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Public servants warned against liking anti-government social media posts - RileyJames https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/aug/07/public-servants-warned-against-liking-anti-government-social-media-posts ====== RileyJames "The guidance warns that “liking” something on social media “will generally be taken to be an endorsement of that material as though you’d created that material yourself” and sharing a post “has much the same effect”." So to press the like button, is to endorse, is to have created the content itself. WTF.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Direct correlation: imap use and tearing my eyes out - bkj123 What has been your experience with using imap (e.g. gmail and outlook)? I gave it a shot and was trying to be smart about it (e.g. not downloading spam folder). However, I found that performance was very slow. I'm thinking of going back to pop or just using the gmail client.<p>Looking to understand other's experiences and maybe learn how to improve performance or other approaches to utilizing IMAP. have a good one. ====== jws I find of the 6 IMAP mail servers I use from my Mac, gmail is the least reliable. It will hang or be unable to connect every couple of days. I suspect this is related to me leaving my mail program running on multiple machines. It seems to be better if I close the mail program on machines I'm not using, though this still leaves one machine and my phone dueling with each other for access. ------ yan While I haven't done anything fancy, using IMAP with Thunderbird and Mutt has so far been a pleasant experience. I find it to be faster than POP. It also doesn't need to poll like POP. Empty your spam folder once a week or so? Or try using Thunderbird? ------ bkj123 good points. Maybe I need to try another client like Tbird. The multiple machines is a no-no believe - I one time rec'd a gmail message along the line of "too many connections".	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Having lots of debt at a young age “is the new normal.” - spking https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/venessawong/millennials-average-debt-2019 ====== quaquaqua1 My parente went into a lot of debt at my age, but they were able to file bankruptcy and walk away from it after living the high life for 20 years. I don't have any student loans anymore but anyone in their 20s or 30s most likely doesn't have the same luxury my parents did.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
ChordBuff: hum a melody, get chords - golergka http://www.chordbuff.com/ ====== ChiguireDeRio Awesome idea! I wonder if they could add MIDI I/O	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Handling page faults in user space (2014) - nnx http://lwn.net/Articles/615086/ ====== vezzy-fnord Linux is the new Mach. This got merged recently. It's better than the old hack of using solutions like libsigsegv to overload SIGSEGV handlers. That it took nearly 25 years to get it should tell you a thing or two about monolithic kernels, though. ~~~ glandium Would you have a link to the merge itself? I was following the various iterations of this work, but missed it landing, and am now wondering what it ended up looking like. ~~~ vezzy-fnord The central commit: [https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux....](https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=86039bd3b4e6a1129318cbfed4e0a6e001656635)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Celebrating 10 Years of Firefox - openjck https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/11/10/celebrating-10-years-of-firefox-2/ ====== bad_user My love for Chrome ended and I switched back to Firefox about 3 months ago. The switch went well and I'm happy with my choice. Reasons: 1\. First version of Chrome for the desktop supported extensions, because it was competing with a popular Firefox, and now on Android they don't give a shit about enabling users to customize the behavior of their browser, which pisses me off. So I switched to Firefox on my Android because it allows me to use these plugins ... AdBlock Plus, HTTPS Everywhere + LastPass. Plus it has a handy Reader Mode, that's like Readability built into my Firefox. And I find the UI nicer on my 7-inch tablet. This naturally led to a decision to switch to Firefox on the desktop too, because Sync. 2\. In Firefox on my desktop I like having Tab Groups + the Awesome Bar (which does a good job of doing full text searches in my history, much better than what other browsers are capable of) + a really cool tweak to the Australis theme called "The Fox, Only Better" which is awesome and will make it much harder for me to switch browsers again. I also love it when Mozilla develops something, then everybody benefits, like Asm.js or PDF.js. Try using Chromium instead of Chrome, it's not the same experience. 3\. I've been all hooked into Google's stuff, I even pay for a Google Apps account and everything, but I noticed that Google hasn't been aligned with my interests. For example they killed Google Reader to promote Google+, they showed no interest in fixing Gmail's broken IMAP support, they showed no interest in fixing Google Calendar's broken CalDAV support, they discontinued the Exchange support from Gmail, they discontinued the XMPP support from Google Hangouts, they announced no interest in providing alternatives that I know of, certain features in their online products only work in Chrome. It seems to me that Google is only interested in standards as long as they are the underdog. I also moved to Dropbox as my cloud storage, because Google Drive still does not have a Linux client. I mean, Google out of all companies should think that Linux support also means headless servers (like home servers or other appliances), so providing Linux support should be obvious. But no, 2 years later, the OS X client is still shitty and still no Linux support. I have to trust my data to a third-party if I want that, or suffer one of the shitty open-source alternatives and risk my data. So there you have it - Firefox is a great browser and it also tries to make me happy. And yes, I would also like the one-process per tab model, but they are actively working on it. Happy Birthday Firefox. ~~~ lern_too_spel Your memory of desktop Chrome doesn't match mine. Chrome added extensions more than a year after launch. [http://chrome.blogspot.com/2009/12/google-chrome- for-holiday...](http://chrome.blogspot.com/2009/12/google-chrome-for-holidays- mac-linux.html?m=1) Its extension model remains superior to Firefox's, and I hope Mozilla fixes this. I shouldn't need Python and an SDK installed to develop a JavaScript browser extension. [https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Add- ons/SDK/Tutorials/In...](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Add- ons/SDK/Tutorials/Installation) ~~~ mnarayan01 > I shouldn't need Python and an SDK installed to develop a JavaScript browser > extension. You don't. The only things you need are a text editor and a zip utility (and I'm not sure about the last; it's certainly not needed if you're not distributing the extension). You only need the SDK if you want to use the Add- on SDK. ~~~ lern_too_spel Then it's a problem with the documentation ([https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2014/06/05/how-to-develop- fi...](https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2014/06/05/how-to-develop-firefox- extension/)), which is a little easier to fix. ------ bstar77 It seems the standards-based browser du jour is moving back in Mozilla's favor lately. I can say, for the first time in ages, that FF is very fast, very stable and very secure. Chrome, on the other hand, has been less stable, less fast and less secure. ~~~ lern_too_spel I have the same feeling on everything except security, but electrolysis should help with that. [http://m.slashdot.org/story/199459](http://m.slashdot.org/story/199459) ~~~ bad_user Firefox needs a better security model for add-ons. The thing that bothers me in Firefox is the Private Mode (Incognito in Chrome), as it doesn't disable add-ons. And I use private mode quite often. Mozilla has been relying on a more strict review process for whatever gets published on addons.mozilla.org (when compared to Google), with Firefox users experiencing less instances of add-ons turning to mallware/spyware, but I'd like both this review process and a better security model for these add-ons. ~~~ Excavator You could set up a separate profile for that¹. You can also use the Profilist² extension in your main profile for easy switching and creation. 1: [https://support.mozilla.org/kb/profile-manager-create-and- re...](https://support.mozilla.org/kb/profile-manager-create-and-remove- firefox-profiles) 2: [https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/profilist/](https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/profilist/) ~~~ bad_user Hey, thanks for the tip on Profilist. Neat stuff, wonder why it isn't included by default. ~~~ rhelmer Profile manager UI is still around and used to be easier to get to (there's a command-line option for it now), but it was too easy to accidentally remove profiles and also confusing for people who got into it accidentally. Profilist is relatively new and doesn't allow profile deletion, but to me still seems like the kind of feature that's great as an add-on but not used by so many people and confusing to less power-users. ------ jordigh This anniversary makes me feel like I should do something nice for Firefox. Then I realised that I've been working on their DVCS of choice, Mercurial. Well, Firefox, you've served me very well over the years. I hope I can make Mercurial better for you in return. Thanks! ~~~ nnethercote I know git gets all the love and attention, but I think Mercurial is great. Thank you for your contributions. ------ jvehent I was a Mozilla Suite user 12 years ago. Then became a passionate Firefox user and supporter of the Open Web. Happy Birthday Firefox! Looking forward to 10 more years! ------ dbarlett Did anyone else donate to appear in the New York Times ad? [https://blog.mozilla.org/press/2004/12/mozilla-foundation- pl...](https://blog.mozilla.org/press/2004/12/mozilla-foundation-places-two- page-advocacy-ad-in-the-new-york-times/) ~~~ netrus I still have my copy of the German FAZ ad. [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/7/7c/Firefox_faz_an...](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/7/7c/Firefox_faz_anzeige.pdf) ------ AdmiralAsshat I've been a Firefox user since it launched. It's still my browser of choice on my personal Windows laptop and on all of my Android devices--I admire Mozilla's willingness to not let the OS vendor hold a monopoly on the browser software, now as much as they did a decade ago with Microsoft. Then again, my primary music player on my laptop is still Winamp, so make of that what you will. ~~~ StuffMaster Switch to Foobar so you can be whole. ------ nagarjun I can't believe it's so old! I still remember using the first version of Firefox. Wrote a small story about my first encounter with it here: [http://nagarjun.co/post/102328175145/firefox-is-10-years- old](http://nagarjun.co/post/102328175145/firefox-is-10-years-old). ------ themoonbus Congrats. Although I no longer use it as my everyday browser, it made a big difference for me in the early days of OS X. ------ eyeareque I just got back from visiting a friend the Mozilla office. Thanks for creating an amazing web browser that opened a new dawn away from the shackles we were once stuck with. Also, thanks for the cake today:) ------ KyleSanderson DuckDuckGo is not a pre-installed search engine in at-least Nightly. ~~~ JohnTHaller It just rolled out in the stable 33.1 release today. It will hit the other channels (Beta, Aurora/Developer, Nightly) shortly. ~~~ dragonwriter I get that this isn't a code change and so this probably isn't _critical_ , but, still, isn't that exactly backwards? ~~~ mbrubeck Yup. To time the release with the tenth anniversary, it had to go around some of the normal release engineering and localization processes. ------ blutgens FF is awesome, if i wasn't an android guy, I'd be using it exclusively. But chrome <-> android Just Works™ ~~~ jvehent In my opinion, Firefox for android is vastly superior to chrome. ~~~ wldcordeiro I really love it, the only think that bothers me is the annoying UA sniffing so many sites do that only check for Chrome/Webkit to display mobile. ~~~ pwnna you can fake your UA with an addon on mobile. Works for me most of the time. ~~~ wldcordeiro I use that addon as well but I don't think that I should need to. It'd be better if sites used feature detection rather than UA sniffing. ~~~ staktrace You can help fix that! Report websites at [https://webcompat.com/](https://webcompat.com/) ------ Eric_WVGG “10 years ago we built Firefox ----to-give-you-a-choice--- because we realized how horribly we had botched Netscape Navigator.” _fixed_ ~~~ Eric_WVGG Why was this comment downvoted? This is exactly why Phoenix — I mean Firebird — I mean Firefox — was started, because the Netscape Suite was a fiasco, but the underlying Gecko rendering engine was worth salvaging. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox#History](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox#History)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Can Fracking Be Cleaned Up? - iProject http://www.technologyreview.com/news/428076/can-fracking-be-cleaned-up/?p1=A3 ====== DiabloD3 The rule of any headline that asks a question: the answer is always no. In this case, this greatly saddens me. Why haven't we banned fracking? We don't need the natural gas, but we need the groundwater its destroying.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Piracy Release Group Has Been Spying on Downloaders For 9 Months - Libertatea http://torrentfreak.com/piracy-release-group-has-been-spying-on-downloaders-for-9-months-131111/ ====== aroch And this is why I learned long ago how to defeat licensing myself rather than let someone else do it for me. Also why I use an active firewall.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Robert Scoble and Me - strangeloops85 https://medium.com/@quinnnorton/robert-scoble-and-me-9b14ee92fffb ====== Mz _She was propped up between two of my friends, walked away from the scene, and looked after for the evening. Both of those guys will have my undying respect for what they did that night._ Yes, this. The antidote to bad men is good men. It doesn't help to tar all men with the same brush for simply being male. _Once she was outed as a victim, the hate mail, the barrage of nasty questions, the endless accusations took, such a toll on her. Eventually, she took her own life. She’d just never been able to put it all back together after that._ This is one reason a lot of women stay silent: to protect themselves or other innocent bystanders, not the perpetrator. _The demonization of either rapists or victims is what makes the subject unapproachable, and doesn’t let anyone intercede to get abusive people the help they need, much less the victims._ This is an excellent piece and I am so glad she wrote it. My utmost respect for this incredible lady. ~~~ mercer > Yes, this. The antidote to bad men is good men. It doesn't help to tar all > men with the same brush for simply being male. I'll add that there are plenty of otherwise good men who might do bad things when shitfaced or on drugs, and I can't help but worry that separating men into bad and good doesn't acknowledge the very real risk of good men forgetting that they can do bad things too. (of course this applies to people in general, not just men) ~~~ guelo Personally I don't put that much weight on the drunkenness excuse. I've done many stupid things while drunk but, even while black-out drunk, I've never raped, sexually harassed or even physically assaulted anyone besides a couple self defense instances when I was younger. In my experience asshole drunks are asshole sober people too. ~~~ mercer As far as drunkenness as an _excuse_ I completely agree with you! I did not mean to bring it up so that we can excuse such behavior. But honestly I'm a bit baffled that you'd disagree that 1) good people do bad things, and 2) alcohol has a whole bunch of properties that increase the likelihood of an otherwise 'good' person doing a bad thing. It seems blindingly obvious to me. Or am I misunderstanding you and is it more about the 'excuse' thing (on which we're definitely in agreement!). ~~~ dEnigma I think the parent would agree that alcohol increases the likelihood of "good people doing bad things"; but alcohol won't make a good person do a _terrible_ thing, like rape. ~~~ TheAdamAndChe Not everyone reacts to drugs and alcohol the same way. Alcoholics often completely abstain from alcohol because once they have one drink, they can't stop. That kind of massive inhibition of control can extend into other things. It's not an excuse, but it can explain uncharacteristic behavior. ~~~ dEnigma I'm still not quite convinced about this. Sure, you might lose all inhibition and just do whatever you want. But that would mean that a drunken rapist _wants_ to rape, even while sober, but usually has the power to control himself. A _good_ person, in my book, has no urge to rape at all, no matter the level of self-control he can muster up at any given moment. Does alcohol really change someone's personality on such a level as to make someone suddenly _want_ to rape? ~~~ TheAdamAndChe I suppose this all boils down to what the definition of a "good person" is, which varies from person to person. I am of the personal belief that a person's actions determine who is good more than their desires. If a person walking through a gas station has a fleeting urge to steal a candy bar, that wouldn't make them bad in my eyes unless they actually steal it. If a person in the middle of an argument gets an urge to shove the other person but they suppress it, that shows discipline and maturity. I agree that it would be ideal if nobody had bad urges, but I think it's definitely good that many with those urges are able to control them. ~~~ dEnigma Yes, I suppose it would be wrong, or at least unfair, to only call people without any negative urges _good_. It certainly would mean that I myself would be far from good. On the other hand, given the choice, I would rather be around people without those urges in circumstances where they might lose their self-control, e.g. when they are really drunk. I believe such people _do_ exist, at least those without the urge to rape (I would count myself among the latter, but how can anyone ever tell? At the very least I never felt the urge, even when black-out drunk or extremely high on psychedelics) ------ dhruvp If there's one thing to learn I think it's that men can do far far more (like the intervening guys in the article) to step in and be far less tolerant of such grotesque behavior. Most men here (of which I'm one) have all probably witnessed some creepy comments and acts from our guy friends or colleagues and let it go. I think that has to come to an end. I know personally I can do better and would hope that if anything, we all demand more from each other. ~~~ 0ioI0j-o I 100% agree. I also felt compelled to mention that I've witnessed men making what I have felt are creepy comments / moves on women and they've actually worked (in that they received positive responses from the woman). Life is complex. ~~~ Frondo You see a guy making a creepy move, you call him out. Simple as that. You don't know if it's "working" because she's trying to keep him at ease til she can dash for the door, or why. See shitty, harassing, abusive behavior, call it out. For too long, we all let this stand. No more. Risk your job, risk short-term awkwardness, risk whatever because the women in the world deserve better than being targets while we stand around like cowards. ~~~ hycaria I know that's not malicious, but I'm kind of sick of being paternalized like this tbh. I can speak for myself, I don't need some _nice guys_ to protect me. How is that doing any good to the female image, seriously ? "Help ladies out, call people on their mistakes". We just look like poor helpless victims who rely on others to be guarded from sexual predators. ~~~ vidarh If you speak out for yourself, awesome. Just as it's awesome that Quinn Norton felt able to take on Scoble herself, including threatening violence if he didn't back off. But not everyone feels able to, or not everyone are strong enough to be able to fight off an attacker. And sorry, but it's not always going to be possible for bystanders to tell if you're able speak for yourself and choosing not to, or if you're terrified of someone. In this case, note that the article involves lengthy attempts at escalating concern and attempts at defusing the situation during which it is clear that the first woman is too drunk to know what's going on. After which Quinn takes direct action. In the former, the person in question clearly was not able to look out for herself (that's different from whether she the following morning, after having sobered up, would have liked things to continue), while nobody else had to stand up for Quinn. Nobody is saying we should step in instead of you if you're able to take care of yourself. But we also shouldn't stand by and let you get assaulted if your for whatever reason isn't in a position where you can. And that's not about gender - women shouldn't stand by quietly either. I do agree with you in the limited extent that it could have been worded in a gender-neutral way: Guys can be victims too. It's not specifically about helping women, but about stepping in if someone might be in distress or are unable to meaningfully consent to something. ------ Fricken The Weinstein thing really opened the floodgates. There's a guy in my hometown, whom I've worked with in the past, he's a pretty talented and prolific playwright, actor and director who's been at the centre of the local theatre and filmmaking scene for about 20 years now, and he's also a sexual predator, as anyone who's worked with him can attest to. The day before yesterday he made a long Facebook post under the #metoo hashtag basically confessing to his sins apologizing profusely, and promising to never do it again. Today he got fired from _everything_ that he's involved with. The apology was career suicide. The fucked up thing is that, just like Harvey Weinstein, everybody knew what he was up to, it had going on for years and while it made everyone uncomfortable people just looked the other way. Opening up about it is what ruined him. Honesty is the best policy something something. ~~~ elgenie I wonder why Weinstein getting outed as a sexual predator after it being an open secret in that community for years had this effect and Bill Cosby getting outed as a sexual predator after it being an open secret in that community for years didn't. ~~~ pygy_ Weinstein was far more powerful and thus dangerous to his potential denouncers. His fall is a signal that abuse isn't tolerated anymore from people with his stature. ~~~ eternalban > Weinstein was far more powerful and thus dangerous to his potential > denouncers. Really. Interesting. So you claim that e.g. The New York Times was weaker than a studio head? _Sexual deprevity in Hollywood has never been a "secret"_, but it doesn't help if your "stars" \-- which are then promoted to soft politics propaganda work -- are shown to be individuals that tolerate anything for fame and riches. And equally, it doesn't help advancing various social engineering projects if the heads of studios that push JUNK to your children are shown to be sexual predators. The actual question of interest here is what is being covered up that throwing Weinstein under the bus got the green light. ~~~ creep This is what I was thinking. The octopus sacrifices an arm to conceal the full extent of its reach. ------ gsteph22 Holy shit, I was sitting around that campfire. I remember the whole making-out incident. Buried that in a dunken haze 7 years ago. Yikes. Foo Camp was fantastic both years I went, and the O’Reilly crew has worked hard to make things better. We still have a lot of work to do. ------ ar813 I admire the author's willingness to see possibilities for positive change here, including through restorative justice. It is especially admirable in the context of the fundamental violations and loss of trust that such harassment and assault continues to impose on so many women in their professional careers. I can also completely understand different reactions to this, including a deep sense of anger and betrayal. We must all do better, and continuously seek to do so. In the short term, there is clearly value to outing commonly-known 'secrets' such as this one, in this and many other industries. ~~~ bertil I too admire it. Denouncing someone hopefully willing to change to start that conversation is a good idea. More importantly, it is necessary. Going on a creep witchhunt has too many risks of blowbacks. ------ satysin Also see this comment [https://medium.com/@sarawinge/i-remember-that- night-17f5bf2a...](https://medium.com/@sarawinge/i-remember-that- night-17f5bf2a9227) And this tweet from Tim O'Reilly [https://twitter.com/timoreilly/status/921124414418182144](https://twitter.com/timoreilly/status/921124414418182144) ~~~ protomyth Created a Code of Conduct? What the heck is wrong with these people? Full stop, you call the police immediately. You do not cover it up. Was he raised by a PR firm? ~~~ rtpg Reading this just made realize how bonkers it is that we aren't actually calling the police. If some guy was smashing people's laptops, this would be an obvious option on the spectrum of ways to handle it. But here.... Granted, this also means attention to the victim, and given how society treats people making these claims it can be an extremely scary step forward to make for them, on top of the experience itself. ~~~ protomyth The victim got enough attention without involving the police to commit suicide. Silence netted nothing and I would lay even odds that this wasn’t the last incident. ~~~ aptwebapps That was a different victim and the way the story was related it seems that her identity was leaked to that particular community. Scoble's victim at the campfire has remained anonymous. ------ jacquesm She's also calling out either Frankston or Bricklin, kind of weird to leave it unspoken who it was but to accuse both of them at the same time. Either name the person or leave it unspecified at least so no shadow hangs over someone who you know didn't do anything. ~~~ AlexCoventry Are the references oblique? I don't see them mentioned. Perhaps they have been removed from the article. ~~~ dredmorbius "At one of my first talks on body hacking, one of the creators of VisiCalc sat in the front row and yelled out sexually explicit questions at me while everyone, not just me, grew increasingly uncomfortable." ~~~ AlexCoventry Thanks. ------ ComputerGuru I knew Robert Scoble online 2004 - 2007 during his time as a blogger and an (unpaid/unofficial, if I'm not mistaken) Microsoft evangelist during the Longhorn beta days. I remember him as a bully who was not afraid to use his pedestal to call people out on personal whim and took great pleasure in his sense of power and fame. He often blogged out of ignorance on trending topics (TechMeme, anyone?) yet always got that traffic and those backlinks - one of those people that believed that if you spoke loudly enough what you said would magically both become important and true. It worked for him though, that I remember. He was a bully then and I'm not surprised to hear he still is one now, but presuming that this article is true I'm very sorry to learn that he didn't contain his behavior to online only. What I remember hating the most was just how successful people like him - and there are plenty - are at being popular. It just felt so unfair how this unintelligent bloke managed to con everyone into thinking his opinion mattered, got himself invited to all these exclusive events, and was somewhat of a mini-celebrity for no discernible reason at all. He wasn't someone you wanted to call out or cross because he never hesitated to fire back with all guns at anyone who gave him any flack and you didn't want to be the person everyone woke up to find shredded to pieces in their RSS inboxes the next morning. I wisened up at some point and tuned him out. I stopped trying to blog about how his latest piece was inaccurate and unsubscribed from his feeds, realizing he simply wasn't worth it, and, to be honest, that it wasn't a game I could win. The thing about people like him is that they largely live in an echo chamber. They don't really matter. If you can tune them out and cut them out of your life, you won't be missing a thing. And if enough people do that, then they lost at their game. I imagine there are a lot of people that saw this headline and hadn't a clue who Robert Scoble even was - that wasn't the case 12 years ago. Bullies fade. ~~~ AndrewKemendo _What I remember hating the most was just how successful people like him - and there are plenty - are at being popular._ This is really what boggles my mind. There are so so many people who are "independent consultants or innovators or specialists" but don't code, don't do product management or sales or any other of the core things that businesses do. Yet people somehow listen to them as though they are experts - despite having no expertise or hands on. I'd love for someone to explain why and how these people get to be well known. ~~~ crygin The scariest thought to me is a corollary to that idea of looking at the scary incompetence of journalism regarding a subject you understand, and realizing that most topic-specific writing is in the same boat -- right now, we are all looking up to and aggrandizing people who similarly don't produce/work, and not realizing it. A good reminder to think about the people you follow and what they've really done. ~~~ tome This is called the Murray Gell-Mann Amnesia effect (or rather, you're describing breaking free from it). [https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/65213-briefly-stated-the- ge...](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/65213-briefly-stated-the-gell-mann- amnesia-effect-is-as-follows-you) ~~~ dandare Thanks, I learned something new today. ~~~ icebraining By the way, the curious origin of the name: _" I call it by this name because I once discussed it with Murray Gell-Mann, and by dropping a famous name I imply greater importance to myself, and to the effect, than it would otherwise have."_ The full speech in which it appears is interesting: [https://web.archive.org/web/20060827111102/http://www.michae...](https://web.archive.org/web/20060827111102/http://www.michaelcrichton.com/speeches/speeches_quote03.html) ------ mcculley I’m a little bemused when people say this is a problem in the “tech industry”. It appears to be a problem in every industry. Tech people with blogs haven’t worked in other industries, apparently. ~~~ anon1385 It is a problem in the tech industry. It's a problem in pretty much every other industry as well. It is worse in tech than most other industries because there are more men in positions of power? Maybe, but I don't think it matters to how we respond to it. We here on HN are nearly all members of the tech industry, not other industries. Any amount of harassment is intolerable and it doesn't matter if it's worse in Hollywood or some other industry. That's no excuse. As members of a community/industry we have a collective responsibility for what goes on; for our own behaviour, for the behaviour we let men get away with, and for supporting victims. ~~~ mcculley I’m not arguing against any responsibility to improve the situation. I’m not convinced it is somehow specific to tech. ~~~ masklinn > I’m not convinced it is somehow specific to tech. I don't think I've commonly seen that claim, aside from an "all lives matter"-style dodge used to try and derail conversation in tech e.g. "tech has this problem" "not just tech", the original claim was never that the issue is exclusive to tech, only that it exists in tech. ~~~ mcculley I've read plenty of tweets and posts that claim that the tech industry is particularly misogynistic. I'm not convinced the tech industry is more misogynistic than other industries with which I have experience. I think there is some cognitive bias caused by the fact that the tech industry has more bloggers and more free time for drinking around campfires and calling it a conference. ------ nichochar I never liked Scoble, I always got a really weird vibe when I saw him live or in videos. I'm really sorry to hear that this happened to Quinn, and many others apparently. I believe sanctions should be very strong. I really hope they are, it seems to me like this man should go to jail. ------ thebiglebrewski Wow, I'm sorry this happened to you. That's really messed up. The recent, "Me too" movement has made me realize even more how pervasive this type of behavior is. Hoping I can be part of the solution and not the problem. Thanks for writing this. ------ matt4077 I never understood why the banality that Scoble produced was so popular? It's been a long time, but I seem to remember most of his articles had the vibe of "I tried 25 methods to format my USB stick and <this one> is two seconds faster". Anyway, I hope Quinn Norton gets all the support, kindness and apologies, she deserves. And that Scoble finds the catharsis he needs. ~~~ aaron-lebo Seems like he had a major drinking problem. Groping someone you just met at a professional meeting isn't normal behavior, seems like he couldn't control himself - alcohol being the issue. It's possible he's a decent guy but the demons come out with drink, like a Mel Gibson. He's apparently stopped drinking so hopefully he stays sober. ~~~ amunicio I have been drunk before; probably more often than my fair share (I went to college). While alcohol has disinhibited me, it has never prevented me from distinguishing between right and wrong. While alcohol has caused me to overestimate my dancing abilities or to tell a friend things that I regretted later, it has never made me say things that I did not believe or made me do things I knew were wrong. Sorry, but alcohol is not sufficient to explain groping or Mel Gibson's rants. ~~~ troupe > While alcohol has disinhibited me, it has never prevented me from > distinguishing between right and wrong. The whole reason that Quinn got involved was that there was a drunk woman making out with a drunk man and the sober people standing around thought that the woman had so much to drink that she could not distinguish between right and wrong. ~~~ matt4077 That's... a different kind of right and wrong? To use the parent comment's example: almost everyone will be more willing to dance or sing really badly, or maybe kiss the wrong guy. Only a tiny fraction of people commit crimes under the influence.[0] But you aren't completely wrong: Criminality just has a very low prevalence, so even if alcohol were to double it, it'd be rare to see. But from my experience it seems to be a very specific effect, making some people rather aggressive, for example, while having absolutely no such effect on others. The difference just seems to be that some people have traits of aggressiveness, and alcohol stops them from controlling it. Is that an excuse? Legally, it sometimes is: If you get blot-out drunk and shoot your wife in the head trying to reenact Wilhelm Tell, it's not murder, because no intent. At that point it all depends on what you could reasonably expect yourself to do when drunk: If this is your third wife and the third Apple you missed, it starts looking quite different. In this case, it appears Scoble had a history of such behaviour. Not only was he possibly behaving similarly even when sober (see the anecdote from her talk at the beginning), he had the chance of protecting people by avoiding such situations altogether. [0]...although my singing may qualify [1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Vollmer#Death](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Vollmer#Death) ~~~ b1daly I think you’re mistaken, simply by observing the incredibly high amount of drunk driving that goes on in my city. It’s indicative that alcohol can have very strong effects on inhibition and judgement. ------ Ensorceled A few years ago a read a good article about how sexism, homophobia, and racism is everywhere, is happening every day all around you. It pointed out that simply being aware and then saying something when you observe bad behaviour is helping but also will make you more aware of how often it happens. This was life-changing. I now simply say "That was inappropriate" when somebody says something discriminatory or "This is inappropriate" when there is something on going. I'm not an SJW, I don't make a big deal of it and I don't give speeches, I say the phrase and move on. But it's simple and powerful and, frankly a little depressing, because at some point you're saying it pretty often and realizing that, as a white guy, I don't have to deal with this crap. I was also kind of depressing to realize how much I had been marginalizing both the amount and impact of this behaviour that hasn't directed at me. ------ ForFreedom Another Woman Has Accused Robert Scoble of Sexual Harassment [https://www.buzzfeed.com/doree/woman-accuses-robert- scoble-o...](https://www.buzzfeed.com/doree/woman-accuses-robert-scoble-of- sexual-harassment?utm_term=.fpEv1XAQQ#.hlkWj6wvv) I wonder how many more will come forward in the tech Industry. The Weinstein saga did open the gates. ------ avitzurel In case you are interested, he is going to make a statement about it : [1] [1] [https://www.facebook.com/RobertScoble/posts/1015578291863465...](https://www.facebook.com/RobertScoble/posts/10155782918634655?comment_id=10155783150444655&reply_comment_id=10155783326114655&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R1%22%7D&pnref=story) ~~~ minimaxir > I will make a statement about this at midnight tonight on live video here on > Facebook Huh, _scheduling_ your crisis management for maximum views (as opposed to getting out a statement ASAP to control the narrative) is a new one. ~~~ jasonmp85 If you’ve been exposed to him at all over the years you should expect nothing less. ------ Spooky23 Is this type of behavior more pronounced in tech than other areas? I have heard above incidents like this from women that I’m close to either by relation, personal friendship or professional relationship. But not from my accountant or teacher friends. Anywhere I’ve worked has had zero tolerance for bullshit like this, as in you will be put on leave and terminated or banished from the premises. Maybe that’s unique? ~~~ justinlilly It being stated that it's zero tolerance and "well, give him one more chance b/c he's a top performer" [especially in small orgs with young employees </bias>] aren't quite the same thing. People are willing to make exceptions for their implicit biases. ~~~ cwkoss Stating zero tolerance and giving someone 'one more chance' is called being complicit. ------ desireco42 I was hoping this article is not "me too", but it is. And it is more serious then I could imagine. It pains me to read this about him, but don't doubt it. However unpleasant (to put it mildly) we need to go through this process and clean our act. I always saw tech as a forefront of human thought, so clearly we need to be better people. That is all. ------ hi41 I am so to hear this happened to you. I used to follow Robert Scoble's blog on Google Reader, Rackspace videos, Google Plus. There was one incident that made me very proud of him at that time. I think he did not blog for one entire week to support Kathy Sierra who was harassed online. From your article, I now know that he himself harassed you and other women. I feel so sad that I held this man in such high regard. What I am trying hard to understand is human nature. How can a person protest online harassment and turn around and harass another person at a party? I think fame, alcohol and drugs change a person for the worse. Lot of things to ponder about in your article. ~~~ SolaceQuantum I feel it’s a lot easier to identify when someone other than you is harassing someone. If you are harassing someone you can justify those actions to yourself that you’re just trying to get what you want, they’re not that bad, the other person is overreacting, etc. ------ brlewis Not sure I get this part: _I realized I was part of the problem that night — a woman’s safety in her career environment shouldn’t require credible threats of violence._ I could understand saying she wasn't part of the solution, but to me "part of the problem" makes a non-zero contribution to the problem. What she did was at worst neutral, no? ~~~ wiredfool What she's saying is that there's really no reasonable way that a threat of violence should be part of a professional interaction in the tech field. (or any, outside of boxing and perhaps hockey) It's similar to what I teach the kids: He started it doesn't make it right, you know it's not ok to hit your brother. What she did was what she felt like she needed to do at the time. What she's doing now is second guessing it, and trying to turn it to a generally more positive approach on all sides in the future. ~~~ aaron-lebo The threat of violence is an appropriate response in any situation to someone drunkenly groping you and refusing to back off. ~~~ rhizome Which also shouldn't be a part of a career environment. ~~~ icebraining I don't think anybody is disagreeing with that. ------ chirau Robert Scoble has responded and said he will make a statement over the weekend after speaking to his wife. [https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1015578381743465...](https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10155783817434655&id=501319654) ~~~ minimaxir ...and he deleted it, which is very uncharacteristic. Screenshot: [https://twitter.com/minimaxir/status/921265767282221061](https://twitter.com/minimaxir/status/921265767282221061) ~~~ chirau Ha! You're Max Woolf! Awesome, I have heard good things about you. I might want to pick your brain on something one of these days :) ------ xutopia I'm really happy this was written... It's almost as if there could be a positive way forward with all we are learning about consent. ~~~ jasonmp85 Wait what? “all we are learning about consent”? We aren’t learning a damn thing about consent. We are learning there is a huge segment of men who flagrantly don’t care about it. ------ KKKKkkkk1 > At one of my first talks on body hacking, one of the creators of VisiCalc > sat in the front row and yelled out sexually explicit questions at me while > everyone, not just me, grew increasingly uncomfortable. Who is it? ------ skc Wow, there's a name I haven't heard in years, literally. Never understood his appeal, particularly because I felt he was pretty bad at whatever his job was. He knew just enough about the technology he covered to convince non techies that something was cool I guess. I know he's publicly stated before that he had a drinking problem and was seeking help for it at one time. Sad to see he's actually one of these toxic people. ------ youdontknowtho Scoble. Jeez. I never understood the appeal of this guy's writing. It sounds like drinking, along with being "a star" went to his head. That's the only way you do something like that and think it's ok. I think you will hear lots of women come out about this guy. I wonder how much of this occurred while he was married? ------ camus2 Ouch, Robert Scoble, the guy that has a podcast on Techcrunch? or somebody else? ~~~ minimaxir Scoble never had a podcast on TechCrunch, but he was a contributor on the Gilmor Gang (and left after things got political) He was mostly an evangelist for Rackspace. His biggest claim-to-fame is the infamous Google Glass Shower pic: [https://www.theverge.com/2013/5/15/4333656/larry-page- teases...](https://www.theverge.com/2013/5/15/4333656/larry-page-teases- robert-scoble-for-nude-google-glass-photo) ------ 0xbear When I read these accounts they read to me like they’re from another planet. I’ve been in the industry for 20+ years, and not once have I been in a situation with my coworkers where such a thing would even be _feasible_, let alone acceptable. Maybe I don’t get invited to the “right” events? I don’t know. But all of this seems completely alien to all environments that I’ve ever worked in. ~~~ untog I've spoken to a few of the women I've worked with about this before, and honestly you'd be shocked how much absolutely does go on, right under your nose, and you don't notice it. How did everyone get home from the last happy hour the team had? Who shared taxis? Do you remember who shared with who? I certainly didn't. I was pretty drunk and what does it matter anyway? Well, turns out that after one night one of the managers shared with a subordinate and made a totally inappropriate move on her. Turns out he has a habit of doing it. I had _absolutely_ no idea. ~~~ 0xbear I’m not saying it’s not true. I’m just genuinely wondering if I simply don’t get invited to the kinds of gatherings where such things could possibly transpire, and why that is. I don’t think I’m quite _that_ boring or unattractive. ~~~ pavlov I don’t get it - are you saying sexual harassment happens to exciting, attractive people only? The point is that it happens to women everywhere, also (and perhaps even mostly) in ordinary settings where other oblivious men think it couldn’t possibly transpire. ~~~ 0xbear You’re feigning outrage. You get it perfectly well. All I’m saying is I apparently don’t get invited to social gatherings where such things happen. Anything else is a fruit of your imagination. ~~~ kalleboo The point is, even people who get invited to social gatherings where such things happen don't realize they're happening, so they also think they don't get invited to social gatherings where such things happen. So maybe you're DO go to such events but you just don't realize it. I mean, women get sexually harassed on _trains_. You've never ridden a train? ------ DonHopkins Eeeeeew, this didn't age well: Why Google Glass Will Be A Hit. The High School Girls Love Them. [https://soundcloud.com/scobleizer/why-google-glass-will- be-a...](https://soundcloud.com/scobleizer/why-google-glass-will-be-a-hit) ~~~ underwater What's wrong with that interaction? ~~~ DonHopkins Didn't South Park do an episode where Robert Scoble took a photo of himself wearing nothing but Google Glass in the shower, or did that really happen? ~~~ on_and_off I vaguely remember the photo but not the South Park episode (it might exist though) ~~~ DonHopkins Well I can also distinctly remember watching Bob Dylan and The Band performing Too Much of Nothing on the Muppet Show, but I couldn't find any proof it ever happened on google, so maybe I'm confabulating it, or google's covering it up. ------ cwkoss Scoble should be entirely blacklisted from attending any tech conferences. Boycott anything he touches. His entire livelihood is based on the fact that he has an audience and can promote things: he is very vulnerable to public opinion. Let's destroy his career. Everywhere he posts, remind people that he's a sexual abuser. Hopefully, if we can proverbially put his head on a pike, it will scare other potential abusers from committing crimes like these. EDIT: Wow, seems like this post is making the rape apologists feel insecure. It's raining downvotes. ~~~ omegaworks That's exactly the opposite of what the author of the article hoped to accomplish: >I’m very mixed on this. I believe if we don’t provide paths of redemption for badly behaved people, we enable abusers as much as we do by remaining silent. I also believe we need to talk about these things plainly, and we need to seek to help and elevate the victims. >The demonization of either rapists or victims is what makes the subject unapproachable, and doesn’t let anyone intercede to get abusive people the help they need, much less the victims. ~~~ cwkoss I appreciate the author for writing this article and respect her courage, but I disagree with the proposed solution. I think fear is the only emotion sexual abusers will be deterred by. If the treatment of Scoble doesn't make other powerful sexual abusing sociopaths fear for their livelihood, they won't change their behavior. Total scorched-earth ostracism seems like it would have more impact than any other option. ~~~ _mhr_ The problem is to assume that he's a sociopath, but I'm inclined to think not, particularly in light of this comment: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15512398](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15512398). It's possible to have empathy for someone whose actions are disgusting. The world isn't black and white. ------ tryingagainbro Adios Robert Scoble, our very own Kim Kardashian. As per sexual harassment, even after Weinstein most women will keep quiet. It's a much better _career_ move, unless their attacker is on the ropes. (Unless he's outed he can not be in the ropes, I know). Many people with money and power do feel entitled to everyone, not to just those that go after such men. ------ justinjlynn Well, that quickly went where I wasn't expecting it to go. I would, at the very least, appreciate a mention of the fact that the article linked has accusations and explicit descriptions of sexual harassment and assault in the title, please. Or, if that's not manageable, at least tag the thing NSFW. ------ handsomechad This is an extremely touchy subject but something always pops into my head when I read stories like this and I haven't seen it brought up. I'm hoping this doesn't get buried; I really don't have an axe to grind here, but I want to hear how people think about this dynamic. It is something that's hard and not PC to discuss publicly. Do women react to alcohol differently? It seems like our culture and our legal system treat an inebriated woman differently than an inebriated man when assessing a situation. It seems like if a woman is wasted and making out with a guy "consensually" she is being victimized because she _cannot_ consent when she is drunk. But what if the guy is also inebriated and _he_ cannot consent or decipher consent. I, for example (I'm male), would have to be _extremely_ drunk to PDA like that in a professional setting. Even then it's hard to imagine. What if it's just two really drunk people hooking up? Is it one of those "I know it when I see it" situations? This is fine for me, but it seems like it is only applied with women being the victim and a man being the aggressor. Maybe that is because of the natural sexual dynamic of the onus being on the male to seduce the female. By saying that the woman had no control because she was inebriated, but Scoble did, aren't we denying the woman of her agency? Unless of course Scoble plied her with alcohol/drugs a la Bill Cosby? To be clear, and this goes without saying, I am NOT condoning Scoble's actions, I really don't know anything about Scoble other than this story but from what it sounds like he has a pattern of transgressions, including a completely inappropriate groping of the author in this story. I'm also not trying to deflect off of the serious issues at hand here, but the other comment threads are doing a good job of covering those. But I also don't think I am "victim blaming" either. Unless we grant that women inherently have less agency than men. Now this Scoble situation might have been a black and white case, but it seems to me there is a lot more grey area in these situations than we let on as a culture, and I am just wondering what the "rules" are. ~~~ Mz "Do women react to alcohol differently?" Yes, actually. Women metabolize it differently, plus size matters. Men are typically larger than women. They can handle more liquor and be less drunk. So a hetero couple that are consuming alcohol together at the same pace typically causes dramatically greater impairment for her than for him and more quickly. Alcohol is the single most common date rape drug and is a factor in the vast majority of date rapes. Additionally, highly sexually aroused women lose certain cognitive functions. This is not true for men. I strongly suspect this element is a significant factor in many social norms that establish different expectations for male and female sexual behavior. Women literally have their judgment impaired by high arousal. I think this is part of why society as a whole is pickier about the need for women to pursue more cautious strategies when choosing a sex partner. ~~~ mercer > Additionally, highly sexually aroused women lose certain cognitive > functions. This is not true for men. I strongly suspect this element is a > significant factor in many social norms that establish different > expectations for male and female sexual behavior. I did not know that! Do you have any references at hand? ~~~ Mz No. I saw it on a TV show years ago. I am on a phone. I am in no position to provide a citation. ~~~ mercer No problem, Google will also work :). ~~~ Mz You might try searching for studies where they did MRIs or other brain scans of people masturbating to orgasm. I think that was the study I saw on the TV show. But it has been a few years.