on the site. By using our platform, companies reduce support cost up to 20% and get x15 times more customer feedback. For example, Evernote uses our platform in Russia for customer service and, according to them, Russian Evernote community is one of the most effective in the the World because they have reduced support cost by 40%. It's possible because our platform has some features and mechanics that differ us from traditional forums, FAQs and others. I hope you like it. ------ dang Promotional votes and comments are not allowed on Hacker News. ------ ProductHunter Is it competitor of "User Voice"??? ~~~ dchistov Not really, Copiny is more similar to GetSatisfaction. UserVoice has a feedback form and a help desk, but it hasn't a powerful community functionality. ------ kalash47 Great tool to build LoveBrand! )	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
JavaScript changes for Facebook’s OAuth 2.0 upgrade - nfriedly http://blog.sociablelabs.com/2011/09/16/javascript-changes-facebook-pauth-2-0-upgrade/ ====== nfriedly There is a followup post that covers the server-side here: [http://blog.sociablelabs.com/2011/09/19/server-side- changes-...](http://blog.sociablelabs.com/2011/09/19/server-side-changes- facebook-oauth-2-0-upgrade/) ------ nfriedly FYI, while all of Facebook's SDKs already support OAuth 2.0, starting on October 1st they will _only_ support OAuth 2.0 - anything that depends on the older authentication system will break.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
“CPUs are optimized for video games” - zx2c4 https://moderncrypto.org/mail-archive/noise/2016/000699.html ====== sapphireblue This may be an unpopular opinion, but I find it completely fine and reasonable that CPUs are optimized for games and weakly optimized for crypto, because games are what people want. Sometimes I can't help but wonder how the world where there is no need to spend endless billions on "cybersecurity", "infosec" would look like. Perhaps these billions would be used to create more value for the people. I find it insane that so much money and manpower is spent on scrambling the data to "secure" it from vandal-ish script kiddies (sometimes hired by governments), there is definitely something unhealthy about it. ~~~ camelNotation People spend a lot of money on physical security as well. They put locks on their homes and cars, install safes in banks, drive money around in armored cars, hire armed guards for events, and pay for a police force in every municipality. The simple fact is that if your money is easy to get, someone will eventually take it without your permission. That is reality, but calling it "unhealthy" implies that the current state of things is somehow wrong. I agree with that premise, but it carries with it a lot of philosophical implications. ~~~ ythl > That is reality, but calling it "unhealthy" implies that the current state > of things is somehow wrong. I don't spend a lot of money on physical security. I leave my car and front door unlocked usually, and don't bother with security systems. If you find yourself having to lock and bolt everything under the sun lest it get damaged/stolen, then yes, I think it is an indication that the current state of things is wrong. There is something wrong with the economy/community/etc. in your area. I realize that "the internet" doesn't really have boundaries like physical communities do, but I too wish for a world where security was not an endless abyss sucking money into it and requiring security updates until the end of time. In other words - a world where you could leave the front door unlocked online without having to worry about malicious actors. It will never happen, of course (at least not until the Second Coming ;) ~~~ ajmurmann Wow, what country do you live I that you feel comfortable keeping you door and car unlocked? I've lived I the US and Germany and wouldn't have felt comfortable doing that in either place. ~~~ dtparr Countries are not granular enough to use for this sort of thing. I've lived in several places in the US where unlocked doors were the norm, and then in several places where it would be a bad idea if you want to keep your things. ------ pcwalton Games are also representative of the apps that actually squeeze the performance out of CPUs. When you look at most desktop apps and Web servers, you see enormous wastes of CPU cycles. This is because development velocity, ease of development, and language ecosystems (Ruby on Rails, node.js, PHP, etc.) take priority over using the hardware efficiently in those domains. I don't think this is necessarily a huge problem; however, it does mean that CPU vendors are disincentivized to optimize for e.g. your startup's Ruby on Rails app, since the problem (if there is one) is that Ruby isn't using the functionality that already exists, not that the hardware doesn't have the right functionality available. ~~~ nostrademons Interestingly, the one thing that typical web frameworks _do_ do very frequently is copy, concatenate, and compare strings. And savvy platform developers will optimize that heavily. I remember poking around in Google's codebase and finding replacements for memcmp/memcpy/STL + string utilities that were all nicely vectorized, comparing/copying the bulk of the string with SIMD instructions and then using a Duff's Device-like technique to handle the residual. (Written by Jeff Dean, go figure.) No idea whether mainstream platforms like Ruby or Python do this...it wouldn't surprise me if there's relatively low hanging fruit for speeding up almost every webapp on the planet. ~~~ MichaelGG Why is this even a thing? Copying and the like is such a common operation. Why don't chip providers offer a single instruction that gets decoded to the absolute fastest way the chip can do? That'd even allow them to, maybe, do some behind-the-scenes optimization, bypassing caches or something. It's painful that such a common operation needs highly specialized code. I know you can just REP an operation but apparently CPUs don't optimize this the same way. This is too obvious an issue, so there must be a solid reason. What is it? ~~~ Tloewald This seems like something that compilers should do and CPU instruction sets should not. ~~~ MichaelGG Why? It's a common op that requires internal knowledge of every microarchitecture, isn't it? Seems like something that should be totally offloaded to the CPU so you're guaranteed best performance. ~~~ anjc The message you were referring to was talking about code for copying strings. If you wanted an instruction to copy lots of strings, the CPU would need to know what a character is (which could be 7 bits, 8 bits, 16 or 32), what a string is, how it's terminated, what ascii and unicode is, be able to allow new character encoding standards etc etc. Then you would need other instructions for other high level datatypes. That's not what CPUs do, because you're limited by how much more logic/latency you can add to an architecture, how many distinct instructions you can implement with the bits available per instruction, how many addressing modes you want etc. So instead, this information/knowledge about high level data types is encapsulated by standard libraries and then the compiler below that. Most CPUs have single instructions to copy a chunk of data from somewhere to somewhere else and a nice basic way to repeat this process efficiently, and it's up to the compiler to use this. ------ speeder As a gamedev I found that... weird. A CPU for games would have very fast cores, larger cache, faster (less latency) branch prediction, fast apu and double floating point. Few games care about multicore, many "rules" are completely serial, and more cores doesn't help. Also, gigantic simd is nice, but most games never use it, unless it is ancient, because compatibility with old machines is important to have wide market. And again, many cpu demanding games are running serial algorithms with serial data, matrix are usually only essential to stuff that the gpu is doing anyway. To me, cpus are instead are optimized for intel biggest clients (server and office machines) ~~~ SolarNet I disagree. As a gamedev writing game logic you are right. But as an engine programmer, I agree with the linked author. I'll take your points one at a time. Most engines are multi-core, but we do different things on each core (and this is where Intel's hyper-threading, where portions are shared between the virtual cores, for cheaper than entire new cores, is a solid win). Typically a game will have at least a game logic thread (what you are used to programming on) and a "system" thread which is responsible for getting input out of the OS and pushing the rendering commands to the card along with some other things. Then we typically have a pool of threads (n - 1; n is the number logical core of the machine; -2 for the two main threads, +1 to saturate) which pull work off of an asynchronous task list: load files from disk, wait for servers to get back to us, render UI, path-finding, AI decisions, physics and rendering optimization/pre-processing, etc. AAA game studios will use up to 4 core threads by carefully orchestrating data between physics, networking, game logic, systems, and rendering tasks (e.g. thread A may do some networking (33%), and then do rendering (66%), thread B might do scene traversal (66%), and then input (33%), see the 33% overlap?), they also do this to better optimize for consoles. But then they have better control of their game devs and can break game logic into different sections to be better parallelized, where as consumer game engines have to maintain the single thread perception. SIMD is used everywhere, physics uses it, rendering uses it, UI drawing can use it, AI algorithms can use it. Many engines (your physics or rendering library included) will compile the same function 3 or 4 different ways so that we can use the latest available on load. It's not great for game logic because it's expensive to load into and out of, but for some key stuff it's amazing for performance. That stuff the GPU is doing eats up a whole core or more of CPU time. So what if we are generally running serial algorithms, we need to run 6 different serial algorithms at once, that's what the general purpose CPUs were built for. This is all the stuff you don't often have to deal with coddled by your game engine. The same way that webdevs don't have to worry about how the web browser is optimizing their web pages. ~~~ yoklov Glad somebody wrote this. I agree 100% (well... probably more like 90% -- but mostly nits that aren't worth getting into). ~~~ SolarNet To be fair I'm more of a hobbyist - who writes game-engine-esque code (I never said what kind of engine programmer I am did I) for my day job (pays better) - that just builds game engines for fun (like the last 10 years now... but no games). So some details are likely wrong, I'm kinda super curious as to your nits. ~~~ daemin Sounds like what I did for the past 10 years before joining the gamedev world about 3 years ago. It is cool to work on your own tech and to learn a lot of different things, but it's also scary how much can get done with a whole team working at it. ------ Narann The real quote would have been: > Do CPU designers spend area on niche operations such as _binary-field_ > multiplication? Sometimes, yes, but not much area. Given how CPUs are > actually used, CPU designers see vastly more benefit to spending area on, > e.g., vectorized floating-point multipliers. So, CPUs are not "optimized for video games", they are optimized for "vectorized floating-point multipliers". Something video game (and many others) benefits from. ~~~ nemothekid Why are they optimized for vectorized floating-point multipliers? Does the CEO of Intel just tell all the engineers to do this because he likes multiplication? ~~~ daveguy They are optimized for that because a lot of algorithms can make use of them, from quicksort/mergesort through image rendering and encryption. It is an easy optimization from a hardware perspective -- simple repetitive hardware structure. This is why GPUs are so powerful and games are not the only thing that benefits from this type of optimization. Matrix multiplication is also used in signal processing. The CEO asked, how can we optimize the use of our hardware for the most benefit? And SIMD with wide pipes is at the top of the list. Most of the post is about all the new algorithms that can take advantage of the hardware push. The hardware push is there because it is an easy use of hardware resources. This is also an optimization that compilers can readily take advantage of on a small scale (similar to pipelining) so the combination of benefit + ability to use + simplicity/low resource use makes it an inevitability. ~~~ mcguire A sort that uses vectorized floating point multiplication? ~~~ sbierwagen From 2008: [http://www.vldb.org/pvldb/1/1454171.pdf](http://www.vldb.org/pvldb/1/1454171.pdf) Also: [http://researcher.watson.ibm.com/researcher/files/jp- INOUEHR...](http://researcher.watson.ibm.com/researcher/files/jp- INOUEHRS/PACT2007-SIMDsort.pdf) and [https://github.com/NumScale/boost.simd](https://github.com/NumScale/boost.simd) ------ joseraul TL;DR To please the gaming market, CPUs develop large SIMD operations. ChaCha uses SIMD so it gets faster. AES needs array lookups (for its S-Box) and gets stuck. ------ wmf Maybe a better headline would be something like "How software crypto can be as fast as hardware crypto". I was curious about this after the WireGuard announcement so thanks to DJB for the explanation. ------ nitwit005 Not really. Just look through the feature lists of some newer processors: AES encryption support: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AES_instruction_set](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AES_instruction_set) Hardware video encoding/decoding support (I presume for phones): [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Quick_Sync_Video](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Quick_Sync_Video) It's more that it's relatively easy to make some instruction useful to a variety of video game problems, but difficult to do the same for encryption or compression. You tend to end up with hardware support for specific standards. ~~~ apendleton Did you read the post? This is specifically addressed. The AES hardware support requires a bunch of die area specifically for that purpose and still isn't that performant. Smaller-area CPUs don't spend the area and perform abysmally on AES, and even in CPUs that do include AES-NI, Chacha achieves comparable performance for the same security margin without any custom hardware support, just using the general vector instructions added to improve game performance. DJB expects that because vector math continues to improve while AES hardware does not, Chacha will soon outperform AES even on devices with hardware support. ~~~ nitwit005 Thank you for pointlessly regurgitating much of his post? The fact that Intel put an encryption feature in their chip, which does indeed make that algorithm faster, would tend to indicate they wanted faster encryption wouldn't it? That some other algorithm could be faster still isn't really contradicting that. ~~~ brohee I'd wager that the goal wasn't so much speed (which is very rarely the issue) but security. It was way too hard to program a constant time AES implementation without AES-NI. ------ magila One important aspect DJB ignores is power efficiency. ChaCha achieves its high speed by using the CPU's vector units, which consume huge amounts of power when running at peak load. Dedicated AES-GCM hardware can achieve the same performance at a fraction of the power consumption, which is an important consideration for both mobile and datacenter applications. Gamers generally don't care about power consumption. When you've spent $1000 on the hardware an extra dollar or two on your electricity bill is no big deal. ~~~ acqq > CPU's vector units consume huge amounts of power when running at peak load. > Dedicated AES-GCM hardware can achieve the same performance at a fraction of > the power consumption Citation needed. Where did you get that idea? Please show how djb's vector code spends more power vs the built-in AES "dedicated hardware" instruction when, as he measures: "* Both ciphers are ~1.7 cycles/byte on Westmere (introduced 2010). * Both ciphers are ~1.5 cycles/byte on Ivy Bridge (introduced 2012). * Both ciphers are ~0.8 cycles/byte on Skylake (introduced 2015)." "even though AES-192 has "hardware support", a smaller key, a smaller block size, and smaller data limits" (his code is 256 bits and 12 rounds). ~~~ wmf AVX is so hot that Intel CPUs may have to clock down ~200 MHz when executing heavy AVX code to stay within their power/thermal limits. I have no idea if this hits DJB's code in reality. [http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/...](http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/white- papers/performance-xeon-e5-v3-advanced-vector-extensions-paper.pdf) ~~~ acqq Thanks for the link, I can only find "when the processor detect AVX instruction additional voltage is applied, the processor can run hotter which can require the frequency to be reduced" but I don't see anywhere mentioned that the base frequency is 200 MHz. If you mean 200 MHz lower than TDP marked frequency, but processing twice as much data, it doesn't sound so bad, it's still 1.7 times more power efficient than the shorter instructions spending twice as much time at the marked TDP frequency. And I'd be surprised that AES is magically not needing serious processing too. Otherwise it would be already implemented to be much faster than it is now. ~~~ honkhonkpants It really depends on your instruction mix. If only one in twenty instruction uses AVX, the rest of your instructions are running slower due to the lower clock and they aren't getting double the throughput. On top of that it could be some other thread using AVX, clocking down the entire core and harming the given thread that isn't using AVX. Intel has done a lot of things to try to balance this. One of those things is they don't even bother turning half the vector unit on unless you use it a lot. If you seldom issue an op with 512-bit operands, the CPU will actually dispatch them as multiple 256-bit operations, in which case you won't incur the drop in clock, but you also don't get the supposed benefit of double throughput. Furthermore the performance may be much worse if the CPU decides to turn up the remaining vector bits, because the clock drops dramatically while those units are charging up. So you can see that for someone trying to wring out every last bit of performance on a recent Intel CPU using all the advertised vector capabilities, optimization can become quite complicated. ------ revelation I thought modern video games are predominantly limited by GPU performance? Maybe the argument is that while usually CPU performance isn't the most important part of the equation, video _gamers_ base their purchasing decision on misguided benchmarks that expose it. The big CPU hog and prime candidates for these vector operations nowadays seems to be video encoding. ~~~ skykooler It depends on the game. Physics-heavy games for example, like Kerbal Space Program or Besiege, are usually CPU-limited. ~~~ revelation Those are both built with Unity though, right? Where the game is basically C#. Are the actual physics even done vectorized? ~~~ dogma1138 No part of a Unity game runs in a .NET VM or any other VM. They chose C# as the scripting language because C# is one of the most popular programming languages, it's extremely popular in the non-game dev development community, and it's probably the only non-Web language that most code academies teach for traditional development maybe other than Java. It's syntax is also pretty close to C and C++ which means developers with game dev background will feel at home as most game development is done in C++. Unreal Engine uses Unreal Script which is now pretty much C++ but it is also not compiled directly (although with Unreal Engine 4 and onwards it's much closer to direct compile than any other scripting language). Unity engine has it's own interpreter which then builds highly optimized C++ code and compiles it when you build the game. Unity Engine is a pretty decent engine with kickass performance when optimized, without fine optimization any general purpose engine including Unreal 4 acts like utter crap. I'm alpha/beta testing a few UE4 games atm and you can see just how bad performance can get even on a solid defacto industry standard like UE4 like when dynamic shadows tank a GTX Titan X (Maxwell) SLI setup to below 20 fps any time there are light sources that are not properly fenced and culled - e.g. explosions. ~~~ KON_Air Your last paragraph ticks me off so much about the current non-sequetor "industry standard". Most recent example I can give is that doesn't really care is EDF 4.1. It takes carpet bombing an entire city to make its FPS dip with hundreds if not thousands of gaint incest gibs (and four players) being flung across the map. Do they really need a bazillion shaders and dynamic shadows on everything? ~~~ dogma1138 Unreal Engine is an industry standard when it comes to commercial general purpose engines. There are more unreal engine titles for any given version than any other engine on the market on PC's and consoles. On mobile unity is probably bigger atm. ------ joaomacp Of course. Gamers are the biggest consumers of new, top of the line PC hardware. ~~~ vonmoltke I doubt gamers are outspending datacenters and owners of private clusters. ~~~ firethief Server hardware is mostly a separate market from PC hardware, since there are different things to optimize for. ~~~ dbenhur Yet Intel sells essentially the same microarchitecture to both ~~~ vegabook ...at enormously different price/flop, basically because it restricts RAM size and disables ECC in the Core chips. It's why we need AMD's Zen to be competitive again, so that this price gouging ends. Same for Tesla/Geforce at Nvidia. ------ milesf And because CPUs are optimized for both gamers and Windows, the world has access to lots of cheap, powerful hardware. I'm not a Microsoft fan, but I'm very appreciative to them for making this ecosystem possible. In fact, games have always driven the modern computer industry. Even Unix started because of a game ([http://www.unix.org/what_is_unix/history_timeline.html](http://www.unix.org/what_is_unix/history_timeline.html)). ------ rdtsc Wonder how a POWER8 CPU would handle it or if it is optimized differently. It obviously is not geared for the gaming market. ~~~ gtirloni Not sure about Power8 as I wasn't able to find anything conclusive. But if you believe Oracle's marketing efforts, the SPARC chips do much better than Power8 and Intel on that front. [https://blogs.oracle.com/BestPerf/entry/20151025_aes_t7_2](https://blogs.oracle.com/BestPerf/entry/20151025_aes_t7_2) ~~~ Symmetry SPARC chips are much more optimized for a certain intended set of workloads than x86 or POWER are so that's not surprising. ------ stephenr Isn't this exactly why HSM's exist - to provide optimised hardware crypto functionality? Honestly I would treat this the same as eg Ethernet - high end cards have hardware offload capabilities that the software stack can utilise to get better performance. ------ tgarma1234 I really find it hard to believe that people for whom such an interest in security at the CPU level would buy "retail" processors like you and me have access to. I am no expert in the field but it just seems weird that there isn't a market for and producer of specialized processors that are more militarized or something. Why does everyone have access to the same Intel chips? I doubt that's actually the case. Am I wrong? ~~~ pcwalton > I really find it hard to believe that people for whom such an interest in > security at the CPU level would buy "retail" processors like you and me have > access to. DJB's interest here is specifically in creating algorithms that work well on general-purpose popular CPUs. ------ Philipp__ ARMA III could be the good example of CPU bottleneck. Or maybe it is badly optimized... Then we hit the hot topic of multicore vs singlecore performance. ~~~ ohstopitu with the latest update, ARMA III seems to have a massive FPS boost. So it was definitely not optimized earlier. ~~~ swampthinker I seem to perpetualy hear that with ARMA games. ------ wangchow The form-factor for laptop screens are built for media consumption, even though the square form-factor is superior for productivity (I found an old Sony Vaio and the screen form-factor felt very pleasant). Seems the general consumption of media has dominated CPU design _in addition to_ everything else in our computers. ~~~ digi_owl Well the wider screen format allows for a keyboard with a numpad now, without getting a massive "lip" below the keyboard. ------ rphlx Perhaps that was true in the mid 90s, but today Intel optimizes x86_64 for its highest margin core business: server/datacenter workloads. Any resulting benefit to desktop PC gaming is appreciated, but it's a side effect rather than a primary design goal. ------ wscott No, Intel CPUs are optimized to simulate CPUs Some stories from back around 2000 when designing CPUs at Intel. Some people did bemoan the fact the few software actually needed the performance in the processors we were building. One of the benchmarks where the performance is actually needed was ripping DVDs. That lead to the unofficial saying "The future of CPU performance is in copyright infringement." (Not seriously, mind you) However, here is a case where the CPUs were actually modified to improve one certain program. From: [https://www.cs.rice.edu/~vardi/comp607/bentley.pdf](https://www.cs.rice.edu/~vardi/comp607/bentley.pdf) (section 2.3) "We ran these simulation models on either interactive workstations or compute servers – initially, these were legacy IBM RS6Ks running AIX, but over the course of the project we transitioned to using mostly Pentium® III based systems running Linux. The full-chip model ran at speeds ranging from 05-0.6 Hz on the oldest RS6K machines to 3-5 Hz on the Pentium® III based systems (we have recently started to deploy Pentium® 4 based systems into our computing pool and are seeing full-chip SRTL model simulation speeds of around 15 Hz on these machines)" You can see that the P6-based processors (PIII) were a lot faster than the RS6K's and the Wmt version (P4) was faster still? That program is csim and it is a program that does a really dumb translation of the SRTL model of the chip (think verilog) to C code that then gets compiled with GCC. (the Intel compiler choked) That code was huge and it had loops with 2M basic blocks. It totally didn't fit in any instruction cache for processors. Most processors assume they are running from the instruction cache and stall when reading from memory. Since running csim is one of the testcases we used when evaluating performance the frontend was designed to execute directly from memory. The frontend would pipeline cacheline fetches from memory which the decoders would unpack in parallel. It could execute at the memory read bandwidth. This was improved more on Wmt. This behavior probably helps some other read programs now, but at the time this was the only case we saw where it really mattered. The end of the section is unrelated but fun: "By tapeout we were averaging 5-6 billion cycles per week and had accumulated over 200 billion (to be precise, 2.384 * 1011) SRTL simulation cycles of all types. This may sound like a lot, but to put it into perspective, it is roughly equivalent to 2 minutes on a single 1 GHz CPU!" Games were important but at the time most of the performance came from the graphics card. In recent years Intel has improved the on-chip graphics and offloaded some of the 3d work to the processor using these vector extensions. That is to reclaim the money going to the graphic card companies. ------ xenadu02 tl;dr: AES uses branches and is not optimized for vectorization. Other (newer) algorithms are designed with branchless vectorization in mind, which makes specialized hardware instructions unnecessary. ------ Philipp__ And what if games are better (or worse) optimised for certain type of hardware? So that way, you spend on new Intel CPU every 3 years. So the point is, what if some games are badly optimisied and run bad on certain hardware on purpose. Maybe it sounds like a conspiracy theory. But look, CPUs are stalling, Intel wants to sell it's things every year, what if they come to developers and say "Look make your game run 10% better on our latest hardware and we give you money"? ~~~ lagadu [citation needed] ------ DINKDINK Off-topic: That's a great favicon	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Creating a startup in the U.S. - amrithk I am currently working with 2 friends on an online venture. Each of us have jobs and we only work on our project in the weekends and some week-nights if we can get home before 10pm. We dream about pursuing our project full-time and we have thought a lot about applying to YC and other similar programs.<p>The problem is that two of us are not American citizens or permanent residents. We require visas to remain here legally. We would like to stay and work together but this is not possible without a visa. At the same time, we really don't see our project getting anywhere unless we pursue it full-time. I was wondering if anyone else has/had this problem when creating their venture. Are there ways to get around it so we can apply to programs like YC? ====== omakase This thread might be useful if you are looking into getting a visa. My co- founder and I are looking at these options right now: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=115590> <http://ycombinator.com/faq.html> << also, you only need to be able to come to the US for the 3 months to be able to participate in YC. so my advice is apply and begin looking at your visa options. if you get in and have your visa already sorted out by the time you get to the states I imagine it will make it easier when you look to raise more money, stick around, etc. ------ nikiscevak One idea: Create two companies, a US company and a company in your local country. You local country affiliate can pay your salary and the US company can pay the foreign company like a vendor. After a year or so, you will be eligible to get a company L-1 transfer visa. Or if you don't plan on paying yourself through the company in the first year or so, try to get a visa at another company (perhaps you are consulting for a small number of hours per week?). You wont be an employee of your startup, but you will be the owner. ------ amrithk That sounds like a good idea. I am already working at another company on a H1-B visa and run my venture just as aside. To really pursue this full-time, one route I am thinking is to apply to business-school and work on my venture through that. That way, I'll get to work on my venture, have better chances of meeting bright people I can work with, have better access to funding opportunities and also gain a 1 year provision through an F-1 visa that I can use to build a startup. Does that seem like a good idea? ------ prakash Move to your country of origin or other common countries where you & your founders don't need a visa and start a startup from there. If you move from the US to a country where the currency is weaker, the same dollar will really stretch. I spoke to the RedSwoosh guys who had moved to Thailand for 6 months and it worked out well for them: [http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB119179859820351...](http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB119179859820351674.html) ~~~ amrithk The problem is we are all from different countries. If I move to the country of my origin, my team-mates will need a visa to move to that country. Of course, its much easier to work from different parts of the world but not sure how advisable that is for a startup when many people need to work face to face. ------ amrithk Thanks for the advice.... I don't think I want to go the sham marriage route :-)Perhaps the best thing would be to consult an immigration lawyer. Just wanted to know if anyone has had similar experiences to mine as to attend a program like YC, everything is predicated on being able to remain in the country. ------ davidw You might google site:news.ycombinator.com , because you guys aren't the first nor the last to have this problem. ~~~ attack So the conclusion is to either not do it for years or make a sham marriage. I have no idea how someone could be unsatisfied by this previous advice:) It really does seem to be a rather mysterious process if you're this far out of the norm though. I'm sure every additional datapoint will help. ~~~ ojbyrne That's because it is a mysterious process -- so much of it seems to be at the discretion of the USCIS examiner. I think the best advice is to consult an immigration lawyer. Not only because they know about the law (which I find is actually pretty hit and miss) but having a letter from a lawyer included in your application gives you a little more legitimacy. ~~~ gruseom My observation is that an immigration lawyer adds a _lot_ more legitimacy. This suggests the hypothesis that US immigration is, de facto, a two-tier system: those who can afford the right lawyer are on an unofficial fast track. This is a de facto and not a de jure distinction because it would be politically unacceptable. This hypothesis has the advantage of explaining the system's byzantine complexity, which often seems irrational: it's a membrane. The upper tier of candidates (those with lawyers) are able to penetrate the membrane more readily than the lower tier. ------ kuldeep_kap Thanks for this good thread and our team could run into the same problem. We would like to know, if its pivotal for any startup to start from US to gain a good success? ------ ecarder You wrote "about applying to YC and other similar programs" do you know any other firms which do the same what YC does? If so, please post some info! thanks! ~~~ matthewer <http://www.launchboxdigital.com/> \- based out of DC. Pretty new. Saw them present @ tech meetup in NYC. ~~~ ecarder Thank you! i'll check it out!