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN : Where Does VC Money Really Go? - samirahmed In the last few years, we We numbers like 81 million for Box.com, 11 million for enterproid etc, 100 million for foursquare. I have no experience with startups, or operation sides, but I am curious as to where this money goes? Hardware costs for servers? Salaries/wages? Legal fees? Understandably it is different for different startups, but on average what is the breakdown look like for a software startup (web-based). ====== patio11 It might differ based on the company, but the #1 cost by a fair margin for virtually every funded software startup will be the costs associated with employment: wages, benefits, and taxes. That could be 50~80%+ of expenses. (One engineer costs you about $15~20k per month.) Companies with noteworthy other costs include Zynga/Groupon, which both spend absolutely gobsmacking amounts of money on advertising (and, depending on how you count revenue/expenses, their revenue share deals with Facebook and merchants respectively). Server/hosting expenses tend to be heavily sensitive to what you're actually doing: Zynga and Dropbox pay a lot relative to their revenues, but at a 37Signals-esque company they're chump change. Legal fees are typically rounding error. Ball up all administrative overhead and that's in handful of percent region. Your physical workspace can be a fair chunk of change, depending on where you are, how you came by your space, and to what degree you optimize for having a prestigious address or office space. ~~~ ra In my experience wages are at least 80% of all costs. ------ inmygarage In the beginning, people costs are where most of your money goes, by far. Whether you have employees or contractors, human capital will cost you the most. For a typical $500K seed round, here is my breakdown for 12 months of expenses. Feedback welcome. 2 founders + health insurance + taxes = $10k/month 2 engineers + health insurance + taxes = $20k/month 1 p/t designer = $5k/month ...and you've burned through $420,000 of your $500,000 in 12 months. As for the other $80K? Legal Fees: $10K (or $800/month); Space: $30K (depending on where...around $2500/month); Accounting/Finance: $10K ($800/month); Server Costs + Hardware: $12k ($1k/month); Miscellaneous Expenses including random contractors here and there, marketing expenses, SWAG, a party if you want, some travel to a few conferences, food, etc.: $18k ($1500/month) Hope this helps. ~~~ DanI-S Is ~50k/yr a typical founder salary? How much does it vary from this kind of number? ~~~ inmygarage Founder salaries vary wildly depending on amount raised, whether the company is profitable or even generating revenue and the stage of the company. Some people pay themselves $1k/month and some pay themselves $15k/month. I figured $4k/month was a good benchmark based on a pre-series-A seed-financed tech startup that is generating minimal revenue and is not profitable. ~~~ nicholasreed While mocking up salaries with an adviser, he said that we should earmark $60k for founders "so people think you're stable." ------ staunch Generally employees' salaries are the biggest expense in almost every startup and at every stage. Hence the saying that "overhead walks on two feet" ------ ericboggs Some of the cash in these mega-rounds never hits the balance sheet and instead goes directly to founders and early investors. ------ Irishsteve Based on my experiences in the UK, different start-up's get funding of 30 million etc. but the money is over X years as long as Y objectives are met. In actual fact the company is getting a fraction of that 30 mill each year therefore far less cash rich than the press release indicates. ~~~ pge Milestone-based fundings like this are pretty rare in the US and usually in troubled or very high risk situations. Most vc fundings that you would hear about are straight up equity deals (cash received at closing). ------ PanMan Try making a simple spreadsheet for a startup, for example for 18-36 months. Before I ever did that, I always underestimated how far the money would go. Most will be people. The examples you name have hundreds of people working for them. That really ads up. ------ jwatte Somewhat depending on the business. Mining is different from social networks is different from clean tech :-) For software, something like: 1\. Salary/Benefits. 2\. Marketing/PR/Sales. 3\. Rent/Utilities/Facilities. Everything else is likely a variable cost you can pay with customer money, aka "revenue." (Anything from direct sales to ad-based monetization) Once you can in addition pay the above three from revenues, you should probably stop taking investor money and look for liquidity. ------ jdh For mega-rounds: \- SaaS companies like box flush it all on customer acquisition. Billboards on 101, google Adwords, telesales teams. See Jive's S1: $60m rev run rate and losing $2 for every buck of revenue. \- groupon, living social: customer acquisition also: web ads. Plus salesforce to call on local businesses \- four square plus everybody above: "secondary" I.e. into the pockets of founders, early shareholders and, once in a blue moon, employees. ------ goodweeds Strippers and blow. ~~~ dholowiski Are you hiring? ~~~ adamzochowski Are you a stripper? ------ rscale 1) People. People are incredibly expensive. 2) Promotion. Especially in winner-take-all markets, where it's especially important to be the first player to reach scale, and in markets with high customer lifetime values. 3) Capital expense. Sometimes a business model requires huge warehouses (amazon) or massive R&D, or some other huge capital expense that serves as a meaningful investment. 4) Acquisitions. Sometimes it's spent buying other companies to help achieve goals that they might not otherwise be able to achieve in the required timeline, using only internal resources. 5) Miscellaneous. Accountants, lawyers, bankers, travel, telecom, that great domain name, hosting, internal infrastructure, SaaS products, conference attendance, catering, and other miscellanea.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Readying Windows 8.1 for release - Suraj-Sun http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2013/08/27/readying-windows-8-1-for-release.aspx ====== mikhailt What are they thinking? There are zero excuses not to release it early to MSDN/TechNet. There could be show stopper bugs that those folks can find. Developer needs those builds the earliest as possible, not on the same day as the same day as the customers get it.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
What I’ve learned in 5 years of running a SaaS - rahulroy http://mir.aculo.us/2013/11/27/5-things-ive-learned-in-5-years-of-running-a-saas/ ====== WA I absolutely agree on every item. Notes: 2.: Couldn't agree more. I tried it a few times, could never make it, because something came up. So I don't tell release dates. I hardly tell about new features. Nobody cares. Perfect. 5.: My PHP application without any fancy technology makes me close to 100K euro in revenue per year. It delivers, it keeps delivering, there are no problems. I want to add one more thing: 6\. You hear critics' voices the loudest, if you don't do anything against it. I changed pricing once and about 50 people complained. I tried to justify myself (won't do this again) and the 50 people became a mob with the respective mentality. No chance to say anything. I might have lost another 50 users because of the discussion. In my mind, I completely forgot about the other few thousand people who did not complain. Happy people hardly contact you, only the critics and haters. Don't let it sink in too deeply. Or use an easy mitigation strategy: If people reach a certain goal, ask them for feedback by writing a personal sounding email (that you send automatically, for sure). You'll get mostly positive feedback. This is important from a psychological point of view: You see that people are happy with your product and you can handle the critics in a better way. Most emails I get are like:"There's nothing to improve, thank you so much for this product". Nice :) ~~~ HyprMusic Out of interest, what is your SaaS? ~~~ WA Sorry, won't tell. I decided to keep a low profile on HN :) It's consumer-oriented, it costs 2 euro a month, it has several thousand users. ~~~ applecore You should raise your prices. Charge at least 5 euro a month, or 50 euro a year. ~~~ WA I heard that before and my sibling-poster is correct: You have no idea what my product is, so you can't say anything about the price. If my product were MP3s, 5 bucks per MP3 wouldn't work. Anyways, your point is not totally invalid. I did a mistake when I changed from free to paid. I started with 99 Cent per month. The goal was to convert as many users as possible. This worked well. Only about 10-20% stopped using my service. However, it made future price increases harder. Some people would pay more. For some people the service delivers a a lot of value and they'd probably pay 10 bucks a month. However, there are also quite a few people for whom 2 euro is the limit, especially since the long-term costs would explode for them. And I can't experiment with pricing. The niche is too small to have this go unnoticed. I know, because I tried. Either I increase it globally for everybody or not. To be honest, maybe I didn't find the perfect pricing point yet, I don't know. But it's okay, because I can live quite comfortably. ~~~ PhilipA Couldn't you make different levels of subscriptions? So find a new idea to improve you product, and have only those with Gold membership be able to use it. This way you don't make and enemies with the old subscription, but you can still convert more to the more expansive price tag. ~~~ WA I thought about that as well but I have a luxury problem: There is not much to improve. In the space I'm operating in, the software, as it is, can be considered more or less complete. I mean, I can always add features, but the core mechanics, the way it works, the way it delivers value and the value people expect from the software is more or less complete. There's not much to add that improves the perceived value for people in such a way that they'd be willing to pay more for it. But the fundamental idea is right: There must be some additional thing that's good for people, that people want. There's also related products, added benefit, whatnot. I won't do Gold membership, but I might be able to sell different things that complete the offering for some people. Compare this to Microsoft Office. Word is for writing stuff. It's more or less feature-complete. Sure, you could add some stuff, but most people are happy with how it is in its basic edition. So Microsoft offers also Excel and PowerPoint. They are for very similar people, they complete the offering, but they're totally different. A "Word Gold" wouldn't make any sense. One more thing: Whatever I add and whatever pricing change I introduce comes at a cost. Introducing tiered-pricing (3 wiggles for 2 euros, 7 wiggles for 4 euros etc.) for example has benefits, but it also increases complexity and decision making. I'd do this for my next project, but for the current business, I'm also a bit stuck in the current userbase with decisions I made in the past. I might offer my service in English as well next year. That's going to be an opportunity to experiment a little bit and a way to grow the business. ~~~ joelhooks An interesting tactic that I see repeated by successful bootstrapped internet businesses is to really dig into the pain of their current audience. You've got this group of thousands that have proven to pay for things on the internet. You are in a position of trust, since you provide them value already. What are their other pain points? That is the question I'd be studying them to answer. ~~~ WA Thanks for your advice. I probably didn't dig deep enough into the pain points. But I know what you mean. I gonna try something and go from pain points to product ideas. I mean, I talk to people and ask for feedback, but maybe I'm asking the wrong questions. ------ sigil Number 5, "don't believe the hype," reminds me of this interview with the creator of Pinboard... > _The Pinboard about page says: "There is absolutely nothing interesting > about the Pinboard architecture or implementation; I consider that a > feature!"_ > _Can you explain why you think that 's a feature?_ > I believe that relying on very basic and well-understood technologies at the > architectural level forces you to save all your cleverness and new ideas for > the actual app, where it can make a difference to users. > I think many developers (myself included) are easily seduced by new > technology and are willing to burn a lot of time rigging it together just > for the joy of tinkering. So nowadays we see a lot of fairly uninteresting > web apps with very technically sweet implementations. In designing Pinboard, > I tried to steer clear of this temptation by picking very familiar, vanilla > tools wherever possible so I would have no excuse for architectural wank. [http://readwrite.com/2011/02/10/pinboard-creator-maciej- cegl...](http://readwrite.com/2011/02/10/pinboard-creator-maciej-ceglow) ------ bsaul I just upgraded my laptop from a 4 years old mbp to a brand new one, got a 27" second screen display, and i can tell you my productivity has been skyrocketing. Performance gains are obvious, but the psychological aspect is also a factor. After working for a year on the same project, new hardware can bring some new joy, and a new boost to your project. ~~~ stinos 4 years is reasonable. But the OP just says 'upgrade often' which might mean anything and as such reminds me too much of iDiots [1], which is imo not what your upgrade strategy should be like (i.e. upgrading for the sake of upgrading). Over the years I tried different upgrade schemes, and it seems 2 or 3 years works best for us. Over the course of that timespan there is an overall performance gain large enough to notice and worth money. If you go with less, say 1 year, the gain is much smaller, and you essentially pay for something that's the same but just looks newer. Also depending on the country you live in, there's a certain amount of time you can use hardware as an actual cost on your tax form. As such keeping it much longer than that time means loss, keeping it much shorter as well. The psychological aspect (which we all know since childhood already and basically is set in our genese: new = interesting) does do something, of course, but has in my experience no long-term effect whatsoever apart from it costing money. Especially with short upgrade cycles the 'wow, new' effect gets less and the money effect more. [1] [http://vimeo.com/79695097](http://vimeo.com/79695097) ~~~ aestra Adding extra ram or a second monitor would be upgrading, you don't need to replace every component. ~~~ stinos This is true - must admit I didn't consider it/forgot it as I'm not a big fan of saving on these from the start: when we buy new workstations, we immediately get them with plenty of ram (which is rather cheap anyway) and screenspace (which is productivity-wise way more important for me than raw computing power) ------ measure2xcut1x My homegrown saas application grosses ~$225k USD per year and growing. I started it in 2003 with $0 capital. I don't currently advertise, new business comes from seo and referrals. I am the sole developer/designer. (I use those titles loosely.) What I have learned: \- Try to think about/plan for ten years out \- Make your application easy/pleasant/fun to use for you _and_ your customers \- Limit third party dependencies at all junctures \- Log everything, it makes support and monitoring easy and fast \- Customers don't care what language/platform/db you use \- Have a support ticket system \- Have a coding convention/style and stick to it \- Life work balance is important, take vacations \- Run lots of backups \- Keep it simple and thank yourself later! Of course YMMV. Hope that's helpful to someone starting out. ~~~ colanderman moneyrich4, who is hellbanned, has a good question for you: _i have a question for you. i have a software product, and its so informative it would almost assist someone who copies it. any advice on planning 10 years out for a software product with this problem? planning x years out is not my strong suit. i've thought a bit about removing stuff that would help competitors but that would hurt my customers. i will probably do this though anyway._ ------ bowlofpetunias > software that allows you to concentrate on developing your application’s > features rather than configuring servers If you are running a SaaS, how is system administration less important than coding? Now if the author had written "software that allows you to be more productive on both fronts", fine. But the notion that operations is somehow less important than development is exactly what fucks up so many SaaS companies in the long run. Your users want your service to be 24/7 available and responsive. That's not a static goal (unless you fail to gain traction), and an essential and highly integrated part of what you deliver. Maybe the author is lucky that his particular SaaS is easy to deploy and scale, but dismissing system administration as a distraction that can be solved with software is not universally applicably advice. ~~~ mrgoldenbrown The context of the snippet you quoted is "Spend money on tools that make you more productive." In other words, don't skimp on a tool or service that can simplify an operations task, if the result is that you can focus more time on features. I don't see the implication that operations is unimportant. Having a laptop/PC that you can develop on is important to developing a product, but no one would suggest that the author design one from scratch. Everyone (excepting perhaps Richard Stallman) would say it's better to just outsource that task to Apple or Lenovo. ------ patrickwilson I especially agree with item #2. I have been involved with several web based projects that have "failed" only because someone loosely associated with the project put a release date and the dev team made the mistake of agreeing (it seemed like a sure thing at the time). However, this deadline took its toll on the team's moral. As it became more and more evident that we would not meet the deadline we became more and more grumpy with each other and started shooting down great product ideas because the couldn't be done NOW. It resulted in lots of bad blood and several resignations. That being said - I do think there are certain situations where release dates will exist in a SaaS product. For instance, if you market tends to start and stop activities on a set calendar (ie: school year) or if there are a handful of trade shows that are critical to demonstrate new features at. I think it is about being insanely pessimistic about how much you can actually achieve. Figure out the minimum you need to demo at a date and work on that first, but never commit to a set of UI diagrams with features that are not insanely flashy for a demo. my $0.02 ~~~ joelhooks There is a distinct difference between internal milestones/targets and publicly announcing "feature X will be ready by xx/xx/xxxx!" ------ jwr As someone who runs a SaaS company, I agree with everything in this article. The importance of point #1 cannot be overstated! ------ rodolphoarruda "2\. Never promise dates for a feature launch" Reminded me of a sponsor who once offered me a bonus if I could put together a schedule with delivery dates for each and every product feature. "Hmm, no thanks. I prefer to leave it (the bonus) for when we go to market." ~~~ ams6110 All the side projects I've ever done have had hard deadlines. E.g. systems that had to be ready for a campaign the client was already committed to. But for something that's entirely your own, yeah creating artificial deadlines doesn't make a lot of sense. ------ drderidder 5\. Don't Believe the Hype - really good points there, too. "Use technology that's proven (to you)." I agree but also don't ignore newer technologies just for the sake of familiarity. Especially if it has an active, supportive community. ------ tixocloud Really agree with #3 with regards to software. I've been focused on getting a VPS and the flexibility but it's lead me to not focus on my application/service. The configuration and maintenance of the VPS is chewing up my time, time that I could have spent working on validtaing my idea. Maybe I'm just not focused enough but I'll try to get something going on Heroku so my application/service gets the attention it needs. Any thoughts? ------ jusben1369 "It’s your job to make your customer more awesome. Every decision you make for your product and business should revolve around that." Unless of course your customer requires knowing a date that a certain feature needs to be in place by. In which case, point them to Number 2. Which really means Number 2 should be Number 1 because Number 2 negates Number 1 if the two come in conflict. ------ ibsathish "Never promise dates for a feature launch" \- Gem of a point. ~~~ cygwin98 In a dull corporate environment, the equivalent is "No ETA yet". ------ mathattack I like that there is a perspective of time. A six month sprint would not care so much about working hours, ignoring hype, and investing in productivity tools. ------ frozenport Post would benifit from examples or stories. Also genuinely curious how author can stay afloat in the rough and tumble world of note taking SaaS. ~~~ bdunn You mean of time tracking? I know Thomas and Amy well, and trust me when I say they're doing quite well with Freckle. And there are much, much bigger fish in the pond. The great thing about building business tools is that the markets they typically serve are SO BIG that you only need a few hundred / thousand accounts to have a healthy and profitable company. ------ mwcampbell > software that allows you to concentrate on developing your application’s > features rather than configuring servers I wonder if Amy and Thomas would use a PaaS like Heroku if they were doing a new product. Or would that be considered too expensive? ~~~ ma2rten I can't answer for Amy and Thomas, but I guess the answer would be it depends on the project. If you are building a freeminum project with lots of pageviews, you'd have to watch server costs more than a SaaS with only paying customers. Just do a quick estimation and you will get an idea how much it will cost you. ------ niyazpk [3] ... software that allows you to concentrate on developing your application’s features rather than configuring servers. Can somebody please explain what he means by this using some examples? Thanks! ~~~ wikwocket Here are some examples, some based on personal experience. \- You could set up and configure an email server to send email to your users, or just use a service with an API like Mailgun or Mailchimp. \- You could write your own Wordpress theme and plugins from scratch, or just pay $10 for a slick theme and $50 for a few plugins that meet all your needs. \- You could spend time each week backing up your system with a set of external drives, or just pay a monthly fee to Crashplan or Dropbox. \- You could buy a discount VPS account and spend all your time keeping it patched and running, or just pay for a fully managed server until you outgrow it. In each case, the former solution is "free," but may require you to spend tons of time getting it working and putting out fires. Often it's better to pay a little money to just remove the problem from your critical path. The reason for this is that you only have a finite amount of time and mental energy each day. Try to use them on the things that matter. ------ NameNickHN Of course a SaaS is a "make customers awesome" company but you'll need use technology to make it awesome. Sure, clients don't care about the technology but that is not the same as "You’re not a tech company". ------ z3bra Did you learn something about privacy of users?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Microsoft is bringing the Bash shell to Windows 10 - pyprism http://techcrunch.com/2016/03/30/be-very-afraid-hell-has-frozen-over-bash-is-coming-to-windows-10/ ====== sciurus See [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11388418](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11388418) ------ be5invis And i am curious about can this thing run Wine? ~~~ TheOsiris lol... slow-clap.gif ------ dang Comments moved to [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11388418](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11388418). ------ fbomb Hahaha - I just used GRC's Never10 tool to stop the constant annoying pestering to upgrade to Windows 10. Now, I'm not so sure anymore. ------ moizsajid Great!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The Internet Has a C/C++ Problem and Developers Don't Want to Deal with It - signa11 https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/a3mgxb/the-internet-has-a-huge-cc-problem-and-developers-dont-want-to-deal-with-it ====== FourierTformed I think we all like to think that our high level languages will save us from those pesky errors we encountered when learning how to program in C or C++. Some definitely will be taken care of, but in the end, experience with and learning about the edge cases of your language is the only thing that can prevent you from writing code that doesn't do what you expect it to do. For example, I am a functional programming fan boy, and once I was like "damn, these people can't stop writing code with null ref exceptions. What if I introduce them to the option type?" In the end I just got a lot of questions about why this was a problem... so what do I know? ------ zzzcpan > This means languages which emphasize security, at the cost of ease of use, > are at a disadvantage. Why make such languages in the first place? Especially considering that you don't need to, user experience is not in conflict with emphasizing security. Suggesting rewrites is also a non-solution, given that you can make C much safer without rewrites. The problem here is rather different: you just want people to use Rust, not actually solve any of the raised issues. ------ ktpsns Btw, why doesn't the STL contain _also_ safe versions with access control? Like a second variant where the methods operator[] and at() are switched (cf [https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/container/vector/at](https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/container/vector/at)). That would be such an easy addition. ------ gigel82 No mention of performance in the article; if you live on the server and can spare big bucks for compute, sure... go ahead and pay for your Java or C# runtimes. Rust has its applications, but the static analysis ecosystem for C++ has come a long way. I can't imagine memory unsafety still being an issue in 99.9% of C++ code (and if it is, you need better tooling and policies, not a new language). ------ rileymat2 Are read faults considered Buffer Overflows? I thought that was exclusively for writing, with other terms like Buffer overread for reading past the end of an array? It is irrelevant to the point the article is making as a minor detail, just curious for my own knowledge. ~~~ FourierTformed I don't think read faults are buffer overflows, definitely different things. ------ crb002 You can write shotgun parsers in any language. Don't write shotgun parsers.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Bitcoin Nordic brings Bitcoin to 300M people in the Middle East and North Africa - Kenan https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=93352.0 ====== malandrew Finally someone targeting the markets where bit coin is most likely to succeed. TBH, I'd love to see all the bit coin startups band together and focus on Africa. It's 1/6 of the world's population without a legit banking infrastructure. In fact, the less traditional banking a country has, the better a target market they are. Bitcoin solves a problem they have, whereas in places like the US and Europe it is merely a better mousetrap and only in the long term. Short term it is worse. Besides countries in Africa, I would target countries based on inflation and currency volatility. The greater the inflation, the more demand there will be among regular people for for a currency free of inflation. ~~~ mtgx I completely agree. There's one problem though. Not that many African people there own computers, or even mobile phones. But next year they should start getting pretty usable $50 Android smartphones with the new low-power Cortex A7 and higher-performance versions of Android like JellyBean and later. I here there already is one around $800 that is pretty popular there. So the phones are coming. ------ mtgx Iran might really need it these days. ------ melvinng This is pretty cool, let's hope it doesn't push the currency higher.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Introduction to Clojure - jamesbritt http://www.creativeapplications.net/tutorials/introduction-to-clojure-part-1/ ====== rhgraysonii As someone in love with Clojure myself, and currently working on a side project/experiment involving writing a free and collaborative book on it, I really loved how in depth this went. Most the pieces you see on Clojure simply tap into application, syntax, getting a dev environment set up much moreso than the history, reasoning, and other pieces that I feel make this a good read (as far as I've gotten right now). That said, I don't know if it is just me but in Chrome the page just keeps crashing over and over. :( I'd really like to read further. Anyone else having this problem, or is it just me?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Whatever happened to chatbots? - Animats 2016 was the "year of the chatbot". Three years later, how are chatbots doing? ====== AznHisoka This article does a good job explaining why they were overhyped: [https://blog.growthbot.org/chatbots-were-the-next-big- thing-...](https://blog.growthbot.org/chatbots-were-the-next-big-thing-what- happened) Basically, people were too occupied with the fancy technology, and forgot about actually solving problems. People want to get things done, and clicking and choosing options in a GUI is already an very efficient way of doing so. When they want to do more complex things, we don't want to talk to a chatbot, only to eventually get an useless response like "Sorry, we can't do that request online. Please call us" (if I wanted to call someone, I wouldn't be using you!) ~~~ fatnoah I have a fair amount of experience in a related field, which is messaging- based service and came to the article is spot-on. Some companies simply wanted to map their phone support flows to messaging (yuck!) and others wanted to do more pre-chat type of activities, such as getting basic information from the customer. For these latter use cases, some level of "AI" was useful to let a customer communicate with more natural language rather than having to enter a specific number or keyword, but you still essentially ended up with an analogue of a phone system. In my case, a goal was better agent efficiency (i.e. fewer agents handle more customers) AND happier customers. A sweet spot for these chatbots was for them to handle specific interactions but not the whole conversation. For example, handling some basic pre-chat information gathering, or in the case of an interaction around rebooking a hotel stay, handling the date and room selection when using a medium that supports rich messaging, such as FB Messenger or iMessage. Until we have fully conversational chatbots, it's going to be really hard to have a solution that a) eliminates agents from the equation AND b) results in higher customer satisfaction. ------ quickthrower2 Well hello there Animats, how are you today? What can I help you with? ------ taprun Well, there are tons of chatbot popups when I visit websites. ------ rajacombinator They got btfo pretty hard by sites like this [https://chatbot.fail](https://chatbot.fail) and others. But they’re still around, easy to sell this concept to low IQ types. ~~~ Animats Um. Yes. I've been visiting various sites selling chatbots. None of them use a chatbot to sell their own services. Only one, IBM, even had a demo chatbot, and despite using "Watson", it was dumber than some phone trees. On the other hand, Alexa seems to be far better than most chatbots.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Show HN: Pick a number from 1 to 1000 in C - dlsym https://gist.github.com/dlsym/7705448 ====== dlsym Inspired by: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6816411](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6816411) SCNR.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Show HN: Breach Insider – Find out about your data breach, before everyone else - graystevens https://breachinsider.com ====== graystevens Some of you may remember the previous discussion about BreachCanary (now Breach Insider) from the DocuSign breach: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14347188](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14347188)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Bill Gates Fails to Guess the Price of Basic Household Items - jonawesomegreen https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/pammeb/the-ellen-show-bill-gates ====== RoyTyrell I don't know the price of a box of Rice-a-Roni either but then I don't live in San Fransisco where it's such a treat.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
No, It Really Is That Easy To Manipulate The New York Times - socialmediaisbs I've been working in PR since 1999. One of the most common things I run into with startups is that, when I talk about sockpuppets or how stuff actually gets placed on TechCrunch (usually via an influential investor), there's some skepticism.<p>That's understandable, but also a little frustrating because the media is now so broken, that the way we WANT to think it works is not at all how it works.<p>So I included here a link to something I wrote this weekend concerning how easily The New York Times was manipulated by a group of religious extremists in upstate New York, right as an investigation began into a housing development they were building was revealed to have been approved via fradulent means:<p>http://bjmendelson.com/2013/11/22/thanks-to-kiryas-joel-new-york-times-hanukkah-is-cancelled/<p>The lesson, at least I hope it is, should be clear: The media can be manipulated. The takeaway should be to change your perception of how the media works if you haven't done so already. It IS who you know and how well you can manipulate those people. Unfortunately. ====== pearjuice We are mere puppets of the system put in place by those with the biggest pay checks.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Munch On Me (YC S11), a deals site for restaurants, expands to West Los Angeles - hydrazine http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2011/07/munch-on-me-deals-site-for-restaurants-comes-to-west-los-angeles-.html ====== georgemcbay I know I'm not the first to suggest thing, but the name just sounds so creepy that I would never use this service. Yes, it is That Bad. ------ keypusher That's an unfortunate name. ~~~ AndyJPartridge I have to agree. A good proportion of people would giggle at that. ~~~ prawn This comment doesn't help: 'And that made me realize how helpful something like Munch On Me could have been to me in college' ------ smiler From the founder 'And that made me realize how helpful something like Munch On Me could have been to me in college' Do college students not cook for themselves in the US? ~~~ tansey Generally, no. There is usually a meal plan you purchase per-semester. Then on the weekends only a limited collection of dining halls are open, so most students either order in or go out to eat. ------ jordank I'd love to hear the experiences of people who've used Munch On Me. I've never bought a coupon for a specific food item before, and am wondering if that feels normal. ~~~ eokuma I think it feels normal. A lot of people have a problem with indecisiveness when it comes to deciding where to eat and a large reason for this attribute is money. Since Munch On Me provides not only deals to awesome restaurants in your local city but also deals for each restaurants' most popular dishes, you'll discover new eateries and you won't need to worry about deciding between all the delicious menu entrees.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Unreal Engine 4.16 Released - pyprism https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/blog/unreal-engine-4-16-released ====== tylermac1 I'm always amazed at just how much the Unreal team accomplishes in a release cycle. Keep up the great work!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Primary Care for $20/month and $10 copay - Profitable - will_brown Partnering For Community Care, LLC (www.partneringforcommunitycare.com) is a healthcare start-up that I co-founded in June of 2012 with my brother, Dr. James Brown, a family physician. As of this month the start-up has become profitable.<p>I would like to take credit; however, my brother called me with an idea last year to start a business for the sole purpose of providing low cost primary healthcare through a membership model - so low that uninsured could pay out of pocket and so low that it might be cheaper for insured patients to join than pay their insurance copay. Being uninsured myself this sounded like something that might be appealing for me - now if only someone can figure out low cost ER programs - and so in exchange for my legal services (and continued legal services) I became a co-founder and filed the legal documentation to start running the business.<p>In order to keep the start-up low cost, we opted not to purchase a brick and mortar location and staff it, but instead we ran the program from my brother's existing office, located in Daytona Beach, Florida. We starting activating members about September-October last year and traction has been great so far with extremely happy members, some patients have come into the office twice already. With a local hotel signing up a number of their employees (for $15/month corporate rate) this month the business officially turned a profit.<p>At this point we are considering 3 different options: 1. Continue the business from the existing office only, 2. Try to partner with additional primary care offices already in existence, or 3. Begin to open out own brick and mortar Partnering for Community Care branded offices.<p>Despite being a non-tech start-up I thought HN might appreciate this post, have questions or advice/suggestions. ====== subrat_rout There is a similar healthcare start up with branches in California and Nevada with similar pricing model(medlion.com). They charge $59/month per adult, $39/month for senior adults and $19/month for 21 and younger. I hope this model catches on throughout the nation soon. US is in desperate need of some disruptive model in healthcare with more transparent in pricing structure. ~~~ will_brown It is no coincidence that this model is being explored in CA, NV, and FL. I agree it is a great model (some can be expensive) and one that lowers cost by taking insurance and medicare out of the equation. The real problem is this is just a model for primary/preventative care and does not address the high cost of ER and catostrophic care. ~~~ subrat_rout Unless ER and catastrophic care including lab tests go through a radical changes, I doubt US healthcare system is going to change significantly. But still this is a first step towards towards a bigger goal. At least people will be able to afford some primary visit and preventative care. ------ pulledpork How do you achieve such low costs? ~~~ will_brown Because we run out of an existing primary car practice. So the one office we have has its own insurred and medicare patients we are just supplimenting their existing (thriving) practice. There has been some canabalization, some of their exisiting medicare/insurred patients signed up for a membership, but the practice doesn't care because billing medicare/insurance is so expensive, they employee 12 people for coding/billing alone. As of now we split the membership fee and with the office, so our cost is rather limited and does not include any medical personnel salaries. It is yet to be tested whether we can support our own brick and mortar, staff, ect... But we feel those will be profitable with 1000 members per office but our goal is upward of 2000 members per office. ~~~ j2bax That doesn't seem like it would add up for a stand alone office that served only these type of members. 2000 members per office would bring in $40,000/month. Add about 1000 visits (which seems like a lot for an office to handle (32 patients a day)) and that equals an extra $10,000 giving you a total of $50,000 revenue per month. Thats $600,000 a year which doesn't seem like it would go very far with your doctors, support staff, supplies, building etc. Cool idea, but it seems too good to be true for the consumer as a stand alone business! ~~~ will_brown Your $600,000 per office is suprisingly close to our numbers. However, this will cover over head, 1 doctor, 1 nurse practicioner, and 1-2 office staff. Now the profit is not giant, but what if we can replicate this 50 or 100 times it adds up, and most importantly we will have provided improved access to low cost quality care, which we are currently doing on a small scale and members are loving it. ~~~ j2bax Well that's awesome! I may have over estimated what it takes to run a small doctors office. If you could make this work on a wide scale you truly could make a huge difference in this country. Best of luck!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
AOSA: 500 Lines or Less (Early preview) - ApiM https://github.com/aosabook/500lines ====== ApiM The other AOSA books: [http://aosabook.org/en/index.html](http://aosabook.org/en/index.html)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Quantum “spooky action” approaches the human scale - chris1993 https://theconversation.com/experiment-shows-einsteins-quantum-spooky-action-approaches-the-human-scale-95372 ====== dbasedweeb Approaches the human scale? This experiment was done on 10^12 supercooled atoms in a vacuum. That is at least FIFTEEN orders of magnitude away from the scale of the average human body, which is not supercooled or in a vacuum. This experiment is very interesting and an extension of previous work with massive oscillators, but the title is absurd. ~~~ chris1993 Human scale because it's approaching the range of normal human experience (width of a hair). ~~~ dbasedweeb If I call something “Elephant scale” and then claim I meant “an elephant’s hair” you’d laugh at me, and rightly so. ------ ohiovr Does resonance have anything to do with it? (I guess in a classical sense)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Certified Pre-owned Teslas for Less Than $40K USD - untangle https://electrek.co/2017/06/06/tesla-cheap-new-certified-pre-owned-model-s-vehicles/ ====== lucaspiller So what's the current situation with battery life on the Tesla and other full EV vehicles? I have a Prius (which uses NiMH, so not really the same but still) - some people have had the battery die under 100,000 miles, and others have everything still working fine at 300,000 miles. With the Prius it seems that concerns about battery life are rather unwarranted. ~~~ ProfessorLayton Currently Nissan Leafs can be bought here in the Bay for about 7k at under 50K miles, with 80%+ capacity on them. Depreciation on those things is crazy due to the tax subsidy, and the fact that better electric cars are coming to market. I'd consider getting one of those when prices tank even further thanks to the Model 3, and upcoming Lea,f to supplement my hybrid. Incidentally, I don't think battery life concerns are completely unwarranted - my hybrid's battery failed, and if it weren't for the extended emissions warranty in CA, I'd have been SOL. People seem to be aware of this, and it is evident in used hybrid prices, which many times cost about the same, and sometimes less that it's conventional counterpart. Due to its severe depreciation, I believe that if a Leaf's battery failed outside the warranty, the car is totalled. ~~~ technofiend I think that may also be a little bit buyer's remorse as people discover what exactly a sub-100 mile range means in practice. According to Wikipedia 80% charge implies a 66 mile range. However that's for a _new_ battery, so you'll have to assume a further haircut as the battery ages since to baby the batteries you're supposed to only charge them to 80% of their remaining capacity, whatever it may be. My wife would normally be the ideal Leaf consumer - most of her jobs are no more than 10 miles from our house. But still that's 20 miles out of a pool of 66 before she a) turns on the air conditioner, b) runs any errands, c) runs into any traffic that delays her, and d) forgets to charge the car at home or finds the charger full at her grocery store. The Leaf comes with a contingency planning overhead cars with longer ranges do not and that has to factor into any future decisions; could my wife take a job say 20 miles from home? Maybe but any of the factors listed above could easily result in a dead battery tow. If I mapped that into my own use case even as an inner city dweller the short legs on the Leaf would preclude some practical applications I have now when a car with say 50 more miles of range would handily meet. If the Leaf ever gets to 150 miles new, which implies 120 mile range when new @ 80% charge and 96 miles when the battery has lost 20% of its capacity (also @ 80% charge) that would be workable for inner city driving with the air conditioning on and enough reserves for the unexpected. ~~~ ProfessorLayton I agree with the limited milage being a huge constraint. Deep charging and discharging would severely degrade a battery's lifespan. Therefore all cars - From Model S to Prius - limit the battery's SOC to about 20-80% (Varies by chemistry and car model). The user may see 0-100%, but that is merely in regards to the usable energy available. So a Leaf reporting 80 miles of range is already taking into account degradation and provisioning. ------ caseyf7 Expect more and lower prices as the non-autopilot cars get traded in for cars with second-gen autopilot hardware. It will be interesting to see how Tesla owners handle cars with an iPhone upgrade cycle. [https://www.slashgear.com/teslas-elon-musk- promises-12-18-mo...](https://www.slashgear.com/teslas-elon-musk- promises-12-18-month-hardware-upgrades-24472698) ~~~ Animats Maybe not. The "second-gen" autopilot hardware is just more cameras and a new radar. No LIDAR yet. Tesla is struggling to get back the performance of their own first-generation autopilot, hopefully without the "crashes into stationary objects partially blocking lane" feature. Tesla is at least one or two more hardware upgrades from Google/Waymo level performance. ~~~ edsheeran I've yet to see one Google/Waymo car doing 90mph on the highway with Lane Keeping Assist Level 3 Autopilot. Not ten, not five, or even one. Tesla has thousands of them doing it as you read this. ~~~ foolfoolz and how does that make their computer vision hardware any better? ------ calcifer Ah, "pre-owned"... The soft language [0] version of "secondhand". You see, poor people buy secondhand cars and ewww that's icky and definitely not meant for the temporarily embarrassed millionaires looking for a Tesla. [0] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h67k9eEw9AY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h67k9eEw9AY) ~~~ jaclaz Or actually "used", I would say that "Would you buy a pre-owned car from this man?" doesn't sound as good as the original. ------ untangle Their list: [https://www.tesla.com/preowned?sort=price\|asc](https://www.tesla.com/preowned?sort=price\|asc) I guess the cars in the $30K's are sold. ~~~ r00fus According to EV-CPO a few under 40k still available: [https://ev-cpo.com/hunter/](https://ev-cpo.com/hunter/)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Coroutines in C, revisited - codr4life http://vicsydev.blogspot.com/2016/11/coroutines-in-c-revisited.html ====== markpapadakis This is a C++ coroutines framework( [https://github.com/markpapadakis/coros- fibers](https://github.com/markpapadakis/coros-fibers) ), but its trivial to “port” it to C. I ‘ve also written a few things about coroutines and fibers(e.g [https://medium.com/software-development-2/coroutines-and- fib...](https://medium.com/software-development-2/coroutines-and-fibers-why- and-when-5798f08464fd#.qz59082w0) and [https://medium.com/software- development-2/high-performance-s...](https://medium.com/software- development-2/high-performance-services-using-coroutines- ac8e9f54d727#.1s8lfoswb) ). Coroutines based on stack manipulation(as opposed to simple FSMs) are extremely powerful and are particularly useful for implementing fair scheduling across runnable ‘processes’ and concurrent execution contexts. Fair scheduling in particular can be really important in the domain of distributed systems that need to process potentially long-running and/or expensive request which would otherwise stall processing other cheaper requests indefinitely. Combined with async I/O, this gives near optimal concurrency and resources utilisation. Coroutines are often associated (literally and figuratively) with futures/promises. See SeaStar framework for a great implementation of those ideas. ~~~ marktangotango >> Coroutines based on stack manipulation(as opposed to simple FSMs) are extremely powerful and are particularly useful for implementing fair scheduling across runnable ‘processes’ and concurrent execution contexts. So, isn't this what threads are for? This is not a snarky comment, genuine interest: but isn't this what the OS scheduler and thread implementations are meant to do, and implementing essentially ones own threads and scheduling is the epitomy of 'reinventing the wheel'? Specifically, when going down the route of using a coroutine to essentially duplicate functionality provided by native threads, is there any performance advantage? My understanding is that, nowadays, OS threads and schedulers are very highly optimize for performance. Other than being able to write concurrent code with yield() and resume(), is there really any reason to NOT use OS level primitives? ~~~ markpapadakis That's a good question, and the answer has to do with, obviously, the cost of spawning OS threads/processes, context-switching among them, and how all that affects caches (cache hit/miss ratio dominates most workloads nowadays, more so than actual CPU instructions execution). Context switching can be cost on average 30micros of CPU overhead, but can reach as high as 1500micros. (You can reduce that by pinning threads to core, but the savings will likely get may be as much as 20% - maybe). Thankfully now, at least on Linux, AFAIK, a context switch doesn't result in a TLB flush - back in the day that was quite expensive. Whenever the OS scheduler needs to context switch, it needs to save old state(including regs), and restore another state and perform some other kind of book-keeping. This is more expensive and convoluted than doing it yourself -- you also usually don't need to care for all possible registers, so you can reducing switching costs by e.g not caring about SSE registers. Apps that create too many threads are constantly fighting for CPU time - you will end up wasting a lot of cpu cycles practically cycling between threads. Another hidden cost that can severely impact server workloads is that, after your thread has been switched out, even if another process becomes runnable, it will need to wait in the kernel's run queue until a CPU core is available for it. Linux kernels are often compiled with HZ=100, which means that processes are given time slices of 10ms. If your thread has been switched out, but becomes runnable almost immediately, and there are 2 thread before your threads before it in the run queue waiting for CPU time, your thread may have to wait upto 20ms in a worse case scenario to get CPU time. Depending on the average length of the run queue (reflected in sys.load average), and how length threads typically run before getting switched out again, this can considerable affect performance. Also, kernels don't generally do a good job at respecting CPU affinity -- even on an idle system. You can control that yourself. If you are going to represent ‘jobs’ or tasks as threads, and you need potentially 100s or 1000s of those, it just won’t scale - the overhead is too high. If you control context-switching on your application (in practice that’s about saving and restoring a few registers) -- cooperative multitasking -- you can have a lot more control on how that works, when its appropriate to switch etc, and the overhead is far lower. Oh, and on average its 2.5-3x more expensive to context switch when using virtualisation. ~~~ marktangotango >> If you are going to represent ‘jobs’ or tasks as threads, and you need potentially 100s or 1000s of those, it just won’t scale - the overhead is too high. This seems to be an indictment against containerization (ie docker, kubernetes, etc). How can a single machine, even with containers, scale out if this is true? Do people advocating docker and similar technologies not understand or recognize that their containers should only utilize y threads (where y = (total threads per machine)/(number of containers hosted on that machine))? I personally have never heard this mentioned as a consideration when deploying docker, for example. ~~~ ecnahc515 The advantages of containers are multidimensional. The benefit of running multiple processes on a single node is not solely to increase utilization of a given machine but to also gain advantages in deployment, etc. Schedulers can take what's being mentioned here into account. You can say "I need at least 2 cores but would like up to 8" or "I need guaranteed 8 cores, evict lower priority containers if necessary" to ensure your containers aren't fighting over resources . You can also classify machines for certain types of workloads and then specify certain containers should run on a particular class of node. Not all container platforms handle this, but Kubernetes does at least. ~~~ smarterclayton And as we add improved resource management and tuning to Kubernetes you gain those improvements without having to change your deployment pipeline - just like when a compiler gets better you get more performance for "free". ------ btrask I just created a submission for libco, which I think is the best (fastest and most portable) library for coroutines in C. It's great, I wish it got more love. [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13199581](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13199581) ~~~ codr4life I'm curious, how is libco faster or more portable than the approach described in this post? ~~~ byuu It's not, they're two separate things. Unfortunately, nobody can agree on terminology for this stuff. I try not to ever use the word 'coroutine' anymore because of this. libco is what I call a cooperative threading library. It allocates a stack for each thread. This means that thread A can call six functions deep into helper functions, and suspend in the middle of a helper function, and then resume right back at that same point. Thus, you program libco very similarly to how you do preemptive threading, only you don't ever need any locks, and you have to do your own scheduling (which can be as simple as "co_call and co_return", or "co_jump" in assembly terms.) The CORO #define wrappers in the article is what I would call a very simple state machine. There is no thread, there is no state machine, there is no user-space context switching going on. You only get the call/ret style behavior, and you can't ret from a subroutine called inside of it. It's far, far less useful. However, when you can get away with it, CORO will be about ten times faster on average. libco is optimized as much as possible with pure assembler. On ARM, it's literally three instructions. On x86, it's ten. The entirety of the burden is because modern CPUs do not enjoy having their stack pointer changed. Go to older CPUs and the overhead drops substantially, but few people are coding on a 68000 anymore. This also means that libco is _not_ ISO C. It requires an assembly implementation or a platform that lets you poke at jmpbuf from setjmp/longjmp to work. In practice, it'll work anywhere you'd reasonably want. x86, amd64, ppc, ppc64, arm, mips, sparc, alpha; Windows, macOS, Linux, *BSD, Haiku; etc have all been tested. And even if you find something crazy obscure, you only have to write about twenty lines of code to port it. The magic of libco is that it's about 100 times faster than preemptive threading would be for the context switching overhead. So when you actually need subroutines, and when you don't want to be swamped in locks/semaphores/critical sections, it can eliminate giant swaths of nested state machines (switch tables) by keeping all that state inside each local stack frame, transparently and out of your codebase. Deeply nested state machines are a serious pain in the ass to reason about and maintain, trust me. Also ... both of these methods have a serious flaw (as does preemptive threading): serialization. If you want to save the state of your program in the middle of working, and restore to that position later (think save states in an emulator) ... it'll be a bit tricky with libco. But since the state is hidden by the #define, it'll be absolutely impossible with CORO, unless you redesigned it to use external state, which would make it even clunkier to use. In conclusion: both complement each other. I feel C++20 or whatever should add CORO-style stackless state machine wrappers to the language for convenience. But it should definitely leave stack-based cooperative threading out, because that can easily be done as a library. (It can include library functions for that purpose, but it doesn't need language-level primitives.) There's a hundred cooperative threading libraries, by the way. My aim with libco was to make a library that has four functions (co_create, co_delete, co_active, co_switch) and zero types/structs. As simple and fast as possible, supplying as many optimized backends as possible. Then let people build on top of that. The downside is most people still choose to write their own libraries from scratch, so there's a lot of wheel reinventing going on. ~~~ naasking > It's not, they're two separate things. Unfortunately, nobody can agree on > terminology for this stuff. There is standard terminology though. Coroutines allow arbitrarily nested calls back and forth. So-called "stackful" coroutines are the only possibility in C. Other languages perform a program translation into continuation-passing style to support stackless coroutines with the same semantics. CORO falls under a class of abstractions known as "generators". You can think of it like a degenerate coroutine limited to a single call level, but I don't think conflating the terminology like this is useful. ~~~ codr4life You got it backwards though; all the name means is the subroutine has multiple entry points for suspending and resuming execution, which can be used to implement nonpreemptive threads, generators and other abstractions. ------ clarkmoody How does this work compare with libdill[1]? [1] [http://libdill.org/](http://libdill.org/) ~~~ drvdevd At a glance this just looks like a short, simple coroutine implementation/hack using C macros, whereas libdill does a lot more to extend C syntax in similar manner, but in a much more comprehensive way (I believe with the intention of matching some of Go's concurrency mechanisms). The author compares this to Duff's device so the comparison seems apt. I would pick libdill for any serious program and keep this on hand as a C snippet in Vim or $EDITOR. [edit] I should say this could be used in a "serious" program too, but it's nice and short in a way that looks like a great snippet to me ------ zserge I've recently made a similar protothread/coroutine library for embedded systems where local continuations can be either setjmp or goto or case labels. Nothing fancy, but perhaps someone find it useful: [https://github.com/zserge/pt](https://github.com/zserge/pt) ------ enqk This is a rediscovery of contiki's protothreads: [http://contiki.sourceforge.net/docs/2.6/a01802.html](http://contiki.sourceforge.net/docs/2.6/a01802.html) ~~~ drakehutner Which afaik is based on the publication of Simon Tatham: [http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/coroutines.html](http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/coroutines.html) Who directly references good old duffs device. The title seems to acknowledge the existence of said article, but I didn't find any reference. ~~~ codr4life I know, I know. Why is it so important that someone else did something conceptually similar once upon a time? Can't you see the value in standing on their shoulders and try to reach further in some direction? We're all in the same boat here, you can't own ideas. In this case I was aiming to simplify API and usage while keeping the performance, and I feel I managed to take at least a few steps in that direction. ~~~ scandox Well it is useful for others to know the history and have other references. I am sure it is not intended to diminish your work. ~~~ drakehutner Exactly that! Sorry if my comment came across like an insult. Wasn't intended as such. Maybe it was just me hoping to find a direct improvement of Tathams implementation. Which I would call "quirky" at best. Your implementation seems to be much more "useable" and understandable in comparison. After reading through more of your library I must say, I like it's style. ~~~ codr4life None of this is personal to me, I have no idea where the inspiration came from; I'm just trying to share the beauty I see in the concepts. So I get a bit frustrated with anything that steals focus from my mission, like history lessons. I don't really care who thought of what first. Sorry if that came across as hurt feelings, there is no conflict here. I'm glad you like the humble beginnings of the library I've always been wishing for :) ~~~ drakehutner This makes your work even more interesting. I don't know if you read the original Mail [1] in which Tom Duff shared his Device, but at the end he's mentioning that he had an idea for something like coroutines: > It amazes me that after 10 years of writing C there are still little corners > that I haven't explored fully. (Actually, I have another revolting way to > use switches to implement interrupt driven state machines but it's too > horrid to go into.) He later replied to Simon Tatham, that his coroutines actually where those "horrid" ideas. Obviously you must had some thoughts similar to those two. Kudos for that. You seem to to have a deep understanding of the concepts that make the C language (and how to twist them) ;). [1]: [http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/duffs- device.html](http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/duffs-device.html) ------ c-smile That appears as a variant of Simon Tatham idea: [http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/coroutines.html](http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/coroutines.html) Just in case, I've made C++ variant of it: [https://www.codeproject.com/Tips/29524/Generators- in-C](https://www.codeproject.com/Tips/29524/Generators-in-C)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
What do you think about my idea? - toutouastro my idea is a advertising platform for facebook : I want facebook page owners to make money out of their pages : they submit their pages for advertisers and advertisers come search the submitted pages they choose one then the page have the submit a link to the advertiser every day twice for example(I am still thinking about this part) or the page give admin access to "adsbot" so it can share by itself then the page get paid monthly/weekly/per click (I am still working on this) so : 1 - is it profitable ? 2 - is there any competition right now ? 3 - should the page be paid monthly/weekly/per click ? ====== sareiodata You just described "Sponsored Stories" from Facebook, just that you make it harder to target your audience. Why pay a Page Owner when I can pay Facebook and get access to exact users with my story. Also take into account, that if you have a ton of Page Likes, when you publish a story, it will only appear on a small number of users walls... Also why in your right mind would want to build your business on someone's else platform when their exact business model is the same as yours... advertisement. ~~~ toutouastro totally right ! ------ AxisOfEval If facebook does whatever you are proposing, don't you think you'll be blown out of the water?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Jack in the Belfry - pepys http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n17/terry-eagleton/jack-in-the-belfry ====== pepys Just want to point out two truly outstanding eccentric English names mentioned in the article. Straight out of Dickens: Urania Wallop: "Not long after the botched elopement/abduction, Urania ordered that her son be strapped to his bed." Coulson Wallop: "[Jane Austen] was, however, less impressed by his dim-witted younger brother Coulson, whom she regarded as a cad given to drunken habits and indelicate language." ~~~ gumby "Wallop’s uncle had been elected master of Magdalene College, Cambridge, but according to one contemporary observer was completely illiterate."	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Can Y Combinator find its next $1B company in a hardware startup? - jumpyjack http://fortune.com/2015/09/30/y-combinator-hardware-unicorn/ ====== jumpyjack Good idea? Worthwhile for entrepreneurs?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN:What's on your list of good programming principles? - sendos I'm trying to set up a list of good programming principles to give to new employees.<p>Of course, there are things like DRY (Don't Repeat Yourself), etc.<p>I just wanted to tap into the collective wisdom and experience of HN to see what you guys think are the top programming principles.<p>Note that this is intended for non-CS majors, i.e. engineers who code as part of their work, so even if some things are obvious to CS majors, still list them here if you think they are helpful ====== bartonfink Logs are lifesavers. If you have to figure out what the hell your code is actually doing, you're much better off if you know there's a detailed log in place to search. Theoretically you can get the same information by attaching a debugger, but logs are so much easier to use that it's really no contest. It's much better to log too much information than too little. Filtering a crowded log file for a specific piece of information is a very tractable problem, whereas finding that same information in an empty log file is obviously impossible. You're even better off with a proper logging library that has different levels, because that can do a lot of the filtering for you. All too often in my career, I've had to track down a bug only to find that the piece of information I need just isn't in the logs or is otherwise swallowed up (for instance, if an exception is wrapped improperly in another). This is a pain in the ass, because it usually means that I have to not only debug a problem but now I have to guess how to recreate it as well. If there were a greppable string in a log file, I'd at least have some idea where the code got to before the problem surfaced, but without that clue, I'm just going on app behavior. Seriously, log everything you can, because you never know what piece of information will save someone hours of debugging later. tl; dr - log everything you can because it may very well save your ass down the road. ------ mmccomb Code Formatting - when working in a team on a shared code base it'll aid productivity greatly if you establish a set of formatting standards and stick by them. Ideally you can translate this to an IDE template and automate formatting. ------ mcphilip No magic numbers [http://stackoverflow.com/questions/47882/what-is-a-magic- num...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/47882/what-is-a-magic-number-and- why-is-it-bad) ------ sidcool Modularise Abstract Code, test, revise, functional test, Load test, Performance test Peer testing Comment Simple is beautiful	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
A Long Way to Robot Domination: Will AI Have Human Rights? - likhuta https://lawless.tech/a-long-way-to-robot-domination-will-ai-have-human-rights/ ====== basicplus2 No robot should have any rights considered until it is self aware	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Need help with distributed application infrastucture design - herbst Hey HN,<p>I hope some smart brains here can lead me to the right direction. I am looking for a simple yet robust data replication and transfering mechanism for a web application i am writing.<p>The main things i need:<p>1) Replicate login & configuration data to X nodes (email servers)<p>2) Count emails by status (dropped, forwarded, ...) [statistics]<p>3) Save (some) emails back to the Web application [logging]<p>4) 2 & 3 are A LOT of data. It must be able to handle that without losing any<p>The guys from the postgres IRC made me realize that multimaster is not only overkill (and many people are afraid of running them) but also simply not the right solution.<p>1) is easy using Postgres master slave replication<p>2 & 3 however are not so easy in my head. And 4 is kind of out my knowledge scope.<p>I've thought about the following 3 implementations:<p>a) Doing a Master-Master replication. Having the secondary master doing the hard work. Like replicating to others, plus receiving statistics (directly over network). I am not sure how smart it is to use the same database, even more in such a approach.<p>b) Doing statistics (and most likely also the email logs) in a seperate database, that provides a thin API my application can query & cache. Statistics are everywhere in my interface, so i would likely still replicate/cache the relevant data back to my main application. But the heavy writing does not directly impact my web application.<p>c) Maybe using something like logstash to handle the information load and drip the relevant info out into the web applications database.<p>I realize this topic is just hard, however i feel like i am missing something obvious. ====== vlahmot I don't have any specific experience with emails but any time I need to move a lot of data around I go with Apache Kafka and Apache Flume. Write all of your emails into a kafka topic from your webapp. Read from the topic to do processing. Use flume to sync results back to your webapp db. 1) For this I would probably use something like Chef/Ansible but I don't know the first thing about configuring email servers. You could have something that wakes up, reads the latest config off a topic, and then applies that config via a config management tool. 2) You can throw Apache Spark on to the kafka stream to calculate these aggregations. 3) Flume can read the emails and then save them back to wherever you need (this is typically s3/postgres for me). Flume can scale out over the kafka topic naturally using the same consumer group id. I like this approach because you can scale it cheaply and easily by starting with kinesis streams instead of kafka if you don't have the ops resources to run kafka and running spark in stand alone mode until you need a cluster. With spark you can do your statistics in there (streaming over a time window or batch) and then sink them over to your stats db. With the flume/kafka combo you can treat kafka as the "channel" and you get some nice transaction functionality out of flume that makes handling failures a breeze. It does take some tooling/monitoring to run confidently and the whole apache "big data" ecosystem is daunting at first but its well worth it in my opinion. ~~~ herbst This sounds super interesting. I never worked with any of these, but this sounds more or less like what i need. Kudos ------ dozzie So basically, 1) is like keeping account related data in LDAP with per-MTA replicas, 2) is like collecting statistics, and 3) is like forwarding e-mail messages to another system to handle there? Did I get that correctly? And what is 4) "A LOT of data"? ~~~ herbst I was hoping it is clear enough :) 1) Is actually a Web application, but yeah #1 is kind of clear 3) Is only logging as well. So not time critical, emails are handled by the "nodes" themself. Reason i mention them outside of statistics is because statistics are just a few numbers, this is actual data and may need to be threated differently. 4) It should handle up to a few thousand emails per second.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Wine on Windows - handpickednames http://www.kegel.com/wine/wow.html ====== black_puppydog Being able to run one of the finest pieces of OSS software might finally put Windows into the 21st century! :D ------ fithisux Does this build create wine utilities on windows?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Top10SQLPerformanceTips - neotyk http://forge.mysql.com/wiki/Top10SQLPerformanceTips ====== wanderr Take these tips with a grain of salt. MySQL query performance tuning requires a lot more nuance than a list like this indicates. For example: 2\. Use LOAD DATA instead of INSERT For raw insert speed this is usually true, however if you care about things like table locks and replication, LOAD DATA can be harmful.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Thunderbird "papercuts" bug fixes - some continuing UX development - dbcooper https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird/Papercuts ====== dbcooper "Papercut" is Mozilla's term for annoyances and inconsistencies experienced by users when interacting with an app. 6 devs (so far) plan to fix 5 of these each over the next year, and improve UX. More details here: [https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/mozilla.d...](https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/mozilla.dev.apps.thunderbird/DhH1wDgfvi8)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Programmers solve MIT’s 20-year-old cryptographic puzzle - doener https://www.csail.mit.edu/news/programmers-solve-mits-20-year-old-cryptographic-puzzle ====== greenyoda Extensive discussion: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19782634](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19782634) ------ doener Description of the LCS35 Time Capsule Crypto-Puzzle by Ronald L. Rivest, April 4, 1999: [https://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/lcs35-puzzle- description...](https://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/lcs35-puzzle- description.txt) ------ doener Timelock puzzles and timedrelease Crypto (1996): [https://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/pubs/RSW96.pdf](https://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/pubs/RSW96.pdf)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The Android Market - slackerIII http://www.tomkleinpeter.com/2010/10/12/the-android-market/ ====== Nemisis7654 Yeah, I completely agree with this post. I recently published my first application to the Android Market (last month) and was pretty shocked with how little the Developer Console tells me. I had expected a lot more analytical data. Hopefully, as they continue to improve the OS, they will improve the Marketplace as well. (Side: I am still waiting to even hear another thing about the Desktop version that was demoed at the Google IO this year.) ------ ESchmidtSeesYou To anyone who thinks: that a very small team creating an entire, enormously complex operating system, with unending goals for platforms improvements, that has already been successfully iterating at an extreme pace, is up against enormous competition from Apple and Microsoft, and is playing the long game for the future of mobile and computing as a whole... is really ignoring these extremely common complaints and resting on its laurels... ...uh, really? There are many very concrete reasons to believe they know about the vast majority of these issues and have respective solutions addressing them somewhere in their product roadmap. (ie, major UI revision in Gingerbread, along with optimization for tablets.) That, and they've been overwhelmingly successful so far, as Android phones now consistently outsell the iPhone each quarter. ~~~ jessriedel > ...a very small team creating an entire, enormously complex operating > system... I don't think the size of the team is a defense against the OP's critique. Criticism of Google's handling of the Android market includes the decision about how much man-power to devote to it. This isn't a personal attack on the team members. ~~~ tvon If the team size is a problem, maybe we can hold a bake sale so Google can hire another engineer or two. ------ jamesaguilar Thinking about this a little, I can kind of understand why Amazon would consider entering this business. Even if Apple would allow it, probably no other company would invest significant resources into trying to unseat the Apple AppStore. You have to have some kind of leverage to beat a competitor like that. The situation is different with Android. Building a better app marketplace than the Android market is not exactly a very high bar to leap. ~~~ greyman Microsoft will also invest. ------ psychotik You could fill pages with things that can be improved on Android Market (most of which are available on the App Store). Most shortcoming are well documented - things that I would like to see personally: \- ability to publish what changed in an update \- track number of users who upgraded vs new users \- ability to search for apps and see reviews on <http://www.android.com/market/> (that website is practically useless) ~~~ veeti The market client also needs some improvement: for example, the search feature isn't very good. Searching for "ADW Launcher" brings up countless pages of themes for the ADW Launcher before showing the actual launcher app itself. ~~~ Nemisis7654 I completely agree with you. You would figure that a search giant would have a good search implementation in their Marketplace. ------ drivebyacct2 Ugh, so tired of reading these posts. Has everyone so quickly forgotten Google IO? They know there are problems with the Market, they plan on having them fixed for the release of Gingerbread, which according to rumors (which indicate the SDK will be out next week) could be very soon. ~~~ martythemaniak If anything, I think there should be far more of these posts, and have been thinking of compiling my own list on my blog. There has been no indication from Google that they think anything is wrong with the market or that they're planning to fix it. ~~~ drivebyacct2 ... What are you talking about? They have plans for a web interface that does the equivalent of app-to-phone like chrome-to-phone. They have acknowledged problems with app discovery and with the lack of a proper ranking system/algorithm. This was all discussed at Google IO when they announced JIT/Froyo. How can you say Google hasn't indicated there is a problem? I guess they're just planning a complete revamp/redo of the market for giggles? ~~~ bad_user Devs are in pain right now, and considering that Google does web apps for a living, it is actually quite mindbogglingly that the Marketplace sucks so badly. If they discussed these at Google IO, that's irrelevant: they should just deliver, everything else matters less. Another annoyance the article hasn't mentioned: my European country is not on their frickin' list (not even with the latest update) and I cannot upload priced apps, even though I can do that in Apple's iTunes store. I mean, WTF ?!? ~~~ drivebyacct2 > It is actually quite mindbogglingly that the Marketplace sucks so badly > [...] they should just deliver, everything else matters less. I agree, but I still don't agree with this... > There has been no indication from Google that they think anything is wrong > with the market or that they're planning to fix it.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Show HN: My seven minute workout timer evening project - lgsilver http://7-min.com/ ====== d0m OK, fine for _this_ time, but tomorrow, you do it instead of procrastinating and creating a web page about it : ) ------ baby You made hundreds of hackers move their ass for 7 minutes today. That is a huge accomplishment. ~~~ lgsilver This is the best compliment I've ever gotten. ~~~ camdykeman Just went through it on my iPhone. First, nicely done. The interface is clean, the progression bar is helpful. A few suggestions: It would be nice to have a bell go off both at the beginning and end of the rest period, so you don't miss the beginning of the next 30second sprint. On my phone I only hear a bell at the start of the rest period. I would also suggest displaying the graphic for the next exercise during the rest period. I work out regularly but I still didnt know what a "push up and twist" was so by the time I figured it out I had already missed 5-8 seconds of the sprint. Nice to see products like this generating conversation. Keep up the good work. ------ danso This is awesome. Just yesterday I was doing a 7-minute workout in my room, just because I was waiting for dinner to finish heating up. The main problem is that the standard timer app on iOS only acts as a stopwatch...so the final ten seconds of each interval, I'm watching the clock so that I can hit "Lap" and move on...this is awkward when I'm also wearing headphones to listen to music. What would be ideal for me is to have a simple timer that would alert me when the interval was done and automatically move on to the next one....like a repeating event on a calendar. I'm sure there's an app for that but I just didn't feel like downloading a bunch and doing trial and error. One more twist: I can't do all the exercises in the 7-min workout (as made famous in the NYT)...jumping jacks would annoy the shit out of the people below me. So I make up my own. A timer that would allow me to set up my own sequence would be fabulous. Anyway, this is just a longwinded way of saying that there's a need for a niche app here, and it would definitely be a fun coding project...I'm glad someone else thought of it first :) ~~~ kinleyd I've read a bit about high intensity training (tabata, hiit, crossfit, etc.) and there seems to be quite a good bit of evidence supporting their utility. The 7-minute workout may well fit in that same category. However, as an old fogie, I recall a craze back in the 70s and 80s called 5BX, which stood for 5 basic exercises, created by Swedish aircrew iirc. The reason I recalled it is the mention of rapid-style jumping jacks and push ups in the 7-minute workout. 5BX had increasingly quickened routines for jumping jacks (from a crouching position), sit-ups and push-ups (with claps thrown in as you completed each push-up). All of this worked very well in terms of actually toning your body, getting a good daily cardio workout, and a sense of fitness... until it did irreparable back and other damage to quite a few people. So just be careful, especially if the high intensity and the 7 minute time limit drives you to a regimen that gets anywhere close to a 5BX style work out in terms of quick, jerky movements. Personally, I've reverted to playing basketball like I did in my college days, with high intensity worked into it with repeated lay up, jump shot routines, etc. It's working great for cardio and overall body toning. I would like to do weights as well, as there is a body of evidence pointing to its value, but basketball is plenty far for me at this stage. ~~~ jamesaguilar According to the Wikipedia entry, the harm from 5BX was caused by the situp. Replace with crunches and you're good. ~~~ kinleyd Yes, that's a good catch. I think it was only late into the '80s that full sit-ups began to be deprecated. I did notice the 7-minute work out emphasizes abdominal crouches which is good. However, 5BX did also cause knee and elbow problems (thanks to the crouching jumping jacks and clap happy push-ups). I'd say watch out for routines involving jerky movements. ------ lgsilver Thanks again to everyone. I'm going to keep the webapp completely open and free as long as anyone is using it, and I'll definitely open up the code once I clean it a bit. If anyone would like to port it to IOS, I'd be happy to chat. lgsilver (at) gmail.com -- Lindsay ~~~ chasingtheflow Great work. Just needs a beautiful favicon so it can look great sitting in my bookmarks bar ;-) ~~~ aymeric And then he could use Tinycon to show the timer in the favicon (totally useless but a nice detail): <http://tommoor.github.io/tinycon/> ------ simonsarris This is wonderful. Can you make a way to skip sections? Living in a house built in 1840, jumping jacks are out of the question... (Also if you click rapidly on the 3/2/1 countdown you can _kind of_ skip things, because the app goes to all madness.) ~~~ ishansharma Same here. Just one or 2 clicks on countdown skipped loads of things and counter was all 18...20....15....14....17.... Using Firefox 21 on Win 7 ~~~ stedaniels I'm sorry but this is just a really poor execution of a simple idea. It was great to rush to market, but the timing is so totally out I find it completely unusable. This is on a Nexus 4 in Chrome. ~~~ kamakazizuru there is no "rush to market" on this - she just built a project for her own interest and shared it! Constructive criticism is good - but if you dont like it - dont use it ;) ~~~ Samuel_Michon Lindsay is a male. ~~~ kamakazizuru gotcha - hard to tell from the name - plus HN doesnt show you the gender of the poster :) (and it doesnt need to FWIW) ------ jrvarela56 Great idea, you could make a pretty cool app out of this: let people create routines by letting them associate pictures with exercise names and amount of seconds. They could then create workouts by creating a list of exercises and rest periods and play their routing with the timer you created. Does this exist? I want one. ~~~ garrettgottlieb I agree that for the best results, changing it up (also called Muscle Confusion - <http://athletics.wikia.com/wiki/Muscle_Confusion_Principle>) is also necessary. Instead of making your own workout (which most people are not qualified to do), we've built an app that asks for your goal, level, time, equipment, etc. to build you a personalized routine that changes as you go: [https://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/pumpup-workout- coach/id57307...](https://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/pumpup-workout- coach/id573070442?mt=8). The hardest part of working out shouldn't be coming up with the plan. ~~~ jacques_chester "Muscle Confusion" is not a legitimate physiological property. It seems to be a mutated misunderstanding of "accommodation", which is almost entirely a _nervous system_ phenomenon having almost little to do with adaptations in muscle tissue. The best form of "changing it up" for hypertrophy is to modulate standard acute training variables. Merely randomly changing exercises is ... not efficient. ~~~ nosequel I wish I could upvote this several times. Muscle confusion is a b.s. term, you need periodization in your training. Merely doing random shit everyday is going to work while your are a total newb, but you'll never get really strong that way. ------ freditup Ha ha, I decided to try the 7-min workout last night for the heck of it and I basically wanted something exactly like this. Nice job, it does its purpose perfectly. One small suggestion: Perhaps a louder audio cue for transitions between exercises in case you aren't looking at the screen. ------ chadcf That's good. Unless, of course, somebody comes up with 6-Minute workout timer. Then you're in trouble, huh? ~~~ oms1005 No! No, no, not 6! I said 7. Nobody's comin' up with 6. Who works out in 6 minutes? You won't even get your heart goin, not even a mouse on a wheel. ~~~ jpitz 7's the key number here. Think about it. 7-Elevens. 7 dwarves. 7, man, that's the number. 7 chipmunks twirlin' on a branch, eatin' lots of sunflowers on my uncle's ranch. You know that old children's tale from the sea. It's like you're dreamin' about Gorgonzola cheese when it's clearly Brie time, baby. Step into my office. ~~~ gknoy I only work out for prime numbered minutes, so 7 works very well. ;) ------ skennedy Works on mobile devices which is perfect when on the go. Give me a pause button so the timer doesn't go before I'm ready or make the clicking sound. Then I'll be at the site every day. ------ pjacobson Shameless plug: We built a workout app for iOS (PumpUp) that makes it easy to build a personalized workout routine for home, the gym, or on-the-go. You can customize things like equipment, goals, muscles, etc. Check it out if you're interested! ([https://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/pumpup-workout- coach/id57307...](https://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/pumpup-workout- coach/id573070442)) ------ alexshye Very cool! You got me off my butt and moving for 7 minutes and it was a great work break. A few notes for you and others: 1) There are a few that switch sides/legs and I would handle them differently. For the lunges and step-ups, I think alternating sides is good. For the side planks, I think it would be useful to give the other side a whole segment. Splitting it in half wouldn't be much of a workout. 2) This is awesome because for the most part, you can modulate the workout however you want. In fact, keeping a log of the number of pushups/situps/high knees/etc would be cool because people could see progress. This might be a nice extension for the site! 3) It may be good to balance things out as far as muscle groups go. Pushups are repeated multiple times, as are squat related exercises. It is important to balance these out with the muscles that oppose these exercises. 