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Wikipedia Browser for TRS-80 Model I - pskisf http://pski.net/trswiki/ ====== beat Oh, lawd! I learned to program on TRS-80 Model I and Model III back in high school. Writing animations in BASIC by sort of bitmapping with extended ASCII characters. The most useful thing I learned was my first security hack. Floppies (all we had) could be password-protected. The teacher's disks (with the video games) were password-protected so we couldn't copy or alter them. So put in your disk. Enter "current password". Replace it with teacher's disk. Enter "new password"... ------ Multiplayer This actually makes me miss those days. At that time it was possible to know EVERYTHING that was happening in micro computing. There was some comfort in that I think. Fun. ~~~ jacquesm That's right at the core of where I'm somewhat frustrated with modern computing. There are days when I feel like an ant walking on a map with no idea of the size of the map nor any overview of what is on it. Limiting the scope of what you're seeing is no longer a luxury, it has become a necessity to get any work done but this tendency to want to understand everything is hard to get rid of and a huge time-sink. Couple that with the speed with which formats, protocols and technologies are obsoleted and you end up with an even more frustrating situation. I suspect the next level of major real progress will come from simplification or a total reboot. ~~~ golergka That would be true in any big software project, and in any complicated system. Regardless of how many reboots will there be, systems that are simple enough for an ordinary developer to fully comprehend can not complete the tasks we want from them. ------ userbinator I wonder if this could evolve into a more general web-browser... given that there's several(!) available for the C64 already, like this one: [https://www.c64-wiki.de/index.php/Singular_Browser](https://www.c64-wiki.de/index.php/Singular_Browser) (German) ------ fit2rule I'm in the middle of doing something similar for the Oric-1/Atmos machines, which recently gained newly designed hardware giving them gigabytes upon gigabytes of storage.. so .. what to do with it? Easy: put Wikipedia on it! ------ gadders Anyone got a Dragon 32 they could try this on? :-) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_32/64](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_32/64) ~~~ qbrass CoCos and Dragons were completely different than the original TRS-80; the CoCo only carried the TRS-80 badge for it's brand recognition. Even amongst actual TRS-80's, the Model I is only partly compatible with the Model III and Model 4. ------ Zardoz84 The ZX Spectrum also, have a Twitter client : [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ECnN7jdgA4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ECnN7jdgA4)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Best shoes for sysadmins? - lich-li ====== bradknowles Comfortable ones?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Microsoft Takes Legal Action Against Barnes & Noble over Android - ldayley http://www.microsoft.com/Presspass/press/2011/mar11/03-21CorpNewsPR.mspx ====== possibilistic Patents are disgusting as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't matter the industry. I'm in biotech, and despite the tedious work involved in the process of investigative research--despite the sometimes massive materials and labor cost --patents do not make any sense. In the end, the products of molecular cloning can be distributed essentially just like software. It's just information. You should not be able to corner off and control information space. If I want to work in a given area according to my interest, I should not have to pay royalties or join an exclusive research team. ~~~ potatolicious There's at least a _potential_ defense of patents in traditional industries. When something takes tens of millions of dollars of research to create, there's _some_ case to be made for limited-term exclusivity. But when it comes to something like UI, which someone hacked up over the course of a few hours... does this justify exclusivity for years? Patents were created to balance the harmful effect of exclusivity and monopoly with the cost of creating innovation. In software the cost of creating innovation is practically free in comparison to traditional industries, and IMHO the scope of protection needs to be proportionate. ~~~ TillE Developing a new drug costs about $1 billion on average, from initial research to final testing and regulatory approval. A temporary monopoly of several years seems entirely appropriate, even necessary if you expect private industry to be involved in pharmaceutical research. ~~~ ZeroGravitas Or so they keep telling us anyway: _Does the pharmaceutical industry exaggerate their R &D costs? _ [http://www.boingboing.net/2011/03/21/does-the- pharmaceuti.ht...](http://www.boingboing.net/2011/03/21/does-the- pharmaceuti.html) ~~~ Locke1689 From the first comment on that article: _I never post here, but after seeing this, I just had to. The Light article is very biased and disingenuous - they have an agenda that's obvious from the tone of their text. For a realistic rebuttal, check out:[http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2011/03/07/the_costs_of...](http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2011/03/07/the_costs_of_drug_research_beginning_a_rebuttal.php) [http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2011/03/08/that_43_mill...](http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2011/03/08/that_43_million_rd_figure.php) There are many other realistic, balanced rebuttals to the Light article out there as well. I've worked in the the biotech and drug industry (10 years) and am currently an academic. I've been on both sides of the fence and have a realistic perspective on how much it costs and how tough it is to discover and develop new medicines. The Light/Warburton figure is WAY off._ ~~~ ZeroGravitas Note his rebuttal is mostly addressed to their own suggested $43 million figure, rather than disputing that the original $1+ billion figure is correct, as he seems to agree with the part of the paper discussing the problems with that number. There's an couple of orders of magnitude between the estimates, so it's entirely possible for both to be _WAY off_. ------ potatolicious Dammit Microsoft, just as I was starting to feel sympathetic towards the underdog smartphone player, you pull something like this. ~~~ bad_user Not their first time - Motorola and HTC were the first ones. They tried branding themselves as the underdog with Bing too; but somehow I have trouble picturing them as the underdog. You can do business with them, you can buy their products, but they don't deserve sympathy. No company does actually; you should treat them just as they treat you. ~~~ barista Here's a more comprehensive infographic of who is sueing who. [http://www.mobilemarketingwatch.com/infographic-whos- suing-w...](http://www.mobilemarketingwatch.com/infographic-whos-suing-who-in- mobile-10120/) Nothing to feel sympathetic for anybody. They are all in the business to make money. ~~~ zmmmmm There's one thing I will point out on that diagram: there are no arrows emerging from Google. Not that we should feel sympathy for them, and perhaps it might just be that they don't have enough of a portfolio, but I think it's worth noting all the same. ~~~ Lewisham That most probably means one of two things: 1\. Google hasn't got any relevant patents (unlikely) 2\. Google has a number of defensive patents in other things, and have threatened to countersue anyone who comes after them (like Sun before Oracle), which explains the cowards going after the smaller manufacturers instead. ~~~ CountSessine Google actually has very few patents. Which makes sense. You own and generate a lot of patents if 1\. You're interested in shaking-down others (IBM comes to mind) 2\. You've written a big cheque to someone who shook you down and now you're trying to defend yourself. #1 certainly doesn't apply to Google - not yet at least. And I don't think that Google has been badly burned in a patent dispute with anyone yet, so it doesn't look like they've made generating defensive lawsuits a big priority yet. One source on the web from a couple of years ago says that Google's name appears on only about 190 patents in total. I did a search and was able to find ~600 patents with Google as the assignee. The same search yielded ~3700 patents for Apple, ~17000 for Microsoft, and ~64000 for IBM. Apparently Apple was issued more than 700 patents in 2010 alone, versus Google's 282. For the last few years, this is how many patents some of these companies have been issued: #2010: _Apple 722_ Google 282 _Microsoft 3305_ Foxconn/honhai 1885 #2009: _Apple 399_ Google 143 _Microsoft 3160_ Foxconn/honhai 1310 #2008: _Apple 254_ Google 60 _Microsoft 2310_ Foxconn/honhai 1005 #2007: _Apple 157_ Google 35 _Microsoft 1958_ Foxconn/honhai 673 #2006: _Apple 133_ Google 22 _Microsoft 1614_ Foxconn/honhai 653 #1999-2005 _Apple 843_ Google 14 _Microsoft 3643_ Foxconn/honhai 3262 Searching through some of these patents is really discouraging. I remember that when Apple brought their suit against HTC (really, against Android and Google), there were a lot of armchair lawyers here on HN and elsewhere claiming just how obvious some of the patents that Apple was weilding were. At the time I actually believed that some of them had merit. But looking through some of these patents, especially some of the Foxconn ones, is there anyone who really believes that the front bezel design for a PC case (<http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/D512721.html>) or the particulars of a generic USB stick (<http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/D537819.html>) should be patentable? Some of the stuff that I've been looking at over the last hour makes Apple's and Microsoft's patents look like Bell's patent on the telephone. ~~~ kahirsch The patents that start with "D" are design patents, not utility patents. I don't really know how big a problem they are. It seems like it would be pretty easy to avoid them if you knew about them, although how you would know about them all I have no idea. ~~~ tesseract My understanding is that a design patent is really only any good against a near-exact copy of the design. ------ forgotAgain The hypocrisy of Microsoft is really a turn-off. Microsoft statement on this new action against Barnes and Noble: _Their refusals to take licenses leave us no choice but to bring legal action to defend our innovations and fulfill our responsibility to our customers, partners, and shareholders to safeguard the billions of dollars we invest each year to bring great software products and services to market?_ Then there is their statement regarding their appeal of the $290 millions dollar judgement against MS for infringing on i4I. _This case can be summed up in one world – balance,” Microsoft’s David Howard, corporate vice president and deputy general counsel for litigation, said in a statement. “The current approach taken by the Court of Appeals improperly tilts the scales to reward invalid patents. That approach needs to be corrected in favor of a system that ensures the process for obtaining and defending patents is clear, reasonable and doesn’t unduly burden the system or innovation._ ~~~ tzs What hypocrisy? The two quotes you give do not show any sign of hypocrisy. Microsoft's position is that software should be patentable, but that the standard for obtaining software patents is off and the courts are not doing a good job dealing with them. Both of the quotes you give are consistent with this view. ~~~ forgotAgain In the first instance they are wrapping themselves in the righteousness of their claims which are at best questionable. In the second they are lamenting how wrong it is that a company has to defend itself against spurious claims. ~~~ tzs The mens rea for hypocrisy is that the alleged hypocrant believes one thing and is acting in a way inconsistent with that belief. They may be _wrong_ about their belief, but that is irrelevant. You assert that Microsoft's claims are questionable. Assuming that is so for the sake of argument (I have not looked at the patents so cannot say), I see no reason to believe that _Microsoft_ thinks their claims are questionable. In your first case, they likely believe that they have valid patents which they are asserting against an infringer. In your second, they believe that invalid patents are being asserted against them. There is simply nothing hypocritical here. EDIT: had the word "patentable" in the second paragraph where it should have said "questionable". ~~~ forgotAgain If we were in a court of law then I would agree with you but since we are not in a court of law I will hold to a different definition of hypocritical: applying a criticism to others that one does not apply to oneself. ------ magicalist patents: [http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=deQCAAAAEBAJ&dq=5...](http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=deQCAAAAEBAJ&dq=5778372) [http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=JvQAAAAAEBAJ&dq=5...](http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=JvQAAAAAEBAJ&dq=5889522) [http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=DwEJAAAAEBAJ&dq=6...](http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=DwEJAAAAEBAJ&dq=6339780) [http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=oKgVAAAAEBAJ&dq=6...](http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=oKgVAAAAEBAJ&dq=6891551) [http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=jJcVAAAAEBAJ&dq=6...](http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=jJcVAAAAEBAJ&dq=6957233) ~~~ mycroftiv I actually took the time to read those patents, and as broken as I thought the US patent system was, I didn't realize it was that bad. One of the patents is actually a patent on displaying a temporary loading animation when a browser is downloading rather than having a dedicated loading status indicator. Another patent is for displaying a document while the background image is downloading rather than waiting for the background image! ~~~ famousactress True story. I worked on Hewlett Packard's first digital camera project around '97 or so. We were getting ready to freeze the firmware when the final legal review turned up a patent that another company (don't remember who, wanna say Samsung?) had been granted. The patent covered menus on the back of a digital camera where the cursor moved across menu items when you pressed up and down. We were asked to scramble and make the menu move underneath a static cursor to avoid exposure. The best part was that the patent was granted sometime around 1980, if memory serves. ------ ChuckMcM Not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing. It presumably adds weight to consolidating Android patent litigation (Apple vs HTC, Oracle vs Google, Microsoft vs B&N, Etc.) On a related note, when I was first pitched on the idea of OpenMoko and 'Open Source Phones' in general, I responded that the existing infrastructure anti- bodies wouldn't take kindly to something like that existing. When Google went there with their psueudo-OSS (POSS) product, at least they have the capital to defend against spurious attacks. So the good news is that all around the table everyone has gone 'all in' (to use the poker vernacular). That suggests to me that this is the end of the beginning. My prediction is that we will have 6 to 10 years of litigation ahead (it is time limited by patent lifetimes in terms of starting new litigation beyond that time frame). At best, we'll get Google holding out to the end. That will result in a pretty definitive doctrine for creating an open source phone by 2020. At worst, these will collapse into an MPEG-LA or Public-Key-Partners scenario creating a leech like entity that bleeds the public dry, enriches the players, while allowing them to side step direct blame. (such a settlement would most likely 'require' that nobody portion of the fees paid back to the rights holders be public) Nothing particularly disruptive on the horizon unfortunately. I keep hoping for a 'wifi' smart phone that uses a network built with the white-space bands in the US. Of course they would keep a low profile, given the nature of their threat, but they would also have to raise probably 200 - 300 M$ to deploy and haven't seen that either. The pessimist in me thinks there will be a run on Vaseline. ------ cbo This reminds me of Ballmer's claims that Linux infringes on Microsoft patents. They ultimately resulted in nothing, I see this heading in the same direction. It seems more like a scare tactic than anything else. If they really wanted to go after Android, Google or Samsung would probably be included. Instead, they're going after some lower profile (though still very recognizable) manufacturers. To me that says they want publicity, not necessarily legal results. ~~~ bradleyland I'm afraid not. This is something else entirely. Microsoft is rapidly losing their relevance and they're fighting to find a way forward. Something I wrote back in October when the Microsoft/Acacia patent licensing news hit. "Microsoft has identified patents as the most effective attack against anyone seeking to profit from FOSS. Rather than attack FOSS directly, you dump as much money as you can in to littering the intellectual property space for a given product with patent mines. Step on a patent mine and all of the sudden you’re paying Microsoft (or someone else) for sitting on their ass and building a patent portfolio rather than innovating with any real products." [http://www.bradlanders.com/2010/10/08/the-new-patent- troll-e...](http://www.bradlanders.com/2010/10/08/the-new-patent-troll- economy/) ------ guelo As a software engineer I pledge to never work for or in any other way assist the following companies as long as they continue their anti-competitive abuse of software patents that is harming our industry and the future of mobile computing: Microsoft, Oracle, Apple, Kodak, RIM. Will other devs pledge with me? ~~~ clavalle This is a fine idea. I think, along the same lines as a talent revolt, an organization wherein developers can pool a monthly fee to push our interests as an industry that thrives on actual innovation might be in order. Say $30-$50 a month/dev or other interested individuals to go to funding a 'Patent Defense Fund' for members, building and maintaining a prior art database, and buying useful patents for the use as the little guy's nuclear deterrent. ~~~ nitrogen Does the Open Invention Network accept donations, or companies without many patents to contribute to the pool? ~~~ clavalle I don't know. The Open Invention Network is Linux centric so it is not really what I was referring to above which would be more of a cross-industry entity. ------ famousactress Ugggh. Since the idea behind patents is to promote innovation, and not prevent it.. why can't that be a measure evaluated in the process of granting or enforcing the patent? Microsoft should have to provide a compelling argument for how much money went into the 'research' around these UI paradigms, how without that investment these ideas would have never come about, how allowing them time to recoup that investment is better for the world than allowing other entities to copy the work. In short, we're all collectively allowing these companies to file and enforce these patents ... we should expect them to prove to us that they're worthy. ~~~ Peaker Or maybe just try disallowing patents altogether for a couple of decades to see how that works out? ~~~ famousactress Don't get me wrong.. I'm as cynical as the next guy about the patent system.. but I do think the merits of the lucid arguments for it ought to be considered in a re-think. If you're spending loads of money on research to make an idea possible, and that idea is easily copied in a way that undercuts your ability to profit.. then I guess I get that. I just think you ought to have to _prove_ it. Effectively, this would come pretty close to eliminating software patents altogether... but presumably wouldn't hurt the abilities of biotech, pharma, medical devices and the like where (I assume) the research dollars are often very real. ------ tzs Mobile is getting too complicated. At last count that I saw: Apple: suing 2, being sued by 3 Toshiba: being sued by 1 Sony-Ericsson: being sued by 1 Sharp: being sued by 3 Samsung: being sued by 2 RIM: suing 2 Qualcomm: suing 1, being sued by 1 Oracle: suing 1 Nokia: suing 8, being sued by 2 Motorola: being sued by 3 Microsoft: suing 3 B&N: being sued by 1 LG: being sued by 2 Kodak: suing 5 HTC: being sued be 2 Hitachi: being sued by 1 Google: being sued by 1 Elan: suing 1 ~~~ hendler This is older, but the visual is impressive: [http://www.technewsdaily.com/smartphone-companies-in-a- vicio...](http://www.technewsdaily.com/smartphone-companies-in-a-vicious- cycle-of-suing-and-countersuing--1403/) ~~~ bitwize Whoa. Looks like the Watson ball. ------ ig1 How is this even legal in the US? - in the UK you can only sue the producer of violating product and not the distributer, and even threatening a distributer without having first won a court case against the producer is illegal (to stop companies strong-arming distributers with patent threats regardless of the validity of the patents which the distributer can't reasonably expected to be knowledgable about). It seems in this case the lawsuit is against functionality in Android and B&N are merely the distributer. ------ ams6110 Microsoft claims that the patents infringed include "natural ways of interacting with devices." I checked my thesaurus and alternative words for _natural_ include: normal, ordinary, everyday, usual, regular, common, commonplace, typical, routine, standard, established, customary, accustomed, habitual. I thought patents were supposed to be issued only for "novel" innovations? ------ eschulte There's no point being angry with Microsoft as, like any company, their stated goal is to make money. Anger should be directed at the US patent system which creates an environment in which businesses must act this way -- not an entirely fair statement given that companies like Microsoft no doubt influence patent legislation, and do so generally for the worse. If this bothers you don't rage against companies for playing the game, donate to the EFF <https://www.eff.org/> or call your elected representatives. ------ mrspandex [http://blogs.technet.com/b/microsoft_on_the_issues/archive/2...](http://blogs.technet.com/b/microsoft_on_the_issues/archive/2011/03/21/android- patent-infringement-licensing-is-the-solution.aspx) has some more details ~~~ marshray It amazes me that anyone really believes that stuff. I posted this comment there, don't know if it'll show up: If Microsoft truly had "innovated" all this great smartphone user experience, why is it that nobody seems to want a phone with a Microsoft OS? But the really stupid thing is that Microsoft is far more vulnerable to patent litigation than anyone else at this point. Barnes & Noble can survive a judge's order blocking sales of Nook a lot longer than Microsoft can survive a shutdown of Windows or Office. The obvious conclusion is that Microsoft itself doesn't believe it can innovate in a fair market competition. Like stars, the end state for large technology companies is a black hole of litigation and patent trolling. ------ rdl I think if Microsoft wanted to declare "developer friendliness", they would unilaterally declare that they won't engage in offensive patent actions, and encourage all other companies to do the same. Or, just make it entirely opt- in; they promise not to sue anyone who won't sue them. I suspect it would cost them not much more than their current startup outreach efforts, and would build a lot more goodwill. ------ megamark16 If you can't fight 'em, sue 'em. When will the software patent insanity end? ~~~ marshray When it's someone other than lawyers writing the law. ~~~ podperson I think if we have someone other than lawyers writing laws things will get worse, not better. The patent system has serious problems, so does Microsoft Windows. Do you think Windows would be better if it weren't developed by software engineers? <http://www.ladas.com/Patents/USPatentHistory.html> ~~~ joebadmo Your analogy doesn't really hold, because software engineers probably use the software they create, so they have an incentive to make it good. Lawyers have an incentive to make laws such that you need more lawyers, which the patent system succeeds at marvellously. That's not to say that there's really an alternative, just pointing out the perverse incentive structure. ~~~ woodson Sorry, but that doesn't make sense. Equally, one could make the case that software engineers have an incentive to make bad/incomplete/burdensome software so that they are still needed to provide fixes/updates. Lawyers also "use" the law, it still applies to them. The patent situation won't change, as the players involved are too keen of their portfolios. ~~~ joebadmo I think the perverse incentive you point to wrt software is a real one. I think that's why the tools that engineers use are usually the best pieces of software. I don't think patent lawyers are generally have to use patent law in the same way that software engineers have to use software. ~~~ marshray Of course they don't allow the patenting of processes essential to patent lawyering so the analogy doesn't hold. But my point was that the patent system really is "used" by lawyers and they do, in fact, optimize it for their purposes (e.g., extracting wealth from others who actually produce things of value). ------ mrspeaker Is there a reason for the "Click Here to Install Silverlight" link at the top of the page? Is there a video or something on this page about the legal action, or is it just a friendly suggestion? ~~~ protomyth Seems to be a standard Microsoft home site thing. ~~~ rbanffy That's the only way someone will install this thing, after all... No other site will do that. ~~~ unp3rs0n netflix ~~~ rbanffy I'd rather not use Netflix. ~~~ Locke1689 And we all know that the web habits of the majority of broadband internet users is primarily based on rbanffy. ~~~ rbanffy I can't speak for the majority of broadband users. I can only say I'd rather not use Netflix than install Silverlight. I have lived just fine without it anyway and chances are my TV can do it on its own without Silverlight. ~~~ Locke1689 You claim that no other site would give a reason to install Silverlight. Someone mentions Netflix, a popular website which depends on Silverlight being installed. You then say that you would prefer not using Netflix to installing Silverlight. Your comment then becomes 1) A non sequitur. Your own choice has no bearing on the last two comments except to voice your own feelings about silverlight. 2) A suggestion that your own feelings for Silverlight reflect the vast majority of broadband Internet users, directly contradicting all available data. I chose the most charitable interpretation of your comment, as option 1) is clearly off-topic and not relevant to the thread or the article. ~~~ rbanffy > Your own choice has no bearing on the last two comments except to voice your > own feelings about silverlight. You got that partly right. I have no need for Silverlight. > A suggestion that your own feelings for Silverlight reflect the vast > majority of broadband Internet users Maybe you are reading too much in my comment. Anyway, Silverlight adoption is low, pointing out few people feel the need to install it. ------ moondowner If you can't lead the wave, ride on it. ~~~ rbanffy Or crash it so nobody rides it. ------ nkassis Anyone has a list of the patents in question? It seems like if the description is right, it has something to do with the UI. I was expecting something like the usual patent suit over the FAT filesystem used on SDCards or something like that. This is more serious. ------ wynand I hope an American lawyer can answer this (or at least someone with a good knowledge of the US legal system). What can an individual (even one outside of the US) do to effect change in the software patent landscape? Who needs to made aware of the problems in the patent system? How can these people be reached? What will it take to get them to introduce changes that reduce the number of these lawsuits? Is there anyone running a website dedicated to 1) cataloguing obvious ideas to act as prior art, 2) collecting cases for use in lawsuits involving software patents, 3) systematizing steps for how individuals can make a change? ------ etherael Does there exist some organisation which acts as an umbrella treaty against patent abuse. For example a centralised pool of patents held by all member companies in the organisation is used as a deterrent against patent abuse, in the event that any member of the organisation is attacked with a patent, all other members attack the aggressor with their patents? Patents seem to be enough of a thorn in the side of business that it would be beneficial for at least a significant amount of businesses to participate in such an organisation. If this does not exist, why not? ~~~ robrenaud If you don't want to build anything, it doesn't matter. Patent trolls are basically ghosts with guns. There is nothing to really shoot at to kill. You can potentially take their gun away by invalidating their patents, they have no big downside risk. There is no profitable software development portion of the company that you can blow up. ~~~ etherael Except in this particular instance, and in many other instances, it's not just pure patent trolls doing the abuse. Microsoft (and many of the other players in this war) does actually have a profitable software development portion of the company that could be blown up. ------ devmach That's why you never build your business in US... ~~~ marshray It really doesn't matter. If you want to sell products into the US or the industrialized world in general, you are put at risk by the patent system. ~~~ devmach Sure... But as i see, the patent system in US is a mess. That can make my business fragile : I develop some app and then some troll sues me, so now instead investing in innovation , i have to invest my lawyer ! Maybe you have to do more paperworks in other Countries (ex. Germany) but your business is not in danger because bad use of patents. Sure other countries have also patent trolls but the system is not bad and currupt as US. ~~~ marshray What I'm saying is that being based somewhere other than the US does not make you immune to the effect of US patents. Even if you refuse to sell your product into the US market (good luck), as in this case, your customers can be sued in the US. ------ rch Does anyone make generic mobile hardware yet? The concept seems to have paid off for personal computing. ~~~ CountSessine How feasible is this? To have interchangeable and commoditized component smartphones? Probably not feasible at all I would think. The desktop pc gives up a lot of performance and simplicity for compatibility and modularity. But the constraints that they're designed within are pretty simple - maximize performance and minimize price, and try not to pull any more than 15 amps out of the wall. Smartphones need to optimize for CPU performance, component price, power draw, component size, rf stability, and then they still need to have an attractive design to appeal to fickle phone customers. I don't know how much leeway they would have to establish a uniform hardware design to minimize os and driver customization that would be necessary for an installable-os platform. ~~~ rch I disagree. There are some interesting multi-core SoC parts hitting the market, ARM is 'in', the move to solid state storage is effectively complete, and multi-touch screens provide a rich interface without the bulk of keyboards and pointing devices. Go back and look at the OQO, but swap in modern hardware and VM tech. Include 802.11 if it is cheap and efficient enough, but provide a slot for drop-in 4g, bluetooth, DRM (the Nook/Kindle plug... probably not an iPod but maybe a Zune plug), etc. --note that having only one 'net' slot pressures providers to bundle content, allow subscribers to extend connectivity plans to cover a content device... it gets complicated but it both creates a product quality incentive and provides opportunities for providers to profit by differentiation. Build in something like Xen and plan on syncing the user disk image to the network, and run expensive processes on external devices (or AWS) when available. Dock to your laptop to build the presentation; deliver it from your this thing. Dock the thing to any TV and play a movie, without having to move the content from one device to another. etc. etc. etc. I fully expect these to be commodity parts made by the likes of Dell or HP inside of 8-12 years. ~~~ CountSessine _I fully expect these to be commodity parts made by the likes of Dell or HP inside of 8-12 years._ Setting aside the fact that neither Dell nor HP actually make any of the parts inside their _PCs_ now, I think there are too many separate issues that you're bringing up here. Clarifying, 1\. Will netbooks (you mentioned the OQO) be built on modular, user-swappable hardware components. 2\. Will smartphones be built on modular, user-swappable hardware components (you said, " _802.11 if it is cheap and efficient enough, but provide a slot for drop-in 4g, bluetooth, DRM_ ") 3\. Will smartphones be build according to a fixed hardware/software HAL that is well specified enough that no OS or driver customization is needed and user-installable and substitutable OS's are possible. #1 is possible IMHO. A few years ago ASUS was selling a customizable laptop platform that small computer stores could build and sell as their own brand. It was big and bulky and went away quickly, which is always going to be a problem with modular hardware, so I don't see this as ever being very popular. But someone might try it again with netbooks. #2 is just never going to happen. Forget about it. if you _provide a slot for drop-in 4g, bluetooth, DRM_ , someone else is going to build a competing smartphone with all of that built in but without the bulky connector and housing. It'll be smaller and sexier than your monster-smartphone, and it'll probably have better battery life with the extra internal room for a larger battery. Modularity is irrelevant when you can just include everything that's cutting-edge at the moment and you'll just get a new smartphone in a couple of years under a new contract anyways. #3 might happen, but I still doubt it. It goes back to what I said about constraints and room for innovation. When something big needs to change with the PC HAL (like USB3), Intel, Microsoft, Dell, and a bunch of others have to get together and formulate something like XHCI to provide a common hardware interface - otherwise every USB3 chip would require a separate loadable driver. In the embedded market and with smartphones, there's no constraint on the hardware interface - you just throw the chip in and then add a kernel driver for it. Time saved, competitive advantage gained. How much longer would it have taken for NFC to be included in smartphones if Samsung, HTC, Google, Apple, Microsoft, Nokia, and others had to get together and hash out a common hardware interface for NFC chips the way PC manufacturers do with stuff like UHCI/EHCI/AHCI/etc? A lot longer. And given that no one expects user-installable and substitutable OSs on smartphones, there's no incentive now or in the future to provide one. And given that a smartphone platform that provides a common HAL is going to be at a competitive disadvantage wrt smartphones with custom hardware, there's no thin end to this wedge. ~~~ rch First, thanks for the nice response. "Setting aside the fact that neither Dell nor HP actually make any of the parts inside their PCs now" I was referring to the whole device as a 'part', and don't really expect Dell or HP take over from Broadcom, TI, and so on. Anyone that sells a tablet could sell this. 1: Hopefully not. Ideally, hardware should perform well for the lifetime of the device, without having to swap out any of the internals. I gave up screwdrivers a few years ago. 2: I don't think I said smartphones... but you could use the slot to turn whatever it is into a phone, if you really need it. Personally, I will use something akin to Google voice or Skype over 802.11, but mobile data connections are fine. It needn't be bulky either -- the smaller express card form factor was nice, for instance. 3: Can you run your OS on Xen, etc.? Then everything will be fine. A good prototype device would run an AMI directly from your AWS account... a killer device would be able to expose exotic integrated hardware features when available, but it would be up to an OS to deal with it. Now, that's obviously more difficult, but not as difficult it was ten years ago. Point taken on the NFC example. In my world though, people only need to agree at the VM level. ------ JonoW I normally defend Microsoft, but then they pull crap like this. This lawsuit dance is ridiculous. ------ ck2 All they really want to do is make Android devices cost more so their fee for software on their own hardware will look competitive. Interesting how they aren't suing Google directly? ------ FlorianMueller I have listed the patents in my blog post on this: [http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/03/microsoft-sues- barne...](http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/03/microsoft-sues-barnes-noble- foxconn-and.html) 1 of them was previously also asserted against Motorola. 4 of them weren't. Since Microsoft already has 23 patents in suit against Motorola, Barnes & Noble will know that the 5 patents asserted today are but a small selection of Microsoft patents allegedly infringed by Android. ~~~ bodski _If Barnes & Noble refused to pay (which is what Microsoft says), it's actually a matter of fairness that Microsoft enforces its patents because otherwise those who respect Microsoft's rights would be at a competitive disadvantage versus non-paying infringers._ Jeez Florian, you have come a long way since your campaign against software patents. A few days ago you blow up the Bionic GPL issue as if it was an unprecedented tactic used by Google (and were soundly rebutted on LWN by the way ;) and now this. Have you received funding from Microsoft at any point, perchance? ~~~ ZeroGravitas Does it actually make sense to talk about "respecting" "rights" granted to you by a patent before it has been proved in a court of law? There's clearly some disagreement about what "rights" they have or there wouldn't be lawsuits happening to establish exactly what they are. ------ forkrulassail Does anyone see a gap here for a PatentWar app that runs on Android? ~~~ forkrulassail Similar to drug wars but no drugs, just pools of patents :) ------ svlla they already reached a settlement with Amazon last year. MS is going to get their way with B&N too. ~~~ rbanffy Sadly, it only enables them to troll even more.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
To this day I have trouble starting a sentence with anything other than "maybe". - sp332 http://blog.eisele.net/2012/02/heroes-of-java-ward-cunningham.html ====== bkirwi The title quote hits home for me today -- reading through my sent mails, I kept wincing when I made some confident assertion that ended up being totally off-base. It sucks to be the one appending IMOs to every sentence (especially in the startup scene, with its focus on brilliance / cojones / whatever), but otherwise you're just wasting people's time. ------ lucian1900 Other people think I'm being evasive because I have a hard time giving answers in absolute terms. I know how it feels.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies - tysone https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/20/us/data-privacy-fbi.html ====== jenvalentino Hi. I'm the reporter on this story. Thanks for discussing it! I thought it might be helpful for me to make a couple points. First, national security letters have been around, AND controversial, for years now. A number of tech companies have fought the gag orders. The news here is really that we are seeing for the first time which other specific companies get a lot of these — especially banks, credit agencies and so forth, which have all been silent on the subject. Second, @hammock is correct to say that these are not approved by a judge. Nor are they grand jury subpoenas. They are administrative subpoenas, but unlike other administrative subpoenas, almost all of these come with stringent, long- term gag orders. So, they're a pretty special type of subpoena, not one with which everyone is familiar. Thanks again for reading. ~~~ drewmol Fwiw, it was the PATRIOT Act, passed shortly after the events of 9/11/2001, that allows for these administrative subpoenas and gag orders and removed any effective judicial oversight. Many of those provisions in the act were set to expire and those expirations were extended by both president Bush and Obama. IIRC the AG or their subordinates have to notify the judiciary of these subpoenas but can issue a gag order along with the disclosure effectively removing any judicial oversight. ~~~ jdc A little more background on administrative subpoenas: We Don't Need No Stinking Warrant: The Disturbing, Unchecked Rise of the Administrative Subpoena ([https://www.wired.com/2012/08/administrative- subpoenas](https://www.wired.com/2012/08/administrative-subpoenas)) ------ situational87 We can't keep pretending this is still a Democracy when we have a completely unaccountable NSA/CIA/FBI that seems to repeatedly hide their mistakes and the dubious legality of their sources & methods behind the classification and national security walls. ~~~ cronix It was very eye opening to me when I had a conversation with a family member who is retired CIA/NSA/Rand. Not a low level person. I was asking them about when President Clinton asked about the UFO's, and why the president was not told the answers he was seeking. Their reply: the presidency is not the highest security clearance and the president does not have a right to know everything. I wonder if that's what the founders had in mind when they formed our government. And what happens when those people disagree with whoever is in office? They control what the president knows, as they are the ones who brief him, and only what "they" think is appropriate. They decide. ~~~ dx87 Your family members were lying to you if they said that the president doesn't get to see whatever classified material they want. The president doesn't even have a security clearance like everyone else requires, they get to see whatever they want and can declassify anything they want. ~~~ DanielBMarkham Both of you are correct. Technically, the president can classify or de-classify anything they'd like to at any time. He is the sole and only person in charge of the branch of government responsible for this. Practically, over many years presidents have delegated this authority all over the place, and in such byzantine ways that most of the folks in compartmentalized projects wouldn't know that he had the authority -- and even if they did, they could just point to various laws and signing letters that make it less than clear how a president would go about declassifying anything. So yeah, in theory POTUS could take an afternoon off, walk down the street into a government building and declassify whatever he wants. That's why we fight so much over who gets the job: the illusion that these powers are present. In reality, however, if he could get the SS to allow him to take a walk (unlikely), he'd be stopped at the door of wherever he went (both by his own and that department's security services), and then the red tape nightmare would begin. By the time it was all over he'd be better off staying home and watching daytime TV. For what it's worth, and I hate using movies as historical examples, in the movie Nixon there was a great scene where Nixon went in the middle of the night to talk to protesting students. He wanted the war to end too, didn't they know that? It was contentious, but then one kid got it and said it aloud, something like "You don't have the power to stop it either, do you?" Nixon looked completely defeated at that moment. Seconds later he was dragged off by his security staff. Without getting into the veracity of that exchange, the gist of it is something we see confirmed over and over again in the historical record: large groups of administrators simply cannot be governed and instructed by one person, no matter what the documents technically look like. It's system itself that does the work and enforces the norms, whether it's General Electric or the NIS ------ mLuby A gag order can be reasonable: "give us what you have on user John Smith birthday 1/1/1950 but don't tell him anything" makes sense if you're, say, investigating a criminal ring John is part of. What is _unreasonable_ is that companies can't reveal they've been gagged, or what type of data they were compelled to reveal, even after the fact. Companies should be allowed to say "we have disclosed access logs, location history, searches, encrypted backups for 1-50 accounts in response to lawful request from law enforcement." And they should be able to disclose the letter after an investigation has closed (whether it resulted in legal action against the individual or not). ~~~ cameldrv Yes, a gag order can be reasonable. Wiretaps with warrants usually have them. IMO, there should be no gag order, and the subject of the subpoena should be required to be notified and allowed to challenge the subpoena if it is issued without a judge. Gag orders should be allowed, but only if signed off on by a judge, and only for a reasonable amount of time to complete an investigation. If the government gets your information, and decides not to bring charges, you should have the right to know about that at some point. ~~~ GhettoMaestro > If the government gets your information, and decides not to bring charges, > you should have the right to know about that at some point. Disagree. There are numerous cases where it takes multiple investigations to "get" a career criminal (think organized crime). If each batch of subpoenas or sealed warrants were exposed even when there is no charge this time, that gives said suspect a very nice opportunity to clean up loose ends. TLDR: If people know they are being actively looked at they will attempt to destroy/suppress/hide evidence. ~~~ kerkeslager > Disagree. There are numerous cases where it takes multiple investigations to > "get" a career criminal (think organized crime). If each batch of subpoenas > or sealed warrants were exposed even when there is no charge this time, that > gives said suspect a very nice opportunity to clean up loose ends. Subpoenas are only supposed to be issued if there's a reasonable belief that the subpoena will find evidence of criminal activity. In theory, subpoenas _should_ find evidence most of the time--if subpoenas frequently don't turn up evidence, then subpoenas are being issued without the proper burden of proof being met. For this reason I strongly disagree that we should build any policy around the idea that subpoenas won't turn up evidence of wrongdoing on a regular basis. This just encourages law enforcement to go on fishing expeditions, instead of doing proper, evidence-based police work. If law enforcement know the person will be notified of the subpoena after some time, then they'll be incentivized to only apply for subpoenas that are sensible and strategic, rather than applying for frivolous subpoenas that don't turn up anything. ~~~ GhettoMaestro I see your point. It opens a door for a lot of bullshit. Really, I suppose I am advocating less for secret subpoenas and more for secret warrants. If someone really has a reason to keep something concealed in the interest in justice, then they should have no problem with a Judge signing off on it, under seal of course. And if the secret warrant is a part of a series against a suspect, again I think a reasonable Judge could be convinced of the necessity of keeping the ongoing investigative activities concealed for the time being. ------ xfitm3 I spent a long time in the hosting industry, most of which was in early 00s. When the feds couldn't get a court to order to hand over data we simply sold the data to them. They paid, quite handsomely at times. ~~~ Accujack This is pretty telling of the present state of U.S. law... there's no law against this (even today). The existing laws that protect privacy and what can be done with information companies collect have _never_ been updated post computer revolution... the same generation that was in power before then is still in power, and they've never had any interest in changing that. The US government started failing a long time ago, and everyone in that generation is either part of the problem or unwilling to admit it IS a problem. ------ hammock NSLs are not subpoenas. They are "administrative subpoenas," the difference being that they are not issued by a court and have no review or oversight by any judge or court officer. They are about as much a subpoena, as the FISA "court" is a court of law. ~~~ Merrill >"In most instances, a subpoena can be issued and signed by an attorney on behalf of a court in which the attorney is authorized to practice law. If the subpoena is for a high-level government official (such as the Governor, or agency head), then it must be signed by an administrative law judge. In some cases, a non-lawyer may issue a subpoena if acting on his or her own behalf (known as pro se representation)." [https://litigation.findlaw.com/going-to-court/what-is-a- subp...](https://litigation.findlaw.com/going-to-court/what-is-a- subpoena.html) A judge's approval is not needed. The attorney (e.g. a prosecuting attorney) is the "court officer". ~~~ hammock You missed the point. Your citation refers to a traditional subpoena, which I was saying is distinct from these "subpoenas." NSLs are not issued by prosecuting attorneys. ~~~ Merrill >However, the most commonly used type of NSL can be issued directly by the FBI Director, an Assistant Director, and also by all FBI Special Agents in Charge, who are commanding officers stationed across the country at FBI field offices. [https://www.eff.org/issues/national-security- letters/faq#3](https://www.eff.org/issues/national-security-letters/faq#3) Most of these, and certainly the Director, are also attorneys. At least James Comey was. Plus they have FBI staff attorneys to consult with. Practically speaking, how does this differ from the local prosecutor issuing a subpoena? The local country prosecutor is essentially part of law enforcement and reports up to the AG in the executive branch of government. The local county prosecutor has dozens of detectives working for her. ------ Merrill Subpoenas have been used frequently for decades to request "records kept in the ordinary course of business". The only thing different in this case seems to be that there is a perpetual gag order. But if the local prosecutor subpoenas your phone records because you are being investigated for bribing an athletic coach at a university, I don't think the phone company will tell you about it. ~~~ sneak The major thing that is different is that no judge or court is involved - these are issued by the requesting organization directly with no oversight. ------ nullc The use of administrative subponeas with effectively limitless gags is very concerning, but I also feel that the attention is somewhat misplaced. The US government receives far more private data about people from companies selling it or simply giving it away, than they get via administrative subpoena. The practice of paying for requested data also makes companies complicit in these orders, when they are issued-- they're a revenue center. Without stronger laws barring the collection of data and providing stiff civil or even criminal penalties for disclosure (including to the government) the bulk of the situation will not be much improved. ------ olliej Seriously, we need to kill off this warrant workaround that the US gov has decided is valid. Almost every product you buy now ends up sending your data to some company, and the government has decided that means you have no expectation of privacy, which is clearly nonsense. ------ andrerm And don't forget FBI is the one pushing against encryption ~~~ inscionent The Justice Department as a whole has this agenda under Barr, not just FBI. ------ fulldecent2 I am surprised that more NSLs have not been leaked or "hacked". Just store the NSLs next to your user data so that when it gets stolen and published then your NSL is published as well. ------ sroussey I really got worried when I stopped getting these and other subpoenas from 3 letter agencies. I knew we had to beef up our server defenses. :/ ------ stjohnswarts I am the odd duck libertarian who believes we need a minimum income welfare safety net and health care as a right. However, I scoff at giving the government more power in the areas of surveillance and police power. I just do not understand people backing up the government in taking away civil rights and personal freedom in the name of "making us safer". Honestly we are far safer than even as recent as the 90s, let alone the 1890s. People will always find things to clutch their pearls over, and it's all relative. ------ no_opinions Based on what I read online in discussions and in the news, there's little nuance into the circumstances around the data retrieval: \- Is it related to someone stealing classified information, spying / or spy cell, or could be planning a terrorist attack? In that case, they may be more sophisticated, or the investigation shifts to preventing something from occurring in the future, or its a matter of trying to figure out what a cell of foreigners from Russia/etc. are trying to get. \- Is it something related to a drug investigation? If it's involving drugs, countries everywhere have roving wiretap abilities because druglords use burner phones, and like above, they go to great lengths to hide / mask what they're doing as if it's legitimate business. \- Is it related to any other criminal investigation? Police has more ability to intercept communications than civilians. There is a whole world _inside_ here of nuances. An example in USA is subpoena'ing email records where unopened email is treated as abandoned, they don't require a search warrant. Not that there's many cases prosecuted relying on abandoned email retrieved that'd be thrown out if the law changed :P \- Protect/regulation around data of medical (HIPAA in US, I think GDPR in EU), children (COPPA in US) \- Normal consumer privacy protections (GDPR in EU) Here's an example of Germany's constitution (Article 10 [Privacy of correspondence, posts and telecommunications] , [https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-en/chancellor/basic- law-...](https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-en/chancellor/basic-law-470510)): > (1) The privacy of correspondence, posts and telecommunications shall be > inviolable. But, then it says: > (2) Restrictions may be ordered only pursuant to a law. If the restriction > serves to protect the free democratic basic order or the existence or > security of the Federation or of a Land, the law may provide that the person > affected shall not be informed of the restriction and that recourse to the > courts shall be replaced by a review of the case by agencies and auxiliary > agencies appointed by the legislature. The above basically gets you what most countries have anyway, so maybe it wouldn't address the concerns people have. _If_ there was a constitutional check for privacy over the wire/data in the cloud it'd be upheld at the judicial level to check the executive / legislative branch. However, there'd still be mechanisms where the government can access data, one way or another. It'd probably end up having the phraseology around them narrowly tailored, there'd be less swept in when decisions are in a gray area. ~~~ wsy The citation from Germany's constitution is a bit misleading. In Germany, law enforcement warrants must be signed by a judge (in urgent cases, a prosecutor can sign them, and they have to be confirmed soon afterwards by a judge). There is an exception for communication interception by the intelligence services: those warrants must be confirmed by the G-10 committee which is organized like a court, but directly appointed by parliament. The main differences to the US system are strict separation between law enforcement and intelligence services, and direct oversight of the latter by the parliament.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
132-page internal memo shows how Samsung set out to copy the iPhone - ServerGeek http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/08/apple-samsung-patent-lawsuit-internal-report-copy-iphone ====== jseims What's annoying is this isn't the real issue. Of course Samsung felt threatened by the iPhone, and set out to copy the aspects of it they liked. That's how capitalism works. The real issue is what degree of protection should our legal system provide original innovators against those who want to copy their innovations. I think the guiding principle should be the least legal protection that would still leave enough incentive for the original innovation to be created. In the case of software, where there is little fixed investment cost and a competitive advantage to being "first to market", I have a hard time seeing the need for any legal protection. For example, could anyone seriously argue that Apple wouldn't, say, implement a "slide to unlock" mechanism on the iPhone if they couldn't patent that behavior? We really need an act of congress to rectify this situation. ~~~ unfamiliar I wouldn't argue that lack of legal protection for "slide to unlock" would stop them including it. But I would suggest that had they had absolutely no legal protection then there is a significant chance that the entire R&D project that became the iPhone wouldn't have happened. Why invest that much time and money, playing with prototypes and ideas that might never come to market, invest billions in production lines, software development and be the first in taking a bold leap into uncharted waters if you have no recourse when someone simply rips you off at the end of the day? ~~~ thurn Walk into a Walmart and you can find tons of knockoff products like "Honey Nut Oatie Os". The breakfast cereal industry doesn't appear to have collapsed, though. In fact, you can buy a generic brand version of almost _anything_. ------ sdm How is this about copying? This is a company taking a long hard look at how their product stacks up against the competition. It's called capitalism and competition. If you're not taking a hard look at how you compare to competitors then you're going to die. Notice development steps on each page point on how to improve their offering. ~~~ RandallBrown To me, what's damning is how similar EVERY SINGLE SCREEN looks to the iPhone. They also pretty much never point out that differences in their design are better than the iPhone. They only talk about how they need to make it _more_ like the iPhone. ~~~ TazeTSchnitzel But that's because this is an internal memo about improvements, not "how well does Samsung stack up against Apple"? ~~~ RandallBrown I don't think that the slides are proof that Samsung is GOING to copy Apple, it's proof that they did. ~~~ TazeTSchnitzel They aren't. It's proof Samsung saw Apple as a competitor and tried to fix obvious flaws when comparing interfaces. ------ LVB For me the most depressing part is that you have what I consider to be a pretty reasonable gap analysis with recommendations that has now become damning evidence showing bad behavior. This is unfortunate. I'd like all companies to profile their own products against others and own up to where they fall short and have plans to get better. If a company says, "Our phone gets only four hours on a charge but their's gets six, we should step it up", that's OK. But if they say, "The date display on the Calendar icon should match the current date on the phone", that's "slavishly copying". Side note: where did Apple get inspiration for their should a reel-to-reel recorder image in the new podcast app? Slide 121? Answer: I don't know but it shouldn't matter. ~~~ cube13 >But if they say, "The date display on the Calendar icon should match the current date on the phone", that's "slavishly copying". I don't think that's the case, if it's just showing the date on the icon. On the other hand, if the instruction is to "Show the date display on the Calendar icon _exactly like Apple's icon_ ," that's a different story. ------ laserDinosaur Wait, is this the same memo as <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4349519> ? If so, jesus, what a link bait title. ~~~ fishbacon It is a link bait title even if it isn't the same memo, the document in this article (linked several times on the front page already today) shows that Samsung was looking at the marked leader and trying to figure out what they did right that Samsung wasn't doing. ------ michaelbuckbee Setting aside any legal aspects of this, I found the document really interesting as a User Experience tutorial. ------ grecy It's a shame that every single screen simply talks about how they can make their products more like the iPhone. It would have been nice to see them trying to make their products better than the iPhone, but, alas, they are only trying to play "catch-up", not "exceed". ~~~ paranoiacblack I might argue that when you're that far behind, it isn't unreasonable to make the quarterly goal to "catch-up" and then finally to "exceed". These are not mutually exclusive goals, they are just situation relative. ~~~ grecy I agree. And we've seen time and time again, that just as everyone else "catches-up" to an Apple device, Apple go and release the next one that jumps them ahead again _, because they have that 1-2 year head start. _ Yeah, I know it has not always been the case, but I think it's pretty safe to say it was the case with the iPod for it's entire life, and it does happen with the iPhone/iPad/MBA/MBPr ~~~ Nerdfest I think it's Apple playing catch-up with Android for the past couple of years. The MPB is a big jump ahead for Apple with that screen though. ------ xmmx Some of these make it seem like the firm just wants an iphone clone. For example, #52: No menu for going back to the previous screen when watching a video. Isn't this a trait of the android OS? Hard button to go back, and it's universally like this for all apps. Adding a back button just for video would break the continuity. #56: Star to 'add to fav' should be replaced with a plus because users don't recognize what a star does. I'm pretty confident that people will understand what a star does in this context... ------ andy_herbert Pretty damning, I'm confident that all the mobile manufacturers do this against each other, why wouldn't they? It just sucks to be Samsung right now. ------ hypnocode Copyright laws in America are broken. That said, this kind of corporate innovation is pretty broken, too. The way I interpret this document is not "how can we make a great product?" but rather: "How can we emulate a great product?" Almost ironic, now that the iPhone app store is almost entirely comprised of mine craft rip offs. ------ vampirechicken Meanwhile, we basically nationalize Samsung's patents that are fundamental to mobile phone infrastucture... ~~~ mc32 Can't the same be said of many Moto tech and patents? ~~~ vampirechicken Maybe. I only know what I read on HN. My point is that the patent holder who invented the infrastructure should be enriched by their patent. but we have a gov't setting limits on how much they can charge to license their patent, somehow the design elements of the device are going to turn out to be worth more than the tech that enable the device to work. I'm saying (poorly) that I think that reason should dictate that if apple pays X per device for the tech that enable the device then samsung should pay Y < X if found to be infringing on round corners and colorful icons. I don't value the design that much more highly than the enabling tech. I was pretty satisfied with my old compact nokia phone - I had a midi of run to the hills as my ringtone. Life was good. ------ jstalin Everything is a remix: <http://www.everythingisaremix.info/watch-the-series/> ------ ams6110 Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: How do you stay uptodate with all the tech? - stormpat Im a webdev, doing websites and apps for my employer, and i have a hard time keeping up to date with even just a few technologies im using, i use twitter, read on HN and Reddit, but still it feels like im constantly missing imortant stuff.<p>Right now im learning AngularJS and Laravel, so i have a back and frontend framework to learn. Still theres tonns of other stuff im interested in.<p>So how do you my fellow devs stay up to date no matter what your intrests are? ====== zapshu I came across [http://uptodate.frontendrescue.org/](http://uptodate.frontendrescue.org/) few weeks ago, they give valuable advices and many resources to keep getting up to date. About web standards, frameworks and related tools, I recommend you to cast a glance on [http://webplatformdaily.org/](http://webplatformdaily.org/)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
New era of software (vs traditional) engineering proving tricky for Toyota - bendtheblock http://www.economist.com/science-technology/displaystory.cfm?story_id=15560827&fsrc=rss ====== rubyrescue This article does nothing to explain why software engineering is more tricky for toyota, other than saying that they're forced to release models faster (industry-wide problem), and a set of scare quotes around the word engineer when referring to software guys... I'm not in the states right now (and the economist is mostly, but not entirely, written in the UK, not sure about economist online) but my sense is that there is a lot of hype in the states, and now I assume the UK, about the Toyota problems without a lot of substance to the reporting about what the actual issues are. If anyone has found a good website/blog/mainstream article that explains the issues clearly, i'd love to read them. ~~~ rm-rf I didn't think that the article was saying that software engineering is more difficult for Toyota than it is for other care makers, but rather that software engineering doesn't bring with it the 60 years of QA knowledge and process that mechanical engineering has in the Japanese auto industry, and that the lessons of those 50 years that make mechanical engineering so well refined are not readily transferred over to software engineering. Having said that, I didn't think that Toyota's problems were strictly software related. ~~~ pzarecta That's funny since the Toyota Production System is the inspiration for today's Lean Development Practices. Apparently, someone else extended those 60 years of learning into software development but didn't tell Toyota about it. ------ nitrogen The article provided an interesting history of the Japanese auto industry, went into a fair level of detail on statistical control, then completely choked with a couple of lines of opinion on "software," as though it's an abstract substance that we can blame all our problems on (like witches, republicans, or Al Gore). It's like the author hit his or her word limit with all the history and didn't have time or space to coherently tie things together. The author should have done some research into software quality control techniques to complement the SQC/6sigma background, such as MISRA-C (the safer subset of C used in automotive systems) and unit testing. Another page of text and a bit less whining about the good old days of the metal bashers and this could be a decent article. P.S. Thank-you pg for creating HN. The comments on here are, without fail, better than anything on the sites referenced. The overall tone and intelligence of comments on a site are a reflection on a publication's average reader, and from the looks of this article, The Economist has nothing on Hacker News. ------ andrewcooke is that the whole article? it reads like an introduction - where's the main body that explains _why_ software is the problem? ------ yason I would take it as such that Toyota just happened to be the first to get hit by this. The others are no less vulnerable. As software propagates into the design of previously mechanical products, we'll get more of these. There must be lots of bugs in other car models and makes that could surface anytime. Avionics software does keep planes in air but if you applied the same level of rigor to making automotive software nobody could afford the cars. ------ pg And Sony. ------ chadmalik Call me a luddite but I really prefer driving a car with no software in between my foot and the parts that govern acceleration and deceleration. Just because you CAN use software for something doesn't mean you SHOULD use software for it.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
OverlayFS Proposed for the Linux 3.18 Kernel - akerl_ http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTc5OTc ====== luckydude Looks remarkably similar to what Sun had 25 years ago, something called TFS. I found the paper about it and converted it to pdf, you can get that here: [http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/papers/tfs.pdf](http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/papers/tfs.pdf)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Piracy Politics Fuel Internet Censorship - Uncle_Sam http://torrentfreak.com/piracy-politics-fuel-internet-censorship-hypocrisy-110505/ ====== bxr >Again, with COICA it seems that censorship is not really seen as a major roadblock for prominent politicians. In the US we just shuffle the actual act of the censorship to the private sector. Add in some cognitive dissonance to that layer of indirection and you can happily proclaim that your government doesn't censor.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