4) Even better (at least for me) would be to have a series for desk workers that open up your body. We spend so much time crouched forward that a series of exercises to counteract this would be awesome. Thanks and I hope you keep building on this! ~~~ phillmv I think it's implied that lunges and side planks are alternating; at least _I_ have a hard time doing much more than 15 secs per side plank. ~~~ JungleGymSam I am confused about it myself. I can do a 30 second side plank (35 seconds? Not so much.) so I've been doing two sets. ------ bzink I emailed a link to your 7 min workout timer to my girlfriend. This was her response. Nice job. "THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!!!! That's. The. Most. Ingenious. Thing. Ever. Now, I just have to bring my phone with me. Woohoo! When I play it on the computer it ticks down, my phones doesn't so I'll have to pay attention to it, which could be tricky, but that's sweet. Thanks!" ------ nthitz It seemed like most of the comments when the article was on HN were saying that this is not a very good workout... Having said that, cool site, looks great! ~~~ graywh This analysis of the workout was linked in the comments. [http://elsbethvaino.com/2013/05/should-you-do-a-newspaper- wo...](http://elsbethvaino.com/2013/05/should-you-do-a-newspaper-workout/) ------ BornInTheUSSR this is great, just what I was looking for after I read the article - for those confused by what this is [http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/09/the- scientific-7-mi...](http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/09/the- scientific-7-minute-workout/) ~~~ guelo And the requisite contrarian HN comments, <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5704485> ------ bgray I'd like to see the rest screen contain information about the next exercise. This would give time to prepare. ~~~ lgsilver You should see this at the bottom under the dots. I haven't optimized for small (under 13") screens, so it may be hidden. ~~~ bgray Ahh yes... I did miss that because of screen size. You should optimize for smaller screens. :) ------ donniefitz2 Okay, this is good. The only problem is that I'm out of excuses to actually not use it. ------ lgsilver You guys rock. Thanks for the comments. Setting workout lengths is actually already built-in, just have to add it to the UI (after work). ------ vishaldpatel Love it! The suspense is fantastic - it forces me to concentrate on the current exercise and not worry about whats coming up next. Really great! I hope you will add more exercises, more compound exercises, lots of body weight exercises, from beginner to advanced, logins, tracking.. etc.. etc.. all while keeping the core simplicity of it all intact! =) ------ neeharc This looks awesome. I'm going to start using it from tomorrow. I'd love to see more intervals like 10 min, 15 min, 20 min. ~~~ therandomguy We are living in tomorrow. Do it now. ------ zhs So funny, I just started designing something similar a few days ago, here is a shot of the dashboard [http://dribbble.com/shots/1067433-Flat- Workout/attachments/1...](http://dribbble.com/shots/1067433-Flat- Workout/attachments/131665) ~~~ ShawnBird That looks great! When did Dribbble get so huge? That is less of a dribbble and more of a splllash. ~~~ zhs Thanks man, yeah you can now attach full files on dribbble. ------ sharmanaetor Bug Report: Clicking the initial countdown clock 2-3 times messes up the entire timer. ~~~ HaloZero Confirmed this on Chrome, the behavior is strange. ------ mcgwiz Nice job. I don't want to presume anything. Did you purposefully shorten the workout from that described in the ACSM article? It indicated 30 seconds on and 10 seconds off. (Your total duration variable should be 480--don't ask me how they added that up to "7 minutes"!) This has lead to some confusion in the comments here. And, although their intervals are somewhat arbitrary, and asserting this routine is "scientific" is debatable to begin with, it would be more accurate. Again, great job. ------ kschults Nice job! Little bit of feedback: 1\. The images don't update until after the first tick of the new exercise. It would be nice if the updated when the rest screen changes to the new exercise screen with the timer and the text. 2\. It would be cool if for exercises like the side plank (I think that's the only one in this set), where you hold something on each side, it gave you a halfway warning to tell you that it's time to turn over. 3\. The rest period at the end isn't really necessary. ~~~ NatW It would be nice to have a sound option, too - to just say the exercise name when it starts - so you don't need to look at your computer all the time. ------ freefrancisco I love it, thank you! I just tried it now. I have one suggestion, at the end when it's time for side plank, it is not clear when you should switch sides. I thought I would rest, and then the timer would tell me to do the other side, but at this time the timer was done. It would be better if the timer indicated when to switch sides, or had two segments, one for each side. Other than that, it was perfect! ------ xanadohnt This is really great! I was telling my fiancé about this workout just today. I read the NYT article but it was very sparse on details. Where can I find more info? About the research, more details about the workout itself (for example, during intervals is it full-on 100% all the effort I can muster, how many reps am I aiming for, is it done every day), etc? Thanks for this. I'll give it a try in about an hour! ~~~ npongratz I believe this was the paper on which the NYT article was based: [http://journals.lww.com/acsm- healthfitness/Fulltext/2013/050...](http://journals.lww.com/acsm- healthfitness/Fulltext/2013/05000/HIGH_INTENSITY_CIRCUIT_TRAINING_USING_BODY_WEIGHT_.5.aspx) ~~~ xanadohnt Excellent. Thanks for the link! ------ looki I do wonder, what number of 7 minute workouts per week is appropriate? I'm clueless, really - I've heard that you should not work out more than once in two days, and to me it does make sense to apply this rule here, since it advertizes itself as full workout. But yeah, I'm not really sure - it would be great if someone could elaborate. PS The site is great - simple but very useful. ------ lgsilver Hi everyone. I made some updates today based on your awesome feedback: 1.) You can now change the length of the workout 2.) Sounds now work (as well as they can) in IOS 3.) Changed duration of the breaks to 10 seconds no matter how long the workout 4.) Added a sound-effect to tell you to switch on exercises that need it 5.) Made some UI tweaks to improve the look Thanks for making my week. ------ Casseres I'm using a slow Internet connection, so I notice when transitioning to a new workout, it shows the old workout picture for a second or two before the new workout picture loads. Perhaps you can load it during the rest period and just have it hidden? P.S.: Great job! And great website idea! ------ bdcs Your facebook link is broken, it is (<https://www.facebook.com/lindo>) and should be (<https://www.facebook.com/Lindo>). Notice the capitalized 'L' ------ RRRA Awesome! What would be nice is a choice to confirm between exercises so you can hit spacebar to continue and a multiplier for the speed of the tick. I'm not sure I can do 1 push up/sec for half a minute as a first training session. :P ------ BhavdeepSethi Here is a link to do all these exercises properly: [http://lifehacker.com/these-12-videos-show-the-proper- form-f...](http://lifehacker.com/these-12-videos-show-the-proper-form- for-a-7-minute-ful-499199366) ------ jonthepirate I forwarded this program to my coworker when I saw it on HN yesterday. Now, I'm going to forward him this link... he refuses to go to the gym because he's too busy so hopefully this will help him kickstart some fitness in his life. ------ harshhpareek On Chrome on Win8, the background is white, but Firefox and on Dolphin browser on my Nexus 10, the background is black. You probably meant to keep a black background (eg. Workout timer on the start page is invisible on my chrome) ------ daveelkan If it had the amusingly dramatic music and crazy horn between sets like this video the I would definitely use it. <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRni0ctIeFE> ------ krsgoss Great work! I tried the workout for the first time after a run this afternoon... it kicked my butt! As I was following along on the ipad I was thinking a simple app would be perfect for this. Love the implementation and visuals! ------ Otiel You should specify a different tone for the last 3 "bips". We can't be looking the screen 100 percent of the time, so a different "bip" to indicate that the end of the current countdown would be a good addition imo. ------ MarlonPro why routine start at 26 sec mark and rest at 8 sec? Some don't want it but I really like to anticipate what's next, like in this app <http://7minworkoutapp.com/> ------ guest This has pretty pictures. I built a command line version: for i in `seq 16`; do echo -ne '\007' && sleep 30 && echo -ne '\007' && sleep 1 && echo -ne '\007' && sleep 10; done ------ KMBredt After the 1st excercise it starts at 7 seconds rest and then 26 seconds for the next excercises (Chrome/Win). I also wonder why the images or better the whole site isn't responsive? I would also add a link to one of the sources. ------ stigi "seven minutes of steady discomfort" \- [http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/09/the- scientific-7-mi...](http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/09/the- scientific-7-minute-workout/) ------ enormace I'm wrecked! Should be called the 1 minute work out :-) Nice idea and love the way you implemented it with the simple graphics on top of the countdown. The dots idea is also cool. Well done! ------ vemprala It is splendid, something I was looking for. You could now concentrate for a better UI/phone app. A suggestion, You can also look for customizing/substituting workouts for the exact duration. ------ coherentpony I think it would be clearer if the counter was not behind the person. ------ dooq Great! Bookmarked! Feature request: a nice sound when each section is finished. Sometimes I'm not looking at the screen while doing the exercise, so a sound marking the section changes would be nice. ------ pacomerh Short exercise routines are a hit in today's world of busy people. I love this thanks. Still feel sad that we have to opt for these things in order to get our asses up. ------ rexreed This is great! Although I'm not quite sure the pace of the tasks. For example, for push ups, is it down on one beat and up on the next or one complete pushup per beat? ~~~ dancesdrunk With interval training you try and do as many as possible within the time period, not a specific amount or to the beat. ------ kumar_navneet Many people involve themselves in weight training and cardio exercises because of which they miss out on ground exercises. I am sure this app will help them a lot. ------ victormier To all programmers, please: get out of your room and run outside for a while. Taking a breath of fresh air feels much better than sweating in a closed space. ------ mcg2124 This is GREAT. Any way that it could be purchased for download? I am headed to the Congo and won't have internet. Thanks! ------ miamidesign I'm looking forward to trying this out, most of the exercises mentioned in the Times article are of great benefit. ------ daninfpj I was going to make an app for this. You beat me to it, and it's pretty good, no reason for me to bother now. ------ adjohn This is great, thanks! I'd like to hear a ding or some audio notification at the end of each section. ------ thisisandyok I was actually thinking about doing a project like this earlier today. Thanks for saving me the effort ------ jordank Would love to make the URL bar disappear in mobile Safari. Love the idea, I will do this workout now. ------ tsumnia Nice work, just tried it out. One suggestion would be to add a Switch pop-up if you run into exercises like Side Plank. ------ OriginalAT I really do hate you right now. But I do actually see great value in this. Thanks for making this! ------ netforay From last 3 days I was thinking about this only. Instead I thought of doing it as Android App. Cool. ------ poissonpie nice work on the site......cheeky bit of self promotion for my iphone tabata timer app [https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/tabata-hiit- timer/id44160046...](https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/tabata-hiit- timer/id441600468?mt=8) ------ readme Awesome project. I will be using it. Although I have to second others.. It'd be nice to choose my exercises. ------ 404error Once you are comfortable doing this routine I would highly recommend the Insanity Workout. ------ duaneb One nitpick, I think the social aspects should disappear after 15 seconds of no events. ------ lee94josh Oh man if I could customize this, it would be perfect. Very well done though. ------ mansigandhi Just curious, why 7 minutes? ~~~ jrvarela56 This post is based on this article: [http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/09/the- scientific-7-mi...](http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/09/the- scientific-7-minute-workout/) ------ Alterlife I didn't know what a wall sit was, so I looked it up ( <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_sit> ). According to wkiipedia, it's safety is disputed: might be injure someone with bad knees... something to keep in mind. ~~~ arianvanp As a tall person (200cm) . I wasn't able to do wallsits (or walk stairs) when I was in puberty. It hurts the knees. Speaking of knee injury. Practice squat techniques very well. IT might look easy, but doing them well takes a lot of practice. Your knees shouldn't go further than your toes, otherwise it's really bad for your knees! ------ ga2arch i don't get the excitement for this 7 minutes workout, can't you just go in the gym for 1 hour 3 times a week and do some squats ? aside from this the site looks good, simple and to the point, props for it. ~~~ andyana I do tabata most weekday mornings before work to get my body moving. This looks much more fun, and it doesn't replace my gym time, which is after work and an hour in duration. ------ devias Awesome! Thank you!! The last two should be repeated twice though (one for each arm) ------ anandpdoshi I was wondering who is going to make this first. Salute to you :D ------ trgraglia Pretty similar to the Android app 'Relaxed Abs'. Awesome job! ------ andreros My only complaint is that it doesn't tick on my phone. ------ xweb That is beautiful! Love the art design. ------ jvuonger Awesome! Does the job, keep it simple! ------ eyko Thank you for doing this. I will use! ------ film42 I love this, thank you so much! ------ wastedbrains setting custom times would be nice I like to do 30 seconds with 10 seconds rest ------ whattheken This is awesome. Good job! ------ nbmm How is this useful? Do you stand and exercise in front of your computer or tablet computer? ~~~ lgsilver Yes. ------ photorized Simple and elegant. ------ foltz Thank you so much! ------ indubitably Pretty Javascript. ------ lakeeffect Thanks, good work. ------ randall Love it! Yay! ------ orolo Really good! ------ bradnickel Great work! ------ hexaust Love it! ------ pressurefree excellent. ------ Iuz god bless you ------ toddmatthews thank you ------ zeroexzeroone It would also be pretty sweet to have the ability to move exercises around. I tend to throw in pull-ups and other stuff at the end (with things around the house). Possibly even creating custom 7-min workouts that fit the guidelines of upper/lower/upper/lower, etc. EDIT: but this is an awesome thing, regardless	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
PG on trolls - sharpshoot http://paulgraham.com/trolls.html ====== DarrenStuart I think news.yc has a 5th troll behavior and it's down modding a comment because they disagree with it. I have been down modded a number of times not for saying something rude or stupid just something that others don't agree with. I tend to down mod rude and aggressive people on here and I also up mod people who I think have been down modded unfairly. I am not sure if I am alone with my way of thinking. ~~~ pg I think it's ok to use the up and down arrows to express agreement. Obviously the uparrows aren't only for applauding politeness, so it seems reasonable that the downarrows aren't only for booing rudeness. It only becomes abuse when people resort to karma bombing: downvoting a lot of comments by one user without reading them in order to subtract maximum karma. Fortunately we now have several levels of software to protect against that. ~~~ mixmax I don't entirely agree. I have seen quite a few comments that were extremely insightful, and/or interesting that got downmodded due to an unpopular opinion. The reason this is unfortunate is not only that you tend to miss these (assuming that there is a higher probability that you read or think about comments that are rated higher, which I am surely not the only one that is guilty of) but also that it tends to promote groupthink . This is especially important on a forum like this where we are here to learn and share our thoughts, ideas and experiences for a very particular niche: Starting startups. I have noted that comments that don't promote the "build it and they will come" view tend to be voted down. Since this site is primarily populated with hackers this is entirely understandable - it is human nature to think that your part of the project is the most important. But the reason we all come here is (I presume) to learn. And the things about which we know the least are the things where we have most to learn. It is not only a question of abuse, but also a question of opening peoples eyes to issues, problems and points of views that lie outside their expertise, but which they will probably encounter in a startup. And this includes such diverse fields as marketing, financing and sales. I am here to learn about stuff I didn't know already, and that is often outside my field. In return for this I will offfer my opinions in the fields where I may have something to contribute. At the end of the day this makes us all better entrepreneurs. Because as anyone who has ever done a startup will tell you - you have to get everything right. Hacking, finance, sales, PR, marketing, hiring, etc. So I think that the up and down arrows should not express agreement, but insightfullness or truth. Not opinion. That way I will be able to judge the validity of a comment in a field that I do not know well by its points. And hopefully learn something. ~~~ yters Highly downmodded comments stand out to me almost as much as highly upmodded comments. ~~~ pchristensen I wish I had more votes to downmod you into prominence! J/k, I upmodded (for agreement) ~~~ yters Heh, it'd be funny to have the most negative karma on YC. The only reason I care about karma is cuz I want to change my header's color. Only 15 more points to go! Once there, I'll stick a post on the front page and get downmodded into oblivion. ~~~ BrandonM Couldn't you achieve that much more easily with a Greasemonkey script? ~~~ yters Yeah, but where's the achievement then? ------ dfranke Like graffiti, trolling can be impressive when it's done especially well. My favorite troll of all time is the guy from comp.compression last August: [http://groups.google.com/group/comp.compression/browse_threa...](http://groups.google.com/group/comp.compression/browse_thread/thread/63db3f711c83d4c0/a0f09c085ce4aa7f) followed by the famous "Is Your Son a Computer Hacker?" troll from adequacy.org: <http://adequacy.org/public/stories/2001.12.2.42056.2147.html> ~~~ curi reminds me of the physicist who wrote a fake post-modernist paper and submitted it to a journal and got it published. ~~~ simen I'm not sure I'd regard the Sokal affair as trolling. It's hardly being an asshole, unless you consider exposing idiots being an ass, and it's hardly fishing for controversy, unless exposing any kind of potentially controversial stuff is trolling (was Watergate trolling?). ~~~ bishopdante No, watergate was not trolling, because it was not a forum game. Watergate was a scam, it was also an accident (getting rather busted). Trolling is a scam performed for the purposes of a humorous prank on a discussion board. Watergate was a scam to pervert the course of democratic government. ------ willchang I think what PG called "incompetence" is really just rampant emotionalism. "Incompetence" is inaccurate because it suggests that people of all levels of experience can't happily share a forum, which I think they can. But what happens at Reddit nowadays is that anyone who posts an inane comment with a phrase like "why the fuck" will get lots of upvotes. (Case in point: Search for "fuck" in the comments for the top article at Reddit, and get: "That fucking cunt is going to get what she deserves," 15 points.) I think in the early days of Reddit, the fact that everything including comments could be voted on was intimidating to trolls, so they were kept at bay. But some time later every primal scream was rewarded, and trolls started posting in droves. It never helped that a really low-scoring post with a high-scoring rejoinder tended to be highly ranked. That's just begging for the sort of you-got-served culture that excites trolls. ------ ChaitanyaSai I wonder if trolls can be categorized automatically. Caveats and all, trolls are characterized by their participation in negative-karma two-person conversations and down-voting of their comments by a diverse and changing set of users. A simple learning algorithm should zap the predictable ones. Trolls are nourished by attention and early detection and removal should nip that behavior in the bud. ~~~ pg I've thought a lot about that. I wouldn't be surprised if current spam filters would work unchanged. There are not enough trolls on News.YC to make it worth investing time in such countermeasures, but it would be an interesting experiment to see if you could use statistical filtering techniques to detect trolls in some large public corpus like Digg or Reddit or Slashdot comment threads. ~~~ thaumaturgy I don't think that would work; you would essentially require a filter that could actually understand the subject matter, in order to determine whether the purpose of the stated opinion was to bait people's responses. For example: "I've thought a lot about that. I would be surprised if current spam filters could work unchanged. There are not enough trolls on News.YC to make it worth investing time in trying to write it in Lisp, but it would be an interesting experiment to see if you could use C++ programming techniques to detect trolls in some large public corpus like Digg or Reddit or Slashdot's comment threads." ~~~ iamelgringo Not necessarily. Spam filters routinely filter out emails based on a common set of words that are used without understanding the subject matter. For example, if an email contains the words viagara and store, the probability of that email being spam go up tremendously. Paul's "A plan for Spam" essay explains a lot more. And, from what I understand, Bayesian filtering is at the root of most spam blockers out there. I'd be willing to wager that Bayesian filtering would be pretty powerful in filtering out trolls on social sites, as well. For example, if a post contains the words "asshole" and "fucktard" the probability of that post coming from a troll goes up exponentially. If you trained a Bayesian filter, or spam algorithm well enough, it should be able to flag trollish posts fairly easily. ------ ken I don't think "distance" is the primary cause of asshole behavior by automobile drivers, though it does sound like a convenient first approximation. If I was walking down the street with a $20,000 ming vase, and you were running around nearly hitting me, I'd probably swear at you. Likewise, if you were running around on the street wielding a sharp katana, I'd probably swear at you. A car is both as expensive as a ming vase, and as deadly as a sword. The idea that a rational person would _not_ get highly upset when somebody threatened both their life and the most expensive thing they own is absurd. "Distance" has little to do with it. ~~~ sarosh Aside: The elegant symmetry with which this metaphor crosses three cultures is absurd, baffling, and truly humbling. What lead you to conjure that up? What is it that you are reading? ~~~ ken Hagakure. ------ rms The Reddit thread is kind of sad. <http://reddit.com/info/68zz4/comments/> ~~~ initself It's more than kind of sad, it's pathetic. ~~~ dcurtis My favorite (upmodded 26 points as of 9pst): Regarding News.YC: "Your ancient ritual has summoned me to News.YC so those tight-assed holier-than-thou fucktards can be shown the error of their ways. Maybe the reason there aren't trolls is because NOBODY FUCKING VISITS THEIR SHITTY SITE."-- terwin, Reddit ~~~ Erikk THIS IS A GREAT SITE!!!! but it's got some kind of anti-troll field protecting it. The most perfect trolling oppertunities always seem to degenerate into civilized rational discussion. ~~~ iamelgringo I think what Paul said about "Hacker News readers feel about trolls the way exiles from Cuba or Eastern Europe feel about dictators" is right on the money. _sic semper tyrannis_ It's actually rather amazing that we are fairly unanimous in down-modding trollishness, without having community guidelines or a big discussion about it. ~~~ ardit33 I agree and I like that line a lot. I moved to the US, from a Eastern European country, as I was fed up with the retards that had taken over my country, and ruin it down. Unfortunately, who screams the loudest, often wins. ------ edw519 Another way to keep signal to noise higher is to treat debates about languages the same as those about politics and religion. Maybe it's just best to agree to disagree. I generally tend to avoid the "language war" threads for 3 reasons: 1. No one is really right or wrong. 2. Not much gets accomplished. and 3. It really doesn't make that much difference anyway. Debates about favorite colors, on the other hand, should be strongly encouraged. Blue is definitely the best one. ~~~ curi While I agree with you that avoiding those discussions is a reasonable general policy, it's not the case that "no one is really right or wrong" in debates about computer languages, politics, or religion. There is a truth of the matter. Your point that not much is accomplished by such discussions is definitely what usually happens. But it isn't what _must_ happen. There are rational ways of discussing these subjects which can lead to knowledge creation and agreement. The reason I'm posting is basically that I think people are a little too quick to give up, and if they tried to discuss seriously a bit more, they might find it sometimes works. Especially if they are careful to ignore the bad replies they get and only reply to the other people who are also taking the discussion seriously. ~~~ dfranke _it's not the case that "no one is really right or wrong" in debates about computer languages, politics, or religion. There is a truth of the matter._ Well, yes and no. There's only a truth to the matter if you can get people to agree on a premise. Two libertarians who adopt the same premises can have a meaningful debate with each other. They'll agree that there can only be one consistent position -- so if they disagree on what it is then one of them must be mistaken -- and set about trying to figure out which of them holds the fallacy. But if you pit a libertarian with the premise of self-ownership against a communist with the premise of "property is theft", nobody is going to accomplish anything because neither will view the other's argument as relevant. ~~~ curi _There's only a truth to the matter if you can get people to agree on a premise. Two libertarians who adopt the same premises can have a meaningful debate_ This is the myth of the framework. See Popper's book by that name: [http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Framework-Defence-Science- Rationa...](http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Framework-Defence-Science- Rationality/dp/0415135559/) Besides the issue of whether productive debate is possible across frameworks, there is also your (possibly accidental) assertion that what premises people believe affects what statements about reality are true (beyond statements about who believes what). That's solipsism. ~~~ dfranke _your (possibly accidental) assertion that what premises people believe affects what statements about reality are true_ None of the statements in question have to do with reality, only with abstract ideas. Libertarians believe that property ownership is a right; communists believe that it is an offense. Neither of these assertions is empirically testable. If the debate is about what policies will make us wealthier rather than what policies are ethical, then that's a different matter. But in that case, both sides are sharing the common framework of utilitarianism. ~~~ curi You give a good example: which policies towards the market create more wealth (on average, various things being equal) is a matter of fact. But I think this sort of non-arbitrary approach to thinking has much wider applicability, and indeed that all interesting subjects can be approached in a careful, meaningful way not based on personal taste. Which policies are ethical, with "ethics" rightly construed, is also a matter of fact. Morality is about how to live, and it's not a religious concept. The notion that morality is (and must be) religious is unfortunately a bad, _religious_ idea, that (oddly) most atheists still believe. Just to get started, we can consider which lifestyles do and do not accomplish their own internal goals. Lifestyles that do not are bad ways to live -- they are "immoral". We don't have to use moral terminology; that isn't important. But whatever you call it, there are objective facts about how we should or shouldn't live. And there's better than that. You can take a very wide variety of goals, and examine how to achieve them. And you can find common points -- certain ways of life are good for achieving many goals, while others are not. These common points, which make people powerful and able to accomplish things in general, are an important, useful, and objective find the field of morality. ~~~ lg It's funny that you think a lifestyle is immoral if it doesn't accomplish its own "internal goals." I think that's wrong, and not just in pathological cases. I might be an ultracompetitive misanthrope who lives to be on top (gordon-gecko-ish capitalist). But the way I get there (startup? investing?) might end up helping lots of people; maybe helping them surpass me. Was I immoral, because I didn't accomplish my goal to be number one? I'd rather have more of those people than more couch potatoes complaining about the immorality of powerful people. ~~~ curi That was a brief summary and one can say it more carefully. Most importantly, immorality is not a boolean thing. If you aren't accomplishing a goal, it'd be an improvement (more moral, a better way of life) to either change your approach, or change your goal. It is less moral (a worse way of life, immoral) to continue with a lifestyle that is failing by its own criteria of success and failure. That needs the caveat that we only mean goals you actually intend to accomplish. We don't mean vague goals, and we definitely don't mean the sort of goal you would be happy to partially achieve -- in that case, the real goal is just making progress towards ... your "goal". (It's the same word, but it's a different concept than the one I mean). Back to your points, you say that even if you fail by your own standards, you might help others, and the net effect of your life may be positive. That's absolutely true. However, it'd be even better (more moral) if you did the same actions, but had wiser goals, which those actions were achieving. Then you'd help others, but also consider your own life successful. ~~~ yters Mustn't goals themselves be good or bad, regardless of whether they're achievable? Or would you say that goals, such as Hitler's, were bad only b/c eugenics ultimately would be bad from an evolutionary point of view? Then, there is a the problem of heroism, which is defined by a person's courage to pursue a noble goal even if its achievement is very unlikely. Finally, by your definition, I could be one of the most moral people by making my goal "do whatever I want." Everyone is always doing whatever they want, at least at some level. This would pretty much render all talk of morality pointless. But, I suppose I'm being too literal with your definition. ~~~ curi These are just starting points. I do think goals are themselves good or bad, but it's much harder to explain how you can _objectively_ make assertions like that, so I wanted to make the lesser claim, for now: there are ways to explore morality objectively. I'm definitely not claiming consistency of this sort is the only criterion of morality. Only that it's an important and objective one. I don't mean to be a tease, but if I say too many things at once, I won't be understood as well. On the other hand, threads here go stale fast (usually in under a day), so I'm not sure how to ever get very far in explaining, here. By contrast, on another forum, I am in a thread that has been going for 4 years. And it's only 180 comments long -- so around 1 comment per 8 days. I'll keep posting here if anyone replies. Or contact me, curi42 on AIM or curi@curi.us So for depth, my best idea so far is to link longer, external writing. Here are two things I wrote about morality which explain my views a bit more: Essay: <http://www.curi.us/blog/post/1252-xii> Dialog: <http://www.curi.us/blog/post/1169-morality> ~~~ yters Ah, good. I figured I wasn't getting the whole picture. Something similar to objectivism makes sense to me. I think there is such a thing as human nature, so everyone is ultimately made happy by the same things, at a certain granularity. Morality's objectively good goal, in your framework, is to maximize happiness. However, at this point I have to veer into territory considered "religious," because such a claim requires at least an element of non-materialism to make sense of our moral intuitions. At any rate, my views are not rigorously defined enough, and I'd benefit from critical, constructive discussion. I'll check out your links and see if I can participate. ~~~ curi If it's any help: I don't think there is any such thing as 'human nature', though I do think there is a lot of complex knowledge in cultures that achieves some of the same practical results. I don't think the purpose of morality, or life, is to maximize happiness. I suspect maximizing happiness is consistent with the right way of life, if you understand enough, but I don't think it's the best way to look at things, and I think it makes it harder to see the answers. In general, ideas don't need foundations. "You can't justify that," is not a valid criticism. This includes moral ideas. So if you have a "moral intuition", or think a common sense notion of morality makes sense, but can't justify it perfectly, I don't think that's a problem. It may be a sign of religion, but not a bad one. The correct way to look at ideas is not to seek justification, but instead to compare them to rival theories. In other words, ask, "Got a better idea?" If there is no rival theory, then criticism is sort of useless. It can help us notice we'd like a better theory and find places to look for new ideas. But without a rival theory to compare with, we can't see which theory seems truer, or which stands up to criticism better, and can't abandon the current theory. The ideas about foundations and justifications here were best explained in published work by Karl Popper, and also somewhat by David Deutsch (but more to come, he should have a new book out within 2 years). They are not especially popular, but in my judgment they actually make sense, unlike all the rival philosophies. If you read Popper, be aware that he never wrote much applying his ideas to morality or education. He wrote a lot about science, and about communism and historicism, and also about certain (bad) schools of philosophy, but also explained epistemology in abstract. Guess that's long enough for now. For what it's worth, I like fielding (non- hostile) questions in these areas. ~~~ yters I guess I should rephrase it as morality's goal maximises happiness. What would you propose as an objective moral goal? Do you recommend anything by Popper or Deutsch specifically? ~~~ curi Deutsch only has one book out, which is very good. My only warning is that half of it is sort of off topic (physics, virtual reality, computation, time travel). But that's ok, because of the density of ideas fit into each chapter. [http://www.amazon.com/Fabric-Reality-Parallel-Universes- Impl...](http://www.amazon.com/Fabric-Reality-Parallel-Universes- Implications/dp/014027541X/) Popper has lots of books. Maybe The Myth of the Framework is a good choice. As I recall, it has content from lectures he gave to people not already familiar with his philosophy, so those parts are especially clear and accessible. Proposing an actual moral goal is tricky, because we have to be careful to keep separate the issues of whether there are true moral ideas, and whether my particular idea is true. And very strictly, my idea will _not_ be true. It will have truth to it, but not be perfect. Which may be a confusing concept, because the prevailing epistemology says that knowledge is "justified, true belief" by which it means 100% absolutely, perfectly true. That perspective discounts any possibility of "partial truths" as knowledge. Further, it encourages people to believe they possess (final, certain) truths. But I don't claim to have any of those, nor do I think one can have those. If you're OK with all that, I can tell you some _tentative guesses_ at moral truths. ~~~ yters Yeah go ahead. ~~~ curi To any disagreeable people reading this: please bear in mind that if you say the following ideas are incorrect, and that therefore I am incorrect to say morality can be approached objectively ... you will be contradicting yourself, because you will have made an assertion about the objective truth of the matter (that I am, in fact, mistaken). So some good goals, in my opinion: Long term: open-ended knowledge creation Medium term: cure aging, invent self-replicating nanobots, win war on terror, write important book, invent AI Short term: make a sandwich, be kind to one's children, quit smoking, make a useful product, solve a problem you were having, learn how to play Mario Galaxy well None of these are (I imagine) especially odd. That is because we have to start where we are. We already have goals. Most of them are good goals to pursue, for now. In the event we decide we want something better, or see a problem with them, we should seek to make (gradual) improvements. So, nothing revolutionary here. In fact, while I think most people are mistaken about moral philosophy, I don't have a problem with most of their actual ideas about how to live day to day. We have the most peaceful, cooperative, and effective civilization ever to exist; or, in other words, we have the most knowledge of morality that has ever existed. Average people have this, and use it in their routine lives. Can we do even better? Of course. But most of my suggestions are not about changing one's goals, but instead about changing how one tries to accomplish them. So, for example, it is very important to enjoy criticism. This is common knowledge, but people still have trouble with it, and often don't fully understand the reasons it's important. To sketch out my answer, criticism stabilizes true ideas (because they withstand it better than their rivals), while an environment without criticism does not differentiate truth and falsity. And criticism is a means of error correction. Error correction is the only way to reliably achieve any goal. There is no way to reliably come up with the right approach, initially, so anyone who wants to consistently succeed has to be able to find and correct errors. Why do people dislike criticism, anyway? They take it personally. They hear that they are mistaken, or bad, but they want to be right. That is an irrational and ineffective attitude towards life. If you want to be right, the only path forward is to be willing to change what you are, until you are what's right. And whether you are criticized or not does not change whether you are mistaken. It only changes whether you find out about it. That is a gift. Instead of being mistaken and ignorant, you have a change to change your mind. So to tie this back to what I was saying earlier, one of the common points for the best way to accomplish many different goals, is to enjoy criticism. Alternative approaches such as disliking and avoiding (some) criticism are immoral, because they sabotage achieving one's goals. The more distasteful you find criticism, the less reliably you can accomplish what you want to. To add to this, we could go through all the different attitudes which are important to learning and problem solving in general, and list them as important pieces of morality. They are all fundamental to how we should live. ~~~ thaumaturgy > you will be contradicting yourself, because you will have made an assertion > about the objective truth of the matter ...unless I assert that morality is subjective. :-) As for the rest of it ... well, I do disagree. I think Guy Kawasaki outlined it best in his book, "Rules for Revolutionaries". It has a section titled, if I remember correctly, "Don't let bozosity get you down". A certain amount of criticism that a person will encounter will be, well, wrong. It can even be wrong when it's coming from an expert. You see this all the time in the business world. I can't tell here if you're suggesting that a person take all criticism to heart -- I think so, because of the way you talk about changing to adapt to criticism -- but, if you are, then you're suggesting that a person allow themselves to be buffeted by the winds of the popular and the trendy. There's no way to always to always be correct, to always do the right thing. You might listen to a bunch of criticism, and a bunch of suggestions, and still make the wrong decision for all the right reasons. Listening to more criticism, and allowing that criticism to further change your habits, doesn't necessarily ameliorate that. I counter that it's important to know when to accept criticism, and when to ignore it and forge ahead. I also posit that it's impossible to know that, so you just have to make your best guess. ~~~ curi Regarding subjectivity, if you assert morality is subjective, you don't have a leg to stand on in saying I was wrong. What would that even mean? I was right, for me, or whatever. Regarding "forging ahead": Scheduling criticism is a different issue, and one well known to writers: if you keep editing the first chapter, you'll never finish. There certainly is a place for that kind of thing. It is really a separate (and large) issue. \----- Of course you have to use your judgment about which criticism you think is correct. The point is not to dislike criticism generally, or to ignore it. Doing those things makes it harder to find and use good criticism. To use a YC example, some people have posted here asking for comments and criticism for their fledgling startup. And people have blogged about how this criticism was harsh and hard to take, but made their startup better, so they encourage others to ask for comments/criticism as well. This illustrates a few different attitudes. There are some people who are too scared of criticism to ask for any. Their startups won't get the improvement that some more bold or open minded people have gotten. And then of the people who did ask for criticism, many still partially dislike it, which makes it harder to fairly evaluate the criticism (finding it somewhat painful is distracting!), and their distaste makes them overlook some other, more subtle opportunities to get more criticism, that a person who loves criticism would have found. So this is an important and relevant issue even at an exceptionally enlightened place. There is no magic formula to always make correct decisions, but there are ways of life which are more effective and reliable. ~~~ thaumaturgy > Regarding subjectivity, if you assert morality is subjective, you don't have > a leg to stand on in saying I was wrong. Well, subjectivity doesn't mean you're right in the objective sense. See, you opened your comment with a logical trick to prove the correctness of what you were about to say before you even said it, and you did so by deciding that there are intrinsically right and wrong moral decisions. I think that morality, specifically, happens to be an extremely subjective thing, first of all. It varies dramatically from culture to culture, society to society, era to era. Secondly, I think that was kind of an underhanded thing to do, and a friendly jest was my way of calling you on it. If I were to pull an equally underhanded trick, I might say that my reply is in fact a criticism of your thinking, and, according to your own principles, you must take it under consideration and use it to change the way you act. > The point is not to dislike criticism generally, or to ignore it. This part I like. It makes me really want to agree with what you're trying to say. But, then you go from that, to things like, "...more subtle opportunities to get more criticism, that a person who loves criticism would have found." I have a problem with that, because I think of criticism as a distraction that is sometimes an opportunity. To really love criticism is to dwell on what will ultimately be a distraction. I really wish I could find my copy of Rules for Revolutionaries. (I really dig that book, and it was signed! Sometimes I loan it out ... rats.) It cited some specific examples of this, sometimes where businesses had too closely followed criticism and been hurt by that, and others where they hadn't followed it, and benefited from that. So, it's not just scheduling criticism. In the book writing example, sometimes you have to know when to ignore your editor altogether. ~~~ yters I agree with the logic trick part. To say something is undecidable is to make an objective claim. However, at the point where you want to say someone should or should not do something the subjective morality comes back to bite you (saying curi's trick was underhanded). I think this is curi's point. All you can really do with subjective morality is describe your rationale for why you do what you do, and hope the other person buys it. Even that is inconsistent because you are motivated by the thought that the other person should do something. Curi, while it is true we start from first impressions, either our goals have to be mutually independent, or they must have a common foundation. Otherwise they end up contradicting each other. That's the point of moral philosophy, and what I meant by justifying moral intuition. ~~~ curi Regarding contradicting goals: I think the way to tie things together is a common _endpoint_ (the truth of the matter). If you move all your goals in that direction, it will cause them to become progressively less contradictory. You can also remove contradictions locally if you find any. If you want, you can say that is based on the common foundation "if two ideas contradict, at least one is false". But the point is, you see a contradiction, you know at least one of the ideas is mistaken in some way, so you know there's room for improvement there, until you come up with some changes that remove the contradiction. ~~~ yters Yes, I agree with the end point. I think morals are properly posed in teleological terms. So, moral philosophy has to do with determining the end. What are our goals aiming at? ~~~ curi What we should aim for, in the long term, is a tough question. But fortunately we don't need to know that, now. What's much easier is determining some good short term goals, and then after completing them, determining the next set of short term goals. In that way, we can make progress indefinitely, without ever seeing especially far ahead. But certainly seeing as much of an "ultimate purpose" to aim for, as we can, is helpful. We have ideas of parts of it. Creating knowledge is good, and destroying it is bad. Freedom is good, and controlling other people is at best a temporary stopgap measure, not an ideal. Cooperation or indifferent tolerance is good, and violent conflict is bad, both because it's destructive, and because it's not a truth seeking process. Settling for less is not ideal, and anything that puts pressure on people, or creates incentives, to not strive for all we can, is bad. Some of these assertions have directly applicability today. For example, the common perception that striving for more is "hard" (unpleasant) indicates something or other is going wrong. Or there's the idea that life is about compromise, which is essentially settling for less. People don't just fail to find a with to proceed with no downsides, but often people don't even try, and assume such things do not exist. The ideas in our culture which cause these attitudes clearly have room for improvement. _"moral philosophy has to do with determining the end"_ Yes, but that's not all. How to approach goals, how to solve problems and correct errors, what sorts of policies for how to live your life are effective, are also very important topics (and perhaps more accessible and directly useful). One of the critical ideas here, I think, is that all these things depend on _knowledge_. How do you approach a goal? In general, you need to create knowledge about the goal and how best to approach it (and also whether it's worth accomplishing, in case it was mistaken). To solve a problem, you have to figure out how to solve it. (And if implementing the solution is hard or unpleasant in any way, that could be avoided with still more knowledge of how to solve the problem in an easier way.) To correct errors, you have to create knowledge of what ideas are in error, and what would be better ideas. And so on. And therefore, anyone who is seriously interested in morality ought to study epistemology. ~~~ RobKohr ahhhhh.... I have been squished against the wall! ~~~ curi lol yeah the UI doesn't work so well with heavy nesting ------ serhei One of the main contributing factors to the abundance of trolling on forums is indeed that text is a much less expressive medium than face-to-face communication, meaning that you very often end up trapped into voicing your opinion in a trollish manner due to just carelessly throwing your initial thoughts into the text box. You can give up, though, and perpetrate the crapstorm, or you can remind yourself that being good at communicating your ideas and opinions is an important part of being a well-rounded hacker; then you can view the posting of only coherent and non-inflammatory replies on fora as practice for when you'll have to communicate about programs you are writing. ------ boredguy8 My experience on forums is that -size matters-. A pond with ten fish gets far less trollers than a pond with ten thousand. As for solutions: there have to be consequences. Either losing the ability to post or losing the ability to have your posts seen. Certainly banning accounts is an option, but then you have to fight with the crapflood, if and when it comes. ~~~ davidw I think the community size bit is important (see 'monkey number'). I also wonder if that means that sites should somehow attempt to break people into smaller groups in some way in order to maintain that 'small town feel'. ------ Tichy On news.yc it is not so extreme, but on german tech news site heise.de, there is also a modding system. Good threads become green, bad ones red. I have often wondered if people are more likely to start flaming away in the red threads. Sort of like beating up somebody who is already down on the floor (comments on the line of "you suck"). At heise.de I often had the impression that it is the case - not so much on news.yc, but it might be interesting to look at the statistics? ~~~ pg News.YC users are definitely influenced by the prevailing trend, in both directions. I.e. people are more willing to vote something up as its score rises, and more prone to attack something as its score falls. It's not too bad yet here, but it got to be such a problem on Reddit that about a year ago they switched to not showing how many points a submission has till it's an hour old. ~~~ ced Ever thought about doing a controlled experiment about it? I.e.: showing high points for a post to half the users, and low points to the other half. ------ Spyckie Creating more selective communities with stricter guidelines seems to be the wrong approach to dealing with trolls, especially based on the scenario pg lays out. As pg says, the larger a community grows, the easier it is for trolls to be accepted and the harder it is to mod (prune) the community. It seems that critical mass is just when the pruning community becomes smaller than the trolling community, and that by creating new communities with more stringent rules, you are just delaying the date (hopefully indefinitely) when trolls come in. I understand that the yc community is special, but even the comments here show that it won't work for much longer as the community grows beyond yc. To answer the question of "Will it scale?", I think its already a no. If you've ever hung out with a lot of girls (from a guy's perspective), you can beging to understand the trolling community. 1 on 1 with a girl and you can get intellectual conversation, but the minute 3 or 4 girls get together, they start talking about clothes, guys, dramas, and all other stuff that just isn't interesting. I bet girls see it the same with guys too (5 guys together = WoW, DOTA, girls or crude jokes). Solutions? Keep it small. This fails to keep in line with the existing goals of news.yc (advertising for existing startups, attracting smart people, etc). Another solution? Maybe try to preserve the small community feel as the site gets bigger. One way to do this would be to use user upvotes and downvotes as community boundaries for each user - ie: making their community presence only to those who rate them up, and to make their personal community those who they rate up. This is speculative at best, though. ------ Alex3917 "Often users have second thoughts and delete such comments." @PG, I've always wondered, are you able to see all the comments that I've posted and then deleted two minutes later? And if so, is this an acceptable way to send you semi-private messages? ~~~ davidw "Paul Graham sees all the comments anyone has posted anywhere. What's more, he knows all the comments they will post in the future, too." ~~~ tyler "...and has already categorized them using Bayesian filtering." ------ ChaitanyaSai It doesn't have much to do with hacker personalities. Unless you want to argue that Youtube denizens are hackers of some sort too. ~~~ bishopdante Forums used to be the province of the technorati. Not no more they ain't. ------ prakash "Hackers can be abrupt even in person. Put them on an anonymous forum, and the problem gets worse." I am sure everyone on this forum is on some kind of social network. If we can get every user's handle to link to their flavor-du-jour social network's public profile, verify via email -- that should at least cut down on some of the noise. PG: What do you think? ~~~ yters If chains of trust could be widely and rigorously established online, most (maybe all?) of the big problems we have today would be gone. ~~~ pg It would be a good thing. If anyone wants to apply to YC with that kind of idea, we'd be into it. ~~~ sspencer I actually thought long and hard the other day about how such a system might be implemented, and came up with a few interesting ideas. Perhaps this encouragement will make me apply! EDIT: I even wrote about it a long time ago, when I still updated my blog with any semblance of regularity. Weebly seems to be down for approximately the millionth time in the last month or so, though. I'll post the article if Weebly gets righted within the edit window. ~~~ sspencer EDIT2: Weebly finally back online: [http://myothercar.weebly.com/1/post/2007/11/a-confederacy- of...](http://myothercar.weebly.com/1/post/2007/11/a-confederacy-of- dunces.html) ------ hollerith I wish comments remained deletable longer. My last comment is 3 hr old (and has no replies) and it has already become undeletable whereas when I made an insensitive comment, it continued to be downmodded for about 24 hr. By "become undeletable", I mean there is no "edit" or "delete" link on the comment. ------ tac-tics I just want to point out an issue with a small point Paul brings up, and that issue is how Karma works on YC versus Reddit. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but there _is_ a tradeoff. On Reddit, you can be rude, and people can downmod you, and it doesn't matter once the post sinks. Here, if you act like an asshole, you get downmodded, and your karma suffers. But even if you make a well reasoned, but controversial comment, you often do still get downmodded because of your unpopular views. Not that I comment here often, but I'm at four down from seven at one point, and it's really the logical consequence of such a system. It seems to work here, but I do wonder, as Paul expresses near the end of his article here, does this technique scale? ------ akkartik PG's essays are getting shorter. I like that -- no matter what Steve Yegge says. ([http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/01/blogging- theory-201-...](http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/01/blogging- theory-201-size-does-matter.html)) ------ DTanner I'm not convinced that you'll be able to deal with the Eternal September problem. It's all well and good that anti-trolling is built into the rules, but as more and more people join less and less of them will have read the rules. ------ jondo I saw this on Metafilter. I am not a member but I enjoy almost daily reading on the site. I would offer than you have an unaddressed aspect in regard to those than are called trolls. Specifically Forum members who try to end a debate by labeling someone a troll. I am a member of Syracuse.com and DailyKos. I started posting maybe 7 years ago on Syracuse,com after RWers brought God to the defense an UNJUST war. I am a Catholic who marched against the Vietnam War and for black rights and anti-poverty programs. Since I started posting I have tried to distinguish between what Jesus would support in the positions of the Republicans and the Democrats. To the Right Wingers on Syracuse.com I am a troll because I call them to account concerning unjust wars, the death penalty and their continuing efforts to strangle social programs in a bathtub. On Daily Kos I am called a troll for not supporting "gay rights" or abortion. My views are consistent with my religion. Moreover when I was younger I developed a great appreciation for the Amish and Mennonites who view things in a similar manner but maybe to a greater extent and with greater consistency than the Catholics, I am civil and stay well within the site posting rules. I have had my posts and user name constantly deleted on Syracuse.com and that is fairly easily done there by any poster hitting the "Inappropriate Post" button. The modest size gay friendly community within DailyKos are very hostile to any posts that are in opposition to their goals. ------ afreshvegetable I LOVE how the first response is a Troll comment! My only thought to add is an interaction I had recently with a programmer/hacker/entrepreneur who had made a macro program to automate mining in Eve Online. The program is explicitly contrary to the EULA and so constitutes a hack. The programmer/owner had an elaborate feedback password system, so I had to IM him directly to activate my copy of the program once I paid my fee. He was wildly rude--just throwing off flippant and rude remarks like a vagrant dog throws fleas. After the third or fourth example I started to call him on it--to his, and my great frustration. He did not like being called on his nasty tone at all and denied having one at all. I got so heated that I almost ditched the whole project, but finally calmed down enough to get the transaction done. Later I spoke to a friend in- game who had an identical experience. My point is that this article on how hackers and some programmers tend towards this behavior as a culture explains a lot. My programmer provocateur thought his nastiness was somehow normal, acceptable, and utterly justifiable on the basis of some sense of his own personal superiority. I suppose this is what happens when people take their coding/hacking acumen as a license for megalomania and a total disregard of social graces. Great essay. ------ Kolibri >One might worry this would prevent people from expressing controversial ideas, but empirically that doesn't seem to be what happens. When people say something substantial that gets modded down, they stubbornly leave it up. What people delete are wisecracks, because they have less invested in them. How would you know? How would you know it does not stiffle unpopular opinions? I think that I would personally practice self-censoring if I would lose karma by expressing unpopular opinions that are likely to be down-voted. I know that I already do on reddit, and there the down-votes are at least only temporary. Not wanting to lose karma may seem a foolish reason for not expressing your opinions, and at first I din't mind. I kept writing my unpopular opinions on reddit, the down-votes made me put even more effort into them so that they would be above approach. But they' still only get a handful of points whereas one-liners expressing the popular opinion would get much more. So eventually I gave up. Now I mostly just read a couple of stories a day, and occassionally write the one-liner comment. As a final comment, I've always been disgusting by the way that people on reddit would constantly compare themselves, always favorable, to their bigger, would-be rival: Digg. Now you do the same thing towards reddit, and I can only shake my head in disgust. Learn to value your site in itself, not as the compare to other sites. It does not need to be a competition. ~~~ aston On your final comment, it's a pretty universal truth that every community will eventually find a common enemy. It's part of feeling like you're part of something. ------ aswanson About what size was reddit (in uniques) before it jumped the shark? ~~~ pg Off the top of my head, maybe 40-50,000. The fascinating thing is, all the data is still there. You can go and look at the old comments and stories and see what the site used to be like. If you could find a good proxy for stupidity, like comment length or spelling mistakes, you could graph the change as the site grew. ~~~ Spyckie Is there a way to grab a reddit comment corpus (a large set of reddit's comments)? I don't browse reddit but I think it would be a fun thing to play around with. ~~~ Tichy wget perhaps? ------ systems PG misses an important perspective, cyberbullies! People who bully other people because they have better computer knowledge, mainly the two areas of administration and programming The thing is learning, working ... are both hard, and many ppl got screwed or unlucky over their lives, they either learned useless crap at school or university, or work at non interesting jobs with bad bosses or collegues And sometimes, we are humans, we are attracked to certain aspects of what we try to learn to escape, or trying to improve upon our bad lack And sometimes the cyberbullies call us trolls. It's okay, thought, better be a troll than a bully, the thing is, in time we will learn, and on that road we will have fun, and, the road will not end, and it will meet plenty of bullies, and overtime we will learn to be quiet, for the next person we talk to, and dare to show to them that we don't know, might just be, the next bully ... who will accuse me of being troll ... or that other word incompetent. But the bully don't see, just like the one in the school yard, its just a school yard, don't take yourself too seriously, its just a forum or irc! I am reading chatting and enjoying my time, until you came and changed the game, ... thou shall not speak! and now the book seller might have won, for you know, thought can't do teach! And most of the blogs I read were just trolls! ------ yelsgib Perhaps the reason that people troll (or take part in any sort of asshole behavior, really) is that they don't have anything better to do. Hear me out. Hacker News is a "forum" whose main purpose is getting people to talk about/think about/post links to information related to startups. It has a very explicit purpose and to this end I would not expect it to be "infested" to the extent of a lot of other forums. For instance, would we expect to see a lot of trolls on a forum devoted to advanced topics in theoretical math? "Orbifold cohomology is so much better than Hopfschild cohomology!" No. No, we wouldn't. A serious, well-defined, topic begets serious discussion. This is the real problem with reddit, digg, etc. - there's no clear GOAL. Like, there's no -reason- that people shouldn't be assholes. What are they getting in the way of? It's like if you opened the doors to your house and just held a "general forum." At first, discussion would be great (it's just your friends). Later, discussion would get worse (it's your friends' friends). Eventually it would degrade into the biggest losers who have nowhere to go sitting around and making fun of all the fun they're not having out in the real world (outside the house). I agree with pg's sentiments that the architecture/rules of hacker news make it a much more intelligent, even (gasp) friendly forum, but I also think it's the community. They keep coming back because they have active interest. They have active interest because hacker news has established as its goal the provision of things of interest. As always, I might just be woefully naive about human nature; but things seem so simple! ------ cawel Regarding the future of communities while they grow and "technical tweaks", eBay recently adjusted its policies to improve its community quality, restricting sellers from leaving negative feedback to buyers: <http://www.roughtype.com/archives/2008/02/crowd_control.php> ------ bhb Very small nitpick, but I think "It an old one, as old as forums" should be "It _is_ an old one, as old as forums". Update: this has been corrected. ~~~ pg Thanks, fixed. ------ michaelneale "The sites's guidelines explicitly ask people not to say things they wouldn't say face to face." Interesting, I know quite a few people that would in fact all but troll in person, to your face. Although in their case, its more to do with them having no outbound tact filter: <http://www.mit.edu/~jcb/tact.html> ------ jdueck Regarding News.YC, I fear that it may eventually suffer the same fate as Slashdot, Digg, Reddit, etc. Trolling is a minor problem compared to self- promoting. The challenge is that there's no scarcity on the internet, so you have to create artificial scarcity. It may be that the best way to fix the problem (i.e. to create scarcity) is through fees. For example, a $1.00 (rising with demand) fee per submission would keep a lot of junk out of any discussion site. And any serious content producer or blogger wouldn't blink at the notion of a small fee. The assumption that everything should be free is what kills many of these sites. ------ kitty_pineapple I totally agree. Seeing that most forums are started with something stupid like 'Everyone who uses this forum are woodheads', it sets a series of replies such as 'i am NOT a woodhead!' or "I agree, you are a woodhead or you wouldn't be here'. Especially when I don't know all those shortcuts that eliminate these posts, I find it terribly disturbing to have to read through all those 'comments'. And I hope this isn't spam, please tell me if it is. I am only 11 years old. ------ irrevenant Paul, have you considered personalising as a method of minimising trolling? As you pointed out, people do things on forums that they wouldn't do in person. IMO, this is partly because they're hiding behind a handle and partly because their target is. I'm not sure how you'd go about making accounts have more personality and identity, but IMO that would be considerably more effective than just instructing people to behave like they're face-to-face. They know they're not. ------ researchdcs Give George Carlin The Asshole Theory(~): "The amount of an asshole a person is is directly proportional to the distance they are away from you at the time you discover this fault. Someone on TV is REALLY AN ASSHOLE! Someone in the car next to you is Pretty Much of an Asshole. A guy standing next to you on line: <whispers> 'this guy's a real asshole here'" ------ bishopdante It's simple, trolls prey on people's inner asshole. It's like a form of bullying, if you rise to the bait, then you're done. There's no technical fix, there's a mentality fix. The act is as old as the hills, and they provide balance to the debate. Trolls are a form of court jester. I am therefore pro-troll and anti troll-victim. ------ domnit Another model for keeping out trolls is Metafilter's. They require a $5 donation when an account is created, and kick out assholes. Of course, this keeps out a whole lot more than trolls. It's certainly the wrong way to do it for most sites, but it works for them, and perhaps for others. ------ smithfield The simplest troll test. A troll (person or point of view) is incapable of introspection. This does not mean that trolls won't try to introspect, just that they cannot succeed at it. This can also be used to show why trolls have trouble with recursion and irony. ------ jonthewayne I think this might be the exact kind of situation that an advanced [http://phoenomi.com/2008/02/13/the-rise-of-social- governance...](http://phoenomi.com/2008/02/13/the-rise-of-social-governance/) system could solve. ------ cnf I actually like trolls of the 1st kind. You know, the practical jokers, the original trolls, the ones that have no real bad intentions but just like to be silly once in a while. The second kind, well, I just call them "people" ------ gopher Some people troll because they know better but they are tired of explaining it. They say the truth(tm) when the crowd does not want to here it. I like them. ~~~ parsifal I'm of the opinion that if you can't explain something without being exasperated, then why are you bothering to explain it? Go do something else. ------ sammyo Observing just the length of this thread, my initial thought is that pg has executed quite an exceptional troll himself... ------ parsifal This is a fantastic post on a topic that's been a problem with the web since day one. Very insightful. The Four Reasons feel very accurate. Thanks, Paul! ------ valda Maybe this is interesting idea: <http://lemurcatta.org/> ------ hillbilly1 Is there any fundamental difference in how karma is awarded in News.YC compared with Slashdot? ~~~ Tichy It's been a while since I've been on slashdot, but back then their system was quite sophisticated. You could not always vote on stories, only when temporary moderator status was assigned to you by a random process. Additionally, sometimes you would be assigned meta-moderator status and get to vote on the quality of moderators ratings. Those meta-moderations would in turn influence the likelihood of the rated moderators to become moderators again in the future. Also, they have categories for the votes ("funny", "insightful", "troll", ...). ------ anewaccountname Who is this guy and what authority does he have to write about these topics? I haven't read the essay, but there's no way anything so short and written in such an informal style could have anything useful to say about such and such topic, when people with degrees in the subject have already written many thick books about it. ~~~ dfranke Where can I get a degree in trolling? ~~~ jcwentz I'd try Hampshire College, UC Santa Cruz, or the New School. ~~~ johnnowak As a New School student, I can only say... well... okay yes, you're probably right. It's great fun though. I can't imagine hating school anywhere else. ------ achoi02 i feel like fox news has moved trolling to television. its a good thing i stopped watching tv years ago ------ dysmas ... and with this post i register. ------ curi it's not clear to me that nastiness is more common at hacker forums. a _certain kind_ is. but i've seen much nastier stuff on parenting forums (which i've been to a lot). on parenting forums, you don't find so many jerks. when people are mean, they tend to be a bit more subtle (or passive aggressive) about it. but they make it emotional and personal, and i think that does a more effective job of actually hurting anyone. ------ jazj I suspect that this article is a direct consequence of Arc's sceptical reception on Slashdot, Digg, and Reddit. ------ typicalpg Pretty typical paul graham post. He doesn't provide any evidence and he shows very little understanding of the problem. He doesn't even understand he is being trolled because he is wrong. No one cares about 4000 lines of macros for PLT Scheme. All of his arc hype led to some dumb macros. We listened to years of essays about how to program and what makes productive programmers only to find he takes R5RS and adds some macros. Wow. Amazing LISP revolution. Paul you are being "trolled" because people disagree with you. You haven't seen real trolls. ------ wololoooo pfft, you're just bitter about the way arc was recieved ------ Trollbert This is bad. Anyone should be able to say anything. That way everyone can see what is being said - good, bad, sad, left, right, or wrong. Remember, a democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding whats for dinner. Fuck lamb for dinner! ~~~ FatBastard For those who aren't gun nuts, the parable goes: Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner. Liberty is a well-armed lamb prepared to contest the vote. Here is a good example of a reasonable point poorly made. Seems off topic because not all the premises are stated, but in his meatspace, everybody can fill in the blanks with common knowledge. Also, in his world, everybody uses small, old, anglo-saxon words to add poetry to their speech, he may not realize (or care) that it offends some delicate sensibilities. This is the graffitti of which PG spoke. And surprisingly, it is art. Not art in the beautiful sense, but art in the message sense. Imagine yourself in China and you wrote on the wall "Fuck Tiananmen". This is not pretty, but it is not spam.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Mark Cuban: The world’s first trillionaire will be an AI entrepreneur - freshfey http://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/13/mark-cuban-the-worlds-first-trillionaire-will-be-an-ai-entrepreneur.html ====== thedailymail In many conceivable scenarios, the AI trillionaire's riches will represent a transfer of wealth from millions of people whose jobs got eaten by algorithms and automation. If AI is going to deliver maximum benefit to humanity, we should probably think of the ascent of trillionaires as a negative outcome. ------ eli_gottlieb Or they'll do like a lot of AI's biggest experts, and work for a large but reasonable salary in a research lab.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Whats the best API/Library documentation you've ever seen? - apawloski ====== jfaucett I think Ruby has some pretty nice documentation. at ruby-doc.org I love being able to toggle source view for functions and stuff to see how its implemented. I know this is probably violating some "best practice" of don't show implementation, but honestly, seeing an implementation makes it a lot easier to understand what a function does than just having your params and their types listed out... ------ nantes Two of my favorites: \- Django (perhaps with the exception of class-based views, which are getting better) - <https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/> \- Stripe - <https://stripe.com/docs> ~~~ sankethkatta I second Stripe. When logged in, they even place your api key into the reference examples, so that you can copy paste working code. ------ kgutteridge Massively impressed with Parses documentation <https://parse.com/docs/> ------ debacle YUI, before the recent version, had some pretty serious documentation and the depth of their examples was spectacular.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Stop building apps no one wants - vlokshin http://launchsky.com ====== trotsky It seems to me that there is a significant group of users out there that are web app groupies for lack of a better word who will more or less express an interest in anything as long as it is pre-launch or early in the launch cycle. Since these folks are usually not your actual target market, their feedback is pretty worthless unless you're just looking for whether you fit neatly inside a web x.0 box. It seems like a website where people posted ideas for websites would be almost guaranteed to have a high population of these folks. Of course I'm probably not your target market so my feedback is probably pretty worthless. ~~~ pekk There are a lot of users on HN who are positive about new projects (A) because it is nice and often more constructive as a start for discussion (B) it counteracts a prevailing negativity and one-upmanship (C) you actually don't know what is going to pan out in the end. ------ hiddenstage I hate that you have to sign up before browsing the site. I'd be much more interested in signing up if I can browse with free will. I'm assuming you can only vote if you sign up? If so, the target sign up market for LaunchSky are devs/entrepreneurs/etc which are usually not the target market of the apps that are using the service. ~~~ pydave Is there a site to browse? It looks like it's just a demo to me ("We’ll be launching LaunchSky early 2013"). (Did not try signing up because I totally agree with you.) ~~~ vlokshin There's no site to browse. It's a demo / launch page. Sorry for the confusion, but I guess that means it's a decent launch page? ~~~ nollidge Confusion = good launch page? ~~~ mosselman I agree this is so annoying. I love the idea though... I have a good idea -> I pitch it and then 100 people start building my idea too. Nice! Now I don't think having an idea is the same as executing it well, but I could imagine people being hesitant. Oh and because of the annoying landing page I vow to never to use your site, nice try. ~~~ bpatrianakos There are tons of people who called Quora annoying for doing the same thing. They also have a tendency to go around in public talking about how they won't use it because it's so annoying. Annoying or not though, it gets people to sign up and many of those same people who claimed to not want to join because of it being annoying end up on the site. Maybe it is annoying but the concept works. ~~~ mosselman Good thing I am not so insecure about my ideas that I need others to give me validation for them. I can imagine though that the kind of person who goes to networking events on eventbrite, who starts talking about his 'great and orignal' 'idea' to create an app where people can take pictures of food in restaurants and then let others search these pictures to see whats for dinner around them, does need this validation. (I have actually been to numerous events where more than one person at a single event had this 'idea'. ) I think when your idea is crap, you secretly know it, but after quitting your job and investing all of your savings, it becomes really hard to cut your losses. ------ wushupork How is this different from a LaunchRock in essence? I feel like for many consumers, it's very hard for them to imagine the product w/o seeing/touching/interacting with it no matter how great you pitch or describe it. If someone were to describe to me a blog of funny cats or what's essentially Instagram, I don't think I would have cared much and never really appreciate how much enjoyment I would derive from both just from the pitch or description. On many occasions I've asked people if they wanted x or would it be cool if it did x and lukewarm would be the best description of their reaction. But seeing the live or real version of that x gave a totally different reaction. ~~~ vlokshin Valid point. LaunchRock takes a while. While you're waiting for DNS settings to go through, adding a favicon (still not sure why that's required), you could've tried out 10 ideas. LaunchRock is an amazing tool, but it makes you bring your own traffic to your idea. In addition, it's not the quickest thing in the world. We envision LaunchSky to be an outlet for trying out your ideas to a sea of evaluators who are ready for evaluating them (and signing up as early users). ~~~ caleywoods This strikes me as a clone of Kickstarter but in place of funding you're giving people the ability to vote, and vote for free. I think it has its uses but ultimately to me, votes hold no value because they aren't inherently valuable to a user. I would back projects all day long on Kickstarter with someone elses money but I have never backed a project myself. Think about how downvoting on StackOverflow works. It costs you karma or points to downvote somehting, it's not free. I think I would probably use LaunchSky as a way to make sure people didn't think it was potentially the worst idea they've ever heard of but outside of that I couldn't place any real faith in the platform for big ideas. I would probably limit myself to posting ideas which I felt I could build in a few evenings. ------ justjimmy Just to bounce ideas/brainstorm. The issue is why would people come to this site to click 'I'd use this' or 'I support this'. (Ideas will flow in no problem, they're a dime a dozen.) So we need to provide feedbackers with incentive. 1\. Reward them? Oops…nothing to stop them going around and supporting them everything and game the reward system. 2\. Reward them based on their choices (and limit their votes)? Nope…these are just ideas. There's no way you can tell if the idea will be successful even with enough support backers. Takes much longer to develop etc. 3\. Give them the option to back good ideas (put their money where their mouth is)? Nope…then it's just Kickstarter. 4\. Curate the people evaluating the apps. Gather some people that have skills and well informed about their field. Tech/Design/etc. Then you'll be able to get _real_ feedback from those who knows what they're talking about. It's not a guaranteed hit/miss but I think the result would be better than mass voting from randoms. ~~~ unreal37 I would disagree about needing incentives/rewards to get people voting. You are the counterargument to your own comment. You just commented on this idea here on HN, for free, with no incentive and no reward. People like us often love to see new ideas, and comment on them and join in a discussion with the founders. "This is great", "I don't think this will work", "this would be better if...", "what are you planning to do about..." LaunchSky is "Hacker News for Ideas Not News" I've dreamed of having something like this before, and I would love to see LaunchSky do it. I think I would go there often enough to see other people's ideas and provide my own. I think this is best aimed at the same people that like Hacker News, NOT the general Facebook population. ~~~ vlokshin Thanks! I'd like to think the same, but from a numbers standpoint -- we're probably going to need a fairly clear incentive for the "reviewer/early adopter" side. It's going to be a balance of quality vs. volume of reviewers, but these will all be some fun challenges to figure out and tackle. edit: Your comment (after re-reading) made my day. ~~~ caleywoods I commented below regarding this issue of voting for free and it not costing them anything. I feel like, after reading your comments parent and your reply that I'm replying to, I feel that it might be beneficial to have each user on the site have a weight calculated from various criteria (that probably doesn't exist yet). Firstly let's assume that submitted ideas have a lifecycle, something like this: Inception (posting to the site) Green-lit (threshold of submitters required Yes votes) Lack of Interest (threshold not met) Released (product launch) Let's say a project reaches Release (from our above defined lifecycle), all users who voted "Yes, I would use this" for the project might need to verify they've used the app or risk having their weight ratio degraded (thus making future "Yes, I would use this" votes count for less). If the project they 'backed' fails then there is no change to the weight. This solves one side of the problem for idea submitters. They should be able to view something like an "Interest Index" which takes into account the weight of users who have stated they would use it. Eventually if I clicked "Yes, I'd use this" on 40 projects and 20 of them reached release and yet I never followed through with using them, my vote might not count for squat any longer. Just a thought. ~~~ vlokshin I definitely like the idea/approach. It may complicate the initial product, but we could always keep this less exposed to end users (or at least the voters/reviewers). Thanks for the awesome feedback / insight / thought -- I really appreciate you taking the time to think though it for us! ------ lutusp Steve Jobs famously avoided asking people what they wanted, instead _showing_ them what they wanted. His philosophy was often described as arrogant, but guess what? He was frequently right -- people often accepted his ideas about a product they couldn't imagine until he showed it to them. ~~~ nicksergeant I don't think this approach is appropriate for the vast majority of entrepreneurs. Mr. Jobs was a unique character with a perspective on the world that few others (appear to) share. It seems that entrepreneurs these days are concerned with "building something awesome (to also make money)", and that's not what Steve Jobs did. ~~~ lutusp > I don't think this approach is appropriate for the vast majority of > entrepreneurs. Only the successful ones. It's one thing to create a product that answers an existing need (and that may already have competition). It's quite another to create a product that people don't realize they need until they see it. The classic example is the personal computer. Steve Wozniak tried and failed to interest HP (his employer at the time) in backing his personal project, a small, one-board computer that anyone could own. HP didn't see the potential, so Woz was allowed to carry the idea away from his employer and pursue it on his own. As Jobs often said, it's the difference between evolutionary and revolutionary. Don't get me wrong -- I personally never got along with Jobs and couldn't work with him, but in this respect, he was often proven right. ~~~ danso I don't know if I agree that your Woz example is the best one...it's one thing to not be able to convince management, it's another not to be able to convince the average Joe. ~~~ lutusp > ... it's one thing to not be able to convince management, it's another not > to be able to convince the average Joe. I agree with your point, but Woz and Jobs convinced both -- they convinced both financial backers and the public. I'm just saying it's possible, and such stories often accompany noteworthy technological breakthroughs. ------ __abc Stop building movies NO ONE wants to see, books NO ONE wants to read, etc, etc. Nothing will stop this from happening ... especially when the cost of build/deploy <= cost of comprehensive research In regards to the site ... Asking someone "yeah, I'd use that", vs getting them to download and use (ignoring pay, but that's also key :)) is totally different ~~~ vlokshin "especially when the cost of build/deploy <= cost of comprehensive research" you REALLY think so? I agree with your first few points, but I disagree on that last (quoted) bit entirely. Building/deploying something of real quality (and potential viability) can be very costly. The point of the app is to make that "cost of comprehensive research" negligible in comparison to what it is today. Either you pay a ton to do it right or train yourself forever on how to do it cheap (which is a cost of time). We want to lessen that burden exponentially. ~~~ __abc It's definitely a tool if you want "a" data point "really fast". I won't argue against that. However, I would use it for "just" that and nothing more. I wouldn't use it to drive the entire decision. Per your point of disagreement, and depending entirely on the type of app, I stand by my point. You're anchoring the disagreement "quality". A down and dirty "test the waters" app is a lot less expensive than a "quality" app (ignoring apps that can't really have a down and dirty, like complex video games or something). I would agree, that on average, a "quality" app would take longer then a down and dirty "test the water" app. However, so long as you can get a down and dirty out the door so easily, we will see crap in the app stores. ------ danso This concept has three competing flaws: 1\. The most obvious: how do you prevent your ideas from being stolen? 2\. If your idea is vague ("A site where people can post Hipstamatic-like photos, but easily share them!") then you will get a lukewarm response, even if the actual idea (and implementation) is great. 3\. If you spend the time fleshing out your idea into something that excites users...then you've committed enough resources to not need a site like this. Also, see #1. In other words, users are at a catch-22 here. Your site wants to keep them from launching half-baked ideas by providing them with audience opinion. And yet, in order to get validation, a user will have to show off a well-baked idea. ~~~ xauronx That was my first thought. I mean, I'm not one to try to steal someones idea. In fact, I'm pretty repulsed by the idea. So the first thing I thought of is "If I browse this for an hour and see 100 ideas, those are 100 ideas I'm ruling out from making myself". I know I could still do them, but still, I might think of an app that creates foldable printed figures on my own next week but if I saw it on there first I would just feel like I was copying and not do it. ------ tdtran How about using LaunchSky to verify LaunchSky idea itself? I would be interested in seeing the result report. Until then, thanks but no thanks. ~~~ friendly_chap Launchception! ------ acabral Interesting approach. Regarding the idea that users would need something to keep coming back to the site to approve an idea,as said previously, offering a reward might be the best solution, but, to prevent them going around and voting on everything, why not give the power of giving rewards to the owner of the idea? ~~~ tchock23 Once users realized that the owner of the idea was the one assigning points, they may just offer up feedback that panders to the owner in order to receive rewards. ------ pydave Strange, this is almost like what I thought pvsh should be (<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4867883>) -- you're connecting people who want things with people who are making them. Except instead of letting people generate ideas for entrepreneurs to jump on, you're asking entrepreneurs to lift their skirt before they're ready for the dance. Also, you don't have the monetization I'd expect (or at least you're not talking about it yet). Edit: I just realized that "If you sign up now, you’ll get to submit your first idea free" implies you're monetizing the entrepreneurs who use the site -- so all content is paid content. ~~~ vlokshin The monetization isn't finalized yet -- we're getting feedback now (mostly with this post). Our hunch is to charge a minimal amount for each idea submission; something significantly less than the money/time/effort for a splash page / domain / launchrock / ads. The early adopters would never pay; we instead need to figure out a clear way to incentivize them to come to each idea, the dashboard of ideas in general, and back again. ------ gyazbek I for one would NOT use this service. There is a lot of mistrust in this industry, and no one wants to potentially give away an idea for the sake of third party market analysis that isn't that well known or confidential. ~~~ vlokshin Point taken, and we do appreciate the feedback. The same can be said for KickStarter/Indiegogog/Everyone else. We're trying to build the same model, but hoping (and assuming) that people are quicker to give their interest, and sign up as an early adopter for an idea if its built, than to open up their wallets to new ideas. As far as giving away their idea, we're definitely going to try to do what we can to protect those posting from a legal side, or at least offer a VERY convenient way to say "hey! this was mine on this day" ~~~ tmh88j > KickStarter/Indiegogog/Everyone else. Don't you generally have to show something off (as in hey, look what I'm in the process of, care to join?) with those to get backing? This is just pitching an idea, right? ------ jmathai Some feedback. I was curious to read some ideas. Reluctantly, I put my email address in. Then I was asked to spread the word (on what exactly, I'm not sure since I haven't been able to use it yet). Dismissing that message took me back to the screen asking me if I'm interested. So all that "hidden" content may or may not be real. I'll never know. It looked real though. But at this point I'd probably never use the site again. Felt like I was taken. At least you got my email address, I guess :). That's all constructive criticism. I know it's hard to decide exactly how to roll out some of this stuff but hope it helps. ~~~ vlokshin It definitely does help, and sorry that the feeling was "taken". The product isn't there yet, so our goal is the email drop -- so that we have a way to contact a user-base once the product is built. But your concern is definitely heard, and we'll be sure the real product never evokes that kind of emotion out of the users. Promise :). ~~~ xauronx I think you might need some large font that says "We're not ready QUITE YET, but we'll contact you when we are... <email box>". I thought I was signing up for the site, as it currently stands. ------ bringking It seems to me that this will provide customer validation of questionable quality to the entrepreneur. You can't effectively gauge the viability of an idea by asking people to predict the future. When asked; "Would you use this awesome service?", most people will say "Absolutely"! However, when the time comes to pay for it/download it they will not actually do it. Great looking site, however I feel like the data generated will be less useful than talking to your customers about their past behavior. ~~~ vlokshin We've discussed the idea of gaming good vs. bad support. Think: Angel investors, but with their likes/sign-up instead of money. Still, this won't be an easy one to crack, but we're committed to providing feedback/support of actual value, as well as a pool of potential users, to people coming with a new idea. ------ Irregardless I see several fatal flaws that are already addressed by other services, like Kickstarter and focus groups: 1\. No reward for participation (bad for users) 2\. No promise of a finished product (bad for users) 3\. Users have no personal stake in anything they "support" (bad for developers) 4\. Highly biased and narrow audience (bad for developers) What people think they want and what they'd actually pay for are often very different things. Contrary to your title, this seems like a great way to encourage developers to build even more crappy apps that no one will ever buy. ------ steve_j I've been giving this some thought (this would be an idea to share on LaunchSky) ... what about a web site where people could go and ask for something to be developed? The ideas get voted and commented on and then developers could go away make it and know it's something that has a market. It could even evolve into a competition where apps are being developed for the stuff that people want, plus the web site would give exposure to the apps. Maybe this could be a section of LaunchSky? Just an idea. ------ joeld42 I'd use this. Certainly some ideas are different and exciting enough that you wouldn't want to audition them publicly. But for the most part, it's execution that matters. This site seems like a good idea to gauge reaction to those ideas. How are you planning to get a good volume of user feedback on these ideas? That seems like a pretty big challenge. Rather than a "yay or nah" style, I'd rather if the feedback were more open ended. Such as: "What do you like about this idea? What don't you like?" ~~~ vlokshin I do think that's one of our biggest (if not the biggest) challenge. Our "chicken" in the equation would be the entrepreneurs who post. We need to incentivize them to post to a safe platform that they get something out of, but in a way that saves them time and/or money (otherwise they'd use their own launchpage + adwords and/or the launchrock-esque services). Our "egg" is the volume of (quality) users for feedback. Then how do you get more chickens who make more eggs? There might be a tiered posting service. Maybe one free, one cheap (feedback + full share feature + meta tags for SEO), and one more expensive -- but includes targeted keywords that you choose and targeted feedback from a group of users. Too early to tell at this point, but with enough awesome feedback like this, and eventually some initial users, I'm sure we'll get this figured out. ~~~ joeld42 I don't think it's really a chicken/egg here. If you could instantly solve the problem of having lots of entrepreneurs posting that wouldn't necessarily create any value for potential users (beyond app discovery, which there are better places to go to discover existing apps, not just potential apps). What's in it for the user giving me feedback on my app idea? You could pay them, but then that would make it really expensive to run and end up with people gaming the system with low-quality feedback. The best thing I can think of (and I'm not sure it would work) is to have the developer pledge, say, 20 promo codes to you. Then if someone reviews the app idea, they get the promise of a free copy once the app was released. I would be willing to do this, but I know other developers are more reluctant than me to part with their promo codes. ~~~ vlokshin solid idea. Giving the reviewers something of value is going to be a challenge. Not impossible, but a challenge. ------ jontaylor Just a thought. You could charge for submissions to be displayed publicly as a five star rating based on some metric to obscure the exact numbers. This would protect the submitters to a degree from poachers as people can only see with low resolution if the project is desirable. It would also be a source or revenue. I think this project is a good idea and look forward to seeing it live. ------ georgeorwell How is this different from <http://www.ideaswatch.com/> ? How do you plan to make money? ------ louischatriot That's interesting, with two caveats: \- Many people may be wary of giving an idea for which they see a huge potential, but it may not be a problem for side projects \- I don't see what the people giving their opinion would gain. Maybe it's just the thrill of being pitched new ideas regularly? Cool idea in any case. ~~~ vlokshin You've nailed both of the biggest things we'll be tackling. For people posting: quick, protected, easy, elegant, keeps early adopters so that you can reach out them if it's built. For those evaluating an idea: Their absolutely needs to be a clear incentive. We'll get this figured out. Maybe a field for "early adopter perks" or a ladder of incentives for how soon someone supports an idea. In any case, this is definitely something we have to nail. ------ toddmorey Here's my question: how do you get & keep a critical mass of people on the site to evaluate these ideas? ~~~ vlokshin Admittedly, this is one of our biggest challenges. It's the classic chicken/egg problem (posting ideas and actually evaluating them). Based on feedback (from this post, for example), we'd like to figure out exactly how we incentivize that "egg" side of the equation. One idea was to have people post a (optional) perk with their idea (i.e. how we're letting anyone who signs up post a free first idea), but this may be hard for ideas that don't exist yet. Another idea is to have a ladder of "I'll build X if Y sign up" so 1000 users interested gets you a basic web app, 10000 is iOS and Android, etc. Outside of that, we're going to gauge the interest in the idea and translate that buying up traffic initially. The last thing we want is a repository of awesome ideas and no one to evaluate them. Addressing that is a top concern for us as we build out the actual product. ~~~ wtvanhest Another idea: Developer A posts there idea, and utilizes their social network to get feedback. Developer A's social network looks at Developer A's project, then comments etc. then is forwarded to Developer B's project. You will lose a lot of conversions between A and B, but it would add value to have completely outside people evaluating ideas and signing up for the email list. You could create a system where the more people come through a link created by developer A, the more referrals they get. That would incentivize developer A to not be a free rider. ------ protomyth “Make sure decisions are fact-based, not faith based.” - Steve Blank If you're trying to get a lot of user opinions in the US from normal people who buy stuff, that phrase at the top of the site is not going to go over so well if its also displayed on the public comment page. ------ aguidrevitch Ok, suppose you have entrepreneurs that are ready to use launchsky, they've created a bunch of projects to evaluate. What about end-users ? I don't really care what other entrepreneurs think about the idea, I do want to get in touch with potential users ! ------ shizamdamnit I can't ever see myself using a service like this for fear of somebody developing my idea first. Many of the good 'apps' out there quickly generate copy-cat apps, this will just take the originators out of the loop :) ~~~ rplnt Good apps generate copy-cats, not ideas of good apps. Ideas are worthless. Everyone has them. ~~~ vlokshin Everyone has ideas, and some even have the ability to execute. We're trying to marry the two. Full disclosure: My team needs this product. We've built apps no one wants. We don't want to to do that again. We're hoping others are in the same boat. ~~~ johnmurch A way to test the market or get social proof that there is a market for this. Checkout how buffer did it - [http://blog.bufferapp.com/idea-to-paying- customers-in-7-week...](http://blog.bufferapp.com/idea-to-paying-customers- in-7-weeks-how-we-did-it) You need 2 things: Landing page to describe product/etc and a community to support say yes/no BTW did you see <http://www.startuprocketlauncher.com/> on HN today as well? ~~~ vlokshin Awesome first link. For the second, no I didn't see that until now. Hmmm. I wonder if that's somebody being clever to prove a point of how easy ideas are to steal? If so, kudos for the irony :) ------ vidyesh But not necessarily what you have in mind can be conveyed properly in words. Its better to get a prototype instead of pitching the idea. ~~~ vlokshin Prototypes can be costly. Prototypes no one wants can be costly AND devastating. ~~~ alanctgardner2 If you're spending a lot of money on a MVP, and you're devastated when it fails, maybe you aren't cut out for this line of work. There needs to be a happy medium between devoting your life to a product nobody wants and throwing a million ideas at the wall. There's a minimum commitment level somewhere above "Just ask people", that's where you create a reasonable functional prototype and start soliciting feedback. ------ steve_j Will the site be having Non-Disclosure Agreements? ~~~ vlokshin We're trying to be smart about this. LaunchSky is to test out what you should build and what you shouldn't. We're currently gauging that interest with the HN community. If the interest in this product is there, we'll of course invest in the right legal grounds to do what's possible to protect some of the ideas being posted. This can get pricy, but if the interest is there, it's definitely something we're willing to invest in. If not, it'll simply be a tool for "build it or not" without the legal backbone (at least initially). ~~~ steve_j "Built it or not" sounds good. I have ideas but don't have the time to develop them all. Just the worry that I/another user might share a game changer idea and someone else builds it before I/we do. ~~~ jack-r-abbit I tend to agree with your worry. But I think many have the attitude of "Tough shit... if someone builds your idea before you then it probably wasn't defendable anyway." ~~~ vlokshin I'm more on your side of this opinion... but I doubt the majority of the world is. You'd be really surprised the "ideas" i've seen some throw my way after making me sign an NDA. Ironically enough, I guess I can't talk about those... ------ icoder I gave you my email address, now how can I submit my first idea, as was promised? ("Sign up now, and submit your first idea for free") ~~~ skisly "We’ll be launching LaunchSky early 2013." I think you have to wait till 2013 ------ hdra interesting idea, just entered my email there, one thing though, i tried clicking the area outside the 'pop-up' box there countless time trying to get rid of it and see whats behind it. I initially even entered my email in hope to get rid of the pop-up before realizing how stupid I was.. maybe this is intentional, but still, confusing. ------ vlokshin This is a new project we'll be building at DarwinApps. I'd love to hear feedback/criticisms/advice from the HN community! ~~~ bithive123 How do I browse your website? I seem to be stuck in a modal window and everything else is unclickable. ~~~ unreal37 There is no web site. It's just a mockup of a website. ------ vlokshin PG, or any mods - Why did this get downvoted? It was #2 on the front page and is suddenly gone. Can you please let me know what happened? ------ azilnik I really like this. How will it work in terms of intellectual property? ------ skisly Looks pretty cool, but why wouldn't I just post my idea to KickStarter? ~~~ steve_j I think your missing the point of the web site. It could be used to find out if an idea is worth persuing and if it is, you could then go to kickstarter... that's how I see it. ~~~ jlarocco Neat. I'm going to launch a site where you post an idea to see if it's worth posting it to LaunchSky to see if it's worth posting to Kickstarter... Seriously, though, I don't see how that's not already handled on Kickstarter. If there's not enough interest in your idea it won't reach its funding goal. What's the point of a pre-screening step? ------ OrdojanAndrius I build apps that I need so at worst I have at least one customer. ------ jcomis this is frustrating, I just want to poke around and browser the site to see what is what. This seems to be quite difficult to accomplish. ------ caleywoods Tag line: Ideas for free. ------ marcamillion This is so meta.