'Don't Vape. Don't Use Juul': Juul CEO Issues Stark Warning to Non-Smokers - x43b https://www.insider.com/juul-ceo-dont-vape-long-term-effects-unknown-2019-8 ====== gaspoweredcat not sure i agree with this: "Don't start using nicotine if you don't have a preexisting relationship with nicotine," why not? its been shown to be a very effective nootropic with little more side effects than caffeine, peoples chosen delivery methods (smoking, vaping etc) may be potentially harmful but the chemical itself is actually not that bad, a nicotine patch for example will do you little harm, it may even be beneficial. Smokers dont die from nicotine they die from everything else that comes with the nicotine this may seem nitpicky but i think its important to know the difference, as they say "the devil is in the details" example someone dies from taking "ecstasy" the chances that they died from the actual MDMA are pretty slim, its far more likely they took a pill with some unknown mix of chemicals which caused it. taking a correctly measured dose of pure MDMA is pretty safe for a healthy person things like that are what have demonized so many chemicals over the years and stunted research into using them for medical purposes, its only in very recent years this has started to change following the realisation/acceptance that the various component chemicals in cannabis have significant medical applications ------ ljw1001 so he pulled it off the shelves. The man is a hero for our times.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
High stakes if Apple e-books antitrust case goes to trial - apress http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/13/us-usa-apple-ebooks-idUSBRE91C0PN20130213 ====== apress Actually, the monetary stakes discussed ($200 million a year for a couple of years) are peanuts to Apple, not even a blip. The real battle is over their freedom to engage in these sorts of business dealings to enter new markets and beat down incumbents.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Zuckerberg admits fallibility over Gmail block - BlazingFrog http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/11/17/zuckerberg_on_google_api_spat/ ====== shib71 I can understand why he's equivocal. Facebook has pushed the social graph as far as it has by becoming the medium it manifests in - and in so doing has put itself in a culpable position. The people who use it can now blame Facebook for things that were once their own stupid fault. And through publicity and hype they have become the new privacy whipping boy. Any decision they make will be criticised. There is something to be said for artificially prolonging the debate in order to encourage a more organic consensus.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Bullying bosses negatively impact employee performance and behavior - EndXA https://www.pdx.edu/clas/news/bullying-bosses-negatively-impact-employee-performance-and-behavior-study-finds ====== finaliteration I just put in my notice at my current job (which I’ve only had for six months) due to an abusive boss. I’ve always been great at my job, received a lot of praise for my work, and generally felt motivated to give and do way more than was asked. Not at this job. My manager’s behavior and attitude totally dragged me down and I’ve been the least motivated I’ve ever been. I’ve been depressed and stressed and basically shut down at work. Because of that, I’m going back to an old job to work for a manager who was much more positive and supportive. The adage about employees leaving managers absolutely applies in this circumstance. ~~~ flashgordon Hey mate. Can you share some of the behaviours (while not giving away any personal details) as that would helpful for managers and employees in better identifying it and with it? ~~~ finaliteration Sure. Just a few things that stand out: \- Constant criticism and nitpicking. Essentially I feel like nothing I do is right and even the smallest mistakes get a private Teams message about how I shouldn’t have done X, and then any apology from me is basically met with “Ok” as a response rather than any sort of empathy. I don’t think I’ve ever felt like small mistakes in a new position were never allowed. \- Micromanaging and controlling. They referred to themselves as a “dictator” on more that one occasion and had a “my way or the highway” attitude. I was hired on at a senior level and essentially ended up with close to zero input on design choices, so basically I stopped giving my opinion because I knew it would always be met with being shut down. \- I also felt singled out and was essentially told not to socialize in our Teams channels. This cut me off from the team quite a bit and made me feel totally isolated. I’d also try to suggest things globally so that knowledge could be shared and discussed with everyone. Again, I’d get a follow up message on Teams about how I shouldn’t be doing that and any suggestions like that need to be discussed with the manager first. That’s just a few things. Overall, it’s just a feeling of not having any autonomy and any attempts to gain any being shut down. I want to say they maybe feel threatened, but I don’t like to jump to that conclusion. Maybe it’s not yelling and screaming, but it’s a more passive-aggressive type of abuse and toxicity that in some ways digs deeper because it’s not easy to pick up on immediately or as visible. ~~~ flashgordon Damn that is toxic! Thanks for sharing mate. Glad you are getting out. Hope you didn't have any Visa issues that would have made the stay unnecessarily longer. I know how stressful it is to stick at a job just because you need to. Hope your next role and manager are energizing and engaging! ~~~ finaliteration Thanks! Fortunately I don’t have any Visa issues to deal with. Could have been a nightmare otherwise. I put my notice in last week and they terminated me early today because they didn’t “have anything left for me to do” in the next few days, which I think is code for “I’m pissed you’re leaving so I’m going to make it look like I’m in control”. ------ Panino > abusive supervision, which is becoming increasingly common in workplaces, > said Liu-Qin Yang, the study's co-author That abuse is _increasing_ might be less obvious than the conclusion in the article link text. Good to have data on both of course. My wife currently works for a place with a new senior director, a malevolently toxic psychopath. Her direct supervisor's hair has gone from brown to grey in only a couple months, and from conversation it sounds like yearly employee turnover has increased from maybe 10% to around 90%. This is impacting my wife's health and happiness, so I'm encouraging her not to give customary 2 weeks notice after getting a new job. I think the circumstances warrant it. As an aside, Wim Hof Method breathing has made an _incredible_ difference for both of us and I feel so fortunate to have come across it during this challenging time. It makes stress management so much easier, while the nice things are so much brighter and more joyful. ~~~ ams6110 Assuming you're in the US, and not under a contract that says otherwise, a two-week (or any) notice is entirely a courtesy. And if you're not being treated courteously at work, I don't see a good reason to be one-way about it. ~~~ pm90 I do see a reason: even if the boss may be abusive, not giving sufficient notice would flag you down with HR so they may not ever hire you again. Maybe not so important for smaller firms, but if this is a place she would like to work again, might make things a little more hairy. ~~~ lovich If you're quitting over bullying, _and_ you are concerned that HR would flag you as unhireable for pointing that out to them, why would you care to work there again? You may be burning bridges but those bridges didn't take you anywhere you wanted to go anyway. ~~~ z3t4 If one exec makes 90% of the people quit it will not take long until that exec is fired or they have to close down. ------ erentz What is a workable solution to this problem? How does a company prevent it? In the US if you're working under a bully, you can't really call them out because they'll punish you, you can't go to HR because they'll defend the bully and you'll be poisoned now in the eyes of other managers. You can't go to your skip level, because they're permitting the behavior, and if they're not then (too often) you'll be the lone voice saying this as everyone else is afraid and just wants to keep their jobs. So the skip level just assumes you're the problem. And so on. ~~~ JustSomeNobody You keep a file with all the bullying (dates, emails, anyone else in the room, etc). Collect all that then plan your exit. During your exit interview explain the bullying and give them a copy of the file. Be polite and professional. You’ll be burning bridges, but you don’t wanna go back. ~~~ moomin Let’s be frank, quite often not only do HR know, they’ve been actively protecting these people for years. ~~~ JustSomeNobody I realize that. What they may not know is how many people have left directly because of that bad manager. ------ expertentipp Pity that it takes research to state the obvious. Pity that unless specific well defined behaviour is explicitly penalized, bullies will continue with it - with poker face and shrugging on any attempt to call out their abusive practices. ------ kram8 Who would need a study to state the obvious? In which Universe is a bullying boss help a company? The only example that comes to my mind is when a corporation wants to reduce workforce but doesn’t want to pay severance pay. But this puts people’s health at risk and who in his right mind could want this? I’m working for a SaaS company who takes very much care of its employees and I’m asking myself if I am just naive... ~~~ sgillen Even if something seems obvious to you it’s still best to verify it rigorously. From a cynical point of view a bullying boss might be able to extract more working hours out of employees, or get them to upsell products at places like Best Buy. ~~~ noir_lord Absolutely, 'What everyone knows' has been so frequently wrong throughout history, a few people get ill and suddenly that harmless old lady who lives alone outside the village is on the bonfire... Humans are _terrible_ at attributing cause and effect without a rigourous way of reproducing it. ------ bitL What would you do if you had an abusive boss in a dream workplace like Google/FB or even higher rated companies like Lightbend/JetBrains and your boss & HR teamed up on you? (Purely hypothetically/asking for a friend) Would you even have any desire to continue in tech if the "world's best company" gaslighted you and tried to destroy you? Is there any known way for an institution to detect and remove abusers given victims are afraid to talk (rightly so)? What if something really dark resurfaced from your favorite director's past? Cover it up and pretend it didn't happen? ~~~ AlexTWithBeard Big companies like Google usually have internal mobility programs which, in my experience, work pretty well. ~~~ bitL Do you know more about it? I am building a company and want to avoid the "kiss up" effect when I only get heavily filtered/biased info from subordinates that are afraid of being presented in bad light, and team up together to "adjust" facts, discarding innocent people in the process. ~~~ AlexTWithBeard Alas I don't know the internals of it, I'm as far from the HR department as it can be. But here's what I've noticed: \- regular performance feedback, not only from the bosses, but from the peers as well. First, it gives you a good understanding of internal connections and relations. Second, it makes much harder for some bad mid-level boss to say "this guy has always been a loser": it had to be backed up by the historical evidence. \- internal mobility is explicitly encouraged. Bosses know that having a one of your guys in another department improves your communication network and makes dealing with that department much easier. ------ vermooten In other breaking news: the Pope is a Catholic. ------ goldenkey I have an abusive manager horror story from 2014-2015 Seattle Amazon. I opted to quit rather than being subjected to further abuse. The manager's name was Maulik Patel. He had the worst attributes you could ask for in a manager. Unsupportive, jaded, and emotionally draining. He kept threatening to fire me but never would...for something like 4 months until I said fuck it and quit. His main reasons were that I wasn't fast enough despite finishing the tickets in my sprints pretty much all the time. He had a vendetta against me for being hired to do the job he couldn't. He had flat files of libraries like jQuery and KnockoutJS and d3 committed into our repo. He used the synchronous ajax call flag to download language files...freezing every page for a quarter of a second. There was no way to upgrade all our libraries or fork them properly without undoing all of his mess. I put us on Bower for web packages and rerolled everything. He was pissed about that. Pissed I fixed his mistakes. He would say things like I am level 4 so I need to pull tickets from the next sprint when I am done with the current sprint. Fundamentally he did not understand what role management had in planning and how to do it properly without antagonizing individual contributors.. Maulik attacked team members including me with qualitatives like slow and fast. He would spread his hands like he was showing a quantity and say you are here but need to here [moves hand higher.] It was his first time as a manager. When I took the job Jeff Grote was actually signed on to be my manager..but Jeff pulled a bait and switch early into my start..sticking Maulik as a middle manager under himself. Coulda all been avoided if Jeff did me proper. When I left I sent an email to the team explaining my grievances which I felt they deserved but which is for sure unprofessional. I probably shoulda went to HR but I had heard bad things about HR at large companies. Couldnt have been worse than not getting severence or unemployment. Live and learn... Care to share any similar stories? Would probably make me feel better to hear how someone else dealt with a bad manager scenario. If not its fine. Here's an email I had sent to Jeff (his manager): Jeff, I'm coming to you about Maulik's behavior. Literally, it's so bad that even when I come home, or I'm off on weekends, I'm thinking about how to deal with the guy. It's totally unsuitable for job satisfaction. My job satisfaction isn't even reflecting the tickets I do anymore, it's literally tarnished, shit on, by the passive-agressive comments Maulik makes on the regular, he usually sticks a smiley face at the end of his insults as if that makes them less offensive. When I came onboard, the javascript and front-end workflow and ui, and code, were absolute chaos. I am not one to cry over spilled milk. I fixed 90% of it and did not insult Maulik, because I understand that it isnt productive to do so. However, I don't know why Maulik feels the need to stomp on me for what amounts to the smallest kind of things. If you look at my ticket resolving rate, I'm like a speed demon, Ashley can vouch for this. So I'm getting my job done. But either Maulik has a personality or managerial deficit, he is somewhat envious that I am doing a category of task right (front-end) that he only was shoddily able to do. Or he has no idea, is oblivious, and thinks his unelegant and critical behavior is conducive to being a good manager. And it isn't, I can tell you, based on my satisfaction and willingness to do good work. He's going against that with his continued vitriol. For example, this timezone issue. He has 100 other issues to deal with. And he chooses to spend 20 minutes researching and finding a different library than the one I used (Which he may not have found...20 minutes could end up empty handed..) Just so he can trump me. And it's a habit with Maulik. He ended up saying "This kind of research is what is expected from an Amazon engineer." All too common for me to talk to him, and then he ends up using corporate culture rhetoric to crap on me. "Andrew, most people don't last long here. A lot of people get fired. Amazon culture, you need to learn it" Intimidation tactics, dismissal of my concerns, and basically abusing the idea of Amazon culture to avoid taking personal responsibility. I really need you to step in here and deal with Maulik. He's a new manager and is showing it. A good manager is supposed to improve the teams efficiency, correct? He's actually making me not want to work, because of the amount of vitriol I get for performing well. It's anti-correlated. It's negative reinforcement.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Tell HN: YC Summer 2009 application is due today. - sarvesh The YC summer 2009 application is due today at 10pm PST. I am curious as to how many of you submitted, or will be submitting, the optional video of founders?<p>http://ycombinator.com/s2009.html ====== pg We just passed the number of applications from last cycle, so it looks like this will be another record, considering we usually get around a third of the applications on the last day. ~~~ unalone Now that it's closed - what was the final count? ~~~ pg Unless my clock is wrong there's still half an hour left. But we never quote the number anymore anyway, because now that we have competitors we don't want to tempt them to get into a number war. ~~~ unalone Damn, I thought it ended at 10 EST rather than PST! All this time I could have been making teensy little anal adjustments! ~~~ palish And yet, if your team is solid, those tiny adjustments are probably a waste of time. ~~~ unalone Absolutely! I doubt that if we don't get accepted it'll be because we didn't tweak our application enough. At the same time, it doesn't hurt, and on occasion I do find things that really could be done better. (As it turns out, I added a good deal to one question that I'd breezed over the first time.) ~~~ palish Yeah, I was just musing that us engineers love to focus on things which don't really matter. It's an interesting phenomenon, and I do it all the time too. I wonder if the solution is as simple as continually asking ourselves, "Am I spending my time on one of the most critical aspects of the project?" Anyway, I didn't mean anything by it. :) ~~~ unalone Yep! No offense taken. :-) It's not just programmers, FYI. I got that from the dank world of creative writing. Spending a month working on a sonnet = not-totally-fun times. ------ grinich I'm just now clearing my room of coffee mugs, pizza boxes, and bowls of soggy cereal. I'm unshaved, and have hardly stepped outside my dorm room for the past 48 hours. There's a celebratory beer in the fridge, and then I'll probably sleep for an entire day. We've started building something really awesome, and although I'm sleep- deprived and red-eyed, I'm incredibly excited. I can't wait until the summer when I can go full time on this project. YC or no YC, it's going to be a wild ride. ~~~ jdileo your post is an inspiration.....what it's all about! Best of luck w/ your startup. ------ YuriNiyazov Submitted on saturday, with a video of me in my living room, unshaven and underslept. No expectations :) ~~~ kanny96 Oops, the slot for unshaven and underslept is taken! Gotta shave. It was a good exercise and now I appreciate much better why Cali Lewis, Amber Mac and Natalie Del Conte - show off their fumbling at the end. It was done with both hands on the cam. The cam's auto-focus had problem adjusting to the tube light in the basement and created a few blurs. It wasn't scripted, but i practiced it 4-5 times, everytime missing some links or forgetting a key word! ~~~ unalone After shooting ours and giving it a second look, I was filled with a newfound awe for Ze Frank, who makes speaking really fast both interesting and hilarious. I never realized just how hard it is to say stuff quickly and not be a complete weirdo. ------ zaius We submitted on Monday with a simple photo booth video made in a cafe. It was just of us talking about the project and ourselves. Took us about 20 minutes from start to finish - may as well do it! ~~~ siong1987 We did the same thing too. We use photo booth to make a real short video intros. ~~~ jlees Yup, Photo Booth is great. +1 to using it to make the YC app video. And +1 to adlibbing, as well. As an ex-improviser (think Whose Line?), scripts just seem wrong ;) ~~~ unalone +1 to all of that as well! We spent about 3 hours just recording a lot and saying different stuff until it worked. As a result, our final video was a bit hyperactive and a lot lame, but we managed to actually convey information without sounding like zombies. ------ idm What about percentages? Frequencies are nice, but I wonder what percentage of applications include the optional video. ------ nanexcool We'll be submiting the video. You can say so much (or so little) in one minute though that we're still figuring out if we want to just ad-lib or have like a mini-script to read. ~~~ pg From the videos I've seen so far, I'd recommend ad-libbing. The point of the video is to see what you're like, and most people don't seem particularly bright when delivering (or worse still, reading) a prepared speech. Since this was the first time we'd tried videos we didn't realize this would be a problem. Next year we'll advise everyone to ad-lib. ~~~ tokenadult _most people don't seem particularly bright when delivering (or worse still, reading) a prepared speech_ Hear. Hear. Delivering a scripted speech well is HARD, and the people who are famous for doing that well practice a lot. Most members of the hacker community are much more practiced in engaging in conversation about the passion for technology, and thus make themselves look better in speech and in print by treating each communication opportunity as a conversation with an unseen interlocutor. ~~~ hedgehog +1, personally I'm pretty comfortable talking to all kinds of people in person but our team found that talking to a camera unscripted was hard (compounded by the amount of information it sounded like we needed to pack in to 60 seconds). It was still really helpful for getting our message straight though, even if we don't get in to the YC summer cycle it will be helpful for raising money. ------ khangtoh Paul: Did you guys reviewed early submissions this time round? We submitted our application when it was only half done 2 weeks ago but have been editing and resubmitting for the past 2 weeks and there was quite a bit of change from our very first submission. We sort of figured out that our application hasn't been reviewed since our demo url did not register any visitors yet on google analytics. ------ andrewljohnson We submitted a video for www.trailbehind.com. I have a Macbook, and it was really quick to make the video. MacBooks come standard with camera, recording, and editing software. ------ Eliezer Remember, everyone, there's no point in sending in more than one copy of your application! Applying to Y Combinator twice has the same effect as applying once. ~~~ iamwil As an aside, I took a look at your submissions, and it's paltry, meaning that you got most of your 1400 points from commenting. Good comments. ~~~ Eliezer Thanks. Either the people here don't get math jokes, or I commented too late to catch most readers. I'll try reposting on some more appropriate thread later... ...since if any joke can be repeated more than once, it's that one, right? Maybe everyone's just heard it a thousand times. ------ flooha Props to the YC crew for giving all of us this opportunity and hacking (machete, not keyboard) their way through the applications. I hope our video isn't too boring. We tried to keep it light, but we had to script it to say everything we wanted to say in <= 1 minute. I would have much rather submitted the outtakes, but we aren't getting graded on hilarity. :) Good luck to all! ------ dustineichler Solo founders? Anyone besides me. ~~~ unalone I've talked to a few solo founders, so they're definitely there! Good luck to you all. ------ ohkanon What if we never got a rejection letter, BUT We also never got contacted for a confirmation. Does that mean they are still going through them? ------ amichail I wonder if this video will be used to identify founders who would look good in a TV interview... and so enhance their chances of getting funding from VCs, especially early on. ~~~ wwwjscom2 You can give negative points? lol, I require that button ;) PS. Good luck peoples ~~~ suhail Yes, you need 100+ karma I believe before you can. ~~~ wwwjscom2 Thanks for the example ;) ------ pclark we're literally deploying our demo now, and then submitting. ~~~ pclark except github is down and we have various gems we need to deploy. Gonna be a late one, first [many] of many we hope .. ~~~ pclark done.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Android versus iPhone Development: A Comparison - mqt http://greensopinion.blogspot.com/2009/07/android-versus-iphone-development.html ====== makecheck "I just felt like I had to type way too much to express a simple concept" Heh, this is probably true of Objective-C, it's just funny to hear a _Java_ developer say this about any other technology... ~~~ ido Although it has some overly verbose constructs, IMO most of the complained verbosity in java is due to what is considered idiomatic java. You can indeed write much more concise and clear code in it, but for some reason the "proper" way to write java is to use a ton of factories, defining new class (and immediately extending them with more subclasses) for every little thing, wrappers, interfaces and so on. ~~~ Zaak The reason why idiomatic Java is so verbose is because if you don't write it that way from the start, you wind up painting yourself into a corner because Java doesn't have any way to add flexibility later without breaking things. It's one of the reasons I really dislike Java. ------ rottencupcakes _"We may see a shake-up in the mobile market, with at least 18 new Android handsets being released this year. Until that happens, iPhone will remain a market leader and developers will have to put up with XCode and Objective-C."_ Although the author says this, the fact that 18 new android handsets can be released in a year is one of the problems with both Android and, to some degree, Windows Mobile. The iPhone OS isn't really revolutionary. Even their interface on their home screen is pretty simple, it's just a more rigid desktop metaphor, Apple dock and all. It's the hardware that truly stands out. The hardware features Apple's carefully thought out design and style, along with an incredibly well done multi-touch screen. The awesome hardware accompanying the incredibly polished and functional screen are really the biggest selling points of the iPhone that no one has matched yet. It's the same win that Apple's laptops provide over the multitude of OEMs that produce other computers. But it's obvious that hardware design is more important to consumers than the development platform, thus developers are going to have to cope. ~~~ davidw Apple makes nice things, but market segmentation is good. It means people can choose between the basic 25 Euro Nokia that doesn't do that much, or the 500 Euro model with all the bells and whistles, or a variety of phones in between. My guess is that Apple doesn't really care: they'll eventually end up with some reasonable, but minority stake in the market... more or less like the computer market. ~~~ andrewmu This is not what happened in the music player market - in 2007 the iPod commanded over 70% of sales, helped by modest segmentation (flash vs HDD). While the mobile phone market is much larger and a phone is less of a luxury item for many, I expect they could eventually have the majority of the smartphone market. ~~~ davidw I think they'd lose some of their cachet if that happened. In any case, I hope they stay in a smallish chunk of the market like the computers - they're nice phones, but I am simply not interested in a hacker- unfriendly platforms, and I'd hate to see it become the major, or only one. Android wins by a mile (or two) from that point of view. ~~~ Zaak Indeed. The simple lack of a hardware keyboard means the iPhone isn't really an option for me. If there were no phones available with hardware keyboards I would be very disappointed. In fact, I'm disappointed that there are no upcoming Android phones with decent keyboards, so I won't be getting an upgrade any time soon. ------ vasi _XCode and it’s associated tools (debugger) like to open lots of windows. Want to open a file? How about a new window for you!_ Er...Preferences -> General -> Layout -> All-in-one? ------ superjohan A lot of this article reads like "I'm used to A which means A is better than B". For example, his troubles with Xcode. ~~~ zyb09 yeah but he does have a valid point. Java's IDEs are just so much better than what ObjectiveC has to offer and having a GarbageCollector makes you're code much less error prone and increases productivity. So it kind of _does_ seem like a stoneage enviroment coming from Java. ~~~ boucher Not having GC on the iPhone is unfortunate, and I think there's a good chance we'll see it in OS 4.0. But Apple developers have a culture of not trusting garbage collection. It's irrational, but it runs deep through most of the experienced Apple devs I know. Thankfully, of all the manual memory management environments I've used, Objective-C's is the best. ------ jemmons The authors 12+ years of java development and no objc experience renders this comparison mostly useless. ------ travisjeffery This guy sounds like he has been programming Java way too long without doing any other programming to expand his mind and in his first attempt at something new and different complained the entire time. ~~~ hypermatt LOL I was thinking the same thing ;), Java is OK for web dev, but jeez frontend GUI development ;/ He didn't touch on the pure speed of an iphone app/game. ------ carterschonwald "You also can’t see or install apps that cost money on a developer phone. Actually you can, but not if the app has copy protection — which is almost every non-free app. On the other hand when you upload your app to the app store it’s available within minutes, so you don’t have to worry about an approval process." That seems unfortunate, as with some of the android phones you essentially want the developer version (or something similarly unlocked) so that you can eg kill background processes when you don't need them to improve battery life ------ antirez I don't like Java at all, and I'm a long time C programmer, but... in the article there is at least one thing that's simply true: Objective-C is an 80s language, from syntax to behavior. What is particularly annoying about it is that's not low level enough, like C, where you manage memory by hand but it's pretty clear what's happening, nor it is more high level (automatic memory management of some kind). It's in the middle. Another problem is verbosity. It's just too verbose to create a trivial class, and the syntax is hard to remember in my opinion. ~~~ boucher C has no conventions for memory management. You've got malloc, you've got free, and the rest is up to you. Objective-C has an easy to follow pattern, reference counting, which is used consistently throughout the language and libraries. Creating a class is no more (or less) typing than Java or C++. The syntax is _different_ , but harder to remember? Not really convinced of that. There are basically six things to remember: @interface for declaring a class header @implementation for declaring a class implementation @end for ending either -whatever for an instance method +whatever for a class method and [object message] for message passing syntax ~~~ antirez This is exactly the problem. In every reference counting system you need to know if a function will incrRefCount or not the passed argument, if you need to increment it instead before to pass a new object, and things like this. One can try to have conventions but actually it is needed to know the behavior of other code in order to know if objects are reused, if one must pass objects that will be retained, if the object is expected to be already "safe" and will simply used and removed without to retain/release the reference. For instance if you try to write a C extension for Python or Tcl or other systems using reference counting you'll notice that if you don't know every well the internals it can be not obvious when to increment or not the refcount. I use refcount myself in Redis, and again for people not used to Redis internals to implement a new command may not be trivial exactly for this problem of reference counting. Reference counting is not something to expose for a language that aims to be a such an higher level. In short every language with complex OOP system should have some kind of automatic memory management IMHO. ~~~ boucher Reference counting really isn't _that_ hard to follow. Cocoa's conventions are pretty straightforward. You need to release (or autorelease -- which by the way is great) for every call to alloc, retain, copy (inc. fooCopy), or new (inc. newFoo). Everything else is autoreleased. Exceptions are documented.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Does anyone code Smalltalk any more? - kcd ====== Goladus ezboard, a 1998 startup, used Smalltalk for their bulletin board service. They did really well for awhile but have been declining steadily ever since 2003. Apparently they couldn't figure out how to make money from the sites with heavy traffic. After some unpopular decisions about pricing and advertising, many of their biggest customers decided to host their own boards instead, using solutions like vBulletin or phpBB. ezboard had several different subscriber levels. The free version caused your board to be so full of popups and other intrusive ads as to be almost unusable. It was worse than Myspace (and Firefox wasn't very popular yet). The first paid level let you turn off the popups but left the banners, including a huge banner at the bottom so that if you hit the "end" key to see the latest comment you'd wind up with a banner in your face and would have to scroll back up to see the comments. The premium level let you turn off all ads, but it was more expensive to do that than simply hosting your own solution. They still exist, but I haven't really been paying attention. I'm not sure if they still use Smalltalk or not. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezboard> ------ pg One YC-funded startup is using it. ~~~ shankys Are they using Seaside or rolling their own framework (I'm assuming they're doing a webapp)? ------ kcd I got Founders At Work a few days ago and saw that one of the guys (not Paul Graham, I think) used Smalltalk for an early version of their site... ~~~ Tichy I don't know smalltalk, but got interested lately because of the 100$ laptop, which seems to build on squeak. Also there was some interesting framework for multiuser virtual worlds, I think it might be Croquet (also based on squeak): <http://croquetconsortium.org/index.php/About_the_Technology> So I would also be curious to know if smalltalk is still worth checking out. ~~~ mmiller The $100 laptop (also known as the OLPC--One Laptop Per Child project) is not based on Squeak. It's partly based on Linux (the OS), but the stuff users see is largely written in Python. Squeak is on the laptop as one of the things students can use. I think the main reason it was put on there was for its eToys facility, which allows kids to draw objects on the screen and then program them to do things, to create their own simulations. It also has some games that run on it. It's on there as part of the open source spirit of the system as well. Since Squeak reveals all of its code in Smalltalk, once they learn the language they can explore it and modify it however they like. The same goes for the Python stuff. Re: Croquet Yes, Croquet is written on the Squeak VM. It's actually based on a modification to Squeak, called "Tweak". IMO Smalltalk is worth checking out. I've been doing so. There are different paths you could take with this. The basic level you can explore is the Smalltalk language itself. There are online books on the language you can read. There are some hardcopy books that cover the higher levels of Squeak. There's Morphic, which is the window manager for the Squeak desktop environment. There's eToys, which is a more abstract, but easy to use, scripting environment. Then there's Seaside, which is a web application framework for it. There are no books for this. The best source I've found for it are blogs that focus on Seaside. Seaside uses some advanced programming constructs to create a programming environment that's unlike most other web frameworks out there. I haven't used it directly yet, but from what I've read about it, it's really nice. If you get into it you probably won't want to go back to what you used before. ------ Benja DabbleDB is a startup using Smalltalk. <http://dabbledb.com/> ------ SwellJoe I think a better question would be, "Does anyone program in Smalltalk yet?" It seems to be becoming more popular, rather than less. As people begin to get an awareness of more advanced paradigms some of the older research languages begin to look nicer. Smalltalk is OOP done very well. Ruby is actually a lot like it, and may turn out to be a better Smalltalk than Smalltalk (some would say otherwise, of course). ------ slobin One my friend codes aviation simulators in Smalltalk. ------ AF Smalltalk is a really excellent language. Very minimal (yet attractive and understandable syntax), and the use of blocks make very cool things possible. Ruby is about 75% there. Unfortunately Smalltalk suffers from the same problem Common Lisp does; poor marketing/popularity and so-so implementations (compared to say Python). ------ rbc A friend of mine is using Squeak to prototype financial applications requiring rich user interfaces. I'm betting coding the same kinds of interfaces in Java or C++ would take a lot longer. It's something to think about when you're trying to get demonstrations ready on time.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