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The Mythical Team-Month - DanielRibeiro http://speakerdeck.com/u/searls/p/the-mythical-team-month ====== searls Just saw this posted here. If anyone wants to comment on the presentation, I'll monitor this thread to discuss :-) There's also a screencast of the talk up on vimeo: <https://vimeo.com/38321427> ~~~ DanielRibeiro Thanks! The presentation was pretty good (it has fallen into the category of things I wish I had been aware of 8 months ago, along with the litmus test from Mary Poppendiek[1]). Unfortunately this required one more upvote to get to the first page (now it is too late for HN). You should try resubmitting it some other day (adding / or ? to the end of the url if needed, or better yet writing a blog post linking to it), as it is really insightful. [1] [http://www.inbox- online.com/page/blog/en.html?view=post&...](http://www.inbox- online.com/page/blog/en.html?view=post&id=74)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: How can I get myself out of this? - potta_coffee Dear HN, I've been in my current job about five months. Initially the job was supposed to be a simple Python web-dev gig, but the job description morphed and I found myself the "manager" of a tiny development team.<p>We're supposed to be doing a re-write of an existing Django application for my company. I was hesitant about a big-bang re-write for obvious reasons but the CEO decided they want it that way, so we're doing it. CEO decided that I should be the manager of the project, but here are my problems:<p>1. One of the other programmers told the CEO he thought he could write this app in his sleep (he can't) and have it completed in less than six months (he can't). Now CEO is breathing down my neck to have this thing done by March of next year, and we've barely begun the discovery process.<p>2. CEO gave one of my developers, a key resource, permission to work nights, remotely. This developer is a key part of the team which is now completely fragmented.<p>3. CEO gave my developer permission to take 10 days off because he's been putting in so many hours...hours I told him not to work.<p>4. CEO wanted us to divert from building the new app to add features to the old one, now CEO tells me that they're frustrated because we're not making progress on the new application.<p>5. CEO tells me I'm not assertive enough with developers, after undermining every decision I've tried to make.<p>6. Essentially, the CEO is running the show, I'm not managing anything but the "manager" title allows them to make me their punching bag.<p>What should I do HN? Should I try to save this? Should I just start looking for jobs again? I've only been here 5 months and I'm worried about what this will look like to prospective employers. Also, I just relocated my wife and kids for this job and moving again will be a huge PITA. ====== CarolineW Random advice from a random person on the internet, possibly affecting your life decisions ... take this for what it's worth. You need to decide what you want to accomplish. If things can be changed, would you want this job anyway? If you do want this job (assuming it can be saved/fixed) then what is it that needs to be changed? Your point 6 nails it - as I see it you need to go to the CEO and say that while your title is "manager", your "team" is actually going to and taking direction from the CEO. As a result, you say, you are unable to do the job. Now you need to make the decision as to what you want, or you can simply leave it up to them. Choose: * Say that you require the authority as well as the responsibilities, so your team must only take direction from you, except in exceptional circumstances which must then be confirmed by you; * Say that since you are not given the authority of a manager then you require that you return to being a member of the team; * Give them the choice between the above two options, and that whatever is agreed must include written confirmation of the separation of duties. But you must decide what it is you want to achieve. Yes, it would be a PITA to relocate again, but as it stands you will be miserable, in danger of being "let go" regardless, and have no control. If you _do_ take control of your own destiny, at least you will have some control! You have the title of manager. That doesn't just mean that you tell your team what to do, it also means that you must manage your relationship with _your_ manager - the CEO. Perhaps even start by saying that you are keen to make a success of your position, you need their assistance and guidance, and that to do your job properly you must be given the authority. To phrase it like that means they demonstrate power by giving you the control you need. FWIW. As I say, random advice from a random stranger on the internet. ~~~ potta_coffee Thanks for the advice. You're not saying anything revolutionary, but it's good to hear some perspective from the outside. I'm in a place where I think having the needed conversation could be pretty volatile. A bridge burning situation. And I guess that answers all my questions. ------ jason_slack Honestly and with all due respect, show the CEO you are the manager he asked you to be. Tell him, exactly what you wrote here in this post. One by one and let him hear the words and answer you back. If you can't meet the imposed date you need to be upfront and ASAP. Don't let missing the ship date ruin your reputation. Your wife and kids will be fine if you need to find other work. If I were in your shoes and the face to face didn't go well I would start looking. By not going well I mean the CEO doesn't see your concerns as issues. ~~~ potta_coffee Thanks for the advice. Regarding the imposed date, every single time it comes up, I push back, saying "I have not, and cannot, make a promise that we can deliver by that date." The fact that the date keeps resurfacing in our conversations tells me this person isn't listening. ~~~ sjs382 "I have not, and cannot, make a promise that we can deliver by that date." You might mean that as "I've been given 6 months. I expect to need 12 months if everything goes perfectly and there are no surprises. With surprises, 15-18 months seems realistic." but you haven't communicated that. It's likely that the CEO is hearing "I can't guarantee six months... We'll be cutting it close." and s/he is keeping the bullseye at 6 months and expecting it to take seven. Or maybe s/he thinks that they can rein the scope back in (if necessary) with a month remaining and hit the deadline. Be _explicit_ with your concerns. ~~~ potta_coffee Thank you.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: How to handle 50GB of transaction data each day? (200GB during peak) - NietTim Recently I switched jobs and joined some old employers and friends on a new endeavour, an advertisement platform. So far things have been very good, so good in fact that we're quickly growing out of our current infrastructure. Last christmas everything went crazy and the, then only developer, rewrote a bunch of things to make it scale better.<p>Currently we write away every single transaction to txt files and once every X minutes gather those and start inserting them into 2 Mysql shards. After that we run a bunch of group by queries to generate cross table reports. Currently our CMS is very limited by this, you can only view data relations in the predefined tables and we would like to have (a lot) more flexibility here.<p>Perhaps the biggest issue of all is that both I and the other developer do not have experience with handeling this much data. We both have worked on systems which handle a fair bit of data, but not nearly as much as this. We've been looking at MapReduce for MongoDB but already run into problems when we try to insert a weeks worth of data, which is about 350gb, because we only get so many IOPS at AWS. If we want more IOPS, it gets really expensive really fast. We're also not entirely sure yet if MongoDB and MapReduce is the way to go.<p>What I'm looking for is a few pointers to help us get headed in the right direction. Which databases should we be looking at? Should we be looking in an entirely different direction? Are there some (recent?) blog posts about this which can help us out? ====== ecaroth Not an answer to your question, but just a quick note- this is the first post in a long while on HN where I appreciate both the problem you are looking to solve and the honesty/sincerity you have in saying that you are not perfectly qualified to solve it but you know those here can help. From all of us on the community watching and lurking, thanks for your candor so we can all learn from this thread! ~~~ faizshah I think shopping around and recommending/evaluating these tools is pretty fun that's why these threads are always a blast. ------ haddr First of all, 50GB per day is easy. Now, maybe contrary to what they say below, do the following: * Don't use queues. Use logs, such as Apache Kafka for example. It is unlikely to lose any data, and in case of some failure, the log with transactions is still there for some time. Also Kafka guarantees order of messages, which might be important (or not). * Understand what is the nature of data and what are the queries that are made later. This is crucial for properly modeling the storage system. * Be careful with the noSQL cool-aid. If mature databases, such as postgreSQL can't handle the load, choose some NoSQL, but be careful. I would suggest HBase, but your mileage may vary. * NoSQL DBs typically limits queries that you might issue, so the modelling part is very important. * Don't index data that you don't need to query later. * If your schema is relational, consider de-normalization steps. Sometimes it is better to replicate some data, than to keep relational schema and make huge joins across tables. * Don't use MongoDB I hope it helps! ~~~ late2part Here here ; +1. Kafka = good. Postgres can do a TB; if you plan bigger than that consider Cassandra. Also consider protobuf instead of json.gz. ~~~ stuartaxelowen Or... Arrow?! :O JK it's too early :( ------ mattbillenstein First of all, ingest your data as .json.gz -- line delimited json that's gzipped -- chunk this by time range, perhaps hourly, on each box. Periodically upload these files to the cloud -- S3 or Google CloudStorage, or both for a backup. You can run this per-node, so it scales perfectly horizontally. And .json.gz is easy to work with -- looking for a particular event in the last hour? gunzip -c .json.gz \| grep '<id>' ... Most of the big data tools out there will work with data in this format -- BigQuery, Redshift, EMR. EMR can do batch processing against this data directly from s3 -- but may not be suitable for anything other than batch processing. BigQuery and/or Redshift are more targeted towards analytics workloads, but you could use them to saw the data into another system that you use for OLAP -- MySQL or Postgres probably. BigQuery has a nice interface and it's a better hosted service than Redshift IMO. If you like that product, you can do streaming inserts in parallel to your gcs/s3 uploading process for more real-time access to the data. The web interface is not bad for casual exploration of terabytes of raw data. And the price isn't terrible either. I've done some consulting in this space -- feel free to reach out if you'd like some free advice. ~~~ devbug Sounds like you know your stuff! I couldn't find any email on your profile, do you mind sharing it? ~~~ chejazi Bottom of this page: [http://vazor.com/unicode/](http://vazor.com/unicode/) ------ nunobrito We need to handle data in a similar level as you mention and also use plain text files as only reliable medium to store data. A recent blog: [http://nunobrito1981.blogspot.de/2016/02/how-big-was- triplec...](http://nunobrito1981.blogspot.de/2016/02/how-big-was-triplecheck- tech-in-2015.html) My advice is to step away from AWS (because of price as you noted). Bare metal servers are the best startup friend for large data in regards to performance and storage. This way you avoid virtualized CPU or distributed file systems that are more of a bottleneck than advantage. Look for GorillaServers at [https://www.gorillaservers.com/](https://www.gorillaservers.com/) You get 40Tb storage with 8~16 cores per server, along with 30Tb of bandwidth included for roughly 200 USD/month. This should remove the IOPS limitation and provide enough working space to transform the data. Hope this helps. ~~~ look_lookatme Are you using GorillaServers solely for data harvesting/crunching or for all of your infrastructure? ------ harel Here are a few suggestions based on 6+ years in adtech (which have just came to a close, never again thank you): Use a Queue. RabbitMQ is quite good. Instead of writing to files, generate data/tasks on the queue and have them consumed by more than one client. The clients should handle inserting the data to the database. You can control the pipe by the number of clients you have consuming tasks, and/or by rate limiting them. Break those queue consuming clients to small pieces. Its ok to queue item B on the queue while processing item A. * If you data is more fluid and changing all the time, and/or if it comes in JSON serializable format, consider switching to postgresql ^9.4, and use the JSONB columns to store this data. You can index/query those columns and performance wise its on par (or surpasses) MongoDB. * Avoid AWS at this stage. like commented by someone here - bare metal is a better friend to you. You'll also know exactly how much you're paying each month. no surprises. I can't recommend Softlayer enough. * Don't over complicate things. If you can think of a simple solution to something - its preferable than the complicated solution you might have had before. * If you're going the queue route suggested above, you can pre-process the data while you get it in. If its going to be placed into buckets, do it then, if its normalised - do it then. The tasks on the queue should be atomic and idempotent. You can use something like memcached if you need your clients to communicate between eachother (like checking if a queue item is not already processed by another consumer and thus is locked). ~~~ unknownknowns > * If you data is more fluid and changing all the time, and/or if it comes in > JSON serializable format, consider switching to postgresql ^9.4, and use the > JSONB columns to store this data. You can index/query those columns and > performance wise its on par (or surpasses) MongoDB. Would it be worthwhile to switch from MongoDB to Postgres (when MySQL is being used alongside Mongo)? I'd have to do lots of testing with it to know for sure though, I guess. I use Mongo for timeseries-like data, and have >1 billion documents in Mongo currently. Querying super old data is pretty slow (and not needed generally), but querying recent data (recent being the last month) is "fast enough". ~~~ harel If your setup makes sense for you, its fine - stay with it. focus on real problem, not ones people on this thread think you have :) I'm not one of those mongo bashers. I've used mongo before for the same purpose you do - time series statistical data along side a postgres db for everything else. And it worked fine for me. However, at that time postgresql was pre 9.4. Today I would have kept it all in postgres and simply archived older data if needed. And to be fair, its not even a "problem" until you need to filter by one data source and sort by the other. We had to be creative when we got to those problems. As for my choice of Postgres over mySql - that is for 2 reasons - first being that postgres is not owned by Oracle, and second that postgres is more mature, feature rich and reliable than mysql (i.e., better). ------ TheIronYuppie Disclaimer: I work at Google. Have you looked at Google at all? Cloud Bigtable runs the whole of Google's Advertising Business and could scale per your requirements. [https://cloud.google.com/bigtable/docs/](https://cloud.google.com/bigtable/docs/) ~~~ ukd1 This is super easy to get started with, plus really cheap storage wise. Query wise, it can get "expensive" (tbh, still cheap) if you do it badly. It's really fast. ------ lazyjones I'm not sure I understand precisely what kind of data you are processing and in what way, but it sounds like a PostgreSQL job on a beefy server (lots of RAM) with SSD storage. Postgres is very good at complex queries and concurrent write loads and if you need to scale quickly beyond single server setups, you can probably move your stuff to Amazon Redshift with little effort. Wouldn't recommend "big data" i.e distributed setups at that size yet unless your queries are extremely parallel workloads and you can pay the cost. In my previous job we processed 100s of millions of row updates daily on a table with much contention and ~200G size and used a single PostgreSQL server with (now somewhat obsoleted by modern PCIe SSDs) TMS RamSAN storage, i.e. Fibre-Channel based Flash. We had some performance bottlenecks due to many indexes, triggers etc. but overall, live query performance was very good. ------ zengr Doing real time query for report generation for data growing by 50gb per day is a hard problem. Realistically, this is what I would do (I work on something very similar but not really in adtech space): 1\. Load data in text form (assuming it sits in S3) inside hadoop (EMR/Spark) 2\. Generate reports you need based on your data and cache them in mysql RDS. 3\. Serve the pre-generated reports to your user. You can get creative here and generate bucketed reports where user will fill its more "interactive". This approach will take you a long way and when you have time/money/people, maybe you can try getting fancier and better. Getting fancy: If you truly want near-real time querying capabilities I would looks at apache kylin or linkedin pinot. But I would stay away from those for now. Bigtable: As someone pointed out, bigtable is good solution (although I haven't used it) but since you are on AWS ecosystem, I would stick there. ------ wsh91 We're having a good time with Cassandra on AWS ingesting more than 200 GiB per day uncompressed. I don't know how you're running your IOPS numbers, but consider allocating large GP2 EBS volumes rather than PIOPS--you'll get a high baseline for not that much money. The provisos you'll see about knowing how you expect to read before you start writing are absolutely true. :) (Hope that might be helpful! A bunch of us hang out on IRC at #cassandra if you're curious.) ------ yuanchuan I once worked on similar project. Each day, the amount of the data coming in is about 5TB. If your data are event data, e.g. User activity, clicks, etc, these are non- volatile data which should preserve as-is and you want to enrich them later on for analysis. You can store these flat files in S3 and use EMR (Hive, Spark) to process them and store it in Redshift. If your files are character delimited files, you can easily create a table definition with Hive/Spark and query it as if it is a RDBMS. You can process your files in EMR using spot instances and it can be as cheap as less than a dollar per hour. ------ mindcrash You probably might want to read this (for free): [http://book.mixu.net/distsys/single- page.html](http://book.mixu.net/distsys/single-page.html) And pay a little to read this book: [http://www.amazon.com/Designing-Data- Intensive-Applications-...](http://www.amazon.com/Designing-Data-Intensive- Applications-Reliable-Maintainable/dp/1449373321) And this one: [http://www.amazon.com/Big-Data-Principles-practices- scalable...](http://www.amazon.com/Big-Data-Principles-practices- scalable/dp/1617290343) Nathan Marz brought Apache Storm to the world, and Martin Kleppmann is pretty well known for his work on Kafka. Both are very good books on building scalable data processing systems. ------ alexanderdaw 1\. Stream your data into Kafka using flat JSON objects. 2\. Consume your kafka Feeds using a Camus Map Reduce job (a library from linked in that will output hdfs directories with the data). 3\. Transform the hdfs directories into usable folders for each vertical your interested in, think of each output directory as an individual table or database. 4\. Use HIVE to create an "external table" that references the transformed directories. Ideally your transformation job will create merge-able hourly partition directories. Importantly you will want to use the JSON SERDE for your hive configuration. 5\. Generate your reports using hive queries. This architecture will get you to massive, massive scale and is pretty resilient to spikes in traffic because of the Kafka buffer. I would avoid Mongo / mysql like the plague in this case, a lot of designs focus on the real time aspect for a lot of data like this, but if you take a hard look at what you really need, its batch map reduce on a massive scale and a dependable schedule with linear growth metrics. With an architecture like this deployed to AWS EMR (or even kinesis / s3 / EMR) you could grow for years. Forget about the trendy systems, and go for the dependable tool chains for big data. ------ lafay We faced a very similar problem when we started Kentik two years ago, except in our case the "transactions" are network traffic telemetry that we collect from our customers' physical network infrastructure, and providing super-fast ad hoc queries over that data is our core service offering. We looked at just about every open source and commercial platform that we might use as a backend, and decided that none were appropriate, for scale, maturity, or fairness / scheduling. So we ended up building, from scratch, something that looks a bit like Google's Dremel / BigQuery, but runs on our own bare metal infrastructure. And then we put postgres on top of that using Foreign Data Wrappers so we could write standard SQL queries against it. Some blog posts about the nuts and bolts you might find interesting: [https://www.kentik.com/postgresql-foreign-data- wrappers/](https://www.kentik.com/postgresql-foreign-data-wrappers/) [https://www.kentik.com/metrics-for- microservices/](https://www.kentik.com/metrics-for-microservices/) If we were starting today, we might consider Apache Drill, although I haven't looked at the maturity and stability of that project recently. ------ asolove Read "Designing data intensive applications" ([http://dataintensive.net/](http://dataintensive.net/)), which is an excellent introduction to various techniques for solving data problems. It won't specifically tell you what to do, but will quickly acclimate you to available approaches and how to think about their trade offs. ~~~ rantanplan Although an awesome book, as I've bought it, maybe it would be useful to inform any interested buyers that not all chapters are ready yet. i.e. it hasn't been released officially and it doesn't have a final release date. Right now the first 9(out of 12) chapters are finished and they're really insightful. ------ jamiequint Consider using CitusData to scale out Postgres horizontally. You can shard by time and basically get linear speedup based on # of shards. Its extremely fast and will be open source in early Q2 I think. You then can put your Postgres instances on boxes with SSD instead of IOPS. Writes also scale mostly linearly. ------ pklausler 50GiB/day is less than a megabyte per second. Surely you wouldn't be bandwidth-limited on a real device, even consumer SSDs are in the 100-600 MiB/s range IIRC. Can you do anything to increase your bytes per IOP in your current environment if you're IOP-limited? ------ exacube If your data is growing at this rate (and you plan to keep this data around), you'd want a _distributed database_ that can scale to terabytes. But it might be overkill if you dont care for data consistency (i.e., you dont need to read it "right away" after you do a write): If you just want reports (and are okay getting them in the matter of minutes), then you can continue storing them in flat files and using apache HIVE/PIG- equivalent software (or whatever equivalent is hot right now, im out of date on this class of software). If you want a really good out-of-box solution for storage + data processing, google cloud products might be a really good bet. ------ agnivade Lots of good suggestions here. I won't say anything new but just wanted to stress on the data ingestion part. DO NOT write to txt files and read them again. This is unnecessary disk IO and you will run into a lot of problems later on. Instead, have an agent which writes into Kafka (like everyone mentioned), preferably using protobuff. Then have an aggregator which does the data extraction and analysis and puts them in some sort of storage. You can browse this thread to look for and decide what sort of storage is suitable for you. ------ ermack Its difficult to give answer without understanding of data processing you want. If you need to generate rich multi-dimension reports I recommend you create ETL pipeline into star-like sharded database (ala OLAP). Dimensions normalization sometime dramatically reduce data volume, most of dimensions even can fit into RAM. Actually 200Gb per day not so much in terms of throughput, you can manage it pretty well on PostgreSQL cluster (with help of pg_proxy). I think mySQL will also work OK. Dedicated hardware will be cheaper then AWS RDS. ------ matt_s Hire a DBA and stick with relational DB. We had (previous group, still running) a 40-50TB Oracle db that collected much more data daily. I would think you shouldn't be writing to a txt file, then doing imports into a DB. That's hitting disk multiple times and unnecessary. Relational DB's should handle 50GB of inserts in real time. IF you stream the data real time into the DB then you won't need to worry about your batch of 50GB taking longer time than you have to update. Other things I have observed from very large relational dbs: have one database for data capture and keep everything normalized. Your problem down the line is going to be purging data so if you can, partition tables by date so you can just drop partitions later. Setup a separate database for reporting purposes and import necessary data - possibly consolidated metrics, etc. into this per your business needs. Make sure your DBA understands the business needs of each, tunes the databases for data capture and reporting and is involved with specifying table layouts, etc. My rationale for sticking with RDBMS - you can solve this problem with that tech, the candidate pool is larger and the depth of knowledge, documentation and best practices on the technology is much deeper than NoSQL alternatives. ------ mslot disclaimer: I work for Citus Data The bottleneck is usually not I/O, but computing aggregates over data that continuously gets updated. This is quite CPU intensive even for smaller data sizes. You might want to consider PostgreSQL, with Citus to shard tables and parallelise queries across many PostgreSQL servers. There's another big advertising platform that I helped move from MySQL to PostgreSQL+Citus recently and they're pretty happy with it. They ingest several TB of data per day and a dashboard runs group-by queries, with 99.5% of queries taking under 1 second. The data are also rolled up into daily aggregates inside the database. There are inherent limitations to any distributed database. That's why there are so many. In Citus, not every SQL query works on distributed tables, but since every server is PostgreSQL 9.5, you do have a lot of possibilities. Looking at your username, are you based in the Netherlands by any chance? :) Some pointers: \- How CloudFlare uses Citus: [https://blog.cloudflare.com/scaling-out- postgresql-for-cloud...](https://blog.cloudflare.com/scaling-out-postgresql- for-cloudflare-analytics-using-citusdb/) \- Overview of Citus: [https://citus- conferences.s3.amazonaws.com/pgconf.ru-2016/Ci...](https://citus- conferences.s3.amazonaws.com/pgconf.ru-2016/CitusDB.pdf) \- Documentation: [https://www.citusdata.com/documentation/citusdb- documentatio...](https://www.citusdata.com/documentation/citusdb- documentation/) ------ foxbarrington Here's what I've done for ~200GB/day. Let's pretend you have server logs with urls that tell you referrer and whether or not the visit action was an impression or a conversion and you want stats by "date", "referrer domain", "action": * Logs are written to S3 (either ELB does this automatically, or you put them there) * S3 can put a message into an SQS queue when a log file is added * A "worker" (written in language of your choice running on EC2 or Lambda) pops the message off the queue, downloads the log, and "reduces" it into grouped counts. In this case a large log file would be "reduced" to lines where each line is [date, referrer domain, action, count] (e.g. [['2016-02-24', 'news.ycombinator.com', 'impression', 500], ['2016-02-24', 'news.ycombinator.com', 'conversion', 20], ...] * The reduction can either be persisted in a db that can handle further analysis or you reduce further first. ------ stuartaxelowen Check out LinkedIn's posts about log processing [0] and Apache Kafka. Handling data as streams of events lets you avoid spikey query-based processing, and helps you scale out horizontally. Partitioning lets you do joins, and you can still add databases as "materialized views" for query-ability. Add Secor to automatically write logs to S3 so you can feel secure in the face of data loss, and use replication of at least 3 in your Kafka topics. Also, start with instrumentation from DataDog or NewRelic from the start - it will show you the performance bottlenecks. 0: [https://engineering.linkedin.com/distributed-systems/log- wha...](https://engineering.linkedin.com/distributed-systems/log-what-every- software-engineer-should-know-about-real-time-datas-unifying) ------ bio4m If youre on a tight budget and IO is your main bottleneck it may be easier to purchase a number of decent spec desktop PC's with multiple SSD's in them. SSD's have really come down in price while performance and capacity have improved greatly. Same goes for RAM. (Assumption here is that time is less of a concern than cost at the moment and youre not averse to doing some devops work. Also assuming that the processing youre talking about is some sort of batch processing and not realtime) This way you can try a number of different strategies without blowing the bank on AWS instances (and worst case you have a spare workstation) ------ libx I would consider Unicage for your demands. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_C5GBblkH8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_C5GBblkH8) [https://www.bsdcan.org/2013/schedule/attachments/244_Unicage...](https://www.bsdcan.org/2013/schedule/attachments/244_UnicageDevelopment.pdf) In a shell (modified for speed and ease of use) get, insert, update data in a simple way, without all the fat from other mainstream (Java) solutions. ------ batmansmk We love those projects at my company (Inovia Team). Your load is not that big. You won't make any big mistake stack-wise, you just have to pick something you already have operated before in production at a smaller scale. Mysql, Postgres, Mongodb, Redis will be totally fine. We have a training on how to insert 1M lines a second with off-the-shelf free open source tools (SQL and NoSQL). Ping us if you are interested by getting the slidedeck. Tip: focus on how to backup and restore first, the rest will be easy! ------ nickpeterson Does the database grow 50GB or is that the size of the text files? ~~~ nickpeterson As a DBA, I'm duty-bound to say this, though I'm sure it will be drowned out by calls to 'Denormalize All the Things!'. DON'T denormalize for performance. It is a siren's call. Don't take my word for it, see anything written by Fabian Pascal, Hugh Darwen, Chris Date. If I was faced with a dataset of 50GB in a text file, being loaded into a database every day, I would normalize as much as possible to ensure that I'm not adding 50GB to a database everyday. What's the plan, to have a 20TB database in one year? No, instead I would focus on micro-optimizations at the database level. I would inspect the datatypes you're storing your data in. If it's a value with a limited domain (an enum in programming parlance), make sure you determine the theoretical maximum amount of values it could be, and use the equivalent numeric value to serve as a surrogate key in a separate table. If I know a value is never going to exceed a few thousand distinct values, I could use a smallint, which only uses 2 bytes, verses recording a char/varchar which is going to probably burn at least 4-5 bytes every row, likely much more. I believe ordering of columns matters in Postgres, so consult the documentation/Stackoverflow where swapping around column ordering can sometimes save several bytes per row. You'll notice quickly that you may have repeating 'groups' of similar values across your surrogate keys. For instance, if you had a StateID and a CountryID in the same table, chances are good the combinations of StateID and CountryID are finite, and could themselves go into their own table, which has its own surrogate key, so instead of storing two surrogates on every row, you could use only one. (Incidentally, chances are even better that CountryID should just be a reference on the State table itself, but this is just to illustrate the point). Now imagine you have sets of attributes that describe whole subsets of the information in your tables that are mutually exclusive. You could make two different tables with identical data structures. Then placing a row in one 'means' those other implicit value combinations. Thus you record information without actually storing it. The price here is on retrieval, you have to union the tables if you want to consider the whole set. That said, you may shave a large amount of storage. Views could be created to make this transparent to end users. Don't use an auto-incrementing index on the table, instead store a value that is iterated separately, and 'take' ranges of values at a time that get cached by routines that mean to load the data. Through this style of process, one can often turn a 1TB table into something a fraction of that size, at the cost of much harder to write queries. That said, there are other benefits, suddenly you can load values into the supporting tables first, then cache those values and load the main dataset without doing lookups into the additional related tables. The 'growth' of a database will slow considerably. Then you just preprocess the files, and 'COPY' them in, which should allow you load them on the order of minutes, not hours. ------ ljw1001 If the big issue is querying the data, consider redshift (expensive) or a self-hosted column-store database. Data will need to be loaded in a batch for this. Column stores will reduce iops through compression, and selective data loading, and because they don't have persistent indexes. To save IOPS on the early part of the process, consider using fast encryption (lz4 or snappy) to compress the records before writing to the file system. This might cut your IOPS in half. ------ pentium10 Use BigQuery, here is a nice presentation how to get going and some uses cases that get's you very familiar in the territory. I offer consulation also so you can reach out. [http://www.slideshare.net/martonkodok/complex-realtime- event...](http://www.slideshare.net/martonkodok/complex-realtime-event- analytics-using-bigquery-crunch-warmup) ------ i_don_t_know I don't know what I'm talking about or what you need, but I hear kdb is popular in the financial industry because supposedly it can handle large amounts of real-time financial information. [http://kx.com](http://kx.com) ------ jacques_chester Compare pricing on RDS, if doing it yourself is hurting. AWS also has Kinesis, which is deliberately intended to be a sort of event drain. Under the hood it uses S3 and they publish an API and an agent that handles all the retry / checkpoint logic for you. ~~~ takno Absolutely this. If you're in the AWS ecosystem then move away from the bare- ish metal and onto the tools they provide for doing this stuff. MongoDB in particular really doesn't seem to be relevant to the problem at all. Throw all the data into Kinesis, and then push the bits you need into Redshift the other end. If you want to keep a lot of data for ad-hoc queries but only use a subset for regular queries then consider setting up separate dense compute and dense storage Redshift clusters as appropriate. As far as pricing goes there's a hell of a discount for going reserved once you've got things set up the way you want them. Once you've got that running and the immediate fires are out you may want to look at Spark to pre-compute some of the reports (you can still push the computed data into Redshift tables to save changing the reporting too much), although I don't think spark as a service isn't really there in AWS right now, and running up an EMR cluster is seriously going to cost you. Bigtable provides similar capabilities to Redshift in the google ecosystem, and looks okay although I wasn't blown away by it. ------ hoodoof I'd start by asking if you are solving the right problem. Does the business really need exactly this? What is their actual goal? Are they aware of the effort and resources required to get this report? ------ coryrobinson42 I would highly recommend looking into Elasticsearch. Clustering and scalability are its strong points and can help you with your quest. ------ ninjakeyboard Look at your current solution and check the run plan of your sql. If your data is indexed correctly it shouldn't be too too bad to execute queries. 1M records is about 20 ops to search for a record by key. If it's modelled in SQL, it's probably relational and normalized so you'll be joining together tables. This balloons the complexity of querying the data pretty fast. Denormalizing data simplifies the problem so see if you can get it into a K/V instead of or relational database. Not saying relational isn't a fine solution - even if you keep it in mysql, denormalizing will benefit the complexity of querying it. Once you determine if you can denormalize, you can look at sharding the data so instead of having the data in one place, you have it in many places and the key of the record determines where to store and retrieve the data. Now you have the ability to scale your data horizontally across instances to divide the problem's complexity by n where n is the number of nodes. Unfortunately the network is not reliable so you suddenly have to worry about CAP theorem and what happens when nodes become unavailable so you'll start looking at replication and consistency across nodes and need to figure out with your problem domain what you can tolerate. Eg bank accounts have different consistency requirements than social media data where a stale read isn't a big deal. Aphyr's Call Me Maybe series has reviews of many datastores in pathological conditions so read about your choice there before you go all in (assuming you do want to look at different stores.) Dynamo style DB's like riak are what I think of immediately but read around - this guy is a wizard. [https://aphyr.com/tags/Jepsen](https://aphyr.com/tags/Jepsen) AWS has a notorious network so really think about those failure scenarios. Yes it's hard and the network isn't reliable. Dynamo DBs are cool though and fit the big problems you're looking at if you want to load and query it. If you want to work with the data, the Apache Spark is worth looking at. You mention mapreduce for instance. Spark is quick. It's sort of hard because there isn't a lot of information about the problem domain so I can only shoot in the dark. If you have strong consistency needs or need to worry more about concurrent state across data that's a different problem than processing one record at a time without a need for consistent view of the data as a whole. The latter you can just process the data via workers. But think Sharding to divide the problem across nodes, Denormalization eg via Key/Value lookup for simple runtime complexity. But start where you are - look at your database and make sure it's very well tuned for the queries you're making. Do you even need to load it into a db? You could distribute the load across clusters of workers if you have some source that you can stream the data from. Then you don't have to load and then query the data. Depends heavily on your domain problem. Good luck. I can email you to discuss if you want - I just don't want to post my email here. Data isn't so much where I hand out as much as processing lots of things concurrently in distributed systems is so others may have better ideas who have gone through similar items. There are some cool papers like the Amazon Dynamo paper and I read the Google Spanner paper the other day (more globally oriented and around locking and consistency items). You can see how some of the big companies are formalizing thinking by reading some of the papers in that space. Then there are implementations you can actually use but you need to understand them a bit first I think. [http://www.allthingsdistributed.com/files/amazon-dynamo- sosp...](http://www.allthingsdistributed.com/files/amazon-dynamo-sosp2007.pdf) [http://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.co...](http://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.com/en//archive/bigtable- osdi06.pdf) ------ faizshah Note: This is based on solutions I have been researching for a current project and I haven't used these in production. Short answer: I think you're looking in the wrong direction, this problem isn't solved by a database but a full data processing system like Hadoop, Spark, Flink (my pick), or Google Cloud's dataflow. I don't know what kind of stack you guys are using (imo the solution to this problem is best made leveraging java) but I would say that you could benefit a lot from either using the hadoop ecosystem or using google cloud's ecosystem. Since you say that you are not experienced with that volume of data, I recommend you go with google cloud's ecosystem specifically look at google dataflow which supports autoscaling. Long answer: To answer your question more directly, you have a bunch of data arriving that needs to be processed and stored every X minutes and needs to be available to be interactively analyzed or processed later in a report. This is a common task and is exactly why the hadoop ecosystem is so big right now. The 'easy' way to solve this problem is by using google dataflow which is a stream processing abstraction over the google cloud that will let you set your X minute window (or more complex windowing) and automatically scale your compute servers (and pay only for what you use, not what you reserve). For interactive queries they offer google bigquery, a robust SQL based column database that lets you query your data in seconds and only charges you based on the columns you queried (if your data set is 1TB but the columns used in your query are only some short strings they might only charge you for querying 5GB). As a replacement for your mysql problems they also offer managed mysql instances and their own google bigtable which has many other useful features. Did I mention these services are integrated into an interactive ipython notebook style interface called Datalab and fully integrated with your dataflow code? This is all might get a little expensive though (in terms of your cloud bill), the other solution is to do some harder work involving the hadoop ecosystem. The problem of processing data every X minutes is called windowing in stream processing. Your problems are solved by using Apache Flink, a relatively easy and fast stream processing system that makes it easy to set up clusters as you scale your data processing. Flink will help you with your report generation and make it easy to handle processing this streaming data in a fast, robust, and fault tolerant (that's a lot of buzz words) fashion. Please take a look at the flink programming guide or the data-artisans training sessions on this topic. Note that the problem of doing SQL queries using flink is not solved (yet) this feature is planned to be released this year. However, flink will solve all your data processing problems in terms of the cross table reports and preprocessing for storage in a relational database or distributed filesystem. For storing this data and making it available you need to use something fast but just as robust as mysql, the 'correct' solution at this time if you are not using all the columns of your table is using a columnar solution. From googles cloud you have bigquery, from the open source ecosystem you have drill, kudu, parquet, impala and many many more. You can also try using postgres or rethinkdb for a full relational solution or HDFS/QFS + ignite + flink from the hadoop ecosystem. For the problem of interactively working with your data, try using Apache Zeppelin (free, scala required I think) or Databricks (paid but with lots of features, spark only i think). Or take the results of your query from flink or similar and interactively analyze those using jupyter/ipython(the solution I use). The short answer is, dust off your old java textbooks. If you don't have a java dev on your team and aren't planning on hiring one, the google dataflow solution is way easier and cheaper in terms of engineering. If you help I do need an internship ;) If you want to look at all the possible solutions from the hadoop ecosystem look at: [https://hadoopecosystemtable.github.io/](https://hadoopecosystemtable.github.io/) For google cloud ecosystem it's all there on their website. Happy coding! Oops, it seems I left out ingestion, I would use kafka or spring reactor. P.S The flink mailing list is very friendly, try asking this question there.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Show HN: I built an app to help you split the tab - radihuq https://split.mrhuq.com ====== radihuq Currently it only supports splitting the expenses equally among all members of the group. I recently went on a trip to New York with some friends and we all made miscellaneous group expenses. When we came back we used this app to figure out how much we owed each other. If you're interested you can find the source code here: [https://github.com/radihuq/split-the-tab](https://github.com/radihuq/split- the-tab) ------ stephenr ... I don’t get it. If it’s only splitting equally how is this easier than a calculator app that’s already installed on every persons phone? Or, you know, having some basic ability to do simple math in your head or on a piece of paper? ~~~ radihuq Yeah you're right that in my personal example using this app was overkill. The use case I actually had in mind while developing this was continuously using this to track expenses while on the trip - that way you don't need to pull together all the receipts & verify expenses at the end of the trip ~~~ davidajackson Have you heard of YSplit? [https://techcrunch.com/2019/03/13/ysplit-wants-to- make-it-so...](https://techcrunch.com/2019/03/13/ysplit-wants-to-make-it-so- you-never-owe-your-friends-money-again/) I think it's a newer YC company, might be interesting for you to take a look at to see how yours is different/similar ~~~ radihuq I haven't heard of them - looks like they're a wallet that automatically conducts pre-authorized transactions. Pretty cool. Biggest limitation I see is that they only support splitting transactions from select vendors. I think it would be cool if they allowed you to split anything - but I guess the problem is coming up with a viable business model. If you use something like Stripe to facilitate transactions, the added fee can be pretty deterring to potential users. I'm not sure what would be the best business model for an idea like this, apart from maybe a subscription more & betting on users not actively using the product? ~~~ davidajackson Hmm. Doesn't Venmo do an instant (about 2%), or 2-3 days (0%) bank transfer fee business model? Something similar might work for them. I don't know how Venmo does the free bank transfers though, that could be anything from partnerships to VC money to tech.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Acrobatic thieves avoid cameras, motion sensors, alarms in daring heist - pinstriped_dude http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/03/acrobatic_thieves_hit_nj_best.html ====== pinstriped_dude via Schneier on Security blog - [http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/03/acrobatic_thie...](http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/03/acrobatic_thiev.html)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Shellshock protection enabled for all customers - jgrahamc https://blog.cloudflare.com/shellshock-protection-enabled-for-all-customers/ ====== milankragujevic Everything was pointing towards free TLS for everyone, but thank you. I won't be using this with Windows Server. ~~~ jgrahamc This is an extra thing, not the big announcement that we've been talking about. That comes Monday (California time)... not long now. ~~~ milankragujevic Well, great! I sometimes forget timezones. It's already Monday here.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Where to Find Freelance Work with Decent pay $25+ - gremlinsinc I'm a junior dev -- PHP/Laravel or Ruby on RAils. I'm desperate for a position as I just moved to Eagle Mountain, UT and cost of living is a little high here, and I'm having trouble finding a position and getting hired right now.<p>I'm used to taking freelance jobs at 10-15/hour, but that's just not what I'm worth, or worth my time anymore. I know I can secure $25+ - I'm aiming for a job@$55-75000/year.<p>I know Ruby, PHP, JS, Python, and am comfortable with Laravel, Wordpress, CakePHP, Symfony, ExpressJS, Django, and Rails.<p>I don't have much testing experience though, but sure I could pick it up.. Looking for something remote or local to Salt Lake / Provo UT areas.<p>resume : http://resume.patrickcurl.com ====== andymoe You don't need the HTML here. Just put in double spaces instead... good luck on your hunt. I'd stay away from odesk and try to build up your personal relationships with folks. Find some local meetups if possible... even if you have to drive to a larger city. Edit: Go re-read your resume. The opening paragraph is too long. Focus on things you have accomplished. You are too self depreciating... remove the stuff about IRC and how you had to break your bad habits. You are not selling yourself well. More self confidence in your presentation of yourself will go a long way. ~~~ gremlinsinc Thanks. I'll definitely do that. I appreciate the tips. Its hard going from one-man show to bigger company + team environment, and I do lack the confidence--my highest paid job was 35k. I'm about to break out of poverty essentially thanks to learning to code, but I just need my first big break. ------ gremlinsinc As an aside -- it seems like a majority of jobs on Odesk and Freelancer.com all seem very low like 10-15/hour, some even way lower aimed obviously at India/China and countries w/ lower wages for higher jobs.