“Working Too Hard And Not Getting Anywhere” - dmarinoc http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2013/04/you-are-working-too-hard-and-not-getting-anywhere.html ====== tarr11 This is a great story. But perhaps a story of survivorship bias as well? It would be interesting to know if this happened 3 months, 6 months, or several years after TACODA was working on their product. According to this Rho ventures article, TACODA was founded in 2001. <http://www.rhoventures.com/new-media-Tacoda-case-sudy.htm> They raised 12M from Union Square in 2006. Fred Wilson states he was an early angel investor, and that this conversation occurred early. My question is - Did they pivot because they raised a lot of money and were under pressure from investors? Or was it the right thing to do? They certainly had a successful exit by selling to AOL a year later for a good chunk. Hard to argue with that. But, then AOL shuttered it, and there's not much data on why (other than the "AOL are incompetent" trope) So, did they sell AOL a time bomb? Or did AOL screw it up? ~~~ davemorgannyc The pivot of TACODA occurred more than 3 years after launching the business and a lot of work in the product. We weren't pressured into the pivot. But, as Fred Wilson related, we were working super-hard at the business and only had a modest technology license business to show for it. Our board - Fred, Brad Burnham, Rich Levandov (Masthead/Avalon), Habib Kairouz (Rho) and Curt Viebranz (COO) - was composed of folks who were long-time VC's and very strategic and senior, so they were comfortable with the idea that we should try to go big. We knew that our clients couldn't exploit our platform as well as we could. So, when Brad pushed us to really evaluate whether we couldn't build a bigger (and easier) business doing what our clients weren't doing well - using our platform to deliver and sell better targeted online ads - it didn't take long for all of us to realize that we should take the chance and pivot. As for post-AOL ... a lot was going on at that time that makes it hard to analyze without the advantage of hindsight. While most of the team didn't end up staying with AOL very long, the technology still powers most of Aol's targeted ad business, I believe, and the team has spread out and populate dozens of adtech start=-ups today. ~~~ fredwilson i love it when the lead character in the post stops by and participates in the discussion ------ Eduardo3rd "Sometimes you have the right product but the wrong business model" This is the 3rd time I've heard a variant of this in the past couple of days. Most of the time when I think of a pivot I imagine changing the product pretty substantially, but I think this seems more true to the analogy. I've seen some success in changing my business model as I started pitching again recently. People are responding much better to our new approach than the one we had a year ago. (Not that successful pitches are the same thing as real success) ~~~ brudgers The product changed, the widget didn't. In other words, because TACODA was selling services, by changing accounting practices their customers saw a radically different product - one which made the person recommending it to their boss look clever. The pivot more fully leveraged TACODA's expertise. Because their they understood the how and why and when of the data's value so much better than their customers, the fraction of their monetization sent to their customers was more money than their customers were ever likely to extract. "How can I send someone a check?" is a counter-intuitive business model for most people. Even though it is used all the time. ~~~ waps One might say it more closely played to the greed of their "consumers" (publishers in the article), letting them use the company's product without any real risk or even competence. Instead of taking money from their customers, they gave money to their customers. Now if I could only make Lamborghini do the same ... ~~~ darkxanthos One might say that, but I wouldn't agree. :) They didn't so much target greed as they did reduce the initial investment risk. ------ sbarre I love stories like this.. I personally know of a similar story on a smaller scale, where a consulting team was developing custom web solutions for client after client (in the CRM space), and one day decided to turn their product into a SAAS offering instead. They went from selling 3-4 sites a year to having several hundred clients in about 3 years, and even spinning the SAAS business out into it's own separate company that is now 10x the size of the consulting company (which they still run for other types of custom work). So it's definitely true that sometimes the pivot is in the approach and not the product. And isn't that basically the 37 Signals success story also? They took their custom products and turned them into SAAS offerings.. ~~~ jdminhbg > And isn't that basically the 37 Signals success story also? They took their > custom products and turned them into SAAS offerings.. Not quite; they spun out their internal tools into SaaS offerings while doing custom dev. ------ msrpotus My worry, though, is how do you know you're reaching a local maxima? What's the tip off that the slow-going is a sign that you need to change directions and not just work harder? ------ corry I think successful "pivots" like this usually have to do with rebalancing the risk of the customers. In the article's example, the risk is shifted away from the publishers ("am I sure this software will be worth it?") to the startup ("we only make money when this works"). To my eyes, even the more traditional enterprise-to-SaaS model shifts that are happening reflect the same trend - trading the (customer) risks of big $$$ up- front, long implementation etc for the (startup) risks of needing to attract more customers to make the same amount of $$$. ------ AznHisoka Misleading title.. I was expecting to read something similar to that article on the programmer that completely lost it. ~~~ aheilbut There's no reason that the same thinking can't be applied to one's individual strategy. ~~~ watsonc73 I think most seasoned experts (in their respective domains) have applied this approach in one shape or form to their individual strategy. Working smart instead of hard has to be learned the hard way though. It's very difficult to see the wood from the trees unless you're actually in a forest. A certain amount of trial and error is required before anyone can reach this point in my opinion. ------ rrsk Absolutely correct for an entrepreneur. But If you are in good job but feel bored. here is my version You may have the right job but the wrong working model. Fixing the working model can fix ur work life.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Law Enforcement’s Possible Use of Surveillance Technology at Standing Rock - benevol https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/12/investigating-law-enforcements-use-technology-surveil-and-disrupt-nodapl-water ====== Fnoord See also the documentary "The Feeling Of Being Watched". An insider's look at an Arab community that's been under FBI surveillance since the '90s [http://www.feelingofbeingwatched.com/](http://www.feelingofbeingwatched.com/) EDIT: apparently it is a Kickstarter project which met its goal [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/beingwatched/the- feelin...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/beingwatched/the-feeling-of- being-watched-a-documentary-film) ~~~ devoply Surveillance apparatus of the modern state is intensive and deep. So imagine if they are already watching everybody as Snowden pointed out, how much more info can they dig up on much smaller groups that they are really watching. ~~~ deeth_starr_v This is where I think Obama failed. He had too much trust in government -- "these are good guys". Then, BAM! Trump. Trump is the Apocalypse for Libertarians. ------ jostmey Quote "Sudden mobile phone battery draining" Yikes! It sounds like the camera and microphone had been activated remotely and were being use to spy on _citizens_. ~~~ tedunangst Or more mundane stingray behavior. It tells your phone to increase transmit power to make triangulation easier. ~~~ funnyfacts365 Mundane? Stingray? Maybe in your fascist country... ------ BuildTheRobots Previous HN discussion here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13100191](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13100191) (though sadly there seems to be no more actual evidence (as yet,) than previously reported by Cracked) ------ thescribe This is sad, but not surprising. I would even feel a little better if there was a warrant. ~~~ rhizome As a side point, "not surprising," "I don't know why anybody's shocked by this" and related reactions are how apathetic people help normalize bad behavior. It's the cutting-edge of acceptance for early observers to assert that they're already jaded and besides that what's taking everybody else so long? If you don't like it, the key is to _remain surprised that it 's continuing_. Backbiting on those who do is the exact wrong thing to do, and essentially works to turn change agents against each other. Call it political hipsterism. ~~~ justin66 You might be overreacting a bit to the comment you're replying to. The way you quoted something he didn't say next to something he did say is uncharitable. ~~~ rhizome I was describing a class of responses of which the actual quote is only one. This seems evident by the grammar I chose, but maybe not? ~~~ justin66 You did a bit more than that, and there was nothing unclear about your grammar. ~~~ rhizome Of course I did more than that. Are you trying to say you didn't like my point? ~~~ justin66 A person who says such a thing is "not surprising" could mean many things, and they're not necessarily trying to normalize bad behavior. A person who says "I don't know why anybody's shocked by this," the statement you made up, had gone a lot further down the road of normalization. It would have been less douchey to feel out the person you were responding to as to what they meant, rather than simply assigning them to a category.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
What makes the US health care system so expensive - iamelgringo http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/?p=9006 ====== gregwebs Unfortunately you won't find the answer here. In part the problem is we are comparing ourselves to Europe, which is still very similar to us. The real answer is that we are extraordinarily unhealthy. We now assume that we are supposed to have an assortment of health problems that must be alleviated by drugs or costly medical interventions. One remarkable example to demonstrate this point is that we assume humans are required to have dentists and orthodontists pull and shape their teeth for them to come in correctly. Of course, that is not the case- such a creature could not survive in the wild and there is ample evidence to the contrary: <http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/price/price8.html> ------ benmccann I have a hard time believing the main cause is overuse of medicine although it's a likely contributor. I was in a car crash a couple weeks ago, went to the ER, waited 8 hours without seeing a doc, gave up and went home. Just got the bill for $1,000. $1,000?! to sit in a waiting room without seeing a doctor! Prices at hospitals are unconscionable and divorced from reality. No one asks what things cost and so the hospitals take advantage. ~~~ dbrannan Are you going to contest that? ~~~ benmccann Nope. My insurance is picking up the tab, so I have no incentive to. I did however get my copay waived. ------ gjm11 Earlier discussion, two days ago: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1747202> (There are other posts in the same series, to which the one linked here is the introduction. At least one has been submitted to HN, but hasn't attracted any comments.) ------ ursablanco It's a silly thesis. For one thing it confuses cause and effect. For another, compare the per capita GDP of Norway, which is higher than the US's and Norwegian health outcomes, which are also better. I'm left wondering; what about the current situation so appeals to the blogger that they attempt to make it an inevitable outcome of being a really rich country. ------ fragmede For the temporally challenged, the linked articles are all already up. ------ chopsueyar Our crappy food supply. ------ stygianguest Simple: Americans, pious and sinful as they are, don't want to go to hell. Hence their money flows towards churches and healthcare. ~~~ evo_9 _...pious and sinful..._ You cannot be serious, are you? ~~~ CapitalistCartr Please don't fee the trolls. Evo, you know that. ~~~ evo_9 Ha, yeah thanks for the reminder...	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Brainstorm HN: How to Beat Facebook - Non-tech Strategies - jaytee_clone Notes: I want to try out a brainstorm session on HN. The first topic came up in my mind was facebook, probably because it got so much coverage with the privacy issues and Diaspora etc.<p>Topic: Assume you are Diaspora (or any competitor), also assume that technical issues have been solved. What are some strategies to convert users from facebook?<p>Rule 1: Be as far-fetched as possible - quantity over quality<p>Rule 2: Only reply to someone's idea when you can build on top of it. If you really want to express that certain ideas won't work, start a separate comment with your explanation and an alternative idea.<p>For example: I will start with a few ideas in the comments below. ====== jaytee_clone Organize a national quit facebook day (Sept 1). Build website for it and ask people to publicize the url in their facebook profile, status, twitter, etc. ~~~ pedalpete A good start. I would also recommend going after a target market. Apparently the current growth of Facebook is in the +35 demographic, so maybe targetting University students at the start of the term would help. Being the unfacebook doesn't just mean 'another place to share', it needs to provide an alternative to just privacy. Sewing the seeds of dissent by targetting University students who made facebook what it is, and possibly are those that facebook is ignoring as it goes forward. This is one of the things I really like about diaspora. The four guys in the video are exactly where Zuck was not long ago, but they have a better target and purpose, though they still need help communicating what that vision is. ~~~ jaytee_clone Yeah, college students tend to be more rebellious too. Maybe they will even organize delete-your-facebook parties. Getting one of these parties in the media will be pretty effective PR. Targeting school newspaper / TV station for that kind of PR is a good first step. ------ jaytee_clone Build a tool so that a facebook user can scrape email addresses of her friends, which can then be used to jump start a new social network.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
How many of you are looking for your next startup? - DanBlake Just curious how many are not involved in a startup currently, but in the thinking/planning (not coding) stage. ====== RKHilbertSpace I am currently looking at applications of Machine Learning and have been thinking about launching a startup. I would have started programming 6 months ago except that my geographic area is sub-optimal for finding people who are sufficiently motivated to make the necessary sacrifices. ------ michaelrkn funny you ask. i just posted <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1027584>.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The Help Center That Everyone Hated - jyaker https://supportify.io/the-help-center-that-everyone-hated/ ====== michaelt My days would usually start around 6/8AM and end somewhere between midnight and 3 AM. [...] I Was The Main Problem [...] my overall attitude was horrible (definitely a topic for another post) If I made my employees work 21 hour days, I'd expect their attitudes to be horrible too. ~~~ jyaker Post Author here! I would probably expect the same thing from my employees as well. If I was to blame my bad attitude on the hours, that would be a total cop-out. I've always had issues with soft-skills; especially in the area of attitude and communication skills. I've done a lot of work in the last couple of years to try and be a better communicator (and hopefully a better human being). I'm still a work in progress though. ------ dang Url changed from [https://medium.com/@jordanyaker/the-help-center-that- everyon...](https://medium.com/@jordanyaker/the-help-center-that-everyone- hated-883ffdba4788#.cgj2rwlqa), which points to this.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Zynga's new CEO was also its first - robgibbons http://www.engadget.com/2015/04/08/zynga-original-ceo-returns/ ====== flipmonk Its painful to watch them struggle so much. The once mighty Zynga, now cant be seen anywhere.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
4 in 10 Americans engaging in high-risk cleaning practices due to SARS-CoV-2 - kasperni https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6923e2.htm ====== easytiger I visited an elderly relative to bring food and noticed that when she washed her hands she was spraying them with a well known spray bottle brand of kitchen surface cleaner.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
React Native vs. Flutter: A comparison from real project experience perspective - pezo1919 https://medium.com/javascript-in-plain-english/react-native-vs-flutter-a-comparison-from-real-project-experience-perspective-1e7fbd56f217 ====== w3clan Saying "Fuchsia OS is future" in your post is "Hard to Believe". One simple line: Android is here for a long-long-long time until Oracle wins a lawsuit against Google. The developer community base is extremely large and any OS is famous because of its community of developers.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Selector uniquing in the dyld shared cache (Snow Leopard performance) - bensummers http://www.sealiesoftware.com/blog/archive/2009/09/01/objc_explain_Selector_uniquing_in_the_dyld_shared_cache.html ====== cpr This is Greg Parker's blog; he's an Objective-C runtime wizard at Apple. Definitely worth reading. (Very low volume.)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The field of “useful reals” between rational and real numbers (2019) - peanut_is_yum https://chittur.dev/math/2019/12/05/secret-field.html ====== Sniffnoy None of this is somehow secret. The standard name for this is "definable"[0]. Although, one has to be really careful with this sort of thing; there are apparently a number of subtle logical issues[1] that come up when talking about these... (Note, by the way, that there's any number of other fields one could put inbetween; such as the field of algebraic reals, or computable reals, or the fraction field of the ring of periods...) [0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definable_real_number](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definable_real_number) [1] [https://mathoverflow.net/a/44129/5583](https://mathoverflow.net/a/44129/5583) ~~~ dwohnitmok Well that Math Overflow post is excellent. One of the logical issues is that there is a model of ZFC where all reals are definable/useful. I'm guessing that's not what the author of this blog post is going for... If this seems impossible given that the number of definitions is countable, note first that it is possible that a model of ZFC is itself countable (in a larger ambient model), but it cannot witness the countability of sets within itself. So when we say that a set is uncountable in ZFC, it is sometimes useful to make the distinction that it is only uncountable in the implicit model under discussion. Then note that definability, unlike countability, cannot be itself defined in the language of ZFC (due to Tarski's undefinability of truth result). Note that this is different from saying it's independent of ZFC. It cannot even be expressed in ZFC. Hence, unlike countability, there is no "relative" concept of definability, at least not relative to first-order ZFC. Therefore the statement "every element of this model is definable" is more absolute than "every element of this model is countable" (but not absolutely absolute, we still have an ambient model we're working in, just a richer theory for that model). The usual diagonalization argument within our entirely definable model of ZFC to try to construct a definable real number not contained in any countable enumeration of definable real numbers fails because we have no enumeration of definable real numbers. This is not a failure of constructivism (it is ZF _C_ after all, we do have choice), but rather a consequence of the fact that definability cannot be expressed in ZFC so we don't have a way of even talking about the set of all definable real numbers within our model. ~~~ dwohnitmok Upon re-reading my reply, it might be worthwhile to simply quote Hamkins' conclusion in full. > And therefore neither are you able to do this in general. The claims made in > both in your question and the Wikipedia page [the Wikipedia page has now > since been updated] on the existence of non-definable numbers and objects, > are simply unwarranted. For all you know, our set-theoretic universe is > pointwise definable, and every object is uniquely specified by a property. ------ emacdona The author claims in the notes that "The useful reals are similar, but not quite equivalent to other ideas in mathematics, such as [...] computable numbers." Is that correct? What is the complement of the Computable Numbers in the Useful Reals? What is the complement of the Useful Reals in the Computable Numbers? I've always thought of Computable Numbers as all numbers able to be represented by a finite string, ie: a computer program that would generate the number to any desired precision. How does that differ from the set of numbers with a finite symbolic representation? Hmmmm... maybe by asking that question I've led myself to the answer. Chaitin's Constant has symbolic representations, one of which being the Wikipedia page that describes it: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaitin%27s_constant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaitin%27s_constant). Does that mean it's included in the complement of the Computable Numbers in the Useful Reals? Are the Computable numbers a subset of the Useful Reals? ~~~ Sniffnoy The standard term is "definable", not "useful": [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definable_real_number](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definable_real_number) But yes, Chaitin's constant is an example of a number that is definable but not computable. ~~~ bloomer Yeah I think this terminology is odd because I think that the computable numbers are much more “useful” than the definable numbers. ------ D_Alex If you look at the _integers_ between say Graham's number ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham%27s_number](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham%27s_number)) and TREE3([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruskal%27s_tree_theorem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruskal%27s_tree_theorem)) you can observe that practically _all_ of these integers, while "computable", cannot be defined within the known constraints of this universe. Which raises an interesting question: In what meaningful sense do these numbers _exist_? They are just out of reach as the non-definable real numbers... ~~~ voxl You're mixing up "defined" with "defined via a decimal numeral" we can define these numbers without much difficulty via finite formula that compute them. This is a completely valid definition, it is just not a decimal numeral. An interesting idea might be "useful integers" which requires whatever definition we have to allow approximation of any finite subsequence with error converging to zero given more computational power. ~~~ pwdisswordfish2 GP did not mix up anything. Some of those finite formulas _also_ will be too long to be written within the constraints of this universe. The pigeonhole principle applies just as much to finite formulas as it does to finite strings of decimal digits. ------ klodolph Note that like the rational numbers, the field of “useful reals” is not complete. So if you have a sequence of “useful reals” that is Cauchy, it _will_ converge to a real number but it may or may not converge to a “useful real”. ~~~ function_seven Sorry if I misunderstand you. If I have a Cauchy sequence of "useful reals", wouldn't the convergence be, by definition, a "useful real"? That is, I can write down the Cauchy sequence, so it's now symbolically noted, right? Or are you referring to a Cauchy sequence that exists, but can't be defined using our symbology? ~~~ klodolph There are uncountably many Cauchy sequences of useful reals. You can’t write them all down. So now you have to also restrict yourself to “useful Cauchy sequences of useful reals”. This is a rabbit hole with no end. ~~~ wolfgke > There are uncountably many Cauchy sequences of useful reals. You can’t write > them all down. This does not hold if you demand that, for example, the map k -> a_k that represents the Cauchy sequence, is a computable function. ~~~ klodolph I am a bit shocked, because that seems like a really dishonest way of doing things. “Surprise! Actually, I am not talking about Cauchy sequences, but only computable Cauchy sequences.” If you change the rules you had better be up front about it. What you are describing is a _completely different definition_ for “complete metric space” than what is commonly accepted by the mathematical community at large. So do not be surprised that by using different definitions, you come to different conclusions. ~~~ wolfgke > I am a bit shocked, because that seems like a really dishonest way of doing > things. “Surprise! Actually, I am not talking about Cauchy sequences, but > only computable Cauchy sequences.” Rather: If countability is important to you, you should change the rules so that the property that the field is closed w.r.t limits of Cauchy sequences does not make your set uncountable. Redefining the rules if something does not work is how you do mathematics works all the time: \- A PDE does not have a solution in a classical sense and you hate this? No problem: You invent the theory of weak solutions and distributions and simply change the concept what is to be considered a solution of the PDE. \- The concept of algebraic varieties turns out to be to limiting to obey the rules that you would love them to have? No problem: You define the concept of algebraic schemes and now talk about algebraic schemes instead of varieties ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scheme_(mathemati...](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scheme_$mathematics$&oldid=942687770)). TLDR: Mathematics is often the art of "defining your problems away". ~~~ pdonis _> If countability is important to you, you should change the rules so that the property that the field is closed w.r.t limits of Cauchy sequences does not make your set uncountable._ Ok, fine: I hereby declare that the set Q of rationals is a closed field, because I define "closed" to mean "closed under Cauchy sequences whose limit points are rational numbers". Does that seem OK to you? ------ doomrobo A nit: "reals are a field extension of ℚ. They could be considered an algebraic number field..." This is not an algebraic extension. Pi is a "useful real number" and it is not algebraic over Q. ~~~ klodolph Yes—and to elaborate, the reason why an algebraic field extension of ℚ cannot contain π is because: \- If it is a field, it contains π, π², π³, … which are linearly independent. \- By definition, an algebraic field extension is finite dimensional. ~~~ arberavdullahu You are wrong! The algebraic field extension ℚ[π] contains π. ~~~ jopolous I guarantee that is not an algebraic extension. It's not even a finite extension ~~~ lonelappde That's not a valid critique, as other commenters explained ~~~ jopolous You're totally right, I could have worded that differently. I actually posted an infinite field extension that is algebraic elsewhere in this thread, but usually those are tricky and I haven't seen them pop up as often as finite algebraic extensions ------ jepler Not "between" in the sense of having an intermediate cardinality between rationals and reals, since they are exactly the numbers available from strings in some symbolic system or other. Seems to be a slightly expanded case of algebraic numbers, since additional forms (like infinite definite integrals) are allowed. ~~~ xtacy Yep, that's right. Its cardinality is the same as rationals, since it's countable. ~~~ perl4ever How disappointing. Unlike most of the time, I read the article first and now that I'm here, that was the question I had - clearly it's smaller than reals, but how and why is this field larger than rational numbers? Guess it's not. ~~~ klodolph It’s larger than the rational numbers in the sense that it is a strict superset. Cardinality is what a lot of people reach for when they are talking about “larger” or “smaller”, but there are lots of other useful concepts which we can translate to “larger” and “smaller”. So when someone says “larger” or “smaller”, your first step might be to try and translate that relationship into a more precise mathematical concept, like cardinality or measure. Casual terminology also leads to weird discussions. Like when someone asks whether some function is “close” to another, and these functions are defined in terms of vector spaces. Unfortunately, “closeness” does not necessarily exist in a vector space. So the answer may be that the question does not make sense. ~~~ effie > “closeness” does not necessarily exist in a vector space. The asker will give a definition. For example, two vectors are close if sqrt of dot product of difference of the two vectors is smaller than some number delta. ------ OscarCunningham > A “useful real” is just a real number that can be precisely described (not > just approximated!) by some symbolic notation. Obviously, this definition is > loose and depends greatly on your choice of symbols and their definitions. In fact, the definition is necessarily loose. If you could make it precise then you could carry out Cantor's diagonalisation procedure to produce a precise description of a real which couldn't be precisely described, a contradiction. ~~~ thaumasiotes > the definition is necessarily loose. If you could make it precise then you > could carry out Cantor's diagonalisation procedure to produce a precise > description of a real which couldn't be precisely described Is this true without the Axiom of Choice? Don't you need a choice function to order the numbers before you can diagonalize them? ~~~ lonelappde Finite descriptions are countable. Axiom of Countable Choice is not counterintuitive like Axiom of (Uncountable) Choice. You can order the set of all definitions, by prepending each definition with its length and then using the ordering (numerical order, alphabetical order). ~~~ OscarCunningham That doesn't even need Countable Choice. You only need any form of Choice when you can't explicitly specify an order, which you did. ------ stephencanon Aside from all the other issues people have raised, equality is not decidable for the “useful reals”. While they form a field, they do not form a computably-ordered field, which makes them quite a bit less useful than many other number systems. ------ NelsonMinar Another related topic of interest is constructivism in mathematics. Unfortunately the wikipedia article is pretty abstruse, anyone have a more down to earth one? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructivism_(philosophy_of_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructivism_$philosophy_of_mathematics$) (Note this is different from constructible numbers, which the author mentions. That has to do with classical geometry.) ~~~ btilly My favorite is the collection of essays touching on the topic in the book *The Mathematical Experience". All of the other essays in the same book are also good. :-) ------ dchyrdvh The premise of this idea - that anything describable can be written in a binary firm and is thus countable - seems wrong. It's wrong because we easily invent new concepts and put them into a symbolic form. We could invent a new concept, agree on a new symbol for it and add it to our alphabet. The set of ideas isn't countable and so our alphabet isn't countable. This alphabet can't be translated into some binary form either. ~~~ PureParadigm Why is the alphabet not countable? If each time you think of a new idea and make a symbol for it, I can also assign it to an integer (because there is always a next integer like there is always a new symbol you can come up with). When you come up with a new concept, it should also be possible to write out a definition of it. If you can write down your definition (in English, math notation, etc.), then it comes from a countable set, since there are countably many things that you can write down. ~~~ dchyrdvh We don't "come up" with ideas from other ideas using some closed form rules of logic, like in Coq or some Turing machine. Instead, we discover new ideas. There is a world of ideas and the real world. People live in both worlds. When they discover a new idea, often by accident, they label it with a symbol and use it in the real world. Other people can see the same idea and since they can't fully describe it with words, they agree to use the new symbol. We describe new concepts with words, but those definitions are underspecified: they refer to things with vague or non existent descriptions, or just common sense. What is "set" for example? The same words often mean different things in different contexts. This extra meaning that's always attached to words is what makes these definitions non countable. ~~~ PureParadigm Even if ideas come from an uncountable set (not convinced yet), there are still only countably many ideas people will ever have. Each time anyone comes up with an idea, I can assign it a new integer. ~~~ dchyrdvh Im merely trying to drag the concept of separating ideas and reality as two different but very real worlds under the spotlight of everyone's attention. This concept is fundamental and very old. I won't be able to defend this idea with formal proofs. ------ leni536 Many sets have a "useful" subset this way. Even the class of all sets have a "useful" subclass. ------ lonelappde Such a weird perspective. The author thought they discovered something that true and interesting and kind of fundamental but wasn't already published, but didn't think it was worth publishing to the math community? ~~~ joppy Thinking about maths is fun, and some people do it for leisure and write what they find in innocuous places like blogs. Usually the things you come up with are already well-known by a different name (as was the case here), so one would usually not publish something like this. Think of it just like a random blog post on someone’s thoughts. Just because it contains maths doesn’t mean it needs to be published or not, it can be free to live its own life. ------ superjan this reminds me of unit testing, where the tests come up with arbitrarily defined numbers, and the function you test tries to come up with a consistent way to count them. If you can change your function each time a test is added, the tester never wins. Isn’t this similar? It seems like cherrypicking to include simple formulas with e and pi in your numbering system. ------ scarejunba Does this field behave differently from Q in some 'useful' way? ~~~ H8crilA It has sqrt(2), for starters? Not sure what do you mean by useful. It is not "useful" in the sense that reals are most "famous" for: it is not complete. Cauchy sequences can diverge in the useful reals field. ~~~ lonelappde Completeness in the "full" reals is a useless feature, though. All is gives you is an emotional crutch to pretend your cauchy sequences can be mapped to regular numbers. But it doesn't give you anything you didn't already have in the cauchy sequences and useful reals. ~~~ steerablesafe You are of course right, reals are isomorphic to equivalence classes of Cauchy sequences on Q. But once you are dealing with equivalence classes of Cauchy sequences on Q you might as well give it a name. Maybe call it R. ~~~ H8crilA His point is different. You cannot (by definition) ever write a "name", a formula, a rule, a lim expression, anything really, for a real that is not in the useful reals. ------ currymj it's good to see the "real numbers are fake" crowd out in full force! ~~~ lonelappde Ahem. Repeat after me, the Creed of Numbers: " The imaginary numbers aren't imaginary. The real numbers aren't real. " ------ dfox There is well defined name for "useful reals": Algebraic numbers. Of course the well-definedness necessitates some limit on how the symbolic description looks like (ie. algebraic numbers are roots of polynomials with rational coefficients) because every real number can be described by some arbitrarily complex symbolic notation. Edit: I vaguely remember that there used to be some name for the intersection of algebraic and real numbers, but I neither can remember it nor can find it on wikipedia. ~~~ JoshuaDavid > every real number can be described by some arbitrarily complex symbolic > notation This seems like it would have to be false, because otherwise the reals would be countable (iterate through every possible 1-character string, then every possible 2 character string, then 3 chars, etc and in a finite (but potentially very very large) amount of time you would come across the description of any real number that can be described). ------ arberavdullahu The author claims that this set is countable but not sure if that is true. My argument is based on Cantor's theorem [1], which states that the power set has cardinality strictly greater than the set. In order for the set of symbols to be finite field it must grow therefore since rational is infinitely countable from Cantor it must hold that "useful reals" is uncountable. [1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_theorem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_theorem) ~~~ selectionbias If you have a finite set of symbols, then the set of finite sequences of those symbols is countable. The key here is 'finite sequences', if you were to allow for infinite sequences then the set if uncountable. ------ PaulHoule This is one of my favorite obscure math topics. I think of the "useful reals" being the "reals that have names". Alan Turing developed the Turing machine to get a handle on the "useful reals" since you can make a Turing machine write them out one digit at a time. Given that, I don't like the term "real numbers" at all because they are phony compared to the "useful reals" \-- if you reject the axiom of choice then the construction that Cantor does to construct a real isn't valid. Despite calling for a rebuild of math and science based on computation, Steve Wolfram has yet to take the critical step of rejecting the axiom of choice. I wish he would man up. ~~~ OscarCunningham > if you reject the axiom of choice then the construction that Cantor does to > construct a real isn't valid Are you talking about Cantor's argument that the reals are uncountable? That doesn't need choice. ~~~ thaumasiotes Elaborating, the hypothesis that Cantor disproves is "The real numbers are countable -- that is to say, the real numbers can be put into one-to-one correspondence with the natural numbers". You never have to use the axiom of choice, because the hypothesis tells you there is a one-to-one function between the reals and the naturals. You can then order the reals in the order suggested by their image in the naturals: f(0), f(1), f(2), ...	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Why I Turned Down $5 Million in VC Funding - ph0rque http://www.groovehq.com/blog/turning-down-vc ====== ernestipark Well written article. In my brief stint with YC and other startup circles, I think one big takeaway I've had is that most (or at least many) people who want to start a startup or hit it big with a startup actually really want a lifestyle business. Hyper growth isn't the goal of the founders. Their goal is to create a good product that helps people and allows the founders to live comfortably and be happy with their work. Raising VC funding is not counter to many of those goals, but it's not the only (or best) path to them in most cases. ~~~ talkingquickly I wish I could upvote this more than once. What's more because of the focus on hyper growth, I think a lot of people are discouraged from working on valid problems which lack immediate potential for that kind of growth. ~~~ byoung2 That sounds like a conversation I just had yesterday with a coworker. We were translating Visio diagrams into user stories in Jira and we thought it would be cool to have a visual project management tool that had an interface like Visio that created tickets and managed dependencies, etc. He joked that he would only invest in it if you could apply Instagram filters to the diagrams and the Jira tickets disappeared after you viewed them. ------ waterlion I just see a HUGE ad asking for my email address and a passive-aggressive "No thanks, I don't want to grow my business", the rest of the page blacked out. I can tell there's content underneath but screw that, I'm not reading it after that. ~~~ alexmturnbull Sorry about that, should have only popped up if you left the page :( Gonna have to talk to bounceexchnage.com about this... Thanks for the heads up. ~~~ waterlion FWIW I opened it in a background tab. Still completely unacceptable. (EDIT: as in, your site is giving a value proposition and I don't accept it if it includes a massive popup) ~~~ thejosh Sorry your hacker news experience was ruined today, perhaps you can ask for a partial refund for your troubles. ~~~ waterlion I'm not going to copy and paste my answer to girvo, but that. I didn't have to take the trouble to give feedback. ~~~ thejosh Hey, I agree that it's a PITA - I didn't get it when I loaded the page - and I hate pages that do that, Writing "Still completely unacceptable." makes you come across as though you were ripped off in some way.. ~~~ rfnslyr Are we really at a point where we get deeply offended at some sort of UI change when we visit a page? Inspector it, remove it, read the article, and move the fuck on. ~~~ rhizome First, tell us where you're getting "deeply offended" from any of this. Is it that it became a subject of criticism at all? ------ codegeek I really like reading groovehq's blog. The writings are very specific with lot of actual details. This one is no exception and great piece of writing. The actual customer email screenshots are a gem. Just one suggestion: To get rid of the pop up that comes up first time when you visit the page, you have to click the cutesy "No Thanks I don't want to grow my business". This even though is trying to be different does not look professional enough to me. I would just re-word it to "No Thanks, take me back to the page where I was". EDIT: Found one typo in the blog where it says "4) How Much are You Willing to Get Dilluted?". Should be Diluted right ? EDIT 2: Typo has been fixed. ~~~ alexmturnbull Good catch :) Fixed... ~~~ codegeek np. So are you thinking about re-wording the "No thanks I don't want to grow my business" thing OR you believe strongly in it :) ~~~ alexmturnbull to think about :) ------ pytrin Ultimately, this is a decision every founder must make for themselves. Without knowing the specifics of the offer, it's also hard to really know what went behind it. Having said that, the rule of thumb is that you want _at least_ 12 months of runway, and that's at the rate you want to go at. It takes typically around 6 months (if things go well) to raise VC money (unless they come to you - which is pretty rare). From what I understood, Groove had 8 months at _the current_ runway - before hiring the additional people they want to bring on board. That's typically when you start raising before you go into the danger zone with your runway. Also, considering the current perceived drought of Series-A funding, a $5M offer for a business generating $16k monthly is an outlier. Of course, I hope Groove does well and never needs this money. Also, it's possible the deal terms were not favorable, though it's not mentioned specifically in the post. If that was not the case, in my opinion they had a chance to significantly derisk their business and they choose not to take it. Time would tell if their gamble pays off or not. ------ danielweber > Importantly, with eight months of runway, Groove didn’t need the money. Geeze, stop right there. If you _need_ the money, _IT IS TOO LATE_. You get money because you can _use_ it, not because you _need_ it. Sorry if this comes off as a rant. I was at a dysfunctional start-up once and I guess it comes out at odd times. ~~~ frandroid Also: If you _need_ the money, you're going to get fucked in the negotiation. You should be able to walk away from an investor who talks to you, otherwise they'll use your desperation against you and dilute the hell out of you. ~~~ michaelt There's a distinction between "need the money" as in "cannot achieve the business plan without investment" as compared to "running out of runway can't meet payroll" For example, if you need $$$ to build a nationwide network of warehouses, or to get your new electric car through safety testing, or as a bond for your new bitcoin bank's banking license, or to order the first batch of widgets from your manufacturer, you "need the money" because you can't achieve your business goals without it, but you aren't in a desperate hurry and you can shop around. If you need the $$$ to meet payroll and keep the lights on and the rent paid, but your business plan basically calls for you to keep doing what you're doing, you probably don't have a lot of time to shop around for investors. If you're not in either of those categories raising more capital now is optional, and you've got to consider whether it's worth what you'll have to pay for it. ------ ChuckMcM During the dot com boom it was a always an issue if your company took too much VC money. Having a fat bank account balance can make you lazy, you can spend on things you don't need (Aeron Chairs for Everyone!) and you don't "sweat the details." but a lot of the things startup teams need to learn how to do are the exact opposite, spend only when necessary, sweat all the details, understand where every dollar of your monthly burn is going and ask yourself every month "Did that dollar work as hard for me as it should have?" With too much money it is easy to lose the discipline to keep the business at the forefront of your thoughts. ~~~ GrinningFool I really dislike the specific way in which Aeron chairs have come to symbolize all that was bad about the dot-com era. The nature of that chosen symbol speaks volumes about the values our culture holds. Spending a thousand dollars on every employee to keep them comfortable while they sit at their desk and work for your company all day?! The epitome of profligate spending! A shining example of decadence! For shame, for shame! ~~~ janlukacs I'm sitting on one and i'll never buy one again. Overpriced crap. ~~~ GrinningFool I got one about a year ago, and am actually pretty happy with it. It's ended the continual parade of mid-range uncomfortable Office Depot chairs through my workspace, at any rate. ------ jc4p I loved the post and was not done reading your concluding statements before I got a giant pop-up that asked me to give you my e-mail to read the exact same post I was reading. I understand pop-ups like that work for making mailing lists but can you at least make it come at the _bottom_ of the page not in the middle of the last paragraph? That combined with clicking the "No thanks, I don't want to grow my business" button being the only way to get out of it made me leave the page without even finishing your article. ~~~ alexmturnbull Sorry about that, should have only popped up if you were about to leave the page... Fixing now. Thx. ------ mrgreenfur Between this and the recently reading about the Expensify team taking a month trip every year, I have this question: how do people get jobs at these well- meaning, intelligently planned companies? Seems like every startup I've worked at is more of the "OMG GRAB ALL THE CASH ASAP" kind, not the "Lets build happy users for a quality product". ~~~ edash The new job board from 37Signals would be a good start: [https://weworkremotely.com/](https://weworkremotely.com/) They've been beating this drum for a long time now. ------ PMan74 > Are you taking funding for the sake of taking funding, or do you actually > need the money? "Needing the money" probably needs to be defined here. If you're going to the VCs because you "need the money" as in the lights will go out pretty soon, unbutton your slacks and bend over because you are in no position to negotiate. On the other hand if you "need the money" because, in spite of the fact that your runway looks very very healthy, you can foresee a point well down the line where you will actually need the money then that's a much better scenario to be going to a VC. ------ frankdenbow Great post, love the series on groove. Question on convertible notes: doesnt a 1M seed round on a note suggest that a second round needs to happen? How do the investors feel about not having a second round to set the price and convert to equity? ------ jasonkolb So here's a question... with the new rules around fund-raising, why wouldn't he just throw up a box to this side of this article that says something like: "By the way... now that you've seen our numbers, if you're interested in a buying a small piece of equity in our company, leave your email address and we'll let you know terms." Is there any downside to an approach like this? Setting your own terms and then selling equity if you find people interested? ~~~ melvinmt Publicly advertising an investment opportunity is simply not allowed. ~~~ jasonkolb I thought the recent rule changes allowed this now... isn't this what Angel List is essentially doing? ------ sheetjs > Importantly, with eight months of runway, Groove didn’t need the money. > There were great arguments to be made about how we could use the money, but > weren’t running out of cash. No other reason is needed. If you don't need the money, and if you believe in the business, you don't need to justify turning down external investment. In fact, I'd argue that turning down money is harder than accepting it ------ howeyc Probably off-topic, but something I've never understood reading these things: How does this funding actually work? From what little I know (the stock market) you'd sell an equity stake in your company for a certain amount and you have money in your personal bank account. But it sounds to me like all these funds somehow go back into the company?? how?? what am I missing? ~~~ mattzito Okay, so yes, you are mechanically correct in that if you sold 10% of your shares for $1m, you would get the cash not the company. However, the way funding events work in real life is that new shares are created _by the company_ and then sold to the investors. As a very math-simple example, I have 1m shares in my company, and I own 100% of them. Some VCs want to take a ~33% share of the company for $5m. My "board" (me) creates 500k new shares, and sells/gives them to the investors for $5m. Now there are a total of 1.5m shares, of which I own 1m, and the VCs own 500k. EDIT: sometimes, though, a founder will sell part of their shares to the VCs during a funding event. That's usually to help give the founder a little liquidity and cash. ~~~ draz I think it's more typical to issue, for example, 10M shares, take 3M for yourself, and leave the rest for employees/VCs/whatever (rather than issue new ones, in a first round) ~~~ mattzito Yeah, you're right, that's often the case, especially when you have cofounders and early employees that you don't want to dilute during the first funding round. _However_ , I just wanted to keep the example simple, I thought it was easier to talk about creating shares than deal with the "who owns the unissued shares" notion. But yeah, that's a good clarification. ------ misterparker Great writeup. I'm so sick of hearing about VC funding, growth-hacking, hock- sticks, and user-acquisition and all in the name of an exit strategy. I hope to see more and more companies take this more bootstrap-ish approach to building sustainable businesses, solving a real problem for real people. ------ inthewoods One element that this misses is the fact that it isn't always clear what size business (or something even what business) you have at the beginning. Meaning, you might take $5m thinking you've got a high growth business only to discover, a long way in, that you've really got a slower growth business. I've seen this happen multiple times where the founders say things like "I love this business - if I was just running it myself, I'd really love it, but the funding makes it a constant fight." Truth is, high growth, highly scalable businesses are probably a bit rarer than we'd all like to admit. ------ nhangen TLDR; I turned down 5 million so that I could practically name the investor, get attention for my startup, and still make page 1 of HN. \---- I wonder how investors feel about posts like this. If you are an investor, would it change the way you feel about the CEO or the company? ~~~ beat Who cares? It's not like he's taking their money. edit: I'm not losing sleep over someone hurting the feelings of venture capitalists by publicly saying he didn't take their money when offered. Just as I doubt they're losing sleep over the companies they turn down. ~~~ nhangen I'm simply curious, that's all. ------ yesimahuman I'm excited by companies like this. I think you actually get the ability to do something that transcends just making a product and selling it. You get a chance to change what it means to grow and run a business. Groove might end up being very influential and meaningful beyond just customer support, like 37signals has. That's hard to do if you are shooting for an exit in 3-5 years just to be swallowed up by a big company. ------ yetanotherphd The only point that didn't ring true was on scaling. I think it makes more sense to scale while you have the money, and use that same money to deal with the issues that arise as you do so. Otherwise, you are leaving customers without your product for longer than you have to. And that could be their loss, not just yours. ------ Codhisattva Worth while read. It's great to see an entrepreneur want to build a company instead of a product to sell to investors. Go Groove! ------ smoyer This series is great but I wish it had the number for each part of the series somewhere in the URL. Or perhaps a sidebar (ruining a really clean site) with the series listed in order. Of course, my best recourse is to read each one as soon as the announcement shows up in my e-mail client's inbox! ------ juskrey I think that VC funding principle is an upside for VC funders and downside for majority of fundraisers. What VC funders basically do is a transferring of economic fragility to fundraisers, while hunting for positive "tail events". ------ not_that_noob Great stuff. It's hard not to buy into the standard startup myth of raising money and going big. 'Lifestyle business' is not a positive term. So I for one salute your courage. ------ grosbisou I find this so refreshing compared to all the "super todo app raises $30m" news. And I love these blog posts. So much information and facts about how they try to grow. Please keep going. ~~~ alexmturnbull thx! really glad you enjoyed it :) ------ xfax First rule of taking VC funding - be aware that you're on someone else's schedule once you do. ------ dblacc I started the article: He's a mad man. I ended the article: Hmm.. I never looked at it that way. Refreshing read. ~~~ alexmturnbull haha, I am mad though :) ------ georgiecasey These huge rounds are crazy, a $5 million exit would be life-changing for most founders. ~~~ TheBiv It wasn't an exit, it was a funding event. ~~~ georgiecasey I know, that's my point. These funding event amounts are big enough to be great exits for most founders. ~~~ TheBiv Very rarely, if ever, will a founder take money off the table in such a small funding round that is used to accelerate the business. ------ mswe Funding is overrated.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
3D Nano-Vortices Come into View - gigama https://physicsworld.com/a/3d-nano-vortices-come-into-view/ ====== gigama "The result is, in effect, a map of the magnetization dynamics for seven different time steps evenly spaced over 2 ns, with a temporal resolution of 70 picoseconds and a spatial resolution of 50 nanometres."	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Fast Tensors in Clojure – A Sneak Peek - dragandj https://dragan.rocks/articles/19/Fast-tensors-Clojure-sneak-peek?src=hn ====== dragandj Some more coordinates related to this post: Open source software: [https://github.com/uncomplicate](https://github.com/uncomplicate) Books: [https://aiprobook.com](https://aiprobook.com) Deep Learning for Programmers: An Interactive Tutorial with CUDA, OpenCL, MKL- DNN, Java, and Clojure [https://aiprobook.com/deep-learning-for- programmers/](https://aiprobook.com/deep-learning-for-programmers/) Numerical Linear Algebra for Programmers: An Interactive Tutorial with GPU, CUDA, OpenCL, MKL, Java, and Clojure [https://aiprobook.com/numerical-linear-algebra-for- programme...](https://aiprobook.com/numerical-linear-algebra-for-programmers) ~~~ sansnomme Congrats on shipping! Are you going to be writing the JVM for Clojure people book you suggested before? Am really looking forward to it! ~~~ dragandj First I have to finish the ones that are in progress :) ------ fnordsensei I can recommend this episode of The REPL podcast, where the author talks about some of the whys, hows, and current state of data science in Clojure: [https://www.therepl.net/episodes/25/](https://www.therepl.net/episodes/25/) ------ dkersten Dragan, thank you for your continued hard work (and your well written posts!) I haven’t got the time yet, but I’m very much looking forward to reading both your series of “deep learning from scratch” posts and your books. ------ Scarbutt What's the pitch in using Clojure for data science instead of Python, production workloads? ~~~ thom You don't have the mature bindings to things like TensorFlow or Torch, you don't have good viz libraries, you don't have broad support for the types of analysis scipy allows, and beyond Weka and random stuff like XGBoost having Java bindings, you don't have access to a lot of different models. That said, Clojure is _much_ better than both Python and R for data prep. You can build very nice, fast (parallel) pipelines with transducers etc, and stuff that seems like magic to tidyverse consumers in R is just everyday data transformation in Clojure. And despite the fact that Incanter more or less died, I still think the language would be a great fit for data science if the community was there, and Dragan's work really deserves that sort of attention. The foundations are already far superior to what's available in R and Python (e.g. you are doing stuff on the GPU on day one, you can do bayesian analyses in some cases thousands of times faster than Stan etc). ~~~ mumblemumble You don't need to sell me on Clojure being a nicer foundation than Python in most respects, but the thing I keep running afoul of when doing data science on any JVM language the performance hit from all the copying it takes to pump data back and forth across JNI. The showdown that's more interesting to me is Clojure vs Julia, which is very nearly an acceptable Lisp, and also has a nicer interface to C libraries. And, IIRC, also the ability to interface directly with C++ libraries, without having to first wrap them in a C-compatible interface. ~~~ dragandj There is no copying back and forth across JNI, thus no particular performance hit there (in Uncomplicate libraries). ~~~ mumblemumble Well, there wouldn't be once data is already copied into Uncomplicate data structures. But surely you can't just pass a pointer to the guts of a Java array, and do have to copy data back and forth to get it into Uncomplicate data structures in the first place, don't you? Otherwise, how does the C/Fortran/whatever code deal with the fact that the JVM's garbage collector reserves the right to move data around? ~~~ dragandj Why would you pass a pointer (or the contents it points to) to the guts of a Java array? Neanderhal does not require Java arrays (although it supports transfer to/from arrays for convenience). Please try Neanderthal; there are lots of getting starting resources. You can benchmark it yourself (very easy to do in Clojure) and see... I assure you that the only copy you would need is the same one you need in C, C++, or any language: the one from the source of your data (IO such as database, network, scv string etc). And even this is not required if you initialize the vectors randomly (which is often the case).	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Lazy Thinking: Modularity Always Works - aaronyy https://mondaynote.com/lazy-thinking-modularity-always-works-27257500a586 ====== jpeg_hero Truly one of the dumbest concepts I've ever heard. Calling it "lazy thinking" is probably generous. No wonder Larry is pissed by all the moonshots. This one didn't have a chance, and I am sure the team members were pretty satisfied with themselves. I am sad Goog killed off Fiber. I hope that taint of dumb project like Aria didn't contribute to its demise.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
BBC releases its computer history archive - dboreham http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/internet/entries/94265de9-a16a-4daa-b128-3bbe01e1b10c ====== piceas (1984) Electronic Office, Episode 6: Easy to Use? has a nice demo from Bell Labs showing an interactive map, navigation, and restaurant search. "There are many possibilities because you can imagine it being used, for example in a car, in connection with some kind of advanced mobile phone service in which you would actually call in from your car terminal and get directions, and you could even imagine that the computer was tracking the car in some way so it could tell you when to make your turns" \- Michael Lesk [https://computer-literacy- project.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio....](https://computer-literacy- project.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio.co.uk/6cfbf61582b1fd8a811cc02be0d24560) ~~~ open-source-ux From the same programme, Peter Keen from the London Business School has this to say about expert systems: "...Expert systems are really slightly dumb systems that exploit the speed and cheapness of computer chips...There are many expert systems in the literature which are nothing more than a series of fast if-then-else rules...you do that a couple of hundred thousand times it can look remarkably intelligent" It's well worth watching this little clip. I wonder if what he says is still true? [https://computer-literacy- project.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio....](https://computer-literacy- project.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio.co.uk/13d3f4b73e9a2830fecfdc9684805ddf) ------ jonhendry18 Cool. Episode of "Micro Live" with a brief demo of a Fairlight CMI Series III [https://computer-literacy- project.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio....](https://computer-literacy- project.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio.co.uk/b8a2ca1e800873c2cd8f38e5ed8bd5b4) Clip from Micro Live that visits Infocom during the development of text adventure "Spellbreaker". LISP mentioned in passing. [https://computer-literacy- project.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio....](https://computer-literacy- project.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio.co.uk/a2e1d6d7656c5505bd3dc74a8ef8d392) 2011 documentary on Steve Jobs: "Billion Dollar Hippy": [https://computer-literacy- project.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio....](https://computer-literacy- project.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio.co.uk/a54d226a1c0d98b7d93f4859efa34421) ~~~ jdietrich My pick from the archive is "Now the Chips are Down", an eerily prescient 1978 documentary about what was then called the "silicon chip revolution". [https://computer-literacy- project.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio....](https://computer-literacy- project.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio.co.uk/d39fe5ab963b83309447394e46b6ad99) ~~~ markb139 A 12 year old me watched this when it was broadcast. I knew after seeing the programme what I wanted do for a career. 40 years later I'm a software engineer - my teachers at school would be most suprised :) ------ rasur Mildly disappointed that there's no listing of "The Net" in there. I help created some shared virtual worlds for the series circa '96 which involved the participation of members of the public in the 6 spaces we created. Hell, there was even a short clip of myself and (later to become my wife in reality) one of the TV production company members getting married in VR, aired on BBC TV. Ah well. The team I was part of did it all again the year after, for Channel 4 TV (Renegade TV "Heaven & Hell"). Good times. Glad to see the BBC computing resources from over the years offered again - takes me back to my teens, exploring this new world of (ha!) fantastic opportunities. ~~~ UncleSlacky I remember knackering the pause function on my video recorder trying to read the "blipvert" style items at the end of each programme. ~~~ twic Infoblasts! Blipverts are quite a lot worse for you: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJP- Ilw_xaY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJP-Ilw_xaY) ------ codeulike "Acorn have been evaluating their own 32-bit RISC processor called ARM ..." December 1987 [https://computer-literacy- project.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio....](https://computer-literacy- project.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio.co.uk/5c1a13c434e15b3b8f3714239151cbb1) Little did we know how important Steve Furber and Sophie Wilson's chip was going to be. ------ ggm I was in the UK across much of this time, and I was a person in computer science across all of that time. Somehow, I cannot identify with this as "my" story. I think it says much more about me than the BBC btw. I think this is a fantastic "oral/social history" thing to do. Its a slice of time. I think a lot of people (like me) who had access to sufficient mainframe power not to want to tinker at home on a PC didn't realize what they meant, for the future of computing! (I spent a brief period building a power supply for the Acorn Atom, which was a 6502 precursor to the BBC micro, and found it sufficiently painful after I managed to get some code working on it, I never really went back. I still have a C60 cassette of the basic code in kansas city standard whistles somewhere). The moment where CeeFax sent code out in the VBI was a huge signal. Oddly, much later on I tried to get some people interested in using the VBI timing to distribute a stratum-1 clock for nTP. ~~~ pjc50 > a lot of people (like me) who had access to sufficient mainframe power Yes, that can't have been a lof of people. The microcomputer movement was hugely influential to people who were children and teenagers at the time, since they were the ones able to spend lots of lightly supervised time trying things and learning at an impressionable age. The BBC has a good list of "origin stories" of founders who started on the BBC micro here: [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-15969065](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-15969065) ~~~ jacquesm I had both. At work VS/9 on a series 90 or a 4381 with a large number of people hanging off the back, at home a BBC Micro with two floppies (once I could afford them) and a 128K Solidisk. Between those three I couldn't wait to get home to get something done. The edit-compile-test cycle on those mainframes was so ridiculously long it would be a good day if you got three turnarounds, on a bad day you got none. Compared to seconds for my home stuff. Shortly after that I got an Atari 68K machine and that felt like unlocking God mode. Mainframes are powerful in the same way that tractors are powerful: you can do an awful lot of work if you have an awful lot of work. If you are just programming or learning then something smaller is far more effective, on top of that the lack of resources will teach you all you need to know about efficiency. ~~~ walshemj I recall at my fist job one of the engineers coming into out terminal room and logging onto an ICL mainframe at AWE and sighing when she saw 48 jobs in front of hers in the queue. ~~~ Zenst Ah yes, George OS and the ICL 29xx series, fun times. Had great fun with the SPV command, used that to code up a keylogger. Was able to pull up a spoof login screen on all the terminals using that and able to pass off input as commands and the end user would be none the wiser. Other great find was that back then discs were big and expensive and not as reliable, so they rotated the discs to even out the wear. They also didn't fully erase them and if you created a file, you had to specify to zero it as an option. This allowed you to create a file, dump the contents and read what was previously upon the discs. Now as the operator console would create a journal log of everything typed (including login and password - everything typed) and factoring in disc rotation, then it was possible as a user to create files upon what was a disc previously used for console journal logging and read the contents. This yielded the username and password of the system admin at college and even today recall that wonderful admin/5588 username and password. Fun times indeed. ------ codeulike About the July 1984 Data Protection Act [https://computer-literacy- project.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio....](https://computer-literacy- project.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio.co.uk/56dcbbdeb792a0ddc3c64cb9a88d2b65) "The increasing ease with which personal details can be obtained has worried groups concerned with civil liberties" "Holding personal data on your computer will probably mean sending form E22 to this address in Cheshire ..." ------ timthorn They've had a handful of episodes available for a while in their (archived!) archive site - but great to see the whole collection available. The aforementioned site also has other greats such as some Tomorrow's World, Horizon - and the Great Egg Race. Well worth a few hours: [http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/collections.shtml](http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/collections.shtml) ------ dboreham Like going in a time machine! For example this show was I believe responsible for the founding* of Inmos, where I worked in the 1980s : [https://computer-literacy- project.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio....](https://computer-literacy- project.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio.co.uk/d39fe5ab963b83309447394e46b6ad99) *More accurately : the _funding_ of.. ------ voltagex_ Heh, looks like BBC got some help from the public - this one's got to be a capture from a home VHS. [https://computer-literacy- project.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio....](https://computer-literacy- project.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio.co.uk/d7e7014f662a9e2703162d6d229f867e) ~~~ pbhjpbhj Hope they prosecuted those horrible data thieves! /s ------ slipstream- I downloaded all the floppy images from this archive, and found some interesting (from a historical perspective) documents on some of them. Lists of computing equipment owned by the BBC in 1987, letters responding to what appears to be viewers who wrote in with questions, that sort of thing. ------ angrygoat The BBC micro played a huge role in my childhood - my family's Model B was the first computer I used. Dad had a subscription to 'Beebug', a great magazine which came with code listings and explanations of how the code worked. It's all online these days (I think Dad probably still has boxes and boxes of the originals somewhere.) Some good memories for other old beeb folks like me: [http://8bs.com/beebugmags.htm](http://8bs.com/beebugmags.htm) ------ codeulike SpecDrum, the spectrum drum machine! [https://computer-literacy- project.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio....](https://computer-literacy- project.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio.co.uk/46de54dc37f32efb835a37c3b0c84e80) "£29.95, and at the moment its only available from Boots" ------ royjacobs This is really cool! I've always been impressed by the fact that the original literacy project was undertaken at all, but this now also extends to the preservation effort! Edit: Oh wow, some of the older programs (shot on film) are even scanned in HD. This is seriously impressive. ------ dang We changed the URL from [https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-44628869](https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-44628869). Both articles are worth reading but the current one has more juicy detail. ------ rambojazz Is this material still under copyright or is it in the public domain? ~~~ jonhendry18 Almost certainly under copyright. ~~~ pbhjpbhj I wonder what the situation is of a programme, produced by a now extinct company, that was videoed by a viewer from a BBC TV broadcast. The law in the UK allows for time-shifting only -- no format shifting nor archiving, no repeat watching (!) -- so the preservation by an ordinary viewer would have been unlawful, the use by the BBC couldn't be warranted. The law would demand the destruction (without viewing) of the copy. There is apparently now orphaned work legislation in UK ([https://www.gov.uk/guidance/exceptions-to- copyright](https://www.gov.uk/guidance/exceptions-to-copyright)), but this doesn't seem to apply, this would definitely be an unlawful copy. ~~~ pjc50 The BBC are presumably the original copyright holder, or licensee. Edit: also remember that almost all of this is civil law rather than criminal law; if there's no original copyright holder to initiate an action then nothing happens. ~~~ pbhjpbhj The BBC would have been a licensee, but I can't see how without being assignee or creator you could use an unlawful copy. Orphaned work legislation appears to relate only to copies that are (apparently) lawfully created but for whom the copyright holder can't be traced; and it's notable that it seems orphaned works can't be used commercially in UK. Yes, it's tortuous, but that doesn't mean it's lawful if the creators don't know of the tortfeasance. The criminality of copyright in UK is a mystery to me though. The BBC have benefitted, as have the public, several times from individual archiving. It would be great if they'd take a stand for including it in fair dealing. ------ onion-soup yet still uses unencrypted hosting of their website	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Linus Torvalds Switches to AMD Ryzen Threadripper After 15 Years of Using Intel - caution http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Torvalds-Threadripper ====== kristianp Dup of [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23295975](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23295975) ------ dijit Torvalds is famously "anti"-loyal. He's a pragmatist of the highest order, and since the threadripper is going to be better at compiling fast I can see the appeal so that's not the news here. Two things stick out though: 1) He has said repeatedly that noise is the largest inhibitor of having a powerful computer, he doesn't like fan noise and I don't know if you can go fanless with a Threadripper. 2) Hopefully this means the AMD Zen architecture runs even better with Linux, I'm sure that will help the EPYC Rome series, which, in google cloud, are much more powerful than the intel based VMs. ~~~ wtallis Fanless is almost never the right choice if you want a quiet desktop or workstation. A large heatsink with a big slow fan that's _inaudible_ even though it's not actually _silent_ is the way to go. Actually fanless computers tend to only make sense for really compact form factors or industrial PCs in dusty environments. ~~~ rcarmo I have been seriously considering building one of these: [https://fabiensanglard.net/the_beautiful_machine/index.html](https://fabiensanglard.net/the_beautiful_machine/index.html) The appeal of having _zero_ noise on my desk is climbing along with pre-summer heat as my gear starts blowing even more air around... ~~~ LargoLasskhyfv Yah, looks nice, but also infeasible for the TDP of a Threadripper. Maybe go for something like [https://www.quietpc.com/reserator1-v2](https://www.quietpc.com/reserator1-v2) ? edit: I know it's discontinued, but that's what came into my mind.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Why Are Pigeons’ Feet So Fucked Up? - molteanu https://www.thestranger.com/seattle/why-are-pigeons-feet-so-fucked-up/Content?oid=17556477 ====== audiometry Huh so the conclusion is strangulation by string and thread is the answer???	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Developers furious over App Store “Line Cutting” - nickb http://macenstein.com/default/archives/1494 ====== astrec So they trim non-alphanumeric chars - how long before we see _AAAJirbo Break_. They should disable alphanumeric sorting and instead sort by date (newest), rating (popular) etc. Good faceted navigation would likely remove the desire to sort by name. ~~~ cstejerean You're right, little reason to sort by name. I can use search to locate an app if I know the name, and when I'm just browsing sorting by popularity or reviews would be more helpful. On the other hand when I see "!! asdfasdf" and "AAAasdfasdf" I know it's likely a terrible app so I don't even have to bother checking it out. ------ witten Reminds me of game companies that distributed their shareware games with similar tactics via BBSs. You can even see vestigial evidence of this today. Check out the Apogee / 3D Realms download page (<http://www.3drealms.com/downloads.html>), and note the non-insignificant number of filenames that start with the number 1. This caused the files to sort first on most BBSs. ------ nickb Pretty shady company... no about us page, no corporate info, no address on the contact page, no privacy policy, no terms of service and their WHOIS entry is anonymized by Domains by Proxy. ------ henning It's time for Apple to exercise their proprietary software/benevolent dictator/gatekeeper abilities and drop all this shit like a bad habit. ------ Hexstream I'd sink them to the bottom of the list, no less. As well as fixing the problem, of course. ------ Tichy Is that the fantastic marketing Apple promised for iPhone applications - show them in an alphabetically sorted list? ------ tocomment By the way, can I sign up and make an iPhone app now, or is there still a waiting list and approval process? ~~~ silencio there's still an approval process for most steps, but it seems now most people who've applied are getting acceptance into the program itself. now, getting your app into the app store and upgrading your apps is a slightly different process, and it looks like there's a huge backlog there :( ~~~ tocomment If I just want to write a program for my own iPhone, do I still have to get them to put it in the store, just for me to be able to install it on my phone? ~~~ silencio no, there's something called ad hoc distribution that lets you run your app on up to 100 phones on the standard program...I think more if you purchase enterprise. It doesn't have to be on the store for you to install it on your phone. But you do indeed need to be part of the program. ------ pskomoroch Amazon does the same thing with Mechanical Turk Qualification Tests (Only has A-Z sorting): [http://www.mturk.com/mturk/findquals?requestable=false&e...](http://www.mturk.com/mturk/findquals?requestable=false&earned=false) ------ devicenull This has been a problem in every online game with a serverlist that I know of.. It's quite funny as it's gotten extreme enough that some of the names are just spaces. ------ ALee Does anyone know if this was a problem for Facebook when the apps were released, or did it not matter because everything was recommended by your friends anyway? ------ tstegart I think it's been fixed, at least with respect to spaces. I checked, and many of their applications don't come up as having spaces anymore. ------ davidu Apple will fix this. ------ tlrobinson appName.trim() or equivalent. ------ trezor I say Apple has done a wonderful job doing input validation on their AppStore data right here. I wonder if you can name your Application as a SQL injection as well.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Why is Clojure so slow? - Mitt http://martinsprogrammingblog.blogspot.de/2012/02/why-is-clojure-so-slow.html ====== lukev Clojure has a slow _startup time_. It is not in itself slow. It's important to get these distinctions right! Some people, unfortunately, form impressions from headlines and in this case it's extremely inaccurate. If you read the article you'll get the truth - there are startup time problems causing issues with using Clojure for command-line programs. That's much less damning overall than "Clojure is slow." ~~~ debacle You should have read the entire article: > How fast is Clojure at running your code once it finally has got going? ... > Clojure is on average 4x slower than Java and 2x slower than Scala. That's pretty freaking slow. ~~~ lukev And about twice as fast as Erlang, 5x faster than Ruby, Python or PHP and 10x faster than Perl.[1] It's all relative. [1] [http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/which-programming- lan...](http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/which-programming-languages- are-fastest.php) ~~~ gizzlon While interesting, those benchmarks are only useful if you implement something remotely similar to the actual benchmarks. Just glazing over them, they seem to be "unfairly" targeted at low-level languages. That said, they are fun to look at. I just had a wtf-moment looking at this: [http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/performance.php?test=n...](http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/performance.php?test=nbody) ~20 seconds vs ~20 minutes?? ~~~ Jach This sums up my feelings for the benchmarks: [http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?test=fa...](http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?test=fannkuchredux&lang=all) Note that the "alternative" Lisp SBCL and Java 7 programs both outperform Fortran. Of course I agree with you on wtf-moments. WTF makes Ruby take an hour, and SBCL take 10 seconds? That's two orders of magnitude! But no matter, I imagine a more clever Ruby programmer could reduce that, or just call out to a native library. ~~~ igouy >>Note that the "alternative" ...<< A program that simply switched according the command line arg and then printed: 3968050 Pfannkuchen(12) = 65 :would also out perform :-) >>I imagine a more clever Ruby programmer could reduce that...<< Is "a more clever Ruby programmer" some kind of equivalent to "a sufficiently smart compiler"? :-) >>or just call out to a native library<< When is a Ruby program fast? When it's written in C ;-) ~~~ Jach > A program that simply switched according the command line arg and then > printed… Of course making programs do less can improve speed, and a great way of doing that is compile-time computation via macros! You can finish the program before it's even run. > Is "a more clever Ruby programmer" some kind of equivalent to "a > sufficiently smart compiler"? No, since we assume human intelligence here. :P As the Graphics Programming Black Book puts it in the Chapter 1 title, "The Best Optimizer is between Your Ears". > When is a Ruby program fast? When it's written in C ;-) I'm going to use this one. ~~~ igouy I've spent enough time asking for programs for the benchmarks game in Ruby forums, to start to doubt whether the "more clever Ruby programmer" will ever come forward ;-) Maybe "a more clever Ruby programmer" always drops-down to C? Maybe there's only _a more clever Rails programmer_ :-) ------ gcv To Clojure-curious people: please ignore this article. It is misinformed. Others on this thread have pointed out that the Alioth benchmark takes startup time into account. Yes, this imposes a startup penalty on Clojure. More importantly, the implementations of each individual benchmark vary significantly in performance quality. High-performance Clojure requires a couple of tricks in type hinting, using unchecked arithmetic, and preferring native Java arrays. I looked at a couple of the benchmarks, and the mandelbrot example uses those tricks. Notice the performance there: [http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64/performance.php?test=m...](http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64/performance.php?test=mandelbrot) Notice that Java 7 and gcc run at about the same speed, and Clojure is only about 2.2x slower (than C). Scala is about 1.9x slower (than C). gcc is about 1.5x slower than Intel Fortran. To make the benchmark more fair: (1) all timings should disregard startup time; and (2) all JVM languages should have the opportunity to run the benchmark a few thousand times before timing it. Otherwise, it measures JVM startup time, and then it measures how long it takes the JIT to achieve maximum optimization. By comparison, the C and Fortran code runs at full speed almost out of the gate. All-in-all, considering that Clojure is an extremely high-level language I consider its performance impressive [1]. Yes, the inner loops need to be coded in a slightly un-idiomatic manner, but you can do all this in the comfort of your REPL, which makes the process of making optimizations reasonably painless. [1] Don't forget to scroll down the mandelbrot results and look at the stellar performance of other popular high-level languages. ~~~ igouy >>"Otherwise, it measures JVM startup time, and then it measures how long it takes the JIT to achieve maximum optimization."<< Please take that Clojure mandelbrot program, make repeated timing measurements without restarting the JVM and then report how those times compare to cold start on your computer. The mean "warmed" times for the Java mandelbrot program were actually _slower_ than the reported cold start time for the same program. <http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/help.php#java> ~~~ gcv Sure thing. I made it run for 4000 cycles twice. The first (cold) run took 2831.323 ms, and the warmed-up run took 2571.397 ms. About 10% faster. Judging by the invocation noted at the bottom of [http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64/program.php?test=mande...](http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64/program.php?test=mandelbrot&lang=clojure&id=5), the comments about Java in the FAQ do not apply to the Clojure code. The benchmark seems to have been invoked straight from the command line. ~~~ igouy Cool! Now let's check the basics: \- 2831.323 ms for what workload? The benchmarks game measurements are made at 3 different workloads; but the times that matter are those for the largest workload, in this case N=16,000. So please show the times for N=16,000. \- the benchmarks game measurements are made with output redirected to /dev/null \- both the clojure and java programs are invoked straight from the command line, and include start-up. The Help page provides additional "warmed" measurements for the fastest Java programs, for comparison - because sometimes the JVM startup costs are larger in the mind than they are when measured :-) ~~~ gcv Well certainly, in a real-world program which runs for long periods analyzing tons of data, JVM startup costs and JIT costs amount to nothing, as they are paid in the first few seconds. But we are talking about short, synthetic benchmarks here. I ran mandelbrot for 4000 cycles, just invoking the function which does the work twice and wrapping each call in Clojure's (time ...) form. This all happened in an AOT-compiled .class file, which guaranteed a cold start. For what it's worth, I didn't bother tuning the GC or any other JVM parameters — I suspect I could have made it run a bit faster by manipulating generation sizes. ~~~ igouy >>I ran mandelbrot for 4000 cycles<< That reduced workload only runs the program for 1/10th the time of the workload shown on the benchmarks game website. Run the program for N=16,000 and see that "JVM startup costs and JIT costs amount to nothing" even for these "short, synthetic benchmarks". (Incidentally, the "usual" cold start measurement shown on the website is the best of 6.) ------ yason Don't compare Clojure to C, comparing it to Python or Ruby makes more sense because they're all high-level dynamic languages. Sure Clojure runs on the compiling JVM but that doesn't put it into another category; you can also JIT compile Python in a few ways. If we can make working websites and even games in Python, we can make them in Clojure too. What kills Clojure for small scripts and not-long-running applications is the startup time and that can mostly be attributed to JVM. Also, the memory footprint of a JVM process tends to grow a lot over time. I see Clojure rising above specific platforms, though. JVM is in a slow death spiral. CLR might have some traction on Windows. If Python got it platform resettled on something more sophisticated than CPython, that might be a good ecosystem for Clojure. ~~~ adrianhoward _Don't compare Clojure to C, comparing it to Python or Ruby makes more sense because they're all high-level dynamic languages_ For me the more obvious comparison would be with other Lisps. Which, back in the dim past when I was using 'em, were often _damn_ fast. ~~~ brlewis If you're looking for a fast JVM-based Lisp the obvious choice would be Kawa Scheme: <http://per.bothner.com/blog/2010/Kawa-in-shootout/> But as fogus said, speed is only one piece of the puzzle. <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4223562> ------ rbanffy How slow is slow? If it takes me 3 months to deliver a given program in Clojure and 6 to deliver its Java equivalent, the Clojure one already has 3 months of lead. Assuming the Java one is twice as fast, it'll take 45 days to catch up. Development time is expensive, computers are cheap and get twice as fast every year or so. While a long startup time is annoying, it can certainly be optimized out if someone focuses enough attention to the low level aspects of the runtime. ~~~ spacemanaki I get what you're saying, and you're sort of right, but it's still interesting to figure out _why_ that startup time is so slow, or what other things slow it down. That talk from Daniel Solano Gómez about Clojure on Android was pretty interesting in that regard. I would want to encourage that kind of investigation, although this blogpost has a terrifically flamebait title. > Development time is expensive, computers are cheap and get twice as fast > every year or so. It's a bit funny that you're citing Moore's law when Clojure is specifically designed to overcome its breakdown and get out ahead of that lagging curve. (Paraphrasing an early talk from Rich Hickey: "The hardware guys are _punting_!!") You can turn that right around as fuel for your original point, that Clojure and it's approach to concurrency buys you tons of developer productivity, compared to whacking about in the weeds with Java. I totally agree there, those higher level features are valuable and worth something, but they do not cost nothing. ~~~ rbanffy single thread performance isn't increasing that quickly, but machines like the Xeon Phy should be rather sweet for highly threaded (or processed) apps. Also, if we can make GPUs run Java bytecode, we would unlock a whole lot of GFLOPS that are just pushing pixels now. ------ kibwen _"When using the ClojureScript compiler on a hello word example with advanced optimisation, we end up with some 100kb of Javascript. [...] The Google Closure compiler certainly helps here by removing lots of unused code, and the resulting Javascript file is indeed free from all docstrings etc."_ So does the ClojureScript compiler basically just embed a Clojure interpreter in every file? I'd be interested to see the code prior to optimization. ~~~ fogus No, ClojureScript does not interpret ClojureScript at runtime. The Clojure forms are compiled down to JavaScript directly. More info at [http://blog.fogus.me/2011/07/21/compiling-clojure-to- javascr...](http://blog.fogus.me/2011/07/21/compiling-clojure-to-javascript- pt1/) ~~~ kibwen I wonder if his figure is simply mistaken, then. Because 100 _kilobytes_ is a heck of a lot of code for a hello world. The compiled representations in your blog post seem far more reasonable. ~~~ fogus 100K is a lot of code for a Hello World, so don't use ClojureScript to write Hello World apps. The cool part is that building a largish app will not necessarily grow the output JS. ~~~ kibwen Sure thing, but my curiosity still stands. :) If you're using Closure Compiler to perform dead code elimination (100kb is the "heavily optimized" number, as far as I can tell), how is it that `console.log('hello, world!');` requires 100kb of essential (non-eliminatable) scaffolding? ------ m_for_monkey Hello World execution time benchmark with other languages: [http://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/chicken- users/2011-03/m...](http://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/chicken- users/2011-03/msg00070.html) [http://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/chicken- users/2011-03/m...](http://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/chicken- users/2011-03/msg00090.html) <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2698579> ------ martintrojer Have a look at Rich Hickey's keynote presentation from Conj2011; <http://blip.tv/clojure/rich-hickey-keynote-5970064> He pretty much starts off by talking about making Clojure "leaner", faster at starting up etc. He mentions stuff like a "production" jar with less metadata, hoisted evaluator and even some kind of tree shaking ala ProGuard. ------ ivanb If Clojure could dump the Lisp image like SBCL's save-lisp-and-die function, the startup time would be greatly reduced. I wonder if JVM itself can dump its current state and then restore execution. Another approach to the problem would be similar to FastCGI: keep one Clojure server process running and execute scripts on it. ~~~ densh > If Clojure could dump the Lisp image like SBCL's save-lisp-and-die function, > the startup time would be greatly reduced. I wonder if JVM itself can dump > its current state and then restore execution. It's still hard to understand why aren't Oracle working on something like that. It's not as if they don't care about desktop at all -- JavaFX is going to be part of Java8 and they are even working on a new packaging tool-chain for it. JVM's start-up time and inability to allocate memory when needed (as compared to up-front way it's done now) are the major reasons why Java/JVM is (still) a bad solution for desktop and cli applications. ~~~ pjmlp There is something like that as internal research project, but never made into the mainstream JVM. [http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/Programming/...](http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/Programming/mvm/) ~~~ cmkrnl Interesting - that paper talks about isolates, which are implemented in Dart. Dart core team members used to work on HotSpot and other Java tech (CLDC). ------ bitcracker It's an implementation problem of Java. I never understood why the JVM folks didn't get along to develop a JIT cache. That means the first time I start a Java program it would run normally slow. But from the second run on it would use the native cache and run immediately fast with native performance. That would eliminate many performance problems of Java. I know that there already is a solution which uses a Java server to serve the application as client which reduces the startup time but this is not very convenient to use. The slowness of Clojure is a typical problem of all languages which are based on JVM. Racket Scheme, for instance, which is a Lisp like language but NOT based on JVM, needs just 0.062s to print "Hello World" (compiled) on my system. ~~~ ww520 Did you read the article? The majority of the Clojure startup time is spent on initializing the Clojure runtime. "spends 95% of the startup-time loading the clojure.core namespace (the clojure.lang.RT class in particular) and filling out all the metadata/docstrings etc for the methods. This process stresses the GC quite a bit, some 130k objects are allocated and 90k free-d during multiple invokes of the GC (3-6 times), the building up of meta data is one big source of this massive object churn." ~~~ bitcracker > The majority of the Clojure startup time is spent on initializing the > Clojure runtime. That's correct but even without this startup time Clojure is significantly slower than other functional languages. Look at SBCL and Racket in [http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/which-programming- lang...](http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/which-programming-languages- are-fastest.php) That doesn't mean that I don't like Clojure. I am even considering it for a business project. But Clojure is definitely unsuitable for small apps (shell scripts etc.) Btw the benchmark listing doesn't take LuaJIT into account. This JIT is the fastest I have ever encountered, way ahead of JVM regarding startup time. ------ fshen Clojure startup time is slow. AOT helps a little. <http://clojure.org/compilation> Clojure runs quite fast, in my experience. I have written an web app <http://rssminer.net>, in Clojure (and some Java). On a small VPS(512M RAM, 1 core CPU), It can handle about 300 request per second, On my desktop, about 2000 req/s. Which is not slow, at least. The persistent data structures Clojure use is fast too. I did some test a long ago, It's roughly the same speed as Java collections. ------ djhworld I remember seeing somewhere that someone looked into tackling the problem of the startup time by stripping the clojure core libs of unessential metadata like docstrings etc I'm not sure if they went through with it though ~~~ lispm Why would one do that if that's slow and an image can't be saved? One does not need to have docstrings in the running Lisp. The typical solution to this problem is to have a file with docstrings, an index and look up the docstring for some symbol from the file when needed. ------ Chrix The Clojure's start-up is slow because the source files are compiled. But once your program is launched, its perfs are correct and very close to Java. About the immutable data structure, don't forget each method doesn't return a copy of the data. It's more clever using changes detection. You can read a lot of information about this part of Clojure in the book "Practical Clojure". I'm reading it and I'm learning some stuffs about Clojure. To conclude, Clojure is fine for "long" program running. ~~~ seanmcdirmid As others have stated, the OP was comparing run time separately from startup time, closure was found only to be about 4 times slower than java after startup costs are a storied away, which is quite believable given the benchmarks. For most programs that aren't compute intensive, you won't notice a penalty, but the same is true with ruby or python. ------ Mitt What I would like to see is a `defconstant` macro, which introduces a constant that can not be changed anymore without restarting the JVM. (def x 1) ; x = 1 (def x 2) ; x = 2 now (defconstant y 1) ; y = 1 (defconstant y 2) ; Exception Also a way of fixing functions would be good, so that no lookup is required. Calling such a fixed function has no overhead, it would be a direct call. ~~~ simonb Well, there is defonce [[http://clojure.github.com/clojure/branch- master/clojure.core...](http://clojure.github.com/clojure/branch- master/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/defonce)] As for function lookup, I recommend reading this thread: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2928285> Also, vars are by default static (but can be made dynamic with ^:dynamic). ~~~ Mitt `defonce` unfortunately doesn’t help. Without restarting the JVM I can overwrite that var. And that is okay, because defonce is just a protection mechanism, to not delete data when a namespace is repeatedly reloaded. This reloading occurs 99% at development time. Useful tool. But I would like to have real constants. A final class with a static final field (and potentially type information), or something like that. This would give the optimal lookup time, as the JVM would have the direct address. When I (defonce x 1) I can still (def x 2), without restarting the JVM. I want this to not be possible with a defconstant. ------ EternalFury I don't know if I should laugh or cry. Let's just say rock stars are not engineers.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Surveying 1000 APIs - Think APIs are for Tech Startups Only? Think Again - njyx http://www.3scale.net/2012/06/surveying-1000-apis-think-apis-are-for-startups-only-think-again/ ====== hpique The same author recently presented at Gluecon about the future of APIs. The presentation can be found here and is an interesting read: [http://blog.programmableweb.com/2012/06/05/reaching-a- millio...](http://blog.programmableweb.com/2012/06/05/reaching-a-million-apis- and-what-to-do-when-we-get-there/) ------ plunchete Is great to see a lot of companies releasing APIs but if even better as a developer start a project and being able to easily use external services and even integrate your app with bigger services. Imagine creating an e-commerce an integrating your catalog with stuff from macys, amazon, etc. ~~~ njyx I think this will end up happening - Amazon already lets you suck out it's catalogue and push affiliate sales back to it. You could likely build very sophisticated niche virtual retail sites if all the bricks and motar data was there also. Interestingly in the survey the number of ecommerce APIs was actually a lot lower than we thought it would be. This might be a blip in this "generation" of APIs, or that it's simply hard to do still. ~~~ plunchete Amazon has a great vision, others are just afraid about people "stealing" their content. Probably companies need to be educated in this area ~~~ njyx I guess the model needs to be right so everybody along the way gets paid, then people may step up. ------ sgt101 I think that Twitter has absorbed some of the long tail - it's pretty easy to use a twitter account as a proxy for read and write commands for a low scale device or web site, of course you can't make it a chargeable interaction! ~~~ njyx Pretty interesting way to think of twitter - kind of a message bus. ~~~ apievangelist Its an information network for humans and otherwise. Its simplicity + #hashtags makes work well for distributed messaging. ------ dzekyl Glad to see the takeup of APIs by the public sector. Will be interesting to watch whether emerging API management solutions can help the open data movement by enabling smarter ways of accessing government data. ~~~ njyx The US definitely seems to be leading here - makes more sense to open data than to try to provide more and more different UIs that people need (iPhone, Android, ...). Of the APIs on programmable web in that period almost all were US, a couple were UK and a couple we Canadian. Further back in time there are other countries also though - and a lot of the Scientific APIs were European. ------ Oulrij Very interesting analysis and segmentation of APIs! I am just wondering which factor has been so the most prominent for not having the long tail represented (or badly)? ------ fidnie "The long tail is still missing in action" - plug&play arriving onto the API scene is going to change that fast. ~~~ sgrove What is plug&play? Is it a concept similar to Microsoft's driver system, or is it a startup, or is it a standard for API designers? ~~~ njyx I'd say platforms like stackmob which create mobile APIs + wordpress, drupal etc. which make it easy to add an API to those + then platforms like 3scale, mashery etc. which help manage access. ------ chesh We need more hard data like this on the API ecosystem. ProgrammbleWeb is a great source. ~~~ apievangelist agreed there is not enough metrics on what is out there, where the opportunities are? I know John and the team @ PW is working hard to track on all of this, but its good to see more detail get pulled from someone external. If anyone else wants to help slice and dice and make sense of it all, ProgrammableWeb has an API.... ~~~ njyx Yep - here: <http://www.programmableweb.com/api/programmableweb> ------ terpin 1000APIs is a small sample size. ~~~ njyx Yes, agreed - but the total number of APIs listed is a little over 6000, so it's a reasonable sample to some extent. There are a lot more APIs out there which aren't public / listed - so it's hard to account for those. ------ constion97 Great analisys!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Iceland prepares for [possible] second, more devastating volcanic eruption - benpbenp http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7070239.ece ====== kgrin I was just there a few weeks ago, and the locals were expecting an eruption in the not too distant future (months or years); they were talking about evacuation plans, gathering points and such. ------ avar The eruption is small now but that this could become serious isn't an overstatement. I can't recall the details now but I've reviewed the evacuation plan (but can't find it now) used for the area. Once Mýrdalsjökull starts erupting it's only a matter of hours before the meltwater starts flooding across the lowlands. It'll be a glacial mudflow many meters high initially and the water/mud should be at around 1 meter at Hvolsvöllur ~40 kilometers away. Earlier Hekla eruptions have caused global cooling for a few years. Wikipedia has more information on it. ------ jokull Hyperbole ~~~ arihelgason Now, yes. But based on Hekla's history there's real danger.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Why Google Doesn’t Have a Research Lab - sherjilozair http://www.technologyreview.com/news/525506/why-google-doesnt-have-a-research-lab/ ====== awalton Google doesn't need a designated "lab space" because Google _is_ a laboratory. It might be different if Google were a chemical engineering company, but it's not. It's a software engineering company. Anywhere they've got computer scientists, whiteboards and computers is a lab. And that's basically every building at Google. ~~~ pavanky You can not say that is always true. Microsoft is a software engineering company as well, but they do have a dedicated R&D team and offices. ~~~ yeukhon Just because MS has a separated division doesn't mean Google has to follow. A lot of the google come out as both product and paper. That's already a research lab. Why do we bother to discuss this in the first place? I really don't see any difference in having a dedicated research lab and a place where research and products are mixed together, true a lot of employees at google don't publish papers and they do boring works like fixing bugs. ~~~ seanmcdirmid MS didn't start that trend. Many companies used to have research divisions, large ones even...HP, Xerox, DEC, intel, Sun, IBM, even Apple had something. That is almost gone or rapidly shrinking... ~~~ yeukhon I don't mean to disrespect these companies, but they are much older than Google. It seems like from the sart Google didn't care about the division. They knew they always have some "research" going on. Maybe founders' background was the founding culture. ------ marincounty Working at Google sounds like a Fun time, where you can explore your inner child--and learn how to make money on ads. I know all the Google employees are geniuses, but a genius without the right guidance(Scientitists--who could care less about advertising, just the scientific method) might end up just doing what Google rewards them for--making money. I applaud Google for letting us use their API's, but I feel restrictions are coming, along with fees. I'm not a huge fan of google for one reason; they ruined my Privacy. By the way, you can get off Google street view by telling them you have security concerns--at least for now. The minute DuckDuckGo gets a little better--bye to my back stabbing friend--Google. And yes those Google glasses will make some people angry(in kid's speak--you just might get a drink thrown at you, and no--even if they start to make them look like EMO Glasses, some people don't like their picture taken without their permission.) ~~~ laumars Sadly the days of asking for permission are long gone. Every day we're recorded on dozens of CCTV camera, car dash-cams (and similar worn by bikers / cyclists), traffic cams, police severance cameras (in larger urban towns / cities) and so on. You can't walk into a single shop nor office without being recorded. you can't even talk a walk outside, nor a drive, without the chance of being recorded. I'm not saying it's right, but that is how it is these days. ~~~ lsiebert You can blur your face with LEDS if cameras are your major concern. Someone should make some stylish hats. ------ mathattack This is a big strategic question. Do you want researchers closer to the market, paid by the person whose P&L they could impact? Or further away, so they can think longer term? Other companies go through this a lot. Procter & Gamble used to have centralized research. To improve time to market, they decentralized research, and had them report to business unit heads. This was great for singles, but when they wanted more home runs and cross-category innovation, they decentralized again. One can look at Xerox PARC as the penultimate example of the dangers of isolated innovation labs. They created the technology that everyone else monetized. AT&T struggled with this somewhat too. ~~~ dwc Xerox PARC was not dangerous. The danger for Xerox was the different between seeing an opportunity for the future or a threat to their current business model. If PARC had never existed, the same things with minor differences would have happened some years later. ~~~ Retric The danger was not the invention it was wasting money without realizing the benefits. ~~~ mathattack Exactly. They invested in a future that other realized instead of them. Would it have happened anyways? Who knows, probably. Who was harmed? Their shareholders, and all the employees who eventually lost their jobs. ------ josefresco This is purely semantics: "Google’s research boss, Alfred Spector, has a small core team and no department or building to call his own." So no department but he has a "small core team" and presumably Alred and his "small core team" have offices? This is such a non-story...just PR fluff to make Google appear unique and more "integrated". Are we actually supposed to believe the "labs" at other tech giants are some sort of ivory tower that they never leave? ------ d3gamer There is one, it is right above Blaze cafe (1225 Charleston Rd). There's a huge sign by the visitor's area: "Google Research & Development". ------ scott_s A more in-depth look from the Communications of the ACM, by Alfred Spector, Peter Norvig and Slav Petrov, "Google's Hybrid Approach to Research": [http://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2012/7/151226-googles- hybrid-a...](http://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2012/7/151226-googles-hybrid- approach-to-research/fulltext) ------ jestinjoy1 Then why they have this: [http://research.google.com/](http://research.google.com/) ``Research at Google is unique. Because so much of what we do hasn't been done before, the lines between research and development are often very blurred. '' ~~~ SideburnsOfDoom > Research at Google is unique. Because so much of what we do hasn't been done > before... How is that any different from regular research? ------ NamTaf What's Google X if not a research lab? ~~~ hendzen A playground for extremely smart people they don't want their competitors to hire. ~~~ nostrademons X is still very much run by Sergey. On the more experimental projects (i.e. not Glass or self-driving cars) you have a fair amount of freedom to experiment, but if Sergey wants something to happen a certain way, it happens that way. (For that matter, the rest of the company isn't all that different: you have a fair amount of freedom to experiment, but if Larry wants something to happen a certain way, it happens that way.) ~~~ yuhong BTW, I sent you an email about meeting Larry/Sergey a while ago. I just added rachelbythebay to the list too. ------ z3phyr Off topic: Can anyone list ongoing software based research projects, that are critically interesting, preferably in the sphere of compiler design, low level system software or high performance computing? ~~~ yeukhon Off topic: Rust from Mozilla is provably the first thing I think of outside of Google that matches the compiler part. ------ romanrage Well, I think Google should have to make his research lab..Google’s research lab, Alfred Spector, has a small core team and no department or building to call his own,according to MIT Technology Review.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Moonpig.com Vulnerability – Exposes customer data - PaulSec http://www.ifc0nfig.com/moonpig-vulnerability/ ====== knodi123 I've seen dumber. In my second real job, I was a book editor, but I noticed our web master literally had a file called accounts.js which held a static array of usernames, passwords, and billing information for all of our customers. I told him this was terrible security, and he said, literally, "You'd have to view source to even know passwords.js exists, and our source is pretty hard to read. I'm not worried." I took all the info to our CEO and got him demoted to server maintenance guy, on the spot, and I took over his job. He later gloated that my store was much slower than his, since he downloaded our entire database as JS flat files and did absolutely everything client-side except payment processing and order fulfillment. I pointed out that my store didn't require 10 megabytes of download for the first page view, plus I had industry-standard security. He was in even more trouble a couple of weeks after that, because some russian hackers pwned our server so bad that we had to drive to the colo and replace it with a new piece of hardware. I've got a dozen stories about this guy, he's a hoot. Okay, last story, I promise; he's allergic to electronics power supplies, so he was the only employee who got to work from home (where he kept his CPU in a separate room from his keyboard and monitor). ~~~ wiuiu "I took all the info to our CEO and got him demoted to server maintenance guy, on the spot, and I took over his job" WOW. You are a terrible human being. ~~~ __david__ > WOW. You are a terrible human being. Yes, heaven forbid someone qualified run their IT dept. What's he supposed to do? Sit around, idly hoping that someone else notices the incompetence? I think OP made the right move. To me it sounds like the guy should have been fired rather than demoted. ~~~ wiuiu really David ? Come on. How many times you made mistake ? Were you demoted and/or fired for mistake ? Now, let's not argue that you or all of us has not fucked up. In my 7 yrs. as engineer I have seen worse. However, that's not excuse to run to boss/CEO to demote someone and take over their job. Think about their family,kids before you do such act. If you defend such behavior for taking over job/demotion I seriously think there lies greater problem in tech community. Edit: HN is getting fucked up day by day. Any simple disagreement is greeted with downvotes. Carry on. ~~~ cleverjake "you are a terrible human being" is not really a simple disagreement. "That seems like a rude thing to do" would be. What you said was a personal attack, and a quite rude one at that. ~~~ dang > What you said was a personal attack, and a quite rude one at that. That's correct, and no doubt the reason for the downvotes. ~~~ waterlesscloud The downvotes here have grown way out of control. Simple disagreement with the majority opinion results in massive downvoting. I've even seen numerous posts that contain nothing but factual information that displeases the audience here be voted down into the gray. The post can be in the flattest, most neutral tone possible, and if it's not what people want to hear, down it goes. It's discouraging, and it's to a point where I no longer feel a desire to participate in this community. Frankly, I'm finding a number of subreddits to be more inviting and more interesting these days. I don't really see what can be done about it, if you even agree it's an issue, but I did want to make a point of letting you know about a problem I've seen grow worse over recent months. ~~~ DanBC Do you have links to examples? ------ Someone1234 I am a former customer of theirs (in the UK) and just contacted CS about this. I'm also looking into contacting the Information Commissioner's Office as this issue is still open and my personal information (and that of the people I send cards to) is still available to anyone who may want it. I'm pretty sure them ignoring this for a year is illegal as it involves personal information which their privacy policy didn't authorise them to publish. However I'll leave it to the ICO to make that determination. ~~~ justincormack My guess is that the ICO wont fine them very much as it did not include full credit card numbers. However they might up it for failings in process, lots of remedial measures etc. They might not even have PCI compliance issues alas. The management will argue that they knew nothing, although that is becoming less of a defence now. ~~~ iamtew Doesn't matter, if they're a UK based company they fall under the EU GDPR and can receive a fine of 5% of their worldwide turnover for any loss of personal data, blanked out credit card numbers or not. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Data_Protection_Regulat...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Data_Protection_Regulation#Summary) ~~~ peteretep There are more egregious examples of data protection violation here, and the fines look pretty small: [https://ico.org.uk/action-weve-taken/enforcement/](https://ico.org.uk/action- weve-taken/enforcement/) ------ ksk [http://www.conosco.com/case-studies/moonpig-outsourced- it/](http://www.conosco.com/case-studies/moonpig-outsourced-it/) >Protection against cyber attacks Wow... ~~~ breakingcups They've already removed it... ~~~ gbuckingham89 Google cached version: [http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:gkzZ7YK...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:gkzZ7YKoCQYJ:www.conosco.com/case- studies/moonpig-outsourced-it/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari) ------ driverdan To anyone thinking of enumerating the customer IDs to play with this, be very careful as it's illegal in the USA. That is exactly what weev was arrested and convicted for. ~~~ tripzilch > That is exactly what weev was arrested and convicted for. Please don't spread this misinformation, the USA justice system doesn't work (... like that). Weev was arrested for having a (very, _very_ ) loud mouth and pissing off the wrong, powerful people/businesses/corporations. If he'd have enumerated customer IDs for a smaller, lesser-known company such as Moonpig, reported it to the media like he did, without being all inflammatory and trollish[0] about it (or without having a history of allegedly doing such things in very different contexts), he'd have gotten a slap on the wrist, a fine, or something (if anything), but not been thrown into prison as he was. Your post makes it seem like Weev was convicted "for" doing something that is illegal in the USA and that the justice system worked "exactly" how it is supposed to, equally as it would apply to anyone. [0] stating this as a fact of how it happened, not judging him about this, at all ~~~ driverdan There is more context to his arrest but the actions and evidence supporting his conviction were as I described. ------ josephwegner Apparently they hired these guys to help with "protection against cyber attacks" [http://www.conosco.com/case-studies/moonpig-outsourced- it/](http://www.conosco.com/case-studies/moonpig-outsourced-it/) Awful... ~~~ dyadic It's worth pointing out that the case study is from 2007, there's a good chance that this company is no longer involved and likely wasn't involved in building the API for apps and the security on them. ~~~ bbcbasic In any case, once this is out, they will have to take the Moonpig case study from their site. ~~~ flurdy Yup that link is now 404 ------ dabeeeenster Surely this is bad enough to warrant criminal prosecution? Not sure if that's even possible in the UK but it ought to be...Shameful to have sat on that for over a year. Shameful. ~~~ steakejjs If this were the USA it would certainly be bad enough to warrant prosecution of the researcher. I am not familiar with laws in the UK, however. Keep in mind the similarities between this research and weev's research. This type of blatant insecurity definitely should be punished and I wish more policy makers both cared, and made the effort to understand the terminology behind phrases like "No authentication", "Plaintext", Etc. ~~~ meowface First of all, the company could definitely be sued for negligence in the US. Not sure if they could in the UK. Second, there are not that many similarities between this research and weev's research. In this case, the researcher created 2 accounts which he had control over, then read data from both of the accounts despite not authenticating to either of them. He did not access any other customer's information (or at least he's suggesting he didn't). Weev on the other hand scraped private information for over 100,000 customers and shared it with friends and reporters. Both technically violated the CFAA, but weev's offense is a much greater violation of customer privacy, while this researcher has not violated anyone's privacy. I still don't think weev should have gotten any jail time, but you're making an unfair comparison. ~~~ richardwhiuk Personally (and I know this is likely to be an unpopular sentiment on HN) I have very little sympathy for weev. He knowingly and deliberately attack a weakness he had found to scrape data, knowing that the access was unauthorized. I disagree that the data was in the public domain (although the Third Circuit disagrees) - just because something is accessible to the public doesn't mean it's in the public domain. Just because he wrote it up as a security researcher doesn't mean he should be immune for his actions - in fact in some ways it makes it worse because he did it knowing that he was unauthorized. He exposed the vulnerability to the press (so he didn't act in good faith regarding the disclosue) and he did so potentially for monetary gain (he claimed to be a member of a hacker group called “the organization,” making $10 million annually). I think one part of improving cyber security is prosecuting people who deliberately and maliciously hack into other systems who do so for either monetary gain or fame. I think this is especially the case whereby they don't act in good faith (e.g. providing proper disclosure). ~~~ geographomics I agree, and feel that the EFF made quite the strategic error in supporting Auernheimer's appeal. ~~~ teddyh “ _The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one’s time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all._ ” — H. L. Mencken ~~~ throwawaykf05 _> "For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed..."_ [Citation Needed] ------ bbcbasic Disgusting - this should be priority one for them to fix. I just changed all my details to ones from a fake name/address generator, then emailed moonpig to close my account. I will lose about 80 pence, but nevermind. I didn't see an option to get rid of my credit card details, so that may still be vulnerable, especially with the NameOnCard field in the api. ~~~ Nexxxeh I know my mum has a Moonpig account so I'm pissed about this, but I don't recall if I have an account. Recently, I have mostly been using CFHDocmail. It's 96p for a full colour A5 greeting card of your own design. (It's also cheaper to use them to send letters than it is for me to buy a stamp. They also do postcards, going as low as 38p delivered. Lots of mailmerge and API stuff available too iirc, but I've never used any of it.) Edit: They may use windowed envelopes for the cards, when I tested they didn't, but now I've been told they do. I've not sent one to myself since my original testing, and none of the recent recipients have said either way. I'll make a quick one and sent it to myself! ------ troels Wow. This is actually still wide open. This is really bad. Fun fact - you don't even have to send the basic aut header - it'll respond just fine without it. ------ AAtticus I'm sure the (outsourced) dev team will have a bad day tomorrow. This is just unacceptable. According to the blog post he first made contact in 2013! Bugs happen, but this is just bad design. ------ LukeB_UK My comment from the other thread: They also make it very difficult to delete your account. Rather than just have a link on the site, you have to contact customer services and they say they'll respond in 24-48 hours. Not to mention the ways they try to hide you removing your card details. If you want to remove your card details, do the following: _The easiest way to do this would be to go to the My Account page then click on the ‘Add Moonpig Prepay Credit’ link, click on the Buy link and your saved card details will be shown onscreen. Click on the ‘Remove Card’ option._ ------ 51Cards Looks like the API is no longer accessible from here. Seems like they have pulled it down. ~~~ hanoz In the circumstances that might be a generous explanation for their ID enumerable non rate limited API going down. ------ cdwhitcombe In the address example you can even emit the arguments and it just returns you a large list of addresses. Would expect this to be hitting the news here in the UK tomorrow! Judging by their parent companies website they seem to be PCI certified ([http://careers.photobox.co.uk/security-officer- moonpig/](http://careers.photobox.co.uk/security-officer-moonpig/)) which is likely to be removed from them after this, also given the private information on show I would expect this breach of the data protection act to be meaning a large fine for them. For anyone at risk from this you can't just cancel your account, but you can manually go through and delete quite a bit of data such as address books and they then disappear from the API calls. ~~~ MichaelGG Been a while since I read PCI DSS but if the PAN isn't there, does it specify you have to protect that information? Also, if they don't actually have the PAN touch their servers (like, using a BrainTree or Stripe-like solution), PCI compliance is quite minimal. Even PCI DSS 3.0 is trivial to deal with using Stripe (they just insert an iframe so the CC info goes directly to their site). Of course, yeah, they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt here. Given such a terrible API they probably are a mess inside, too. ~~~ cdwhitcombe Reading that job spec I assumed they handle all the PCI side of things themselves, if using stripe etc I doubt you'd need such an involved role. Given the mess it looks like on the front, I would bet PAN's are stored in clear text too! ------ johngd They have 3 other brands: [http://photobox.co.uk](http://photobox.co.uk) [http://uk.paper-shaker.com](http://uk.paper-shaker.com) [https://sticky9.com](https://sticky9.com) Only the later seems to enforce SSL. I registered a dummy account on photobox, username/password/email, via their form which was not using ssl. ~~~ dpwm Photobox acquired Moonpig in 2011 [1]. In 2010, Photobox got called out for emailing passwords in plaintext[2], and were quick to take to twitter to say "It will never happen again."[3] At that point, it had only been happening for 4 years [4]. Coupled with the tone of the job advert already posted by others [5], it doesn't seem too hard to imagine a corporate culture where security is not a serious concern until things go wrong. [1] [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14275632](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14275632) [2] [http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/security/360163/photobox- sorry-a...](http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/security/360163/photobox-sorry-after- email-screw-up) [3] [https://twitter.com/PhotoBox/status/20719242964](https://twitter.com/PhotoBox/status/20719242964) [4] [http://blog.dave.org.uk/2006/06/more- password-s.html](http://blog.dave.org.uk/2006/06/more-password-s.html) [5] [http://careers.photobox.co.uk/security-officer- moonpig/](http://careers.photobox.co.uk/security-officer-moonpig/) [edited for clarity] ~~~ mtmail The number of companies that send (and possibly store) plain text passwords is scary. I keep reporting them to [http://plaintextoffenders.com/](http://plaintextoffenders.com/) ~~~ dpwm I was about to ask why anyone would bother sending plain text passwords and store them encrypted. I then remembered a high-school friend's first (and largely unsupervised) job where IIRC he devised a ridiculous password encryption (not hashing) scheme in PHP (on shared hosting). Unrelated horror unfolded a couple of years later when for some peculiar reason he had to move the site to a godaddy VPS. An unencrypted customer database sitting at /db.sql, fully accessible to the world. Apache had been configured to show directory indexes and, to take the site offline, /index.php had been removed. I think at the time I even needed to explain the possible consequences. I just remember being told that the database was restoring and it wouldn't take too much longer! I think any remaining part of me that implicitly trusted interesting websites with personal data died that day. ------ arielm It's astonishing that somewhere out in the modern world there's an api that returns personally identifiable information without requiring any sort of authentication. What I find absurd is that the company hasn't done anything about it. Even if they don't care/know about security they must at least care for bad PR... But with all of that in mind, I don't know what's the best way to fight these clueless behemoths. You disclose and thousands or even millions of people will be compromised. You don't and those same people could be compromised but no one will know because the attacker(s) will just continue to siphon information quietly. They should be waterboarded for making a responsible individual have to choose. For the record, I approve of this disclosure. Better to know the evil than let it go on unnoticed. ~~~ tripzilch > They should be waterboarded Except, you know, for the part where that is an inhumane thing to do, even when done to people that are actually guilty of committing terrible crimes. > It's astonishing that somewhere out in the modern world there's an api that > returns personally identifiable information without requiring any sort of > authentication. Hello, have you met the 21st century? It's a freakshow and clusterfuck of planetary proportions. Although even accepting that fact, yes, I suppose that doesn't make it less astonishing. Spoiler alert: things will probably get even more astonishing before it gets less. Fasten your seatbelts, wear a hat, etc. ------ teh_klev On top of this clusterfuck, I find it galling that I can't just close my account and have all my details removed. Oh, no you need to fill in a contact form. ------ comeonnow Lots of users on Twitter saying to delete your account, but is there any proof that this will exclude your account from the API? ~~~ kirun It would probably be more effective to update your account with nonsense details. ------ clobec This is irresponsible disclosure. You should have contacted the information commissioners office. They would have used legal powers to force Moonpig to rectify this. There are very steep penalties for not protecting customer data. Now that you've publicly disclosed this, opportunists (people one level above script kiddies) will probably grab a data dump and compromise every customer. Dealing with this via legal channels would have ensured a resolution whilst protecting customer data from any opportunistic bad actor. Shame on you. I can't wait for myself and my wife to get doxxed now. Thanks. Also, FYI; the whole card number isn't returned because they are probably tokenising the full card number with their payment gateway.... Or at least, I hope. DOWNVOTING because you don't agree with me? How rude. I believe I'm a making a valid point, there are legal channels in place to help with this sort of thing. EDIT. someone people think I do no hold moonpig responsible for this. I do! I am not blaming the security researcher. What I am saying is that some countries (like the one where moonpig is incorporated and operates) have agencies that deal with issues like these. Getting these agencies involved before public disclosure is a much nicer way to deal with these sorts of issues. I'm aware that this exploit may already have been used but that doesn't mean that we should tell everyone about it until it is resolved. Getting the ICO involved may have resolved this issue a long time ago. My disclosure - I have a friend that works at the ICO and she tells me that these issues usually take them (on average) 2 months to sort out. COmpanies get very anxious when the ICO contact them. ~~~ d23 You're getting mad at the wrong person here, full stop. This is gross, inexcusable negligence and incompetence. I'm surprised this guy didn't wait more than a few months, given the severity of this problem. > whilst protecting customer data from any opportunistic bad actor Riiiight. Do you honestly think something this basic wouldn't be discovered by criminals soon, if not already? ~~~ clobec > You're getting mad at the wrong person here, full stop. No I'm not. I;m not angry. I realise this is the fault of Moonpig >This is gross, inexcusable negligence and incompetence. I'm surprised this guy didn't wait more than a few months, given the severity of this problem. I agree >Riiiight. Do you honestly think something this basic wouldn't be discovered by criminals soon, if not already? We don't know if anyone has already used this. We don't know if anyone ever knew about his. But now we know everyone knows about it. To be honest, I would not be surprised if someone may have already used this for nefarious purposes but at this point in time there doesn't seem to be a public dump of data for low skilled hackers to continue using for years to come. I still think this should not have been publicly disclosed in this manner. He did not contact the ICO and he left this exploit open for a year because he didn't know the mature way to handle this. ~~~ legrandkay You do know that this is the first time a lot of people that do not live in the UK are hearing of the ICO	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }

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