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The new science of cute - pmcpinto https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/19/kumamon-the-new-science-of-cute ====== doctorstupid Japan is an hierarchical society in which the pressures flowing from the top can build to unbearable levels near the bottom. The outlook for many is quite bleak, with an unthinkably small possibility of escape from one’s allotted role. Many live in conditions that may be best described as human storage. Cute things offer an escape into a fantasy world devoid of life’s powerlessness in a manner compatible with consumerism. The aggressive and masculine traits valued near the top are sometimes too confrontational for most, resulting in a proliferation of cute, comforting and non-aggressive symbols throughout society. Even police boxes have cute mascots to soften the intimidation of their presence. ------ agentgt I vaguely remember reading somewhere how domestication brings about cuteness in animals. When animals are breed to be less aggressive they look more like babies. We are not even sure if humans are naturally selecting the traits (as baby like features seem less aggressive) or that just inherently happens when aggression is removed (ie lower testosterone would cause less maturity). I believe the study on domesticating foxes showed this. As they removed aggressive foxes from the gene pool the left overs were unbelievable "cute" with soft fur, round eyes, etc. Seriously a domesticated fox is a pretty animal. Of course I believe there is an exception to this of the house hold cat. Supposedly cats are technically not domesticated (I'll find link on this shortly but yes this mainly a joke as domestication is likely a multi-faceted continuum). ~~~ saint_fiasco Domestication brings about neoteny. Adult domesticated animals maintain appearance and behaviors that wild animals only have when they are young. Young mammals are very cute to us, possibly because we are mammals too and inherit our cute-sense from a common mammal ancestor. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny#In_domestic_animals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny#In_domestic_animals) ~~~ theophrastus There is even an old theory that modern day humans are neotenous products of a proto-ape-man. A list usually follows of those characteristics that humans share with infant modern apes: less hair, larger head to body ratio, shorter arms, less muzzle, etc. Then 'futurists' grab hold of that and imagine current human babies as our adult future; is that how the bug-eyed hairless 'gray alien'[1] arises, or the 2001 "star child"? [1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_alien](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_alien) ~~~ amyjess I have to wonder if this is partially responsible for the "Asians are smarter than everyone else" stereotype, given that Asians have more neotenous features than other races on average. ------ vanderZwan > _In a study at the University of Michigan in 2012, visual information expert > Sookyung Cho asked subjects “to design a cute rectangle by adjusting the > size, proportion, roundness, rotation, and color of the figure”. What she > found supported the idea that “smallness, roundness, tiltedness, and > lightness of color can serve as determinants of perceived cuteness in > artifact design”. It mattered, she found, whether the person designing the > rectangle was in the USA or South Korea. Cuteness is nothing if not > culturally specific, and that itself has become a rich focus of inquiry._ > [...] > _Teddy bears exist because the night is dark and long and at some point your > parents have to go to bed and leave you. There is real comfort in cuteness._ > _“Filling in an emotional need is exactly where kawaii plays a significant > role,” writes Christine R Yano, a professor of anthropology at the > University of Hawaii at Manoa and the author of Pink Globalization: Hello > Kitty’s trek across the Pacific. “Even in America, journalist Nicholas > Kristof has written of an ‘empathy gap’ in today’s society,” states Yano. > “He points to the place of objects that may be considered promoters of > ‘happiness’, ‘solace’, ‘comfort’. When a society needs to heal, it seeks > comfort in the familiar. And often the familiar may reside in ‘cute’. > Witness the use of teddy bears as sources of comfort for firefighters in the > wake of NYC’s 9-11. So I see kawaii things as holding the potential as > empathy generators.”_ I wonder how these two points tie in to the modern obsession with cats. They seem to fill a real need people have, but speaking as someone who is unaffected by cat-cuteness (which is weird because I generally am very susceptable to cute things) and who is treated as a freak of nature by many, I think there's also a certain aspect of trying to conform to societal expectations. PS: The Guardian aritcle is a reprint (republish? reshare?) of an article at Mosaic[0], which features a lot more pictures. [0] [http://mosaicscience.com/story/cuteness-japan- kawaii](http://mosaicscience.com/story/cuteness-japan-kawaii) ~~~ douche Cats are furry, murderous assholes [http://theoatmeal.com/comics/cats_actually_kill](http://theoatmeal.com/comics/cats_actually_kill) [http://www.kittycams.uga.edu/index.html](http://www.kittycams.uga.edu/index.html) ~~~ Kristine1975 That's what makes them cute, though. ~~~ ZenoArrow Eh? IMO it's their appearance and style that makes them cute, not their violent tendencies! I never hear two cats scrapping in an alleyway and think 'how cute!'. ~~~ bitwize On the contrary, many of cats' predator characteristics make them cute -- for example, their large, forward-facing eyes, the way they pounce on and bat at things (the little ass wiggle they do just before striking is particularly adorable), their little fangs (giving a character cat fangs is an anime way of conveying "mischievous cuteness"), etc. They are also fairly intelligent. Intelligence can be cute, and the cuteness of intelligence is _enduring_. Rabbits are cute to look at, but make for boring pets; cats and dogs can fascinate and charm us for years and quickly become considered friends and the near-equals of humans. And don't tell me that a cat who's figured out how to operate doorknobs or lightswitches isn't adorable. A lot of this has to do with the fact that we are also predators and these characteristics remind us of ourselves (in particular, our young). ~~~ ZenoArrow > "their large, forward-facing eyes" Appearance. > "the way they pounce on and bat at things" Style. > "their little fangs" IMO, fangs aren't exactly a cute feature. Cats aren't cute all the time. This isn't a cute image of a cat IMO, for example... [http://baddogneedsrottenhome.com/images/emails/55c8ce1c28a9b...](http://baddogneedsrottenhome.com/images/emails/55c8ce1c28a9b.jpg) > "They are also fairly intelligent. Intelligence can be cute, and the > cuteness of intelligence is enduring. Rabbits are cute to look at, but make > for boring pets; cats and dogs can fascinate and charm us for years and > quickly become considered friends and the near-equals of humans. And don't > tell me that a cat who's figured out how to operate doorknobs or > lightswitches isn't adorable." Again, style. It's possible to see a cat's playfulness and intelligence as separate from its roots as a predator. I don't think we actively have 'killer' in mind when we see a cat look cute or do something cute. ~~~ amyjess Cats' playing is straight-up hunting practice. If you pay attention to a kitty playing with something, you can tell that they're practicing how to stalk, hunt, kill, and eviscerate their prey. And it's _adorable_. I used to tell my parents' kitty "You're such a cute widdwe pwedator, yes you are!". Sometimes while she was playing, other times after watching her hunt and kill a lizard in the backyard. There wasn't much difference between her behavior between those times. ~~~ ZenoArrow The point I'm making is that the cuteness is not determined by their desire to kill, it's their appearance and style that makes them cute. If being a predator was a deciding factor in making them cute, then other predators would automatically be cute too. Perhaps you think all animals are cute, but I don't think of sharks, snakes, crocodiles, etc... as cute. In other words, IMO it's not what they do that makes an animal cute, it's the way that they do it (and/or their appearance). ------ jhbadger "He is almost regarded as a living entity, a kind of fun ursine household god (it is perhaps significant that the very first licensed Kumamon product was a Buddhist shrine emblazoned with his face)." Things like this fascinate me about Japan. How is this understood? Is it a "South Park" style sacrilegious parody, or do Japanese Buddhists actually find this totally acceptable? ~~~ po I am by no means an expert, but after living here for a while I have had to adjust my conception of what sacrelegious means. I think my understanding of it (after growing up in the US and primarily being exposed to christian and jewish customs) was 'pious sincerity' or 'seriousness'. In Japan, religious practice is not as _serious_ as I was used to, even if many people are very serious about observing. There's not as much value placed in physical artifacts. Historic buildings get razed (pour one out for the Hotel Okura), earthquakes destroy cities… people move on. The culture needs to be respected and honored but new artifacts will always arise which honor that line of culture. You respect your ancestors by however you show respect.. bowing, keeeling, building a shrine out of discarded PS2's or whatever. If it is heartfelt, then how you do it mostly reflects on you. So associating a mascot (which is a totally accepted cultural tool) with a religious artifact isn't considered bad because there is no negative association with it. People love kumamon! Anyway, that's my view on it. I am sure I have a lot to learn still. As an aside: Even the police like to get in on the cute. Note the mascot at the bottom of the tokyo police website. Pepo-kun is all over Tokyo to make the police more approachable. He's named after the sound that police cars make: "peee-poh-peee-poh" [http://www.keishicho.metro.tokyo.jp/multilingual/english/ind...](http://www.keishicho.metro.tokyo.jp/multilingual/english/index.html) ~~~ kens To add to your comment on the transience of historical buildings, the Ise Jingu shrine gets torn down and rebuilt every 20 years, and this has been happening for 1300 years! [http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/this-japanese- shrin...](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/this-japanese-shrine-has- been-torn-down-and-rebuilt-every-20-years-for-the-past-millennium-575558/) Also, according to Freakonomics, Japanese houses are "disposable", commonly torn down and rebuilt. [http://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-are-japanese- homes-dispo...](http://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-are-japanese-homes- disposable-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast-3/) ------ dschiptsov Cuteness is a look of a healthy (lack of abnormalities) child, and youth in general. Beauty is youth + health (average face = lack of deformities) for all species - good genes, just reached reproductive age (with all necessary markers). Sexual attractiveness is a bit more complicated - species specific markers of youth, health, good genes (parasite resistance, foraging, etc) and social status. Nothing to see here. Humans aren't descendants of gods, they are still mere animals. ~~~ drpgq Sexual dimorphism is also important for sexual attractiveness. ------ kevinSuttle I wrote about this a few years ago, with the goal to answer the question of "what is cute, really?" [http://uxmag.com/articles/beyond- emotion](http://uxmag.com/articles/beyond-emotion) ------ homero I wonder if zenbo flopped [https://zenbo.asus.com](https://zenbo.asus.com) ~~~ dexwiz Why do manufacturers need to put big goofy eyes on robots? I am perfectly fine with an astro-mech style robot that is obviously a robot. ~~~ vanderZwan Well you're not wrong for liking it, but you also are (presumably) a techie of some form, be that programming, electronics or whatever. That implies a pretty strong aesthetic bias that does not represent the average person. ------ return0 Isn't this another symptom of infantilization of culture? Similarly to how the most successful movies are about wizards and magical rings. ~~~ Chris2048 infantilization of culture? Why are wizards and fantasy not allowed for adults? ~~~ zdkl "All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach." Replace propaganda with marketing, PR, journalism...	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Surprised? - alexknight http://zerodistraction.com/notes/surprised ====== cllns You've got some weird line-wrapping going on. (formatted to appear as it does for me) > We now live in a world where it is the norm for an incredibly robust and > full feat > ured piece of software to exist in the palm of our hands, all > whilst costing us less > than a cup of coffee and a pastry. The long term > financial viability of the App Sto > re for many developers has probably > been discussed ad nauseam, however I do w > ant to resurface the discussion > briefly. Unless you happen to be one of the luckil ~~~ alexknight Renders fine for me on both my Mac (in Safari) and on my iPhone 5. I have auto-hyphenation, but the hyphenation should render properly and not break-up sentences badly. What browser are you using?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Are iPhones and Blackberries becoming extensions of our thinking selves? - liuhenry http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/12/out-of-our-brains/?hp ====== elblanco No, but my Android phone is. In all seriousness, having migrated from a BB to a more modern phone architecture (iPhone or Android, take your pick), I feel like it is much more an extension of self than my BB ever was. Even if I have no particular need to use it, I can feel my heart palpitating if my battery starts to get low. I've been wondering about this recently...why does my current phone feel so much more part of "me" than my BB ever did? I think it's because I feel like my computer is a part of me and my Android phone feels like a powerful enough device (and is customizable enough) that I can make it reflect what I want to do. I could never _quite_ get there with my BB, and the performance was never quite up to snuff enough to use it for quick internet activities. ------ Qz My pet theory is that the mind has never been in the brain, in the same way that computers are only as useful as the software they run, software which originates outside the computer. Language itself is the home of sentience, and people are just processors. Minds are an illusion. ------ i386 Interesting - Charles Stross covered the "machines as an extension of your mind" idea in Accelerando. ~~~ danilocampos Thought of the same thing. I read Accelerando after the iPhone had been part of my daily life for about three years. It's absolutely an early flavor of the book's idea of a "metacortex." You never need to say "I wonder..." when something is in doubt. You just look it up. If you're bored, you can keep your brain awash in new data. If you need to communicate with others through virtually any digital medium, it's a tap or two away. ------ gte910h Taking a class from this guy:[http://www.cc.gatech.edu/gvu/people/official/thad.starner/wh...](http://www.cc.gatech.edu/gvu/people/official/thad.starner/while) at Georgia Tech a decade ago made it sound like it was quite definitely part of him by that part. (Look at the picture to see what "it" is). Pretty interesting professor, although he'd occasionally just stop mid- sentence to do something on his eyepiece. We joked he was garbage collecting...	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Presentation: Redis, The Hacker's Database - zeynel1 http://amix.dk/blog/post/19593#Presentation-Redis-The-Hackers-Database ====== btipling I really am liking Redis, and they've expanded beyond just snapshots for persistent storage. You can now append data, and there a different options for both when you snapshot or append (a time, for each set, etc). ------ smokestack The video is up on GoogleTechTalks: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BS3UVSLX-I> ------ akavlie I just started using MongoDB in a Python project; it shares a lot of the advantages (vs. SQL) mentioned in this presentation -- there's a natural mapping between the BSON in MongoDB and Python dicts. What are the pros & cons of Redis compared to MongoDB? ~~~ necubi The cool thing about redis is that it supports a bunch of different data structures: (ordered) sets, arrays, hashes, queues and more. There are a lot of db operations that are very natural with such support that are harder to force into the basic key/value paradigm exported by MongoDB. Also, redis is really simple to use which makes it useful for many cases where a full database might otherwise be overkill. For example, I've used it for storing results from experiments for further analysis. It's easier than a flat-file and much more performant. ------ dizz Another excellent redis preso - <http://simonwillison.net/static/2010/redis- tutorial/> ------ tedjdziuba Shenanigans. The author says that MySQL/Tokyo Tyrant don't work because of "death by I/O". Right, well, if your data set fits in memory, which I assume it does because you're relying on Redis, and the Redis VM feature is ghastly, then your problem isn't with "I/O", it's with MySQL not doing the right thing. Buy some SSD drives, try out Postgres, but if you bet your business on something like Redis, you deserve whatever you get. ~~~ SwellJoe I'm always suspicious when I see something that is known to be a limitation of a tool is held up as the reason it's better than all other tools, including those that don't have that same limitation. And, as I understand it, redis is specifically designed to work with data that fits in memory, which is definitely a limitation that will prevent its use in a lot of places. It strikes me that redis has some cool concepts...but you can't just wave your arms around and say that because redis is a memory-based database it solves I/O and performance problems of databases that normally operate in larger than memory deployments. If redis falls apart when memory can't contain the entire data set, that's a limitation, not a feature. Since I know Tokyo Tyrant (and its successor or sibling or whatever, Kyoto Tycoon) are blisteringly fast in memory only workloads using key-value datasets, I'm highly suspicious of claims that redis is naturally and obviously faster (or something...I can't tell if this is a claim of speed, or architectural superiority because redis somehow solves I/O in a different way, I can't tell from the slides what is claimed, really). Personally, I'd like to see some more meat to the argument that redis is superior, or at least some clarity about _when_ and _why_ redis is superior. It's obviously not going to replace MySQL for my CMS or OpenLDAP for my directory services, but it might have a place in other types of deployments. I couldn't figure out what Plurk is, so I'm not sure I understand what it was developed for. (I'm old, though...Plurks purpose might be obvious to someone not afflicted with my particular malady.) ~~~ liuliu I don't see another obvious advantage of Redis over Tokyo Cabinet other than the nicer complex data structure support. I use Redis for several projects and for me it serves well. Particularly, I know the limit of Redis and can predict how much memory it will eventually eat up with respect to the growth of site. Besides, Redis has a small code base that I can tinker around (It is c!) which would be nearly impossible for me to tinker around MySQL with confidence. Tokyo Cabinet has a nice code base too, and I liked it a lot but the limitation is: Tokyo Cabinet provides either a simple key-value db (b-tree/hashtable) or a full flee of table-like db. The former one is too simple to actual usage and the latter one is too complex (from my point of view, it is just SQL without parser, I even programmed a SQL parser on top of its table db). For my usage, a document-based db (MongoDB) or Redis which has sorted set/set data structure is enough and since MongoDB is complex in terms of code base too, Redis becomes my first choice. Although Redis is critiqued for its VM implementation, I found that it is good enough for my specific usage: I have around 2 million or so keys and the workset is about 25k keys average. Yes, Redis is not a universal solution to everything, and I am a little worried about its current proposal of disk-based system (to me, Tokyo Cabinet's disk op implementation is more mature and antirez should do more analysis on the comparison to Tokyo Cabinet and Berkeley DB since these two are only known k-v based disk DBs that tested in battle field).	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Feathur: Open source VPS control panel (Free for personal use) - amjd http://feathur.com/ ====== andridk License seems very restrictive: [https://github.com/BlueVM/Feathur/blob/develop/License.v1.tx...](https://github.com/BlueVM/Feathur/blob/develop/License.v1.txt) ------ eww it doesn't respect four user's freedoms	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Software and burnout, how to get gratification? - anon1253 This is a bit of a confession I guess: I've never worked on software that actually got used. I'm 29, and I'm seriously considering a career switch. Since I was 12 I've been glued to various screens. Saw the advent of the internet, the rise of smartphones, and not one but two AI booms. In 2010 I finished my undergraduate in Artificial Intelligence, and went into the big world (with a sidestep PhD in Epidemiology/Genetics that I never finished). But here's the thing, in all those years of programming (PHP, Javascript, Java, R, Clojure(Script)...roughly in that order) I've never made something that had actual users. I started off with various websites, which were fun, but not very profitable. Went on to do more "complex" things. A startup on web annotations that got nowhere, a system for preference based group formation (think meetings, parties, etc). Software that does Bayesian statistics for randomized controlled trials, web applications that do Natural Language Processing and Machine Learning on PDFs of academic literature. And now a vast tool that does semantic search and analytics on medical publications. The catch: no one uses them. And it's silly, you can follow all the best practices, do everything right, and still it's utterly useless. The past few months I've been wondering: is it really worth it? Where's the fun in all these high-brow advanced pieces of software. I know, somewhere, that it's about validation, finding a niche, etc. But really, where are the people who enjoy what I make? It would be nice for a change to find those. And, I've gotten increasingly cynical about it: most software is really just about nothing. Unit tests, e2e tests, type safety, distributed computing, etc, I've gotten the feeling that it's all about nothing. I just wonder what it's like to work on something with actual users sometime. Maybe I just suck at my job, time for a career switch? ====== shoo > Went on to do more "complex" things Have you considered moving in the other direction? There's lots of work -- and value -- in bog-standard software with no mathematical/statistical/computational cleverness. Occasionally you can see an opportunity to fruitfully apply a mildly clever quantitative technique and see it actually get used -- but >95% of the time there's usually necessary grunt work to do. How about trying contract work on enterprise software projects? E.g. pick a huge boring-sounding enterprise that has some weird legacy* software systems built for internal use. If you find the right one, they will have (1) users who use the system every day to do their job, and (2) lashings of technical debt, and they may be quite excited to have anyone on board to push forward efforts in "unit testing" or "continuous integration" or "implementing exception handling correctly". inspiration: [https://www.butternotes.com/blog/catfish- programmers](https://www.butternotes.com/blog/catfish-programmers) [http://edw519.posthaven.com/willie-sutton-would-be-an- enterp...](http://edw519.posthaven.com/willie-sutton-would-be-an-enterprise- programmer) * legacy doesn't necessarily mean old -- maybe the system uses some trendy new tech stack, but no one wrote any tests, and the first wave of contractors already left ------ ztratar I find it ironic that you blame software when really it is your selection of projects & companies, and you say this out loud. Your software isn't being used. That sucks. The feeling must suck. A car maker who builds something for 0 drivers will be sad. A dentist with 0 clients will be sad. Etc, etc. Go to a big company that has users, and see what that does! Let's say Series C/D+ -- $100m+ raised. If you want more users, focus on consumer companies. If you care more about the business making great profits, focus on B2B. ~~~ anon1253 That's fair. You kinda get stuck in a certain "mode" though. You start to self-identify with the things you do "I make data science tools for medical informatics". And it's sort of blinding, in a sense. If I enumerate my skills on a CV, the types of companies that would identify with them are in the same space. Doing something else, say games, apps, whatever it is that people "enjoy" interacting with: I'd need to start at the bottom again. No longer senior engineer/team lead ... but rather that young newb. That's frightening too. ~~~ itamarst You don't need to start from scratch in terms of pay or seniority. It's quite possible to get senior positions in different tech stacks than the one you know best. The first few months on the job will be stressful, but that will pass. ------ ajeet_dhaliwal I've felt like this in the past and it's a tragedy of modern times that so many smart, hardworking people feel this way, not just about software but their careers in general. I agree that having no users has caused some or even most of your anguish and that needs to be fixed but I disagree that joining a large company with customers will necessarily make you that much happier in the long run. In the short-term it may help and perhaps it's something you should try but down the road you'll start to feel like an inconsequential small cog in a machine and possibly end up back at this state of mind again. ------ ix-hispana If you want tickets to fix, join a digital agency. Ask what kind of clients they nurture. Media is good. You want to work making NBC apps for Android. Things like that. You will reach millions. Such a change might bring a different type of stress. The feeling that you're helping lobotomize a generation with mindless entertainment instead of helping cure cancer. Also, the tickets.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Designing For Jedi - angusgr http://theferrett.livejournal.com/1534590.html ====== jacoblyles Let's make a deal, you guys refrain from pop-psychoanalyzing those of us with libertarian leanings and I won't submit right-wing essays that diagnose socialists with megalomania and delusions of grandeur. Impugning your opponent's motivations is the lowest form of rhetoric. ~~~ angusgr It seems the post has wounded your ego, and I guess that's fair enough given it makes such sweeping generalisations (and "pop-psychoanalysis", as it were.) However, I'd be really interested to hear your comments on some of the other points he makes, or the other threads of his argument (particularly, comparisons to history.) (FWIW, I didn't submit the article because I whole-heartedly agree with it, I just thought it was quite well-written and interesting, and I thought it might generate some enlightening responses.) ~~~ jacoblyles It hasn't wounded my ego, rather I find the article insulting. It caricatures people of my political beliefs as having nasty motivations and abundant personal failings. It reads like an op-ed in a high school Marxist newsletter and is about as balanced. I am fine with reading political articles on Hacker News but I would hope they have a little more respect for their audience. Any Capitalist would make the rejoinder that society sucked so much in the Victorian era because society was so much poorer in aggregate. You could tax the rich at 90% and it wouldn't have stretched very far. In the long run, the wages of labor are determined by labor productivity. Laws, unions, regulations, and other beloved institutions of the left can tinker with that ever so slightly at the margin but not by much. It is only through the accumulation of capital goods and the advancement of technology that a middle class arose. You can legislate all you want before that happens and you aren't going to do a ton of good. You can declare free unicorns for everyone but if you ain't got no unicorns then you'll leave people disappointed. And after a capital stock is accumulated, labor becomes more productive, wages increase and life gets better of course ideologues of all stripes will claim credit for it. ~~~ jbooth Well, in the current political climate? Libertarians are a self-caricature. Not you personally, and sorry, but Carl Paladino's got signs up all over New York state that say "I'm mad too, Carl!". That's literally the guy's slogan, major party candidate for Governor of a large and important state, and his platform is a bunch of incoherent nonsense. And 99% of self-described libertarians are lining up behind these wackos all over the country. Sorry that the crazies are ruining your rep.. but if you don't want it to happen, don't enable the crazies. ~~~ jacoblyles Why should I take credit for people I don't agree with? Do you think it fair if I lump you together with people you don't like because they are in roughly the same part of the political spectrum as yourself? Politics makes people rude and irrational. ~~~ jbooth If you don't agree with them (and I'm using the royal "you" here), then why are libertarians lining up across the country to support these loonies? Maybe you're ok, but libertarians in general? Part and parcel of the tea party this year. ~~~ jacoblyles To the extent that the libertarian voting bloc goes Republican this year, it will probably have something to do with the $1.4 trillion deficit. During the Bush years, people that have roughly libertarian values went Democrat (you can look up old Cato articles for details) so it is not as if they are beholden to any one party. Unfortunately our system forces people to choose between the lesser of two evils and right now many people are blanching at the deficit. ------ 8ren The "Jedi" idea is related to John Rawls "original position": [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Theory_of_Justice#The_.22orig...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Theory_of_Justice#The_.22original_position.22) As for laissez faire, I think every government has already concluded that it doesn't work very well. One might think that with modern labour-saving technology (and the consequential age of leisure) that this might change. One theoretical counter- argument is that people seem to love to have "inferiors" - it makes them feel better about themselves - which probably comes from our innate sense of pecking order/dominance hierarchy etc. Being a part of human nature, changing that is a hard one. Evidence in support of this is how some US citizens treat illegal immigrant workers who don't enjoy the protection of labour laws etc - it is laissez faire in action, right now. Another example is how US corporations treat labour in developing countries (such as China), and detainees from other countries. Whoa, that's getting political. OTOH, we must remember that trade - like language, law and religion - are created spontaneously by human communities. Our current society didn't just create it; it appears to be innate. However, the specific ideas of trade and civic structures that we have today are informed by centuries of experience and thought, and constitute a tremendous cultural refinement of the innate concept of trade. Unlike the foregoing, it seems that civilization is not quite innate in humans - we have to work at it. ------ trickjarrett It's odd to know Ferrett from the Magic community and then see his link on the tech related site. While very well written and an enjoyable read, my problem with his opinion and the people who think Libertarians = Anarcho-capitalists is that they take it to the complete extreme. Democrats aren't Socialists, etc. My #1 desire with Libertarianism is for a smaller government, not a destroyed government. ~~~ moultano I'm tired of the crazy libertarians spoiling it for the rest of us. I would like to have something to call myself that includes removing corn subsidies and capping medicare, but also retaining fiat currency and instituting a carbon tax. ~~~ jbooth I'd suggest "Democrat" :) We might not agree with libertarians 100% of the time, but we're not lunatics, we're with you on social issues, not actually that far economically, and we approach problems with the intention of solving/ameliorating them, rather than using them as social dog whistles. It beats hearing rhetoric about small gov't and then getting Medicare Part D (absolute budget disaster - and obamacare reduces the projected medicare deficit, for those keeping score at home) ~~~ moultano I generally vote democrat in national elections, and whoever seems most competent in local elections. The democrats at the moment seem to have a monopoly on "believing in science." So I don't really have much of a choice. ------ philwelch Reading the Hacker News guidelines, it seems terribly odd that "please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them" is only suggested for _comments_ , because many submissions have this problem as well. (And no, "life was miserable in the era of the robber barons, therefore libertarianism is wrong" isn't anything genuinely new to say, nor is "libertarians secretly imagine themselves to be the robber barons instead of the tenement-dwelling wage slaves".) ~~~ jbooth It's election season, and as far as propagandizing, the republicans* have probably had an edge in it on HN. Not that I'm suggesting anything organized on anyone's part, it's just topical right now. It'll drift off the front page soon enough, and all will settle down after Tuesday. *during the fall of even numbered years, you're either a D or an R unless you actually vote third party ~~~ russellallen Even during the fall of even numbered years, I'm neither a D nor an R. That is because I am an Australian. Edit: and its Spring now, anyway. ~~~ jbooth Well, if we had a parliamentary system in the US, maybe we could have libertarians here too :) ------ pandafood Is wanting a social net because you think it will benefit you somehow more moral than not wanting one because you think it won't?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Why a house is a terrible investment (2013) - nreece http://jlcollinsnh.com/2013/05/29/why-your-house-is-a-terrible-investment/ ====== ajross This is awful analysis. Almost every one of the bullet points is just wrong, or at least terribly spun. I mean, one of them argues that homes are "heavily taxed" when of course they are the source of the biggest single deduction category in the whole budget, another claims with a straight face that the ability to leverage the investment via a (again, government subsidized!) loan is a _bad_ thing! Now, obviously not all investments are winners, even if they are "good" investments in principle. And there are all sorts of very good arguments about why homes _should not_ be subsidized in the way they are, and that our government has made them "too good" in a way that harms the public as a whole. But nonetheless homes in almost all of the US are absolutely good investments. They have been for going on three quarters of a century now and certainly don't show signs of stopping. ~~~ timr This is excellent analysis. Every one of the bullet points is correct, and you've picked one to debate (and misinterpreted the argument): relative to virtually every other investment you can make, homes _are_ heavily taxed. Arguing that you can (possibly) deduct some of those taxes misses the point. I don't have to pay my state and local governments annual taxes on the stocks and bonds that I own. On average, homes in the US appreciate at about the rate of inflation, and the choice to rent vs. buy is favorable in some markets, unfavorable in many others. It's nowhere near as clear-cut as the comments in this thread would lead you to believe. ~~~ sulam I recently sold and bought a house, and as far as I know I paid no taxes on it, and I am still deducting mortgage payments. I could pay off my mortgage tomorrow (it's Sunday here, so I'd have to wait for my bank to open) but my accountant tells me that's a horrible idea. ~~~ DrScump In the USA, you would face capital gains taxes if your sales basis was greater than your cost basis. ~~~ pragmatic Do I have to pay taxes on the profit I made selling my home? It depends on how long you owned and lived in the home before the sale and how much profit you made. If you owned and lived in the place for two of the five years before the sale, then up to $250,000 of profit is tax-free. If you are married and file a joint return, the tax-free amount doubles to $500,000. The law lets you "exclude" this much otherwise taxable profit from your taxable income. (If you sold for a loss, though, you can't take a deduction for that loss.) ~~~ DrScump up to $250,000 of profit is tax-free You get that exemption _once_ in a _lifetime_. (If you are married filing together, that's once for _both parties_.) If your profit isn't 6 figures, choose this option carefully. ~~~ meritt Under current law, you can take the exclusion every two years: [https://www.irs.gov/publications/p523#en_US_2017_publink1000...](https://www.irs.gov/publications/p523#en_US_2017_publink10008998) Are you referring to the over-55-once-in-a-lifetime exemption that was replaced in 1997 with the introduction of the Taxpayer Relief Act? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxpayer_Relief_Act_of_1997](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxpayer_Relief_Act_of_1997) ------ 013a I really fail to see how most of those points are relevant when you consider that a home is an investment you can, you know, live in. The alternative would be to rent indefinitely, which apparently we're ok with even though its not just a 0% return on investment, its an infinitely negative percent return on investment. Even if your house breaks even over 10 years, you still got to live in it for ten years for what is, functionally, the cost of interest + upkeep, which would often easily amount to less than rent. If I stayed where I rented last year for ten years, the total cost over ten years (assuming the rent is never increased) (rent is _always_ increased) is $132,0000. Even if my house cost that much to maintain over ten years plus interest (it won't), I'll still break even on the principal and enjoy the benefits of home ownership. That's not to say that home ownership is always the right choice for everyone in every stage of life. But to sweep a broad generality like "houses are a terrible investment"... ~~~ smnrchrds > I really fail to see how most of those points are relevant when you consider > that a home is an investment you can, you know, live in. The alternative > would be to rent indefinitely, which apparently we're ok with even though > its not just a 0% return on investment, its an infinitely negative percent > return on investment. This would only make sense if you want to live in a place indefinitely. When the economy here (Alberta, Canada) tanked due to falling oil prices, people who were renting and were laid off simply gave their 1-2 month notice to their landlord and moved to Montreal or Southern Ontario for better employment opportunities. Those who owned could not do that without taking a huge loss, selling their house for less than the price they bought it for, potentially less than the remaining mortgage obligation, potentially leading to their bankruptcy. As for renting it out? Forget about finding a tenant in that economy. And even if they did, how could they manage a property from the other side of the country? Mobility is worth more than zero. If you think the economy in the place you are living is going to be good for the rest of your life (or at least the rest of your mortgage term) and you are certain you would not want to move during this time, go ahead and buy a place. Otherwise, it makes sense to rent. ~~~ asfasgasg > potentially leading to their bankruptcy Whoa, you have to go bankrupt to stop paying a mortgage in Canada? In the US, these are (in my experience) secured, non-recourse loans. That means that the bank's final option is to take the house, but if they do that, you owe them nothing else. ~~~ DrScump the bank's final option is to take the house Sometimes not even _that_ , in states with homestead exemption protections. ~~~ asfasgasg Normally the homestead exemption would protect the homestead from creditors _other than_ the mortgage lender. Otherwise, it would be substantially impossible to induce banks to give mortgages. ------ asfasgasg I am generally sympathetic to the idea that homes are a bad investment. The fundamentals are terrible, as discussed in the article, the most important one probably being the lack of diversification. But I wonder how it meshes with the results proposed by the article "The Rate of Return of Everything." That article found that housing has only slightly underperformed stocks as an investment. Now, obviously, if you're living in your house, you're not going to get nearly the same return -- this is the _total return_ on housing, so a house you're living at could be expected to provide returns on average as listed, minus the annual value of rent. But that means its overall performance as an investment is actually better than observed appreciation. [https://www.frbsf.org/economic- research/files/wp2017-25.pdf](https://www.frbsf.org/economic- research/files/wp2017-25.pdf) ------ wl78393 "Don't worry millenials! You didn't really want a house anyway, it's a terrible idea! Keep paying those student loan payments and renting!" \-- Retired boomer with $1MM+ equity in their suburban California home purchased in 1975 for $10k. ~~~ 0x00000000 *with 1975 property tax locked in thanks to prop 13 ~~~ Overtonwindow Is that accurate? Property taxes can change ~~~ jurassic Property taxes are locked to the purchase price of the home in California because of a law called Proposition 13. It's a been major contributor to the housing crisis but is extremely popular with everyone who currently owns property. It lets owners benefit from appreciation of their property without any increase in their tax liability while newer (and often younger) buyers must pay taxes based on the current absurd home prices. ------ jpmattia No one has touched on 1\. Interest rates are at historic lows. Real interest rates have recently been negative. When this changes in the next decades, interesting things will occur. 2\. It is time for the baby boomers to leave their houses and move into smaller digs. There is a demographic shift on the horizon. 3\. The Republican tax legislation just hammered home deductions in many areas. There are interesting times ahead. ------ awat As a younger millennial I find myself far more interested in a home from a Maslow’s hierarchy perspective than an investment at this point. ~~~ Simulacra Yes! Tbh I wasn’t really all that interested in buying. I finally gave in after spending a summer working with the homeless, and reading a Priceonomics article about David Raether. I got really afraid. [https://priceonomics.com/what-its-like-to- fail/](https://priceonomics.com/what-its-like-to-fail/) ~~~ ckdarby This article didn't scare me just shined the light that people are truly not willing to sacrifice. They had a $500k nest egg and living in a 4000 sqf home. The decision could have been to sell the home, downgrade to a home half the size, cut all 'future children investments' and lived a frugal life. The best future investment that could have been made here is living within the reality of the numbers. ~~~ Simulacra Absolutely agree. He should’ve downsized and cut expenditures, but for whatever reason (maybe hubris? Pride?) he allowed things to get out of control. For me, I know that I can get a job at Home Depot and make the mortgage payments, and that’s why I stuck with something small and affordable. ------ haberman When I was house-hunting, I found it really frustrating how difficult it is to truly price out the total cost of owning a house. Many people think that renting is throwing your money away, and buying is acquiring equity. This is true as a first-order approximation, but far from the whole story. Home ownership also has ton of non-recoverable costs: - interest on your mortgage - mortgage insurance (if you have >80% LTV) - closing costs on your loan (2-5% when you buy) - property taxes - homeowners insurance - yard care / landscaping - HOA fees - home maintenance (estimated: 1%/year) - realtor fees (6% when you sell!) - excise tax (~1% when you sell, in my locale) All of these costs come before you have contributed a single dollar of equity to pay down your loan. If you rent, your rent check covers all of the above expenses. I'm still really happy to be a homeowner. I love my house and I love being able to do what I want to it. I just wish it was easier to price out the total cost of ownership prior to buying, so that rent vs. buy comparisons could be more enlightened. I certainly felt like I didn't have enough information to make a totally informed decision when I was choosing to rent vs. buy. Part of what complicates this analysis is: a lot of the financial benefit arises from the house's _appreciation_ , not your accumulated equity. But betting on home appreciation is a bit of a gamble. Home values are subject to a lot of economic and political factors that you can't control. If the mortgage interest deduction went away, or mortgage interest rates rose significantly, it could devalue houses a lot. ------ Simulacra I bought a house in 2015 (at 32) and it was the best thing I ever did. Even though I had to move away, I turned it into a rental property, and it’s earning $380 a month in profit. I’ve been using that profit to pay down the principal and add to my 401(k). My only regret is that I didn’t buy a lot sooner. ~~~ asfasgasg I bought a house in 2013 and sold it in 2016 for a total return of probably close to 50% -- not including leverage, after factoring in avoided rents and all costs. If you include the leverage, the ROI was probably >100%. What's more, the cash I invested was at the moment of my investment significant with respect to my net worth -- something like 33%. So this was a great outcome. However, that does not mean I made a _wise_ financial decision. I made a _lucky_ financial decision, which is very different. This article is about making wise decisions, and it's very hard to reason about this from results in a single investment. I just want to add that a lot of people account very poorly for their real estate profits. Whether that number is good depends on how leveraged you are and the value of the property, and many other variables, like your costs and (unknowable) future vacancy rates. (If you have a lot of leverage and the property is only worth a little, that's great! It would not be very good in a scenario where the the property is paid off and worth $2M.) ~~~ Simulacra My leverage wasn’t that bad. To close I had to spend about $4,000. No down payment. It’s an FHA 30-year fixed at 3.85%, so I bought really at the bottom of the market. I’ve got a great tenant and about to renew them for another year with no increase in the rent. The income from that has been a god send and I’m net positive on expenditures. I’ve managed to get 3 months ahead on the mortgage payments to account in case I DO have a vacancy and need time to find soenone. I just got extremely lucky. I bought out of a fear of being homeless (for whatever reason) and to secure a foudnation for myself as I grow older. It’s become much more and I’ve learned a helluva lot. ~~~ asfasgasg I'm sorry, but the numbers you're putting out there indicate that you might be a person who does not understand how to value their investment property. The typical baseline number to have is one of the expected or historical cap rate. The terms of your mortgage and down payment are almost wholly irrelevant. And leverage is often considered good in real estate investing. ------ dawhizkid For a lot of people the "investment" piece of owning their home is secondary to having a home to live in and raise their family in. Especially in the US, there are tax benefits to owning, and depending on the market owning could make more sense than renting. ~~~ imron Exactly. A house is more than an investment, it's a place to live. My sister and her family are living in their 3rd home in as many years because the owners of the places they are renting keep selling and don't renew their lease. Then it's a hectic couple of months of finding somewhere new (but close enough to the same location so kids don't have to change schools) packing up everything in to boxes, moving and unpacking everything. It's 2-3 months of hassle they would love to avoid. Not everyone is buying a house as an investment. ------ SCAQTony I own my own home and this idea being pimped to millennials that they should lease everything from car rides, music, movies, bicyles, and shelter is a fast curtain to a bad "third act." (read that as old age) John Goodman said it best while playing a loan shark in the the film "The Gambler..." Frank: You get up two and a half million dollars, any a-hole in the world knows what to do: you get a house with a 25-year roof, an indestructible [Japanese]-economy shit box, you put the rest into the system at three to five percent to pay your taxes and that’s your base, get me? That’s your fortress of Fucking solitude. That puts you, for the rest of your life, at a level of fuck you. Somebody wants you to do something, fuck you. Boss pisses you off, fuck you! — Own your house. Have a couple bucks in the bank. Don’t drink. That’s all I have to say to anybody on any social level... Did your grandfather take risks? Jim Bennett: Yes. Frank: I guarantee he did it from a position of f __k you. A wise man’s life is based around fuck you. The United States of America is based on fuck you. You have a navy? Greatest army in the history of mankind? Fuck you! Blow me. We’ll fuck it up ourselves. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdfeXqHFmPI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdfeXqHFmPI) ------ Spooky23 This logic is so specious. Renting and owning from a cash flow perspective are usually pretty close, and you need to live, so a suboptimal investment with any return is better than making a landlord money and investing the scraps into 401ks. I’m in my late 30s and missed the gogo crazy years. But everyone I know in my age cohort has had a positive, meaningful ROI in trading houses up at least once. The supposed flexibility of renting is overrated as well. No decent landlord will take less than a 1 year lease, and some premium properties will demand a premium if you refuse a 2 year lease. Getting jammed up with buying out a lease early, or getting stuck with a high rent when the market cools is another way that renting is almost always a bad deal for the tenant. This sounds like a corporate accounting analysis, not advice for people. People don’t benefit from deducting opex. ~~~ smallnamespace > The supposed flexibility of renting is overrated as well. Plus there's nothing keeping you from renting out your property and then living somewhere else. You lose some of the nicer deductions and time spent being a landlord, and that certainly hurts ROI, but it's definitely not the case that you must live in what you own. ------ SQL2219 There was a flyer on my door yesterday. We pay cash for your home, close in 3 days. Avoid realtor fees. There is only one problem, I have to live somewhere. I'm not huge fan of being a homeowner, but if I decided to rent, my rent would be almost twice what my mortgage is. ------ paxys The author makes a few good points, but IMO most others are negated by the two he conveniently skips: 1\. Your house is usually generating income (for a rental property) or offsetting the rent you would otherwise have to pay. Saying "you have to pay a lot of taxes" doesn't mean much unless you compare the numbers. 2\. He mentions that property value is tied to a specific geographical area (and that's a bad thing), but then contradicts himself by calculating appreciation based on the _national_ average. If you live in a fast-growing city then it's pretty certain that you're going to make more than inflation. ~~~ shanghaiaway You're assuming that housing prices always increase. If they decrease, the property is not generating income but losses even if you rent it out. ~~~ AstralStorm That is equivalent to any investment. The difference is that the property still generates income if not capital total gain. A depreciated stock generates no dividend. Moreover there is a floor on a value of a home unless you let it completely unmaintained or it gets bombed in a war. There is no floor on stocks. There is such a floor on some material futures. (Though probably lower.) ------ bigcostooge Houses do pay dividends. You have to live somewhere, and you get to live in your house for free (in the analogy where it’s discussed as an investment.) The alternative is much worse in many markets. ------ abootstrapper This is such a line of bullshit they’re feeding the millennials. They want you to work without benefits in the “gig economy” and rent forever. Don’t fall for it. ------ tomasien This makes great points that shouldn't be ignored. But here's the reality: most people don't invest in anything but do pay rent. If you just shift that rent into a mortgage + repairs, at least you're investing in something that will slightly under-perform inflation (maybe). It's lower risk / higher return when you think of it that way. (I do not own a house nor do I plan to own one, however) ------ Ancalagon I actually agree with a lot of the points made here. Still terrible advice. Youre always gonna need somewhere to live. Guess whats a better bet to invest in than an apartment? A house. If you buy though, check all your bases. Whats appreciation looked like for the last 10 years in this neighborhood? How are the schools? Hows the job market for professionals? etc. ------ pzone Reasons why your house is a good investment: \- Massive tax subsidies provided by the government. Seriously apalling if you think about it hard enough, but since they're available, you should try to take advantage of them. That list is sufficient. ------ bartart Homes are a bad investment except that we all need somewhere to live. Even if you're renting many of the costs and risks the article mentions are borne by the landlord and then passed on to you. ------ hsnewman This is totally a biased article against home ownership. Not one positive toward home ownership...I can't believe the author would be so biased. ~~~ Finnucane One could write a similarly ridiculous article about how renting is flushing your money down the drain, you're paying someone else's mortgage, etc. Worrying about the rent going up, hoping your landlord isn't too much of a scumbag, and so on. Sure, a house is not a great investment. But there's more to housing than investment. You have to live somewhere, and you're probably going to be paying for it one way or another. There's no perfect solution--you have to figure out what works for you. We bought this house nine years ago, and hope that we never have to move again. Now the mortgage is about half of what it would cost to rent an apartment in this neighborhood. That's kind of a trap, too. There's no point to thinking about moving--there's no place we could go that would be cheaper than what we have unless we leave the area entirely. ------ ThrustVectoring My financial roadmap has "buy and live in a duplex to quadplex in Texas" on it, just for creditor protection purposes. ------ hacknat Anyone who responds to this article by saying their particular house was a good investment didn’t read the article. ------ jeremymcanally Every house I've ever owned has (a) cost _way_ less per month than rent (I know it will cost less, but I mean on the order of nearly 50% less) and (b) appreciated enough after a short time that it made a sale worth it. The first house we owned appreciated by about $25k in 2 years, and the house we're in now (according to comps we just ran as we're preparing to sell) has appreciated about $80k+ in 3 years. You can make smart property choices, even for the home you occupy (i.e., not just rental properties). But "smart" includes evaluating all the criteria. If you live in an area with a ridiculous property market (e.g., the Bay Area) or a very, very slow one, then the investment isn't as enticing. I'm blessed to live in a market with a lot of movement for a variety of reasons, not just being a "hot" area to live in, but others are not so much. I'm also blessed to work remotely, so I can choose to live in an area like this. :) tl;dr: this is probably true in a lot of America, but it's not universal by any means. ------ SirLJ The point is quality of life... Under the bridge is free... ~~~ pdpi The article doesn’t say that buying a house is a bad idea — just that it’s a bad investment. There’s many reasonable motives for buying a house, you’re just better off making sure that those motives are strong enough by themselves and you’re not doing it “because it’s a good investment” ------ raspasov The article is basically correct. Let's explore the options. BUYING REAL ESTATE \------------------ Take the average price of a home in the USA, according to a google's top result, approximately 200,000. Take the average APR at the moment, 4.5%. That results in a $800 payment per month for 30 years if you put 20% downpayment of 40,000. (source [https://www.dollartimes.com/loans/mortgage- rate.php?length=3...](https://www.dollartimes.com/loans/mortgage- rate.php?length=30&amount=160000)) Depending on the area, you'll most likely be able to rent a similar home for the same or lower amount. BUYING STOCKS \------------- Take the same 40,000 downpayment and invest them in a low cost broad market index fund such as Vanguard, SPDR, etc. Assuming an average long term return of around 9% for the stocks, after 30 years this will result in around $600,000. (source [https://www.investor.gov/additional-resources/free- financial...](https://www.investor.gov/additional-resources/free-financial- planning-tools/compound-interest-calculator)) WHERE IT GETS INTERESTING \------------------------- Let's look at what happens after only 5 more years. Your investment has now grown to over %933,000! If you wait 5 more years (40 years total), the sum is now $1,400,000+ ! Why? Because investments in stocks are compounded! I believe one of the reasons why people think a house is an OK investment is because they don't realize the biggest flaw of one house - it does not really compound the way liquid stocks or ETFs do. In the short run it's hard to see the difference but given a long horizon the differences become enormous. There's reasons to own a home such a sentimental value, ability to modify it just you like it, etc. But people who believe it has been or is a great investment in the long term are deluding themselves. Look at it as something that's nice to have, or luxury if you will. PARTING THOUGHTS \------------------------- You can always come with an example where real estate was a great investment. You can make that argument both ways. If you bought real estate in 2009, you made great returns but if you do the above calculation for the average broad market ETF chances are the returns are even better! In the long term, history is on the side of dynamic stocks/companies and not real estate. I don't have a crystal ball and can't promise you that choosing one or the other will be better next month/year/decade etc(aka past results do not guarantee future returns). After all, this is all facts of the past :). ~~~ AstralStorm I'd like to see a stock that reliably compounds in the way described. It'd be a killer. What I see is at best stable few percent smoothed compounding. Not 100%. Please consider historical variance at the very least which vastly outstrips APR. Losses get compounded to and there are major opportunity costs when you actually need cash for any of various reasons. I have seen people get totally wiped out in a market crash. Some of them managed to keep property they owned. History is not on anybody's side. Companies can fall too. Houses can be incorporated or stolen or get dilapidated. ~~~ raspasov You don't buy a single stock, you buy a basket of stocks which reduces the risk of some companies failing or losing value. Absolute minimum 5, preferably 10+ or an ETF which effectively combines dozens or hundreds of companies under one ticker. It's easy to find one stock with way better returns than what I described over the long run, say 20+ years (example AAPL). It's also easy to find a stock that's way worse over 20 years (example HPQ). You have to keep up with that, sell the companies which are not good anymore, buy new ones, etc. That's why an ETF is an "easy way out" for a small fee (usually 0.1% of the money invested or lower). You can check the historical returns here and do the numbers for this ETF [https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/snapshot?FundId=0970&...](https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/snapshot?FundId=0970&FundIntExt=INT&funds_disable_redirect=true) . You'll find it's very close to what I am describing. ------ matte_black _Your_ house might be a terrible investment. Rental properties not so much.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Universally Accessible Web Application – The New Web - tirthbodawala https://www.atyantik.com/case-studies/universally-accessible-web-application/ ====== tirthbodawala I hope everyone likes the article and suggest updates to it.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
I Just Came Home to Sweden. I’m Horrified by the Coronavirus Response Here - imartin2k https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/04/sweden-coronavirus-response-death-social-distancing.html ====== rpiguy The author is truly hyperbolic, talking about mass death happening in Sweden and comparing it to not standing up to the Nazis. 2500 deaths is not mass death in a country where 90000 people die every year. So far it seems to be a tradeoff that the people of Sweden have accepted.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Diablo 3: The Blizzard sweatshop - evo_9 http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/131615-diablo-3-the-blizzard-sweatshop ====== mikemarotti That's exactly what this game feels like: a sweatshop. The auction house ruined all the excitement of the game for me - instead of gearing up through farming, they eliminate the "slot machine" appeal of the game by making the only way to gear up through the auction house. Basically, this means you're just running around mindlessly trying to collect as much gold as possible. I played Diablo 2 for 4 years straight; I played Diablo 3 for 2 weeks straight and shelved it. I did the same with SC2 as well... Blizzard games seem to have lost the magic for me. Obviously, I blame activision. ~~~ robbinsr _instead of gearing up through farming, they eliminate the "slot machine" appeal of the game by making the only way to gear up through the auction house._ Really? Just don't use the auction house, and farm for fun if that's your thing... This is a major complaint I see all the time about D3, but it doesn't make any sense. ~~~ dominicmauro Yeah. People seem to mistake "Auction House exists" with "Must cash out kids' college savings to buy new sword." ------ heifetz another view of the objective of the 15% tax is that Blizzard want to encourage people to leave money in the game, and not use the game as a money making machine. Sure, it doesn't stop farmers from making money off of the game, but if they want to cash out, they get taxed. ~~~ DrJ I think it's more of blizzard now make 15% of all (legitimate) gold farmer transactions.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
9 Women Can’t Make a Baby in a Month - kerben http://techcrunch.com/2011/03/30/9-women-cant-make-a-baby-in-a-month/ ====== ja27 A quote from an Agile / Scrum talk I saw last week: "Agile delivers things sooner, not necessarily faster." ------ Typhon Also, 9 women can't make a baby at all without a man. So, instead of 9 people with similar abilities, it's better to have 2 people whose abilities complement each other. ------ UnFleshedOne True if you need just one baby. If you need one baby per month on the other hand... Not quite sure how that translates to software development though... ~~~ jamaicahest Even then you would not get the first baby for at least 9 months. After that you would get one baby every month circa, but just as with most software development situations you can't speed up the first baby growth by throwing more people at it. ~~~ iwwr _you can't speed up the first baby growth by throwing more people at it_ No, but you can make the process more interesting. You could... _monetize_ the situation. ~~~ artmageddon I thought there were laws against that :) ------ m0nastic I've actually always disliked this analogy as it relates to project delivery (whether it be software development or a consulting project). It suggests that there is nothing anyone can do to decrease the amount of time that a baby gestates; but that's quite different from project delivery. While adding bodies does not necessarily divide the length of time required, there are absolutely concrete things which can be done to reduce the timeframe. You can reduce scope (or features) for starters. A woman doesn't have the option of delivering a "minimum viable product" of a baby (with only core features) in less than 9 months, but a consulting engagement could certainly cut out features to be completed sooner. Childbirth is a subset of project delivery whose completion dates are not particularly fungible. There are numerous other types that are. ~~~ michaelpinto Part of my career has been doing software project management, and it's been very rare that an end client that I was working for was willing to extend a deadline or limit the functionality of a project. If a company is run and backed by software professionals this may happen, but for most other projects you just aren't allowed to change the rules — which is why the baby analogy holds so true. ~~~ m0nastic Right, but here's my problem with that: I understand that the reason the analogy has become popular is because at some point, an idiot manager looked at a project plan, saw that the project was supposed to take (let's say) 6 months, and said "Hey, if we increase the number of developers from 2 to 6, that means it will only take 2 months." So I get why it's easy to respond with "9 women can't make a baby in 1 month." But let's say that instead the project plan said that it was going to take 6 months, and there was 1 developer on the project. It's absolutely likely that adding an additional number of developers can shave some time off that project (not inversely proportional to the number of developers you add, and not in every single circumstance, but I'd argue for the overwhelming majority of projects). The analogy suggests that no part of project development can be parallelized, which to me just seems like shitty management of the project. ~~~ michaelpinto The problem with the 6 months 1 programmer vs 1 month 6 programmers is that the minute you have more than one programmer they have to have an architecture that works together plus take time to communicate with each other — and then add to that the concept of a "critical path" i.e. that one programmer may not be able to start something until another programmer is done. Although in my professional experience the idea of adding more programmers is always suggested by the client about a week before the project is due!!! PS If you had to live through about ten of these clients you'd have the same religious feelings that I do for the Mythical Man Month. ------ Stormbringer Reproduction is an interesting analogy for software development, but like all metaphors it eventually fails. For instance there is the change of feature set as pointed out by m0nastic. Large projects tend to be very flexible in features over their development life, which is odd because usually its not the end user requirements that are changing. Another thing is varying programmer qualities. Some programmers can bang out a baby in 9 days. Some require 90 months to make the baby (hint: don't whinge about your hiring praxctices, man up and get rid of these ones). Some are completely infertile (fire these ones with extreme prejudice). Some project a field of radiation that will not only prevent themselves from making the baby, but will kill all babies in a 5 mile radius (do the world a favour: take these ones out back and shoot them, and then burn the body - _do not promote them to management!_ ). Continuing the reproduction metaphor, Yak Shaving can be considered similar to Onanism. While some people might not be able to make babies, they might be master craftsmen when it comes to building cribs. Some people might be bad programmers but really good at changing nappies... without these people you will be buried in a mountain of... 'cruft'. :D ------ ajdecon More correct (if less vivid): see Amdahl's Law. (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahls_law>) Most activities can only be made partly parallel. The rest must be serial; that is, will depend on steps done before, and cannot be made faster by breaking it up for more workers. If a task is 90% parallelizable, and you multiply the number of workers by 9, you only get a speedup of 5. If you multiply the number of workers by 100... you still only get about 9 times faster. :-) ------ duck Probably some credit for the title and article goes here? <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2364648> ~~~ torme No, it's actually been around much longer than that: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brookss_law> Not even sure if that's the origin of the phrase. ~~~ Imagenuity Corrected link for the lazy: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_law> ------ michaelpinto As a non-programmer The Mythical Man Month was perhaps one of the best books I've ever read to understand how to manage programmers, and how to explain to non-programmers how things work. If your goal is feature poor and bug filled software then you can ignore this advice — but if you want to manage a large scale project with multiple programmers this advice still works today. ------ nivertech Amdahl's law [1] in layman terms: "9 women cannot make a baby in one month." [1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahls_law> source: <http://twitter.com/#!/nivertech/status/51643148253933568> ------ d2 This is completely brilliant. Mark Suster is rapidly becoming my favorite VC blogger. ------ joeguilmette the analogy doesn't really work... because 9 women can make 9 babies in 9 months. ~~~ maxharris This is not the same thing. What if you have a pressing need for the result in one month, and you don't care about getting more later? Edit: for example, if you're trying to make a phone call, what good is having a high transmission rate if it means that you also have high latency? ------ erik_p ... no but it'd be fun to watch them try.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
From React to Riot 2.0 - tipiirai https://muut.com/blog/technology/riot-2.0/ ====== antihero I'm really not sure about the "problems" with React being described. Minified at 124k. Sure, but with gzip that's absolutely negligible. Unless your app utterly tiny, 124K is _nothing_ (the version of React with addons is 38K gzipped/minified). I'm not sure what they're going on about with React's dirty checking - all of that stuff is override-able, and things like batching are just a sane way of doing DOM updates. The verbosity, I'm not seeing it - sure there's JSX, but you mitigate this by abstracting components so you're building out of high-level components that mean that the complexity is only shown where it needs to be. JSX is also far nicer and more explicit than using HTML templates, and brings a lot to the table, especially with 0.12, including ES6-style patterns that work really nicely for describing a structure of components. Also, not sure about the "boilerplate". What are they talking about? React.createComponent({ render(){ return <span/>; }); No boilerplate there. There's not even that much _to_ remember, aside from the component lifecycle, some handy utilities, and a few useful addons. There are some more complicated but optional things like PropTypes (not necessary at all, but a nice way to provide type requirements for your component's properties) and contexts (which is at current undocumented and a bit weird, but that's not really an official feature). Unless you are building apps that are utterly tiny, none of this makes sense. Looking at Riot2, it looks very implicit and magical - how do we know where the HTML ends and the script starts? How do you break your logic apart and have any sort of code re-use? And for a "non-framework" it certainly seems to deviate from HTML + JS quite a bit. ~~~ tipiirai You clearly love React and it works for you. The article is about the issues _we_ had and how Riot solved them. ~~~ lmartel Could you answer a few of the parent's questions, though? We know that the article is about your issues, but we're curious to hear why these seemingly insignificant issues mattered to you. ------ sisk An aside but I became curious when riot was mentioned two days in a row, first thing in the east-coast morning, submitted by the same author. While self-promotion is a skill, the submitter's comment and submission history is painfully focused exclusively on their own work. I can certainly appreciate being proud of the things you build—that's great—but it comes across as disingenuous when it is quite literally the only thing you contribute to the discussion. ~~~ tipiirai That's indeed the case. I basically code my own things and then release them as open source. jQuery Tools, Head JS and now Riot.js 2.0 to name the biggest contributions. HN is an unique place to get feedback for your own work. I certainly have opinions about others work as well but usually I keep my mouth shut and go back to work. ~~~ sisk Having the confidence to release your projects as open-source is excellent and something I wish more people had. However—by your own description—HN is a place where you solicit feedback but can't be bothered to extend the same courtesy to your peers. Think of it like a conversation. If I approach you asking for feedback on my projects but never return the favor, does that not seem suspicious? ~~~ tipiirai I tend to give feedback on a form of GitHub issue. It's more focused and the discussion doesn't explode. For my own projects I like to get all the rants as well. Gives a broader picture. I have a feeling that HN doesn't have a very strict etiquette. ~~~ sisk Fair point. To be clear, I take nothing away from what you've done here: More tooling options are rarely—if ever—a bad thing and your presentation of riot is beautiful and clear, very well executed. ------ bringking I am not sure why it's becoming popular to say "It’s unacceptable that the underlying framework is bigger than the application itself." If your domain specific implementation is smaller than the framework itself, it means the framework did exactly what it was supposed to do, it reduced the amount of work you had to do to implement your app. ~~~ alexro it is really unacceptable when your app can do without it - and that's Riot is trying to prove. It doesn't mean to hurt your feelings. ~~~ bringking I agree that it is unacceptable/irresponsible in a way to have a larger payload than is necessary, but I think that is a different issue. Something like selective importing only what you need from the framework vs. the whole shebang. ~~~ alexro That's another way of staying minimal, but still, the library makers get to maintain that pile of rarely used features and that may slow down development, delay releases. ------ gitspirit There was a discussion of Riot yesterday: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8928433](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8928433) I can see Riot taking it's fair share of the market with the websites that have not-so-complex structure and can benefit from code/size optimization, like various search engines, sharing apps, financial tools, etc. The key here would be faster than React sever-side rendering - isomorphic apps seem to be the uprising trend at the moment. ------ jasim I am not sure I see the value over React yet, but the more experiments in the field we have, the better we collectively are. So thanks a lot for building and open-sourcing this. Is there a non-trivial example of a Riot project that we can look at the code for? My confusion is around conditionals. The documentation says: In Riot the HTML structure is fixed. Only loops and conditionals can add and remove elements. But a div cannot be converted to a label for example. Riot only updates the expressions without complex subtree replacements. "Currently if is implemented with CSS display property as well". Considering this, how would I implement a page that has to show two completely different components based on a form input? ~~~ insin Seems like you'd have to include all possible components and toggle them based on a variable. It doesn't seem like you can apply an if attribute to a component directly - the second component here never disappears, but the first is wrapped in a <div> and does: [http://bl.ocks.org/insin/5e0bf04cf1f701c235ad](http://bl.ocks.org/insin/5e0bf04cf1f701c235ad) ~~~ jasim Thanks a lot, this clarifies it. Having only CSS based hiding of components (and only if wrapped within a div) is a bummer. I am curious to know how the authors plan to work around it for serious app development. ------ xtian > To some extent we questioned whether anyone needed a framework at all. This is the #1 saddest trend in software today. I see it all the time. Look, if you can't figure out what value people get from a tool, please don't bother comparing your thing to it. ~~~ tipiirai Riot is compared to React mostly and React worked as an _inspiration_ for it. We totally see the value in it. We have used it and still use it on production. Not sure if you have seen the React vs Riot 2.0 comparison: [https://muut.com/riotjs/compare.html](https://muut.com/riotjs/compare.html) ~~~ xtian React isn't a framework. ------ crudbug I have been reading this since yesterday. Can you shed some light on how can you include jQuery plugins with VDOM support. Ractivejs [1] does it using decorators feature. [1] [http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23083841/ractivejs-and- jq...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23083841/ractivejs-and-jquery- plugins) ------ crudbug Observation: I see JavaScript web component frameworks following what JSF invented some 10 years back, xhtml templates & Expression language for processing context. Is the '{}' syntax configurable ? like jinja2 ? I would love to change it to '#{}' for making it consistent with EL. ------ fdsary They say it's "React-like", but afaik it doesn't do the cool things with a virtual dom? What's cool about React is how it doesn't write to the DOM all the time, only when there is a diff. Does Riot do that? If not, thanks but it doesn't compete with React. Also, does it render to string? ~~~ tipiirai Yup. In Riot the DOM is only updated when there is a diff. Server side support is coming so you can do "isomorphic" apps and render components on the HTML page as string. Current 2.0.1 does not support this feature. ~~~ alexro Being able to render progressively to the response buffer would be great	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
On Russia, Facebook Sends a Message It Wishes It Hadn’t - uptown https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/19/technology/russia-facebook-trump.html ====== zaroth NYT has their head in the sand and is in full on damage control over the Mueller indictment of a dozen internet trolls. The so-called “troll factory” is pretty old news, reported widely in Russia last year. [1] They just keep writing these articles trying to “fact check” or otherwise disassemble a qualified primary source inside FB which goes against their narrative. NYT talks about the “millions of dollars” that Russia spent on the troll factory (how many millions? I’ve read that would be $2) to “influence the election”. The majority of which was spent _after_ the election. The great Russian stolen election comes down to this? Either the Russians are exponentially better at advertising than the best minds in the DNC, or maybe the Russian boogeyman story is losing its shine. The NYT (and MSM media in general) is doing Russia’s job for them, which I have to assume is more than Moscow could have ever dreamed of. This is why Trump tweets they are laughing their asses off. People are desperate to see Trump’s election as illegitimate rather than confront the much scarier reality of why he won. Personally I rather hope the DNC figures this out sooner than later, and finds a candidate and a platform that is electable by 2024. [1] - [https://www.rbc.ru/magazine/2017/11/59e0c17d9a79470e05a9e6c1](https://www.rbc.ru/magazine/2017/11/59e0c17d9a79470e05a9e6c1) ~~~ gandhium > The so-called “troll factory” is pretty old news Why it's old news if they're still trolling? > Either the Russians are exponentially better at advertising than the best > minds in the DNC No, just their labour is exponentially cheaper. ~~~ zaroth The Internet, and social media in general, is just a trolls playground. Why do I care about a few dozen trolls in particular? Spending a few hundred thousand dollars promoting stories into news feeds. This is like worrying about my camp fire contributing to global warming. I can understand the desire to want to blame some great evil force for corrupting democracy, when it’s so much harder to look in the mirror. Personally I think the overall vitriol against Trump is the single biggest reason he won. Telling someone they’re a shitstain for their political beliefs is the surest-fire way to get them out to vote against you. ~~~ gandhium Wow. Looks like you're actively try to downplay this fact. ~~~ zaroth In an election when the two parties combined spent almost $2 billion, I'm not particularly concerned with an alleged ad buy of "thousands of dollars per month" [1] The same group, by the way, which was promoting "Not My President" stories after the election. [2] This is a story of Russia sowing discord, but since the MSM played directly into their hands in that regard, they don't want to report it accurately. Even 538 [3] can't get it right. In their analysis of whether IRA had any impact on the election ("Who Can Say?") they claim the IRA had a monthly operating budget the equivalent of $1.25 million USD. In fact what the indictment actually claims is; "By in or around September 2016, the ORGANIZATION’s monthly budget for Project Lakhta submitted to CONCORD exceeded 73 million Russian rubles (over 1,250,000 U.S. dollars), including approximately one million rubles in bonus payments" [4] But in the paragraph immediately above; "CONCORD funded the [IRA] as part of a larger CONCORD-funded interference operation that it referred to as “Project Lakhta.” Project Lakhta had multiple components, some involving domestic audiences within the Russian Federation and others targeting foreign audiences in various countries, including the United States." So when 538 writes "The indictment alleges that an organization called the Internet Research Agency had a monthly budget of approximately $1.25 million toward interference efforts by September 2016" this is simply false. In a story attempting to assess the reach and impact of Russian interference in the election, IMO this is a fatal flaw in their reporting. Now that the "collusion" narrative is dead, the new buzzword is "interference". But personally I'm not convinced "thousands of dollars of ad spend" are convincing evidence of _interference_. No doubt Russia loves sowing discord in the US and has done so for _decades_. The story simply hasn't lived up to the narrative, and it's playing into Russia's hand to try to make it bigger than it really was. I guess maybe we're just about ready to move on from anger to bargaining. Really, this has gone on long enough. [1] - [https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4380504/The- Speci...](https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4380504/The-Special- Counsel-s-Indictment-of-the-Internet.pdf) \-- Paragraph #35 on Pg 14 [2] - Indictment, Paragraph #57 [3] - [https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-much-did-russian- in...](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-much-did-russian-interference- affect-the-2016-election/) [4] - Indictment, Paragraph #11(b) ~~~ gandhium > So when 538 writes "The indictment alleges that an organization called the > Internet Research Agency had a monthly budget of approximately $1.25 million > toward interference efforts by September 2016" this is simply false Why? You're basically confirmed their assessment. Besides, why did you said "only $2 millions" before, if there was $1.5 millions _monthly_? ~~~ zaroth Read carefully... The indictment claims that _Project Lakhta_ had a monthly budget of $1.25m USD. "Project Lakhta had multiple components, some involving domestic audiences within the Russian Federation and others targeting foreign audiences in various countries, including the United States." One _component_ of Project Jakhta was the Internet Research Agency - the troll factory. Even IRA itself has a purview much larger than just sowing discord in the US around the election -- see, e.g. the Wikipedia article. [1] The $2m (total, not monthly) figure was reported last year. [1] - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency) ~~~ gandhium So, what's the difference with "the ORGANIZATION’s monthly budget for Project Lakhta submitted to CONCORD exceeded 73 million Russian rubles (over 1,250,000 U.S. dollars)" ? Why is that statement false? ------ mzs also NYT, basically saying Rob Goldman's (ads VP) tweets defending FB were bupkis [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/19/technology/facebook- execu...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/19/technology/facebook-executive- russia-tweets-fact-check.html) ~~~ makomk Marcy Wheeler, who's been doing a lot of good writing on Trump, Russia and Mueller lately, wrote a rather scathing - and in my view fairly convincing - article criticising this claimed fact check: [https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/02/19/in-two-so-called- fact-...](https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/02/19/in-two-so-called-fact-checks- of-facebook-nyt-forgets-everything-it-knows-about-indictments/) (Not that it matters. The New York Times can convince the world that black is white and white is black, and everyone will believe them. Won't be the first time.) ------ supercanuck >According to figures published by Facebook last October, 44 percent of the Russian-bought ads were displayed before the 2016 election, while 56 percent were shown afterward. Why would they increase their investment on a failed ad campaign? ------ vthallam He indirectly said the media is running a biased campaign. Even if he personally means so, alienating all mainstream media who is already mad about facebook for various reasons at best could be termed as not clever. Also, there's a ongoing investigation and some indictments which say Russia ran a campaign, commenting about that, I don't know what he was thinking. I am thinking this will only add more focus to "FB as a tool to influence elections" narrative. ------ imhelpingu > "Why is educating citizens about digital literacy the solution to > misinformation, as Mr. Goldman suggested, rather than fixing the tech > platforms that make misinformation hard to distinguish from truth?" _Literally,_ "why educate people when you can just restrict speech?" ------ nostromo "Facebook accidentally tells the truth, even though it's not helpful for Facebook politically. Facebook regrets the error." ~~~ loorinm Did you even read the article? The tweets are egregiously misleading and bring absolutely zero to facebook’s case for playing the victim. ~~~ nostromo From the article: > Some of Mr. Goldman’s claims may have been narrowly true, but they were a > prime example of misdirection > Why should it reassure us that most of Russia’s Facebook advertising was > purchased after the election, rather than telling us that Facebook continued > to drop the ball even after it knew it had a Russia problem? The Times is admitting the tweets weren't wrong. The Times is criticizing Facebook's actions because they disrupted their preferred narrative of the election. ------ mtgx > He continued: “The majority of the Russian ad spend happened AFTER the > election. We shared that fact, but very few outlets have covered it because > it doesn’t align with the main media narrative of Tump [sic] and the > election.” Not a fan of Facebook, but that I can believe. ~~~ asabjorn This seems like a very relevant piece of information. Why should anyone wish he didn’t say this if it is true? This seems to indicate that the election wasn’t compromised to the degree we thought. ~~~ learc83 Or it indicates that after better than expected results the Russian government drastically increased the budget for Facebook ads. There is no conspiracy to keep this information hidden, it's just a story that can be framed 2 ways. "Russia spent the majority of money on Facebook ads after the election." "Russia spent money on social media to influence the election. Then after analyzing the performance of their ad buys, they decided to ramp up spending on Facebook ads." ~~~ asabjorn I would agree with you if the conversation topic wasn’t specifically how Russia meddled with the pre election result. People discredit the vote of half of the US people in the belief they were partially fooled by Russia, and if that is not true then discrediting their voice in such a way makes it hard for us to listen to each other’s different values and problems through discourse. ~~~ learc83 None of what you're saying is a logical argument against any part of my comment. I showed how this comment "The majority of the Russian ad spend happened AFTER the election." doesn't say anything about the extent Russia was interfering _before_ the election. The only thing that statement supports is that they were interfering even more after the election. You never refuted that. >People discredit the vote of half of the US people in the belief they were partially fooled by Russia, and if that is not true Again a completely invalid counter argument. I said that it likely is true. A valid counterargument would involve "no it's not true because...", not " _if_ it's not true then I'm right". ~~~ asabjorn I think you are missing the point of my comment; the burden of proof is on the entity claiming election meddling, and this indicated that core parts of the evidence need closer scrutiny and that the case is not as straightforward as NYT etal has claimed. I am saying this as a libertarian that was upset about the election result. I personally thought something smelled fishy earlier given how the evidence was presented and believed what I read in NYT etal. ~~~ learc83 No you're failing to engage in a discussion. "the burden of proof is on the entity claiming election meddling" How does that have anything to do with my assertion that this "The majority of the Russian ad spend happened AFTER the election." doesn't make it _any_ less likely that Russia interfered in the election? You still haven't showed why "The majority of the Russian ad spend happened AFTER the election." decreases the likelihood that Russia successfully interfered in the election. You don't seem to be actually reading what I'm writing. If you want to continue debating please respond with why Russia spending even more money after a successful ad campaign is evidence that they didn't impact the election. If you'd rather not then good day. ~~~ asabjorn You never made a real connection as to why post ad spend means pre-election subterfuge, so your fact is not a fact. What you are stating is a theory you haven't proven at all, and all your subsequent arguments and defenses don't hold or mean anything. You have no evidence to your claim. All you have done is make a theory and expect the rest of us to accept it as fact. If you come back with actual proof instead of just a theory maybe we can consider further discourse. ~~~ learc83 >You never made a real connection as to why post ad spend means pre-election subterfuge, so your fact is not a fact This shows me that you aren't actually reading what I'm writing. >You have no evidence to your claim. What is my claim? Based on the above you don't seem to have any idea. ~~~ asabjorn > This shows me that you aren't actually reading what I'm writing. > What is my claim? Based on the above you don't seem to have any idea. After your comment on me not engaging in discussion and not understanding what you said I actually sent this thread to someone that is professionally trained in debating to gain better understanding. There is no point in being right on the internet, and a learning opportunity is always worthwhile. The professional debater I sent this thread to got the same impression as me on what your line of argument was and suggested I respond in the way I did. If you mean something else then I am therefore not the only one at a loss, and like me I suggest that you introspect so that you can improve. Show this thread to someone you trust to be good at discourse and get feedback. We are all fumbling when formulating our thoughts and that is ok. What is not ok is to act rudely. ~~~ learc83 I've been debating on internet forums since the late mid 90s, and I'm going to be completely honest with you--this takes the cake for the most absurdly petty debate tactic I have ever seen. This isn't sarcasm I am actually pretty shocked by this. Seriously? You're right because an unseen "professional debater" agrees with you? ~~~ asabjorn I give up. How did you get that from what I said? What I am talking about is process to bridge the problem of you saying your viewpoint is not getting across and how I’ve engaged in the same process. I am not saying I am right or you are wrong, I was making a constrictive suggestion on how to further the debate after I had exhausted my options for understanding what you mean by your claims being misunderstood. However, I believe the arguments I thought you made to be entirely unsupported by the facts provided although I have to trust you that your viewpoint is not getting across so commenting on that is irrelevant. As part of showing you how far I’ve gone to introspect I explained to you the lengths to which I’ve gone. I think it’s unconstructive to take offense to someone telling you how they’ve tried to show empathy and respect your feedback. Good luck with other debates and peace out. ~~~ learc83 >I think it’s unconstructive to take offense to someone telling you how they’ve tried to show empathy and respect your feedback. I'll offer you some feedback. Your previous post came across as incredibly condescending at best and as a completely bonkers debate tactic at worst. If that was a sincere attempt at displaying empathy and respect, I would work on your communication skills--maybe with someone who isn't a "professional debater".	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Pirate Bay, Showtime caught forcing visitors to mine cryptocurrency for them - js7745 https://www.rt.com/news/404820-piratebay-showtime-cryptocurrency-mining/ ====== js7745 If they got out all of the bugs in the tech this would be an amazing business model	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Panopticlick: browser fingerprinting research - datico http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/01/help-eff-research-web-browser-tracking ====== samdk In public browsing (in Firefox) I'm unique. In private browsing I'm 1 in ~17000. Interestingly, removing some of the non-standard fonts I have installed made me unique, even in private mode. This surprises me, because I have some pretty unusual fonts installed. _edit_ : And actually, now that I test again, it does find one other match even in non-private mode. I guess that it's counting each me as a new person each time I do it, even though I'm connecting from the same IP with the same exact browser configuration. ~~~ blahedo Not surprising given that fonts tend to come in groups---did you remove _all_ your nonstandard fonts? If five people out of a million install the same unusual font pack, and one removes all but one font from the pack, that one will be a unique even though the configuration is "more like" a common one. ------ ntoshev I wonder if you can identify people using habitual patterns of mouse moving and pauses between keys when typing. ------ jodrellblank "Your browser fingerprint appears to be unique among the 45,667 tested so far." I use FlashBlock and Ghostery as well. ------ geuis Hmm, so I understand what they're tracking. But what's the end game for this experiment?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
AI chip said to outperform GPUs - rbanffy https://www.embedded.com/electronics-news/4461127/AI-chip-said-to-outperform-GPUs ====== MBCook AT AI TASKS. Isn’t it common sense that task specific silicone is usually faster than adapting something else? Isn’t this why Apple and Google have been making their own AI processors instead of using the GP use in their devices?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Failin.gs - ams1 http://failin.gs/ ====== transmit101 Many peoples' personal weakpoint: Listening too much to what other people think about them. This website has all the attributes to become a viral Facebook/Twitter hit, and it's clearly been designed to achieve this. But why not give it a miss, and focus on what you're doing in your life instead of on what other people think of you. Especially when they don't even have the courage to say it to your face. ~~~ orblivion Well, sometimes there is something that only other people can see. I think there are some opinions about my traits that I happily ignore, I know what's best for me, but certain things about me bother _me_ , not just others. Particularly, being somewhat anxiety prone, things like, "am I worrying about this too much or not enough?". I'm actually quite glad this is up, I'd considered that something like it would be useful. EDIT: Oh wait I got it all wrong. This is asking your friends for anonymous feedback? Yikes, no, I don't want to hear what they have to say. I thought this was an anonymous Q/A thing. Like Vark for personality flaws. ~~~ houseabsolute There is a saying that every man is a coin viewed from a fixed position. The face of himself that he sees no one else can see, likewise, he sees the face of everyone else that they cannot see. And thus, no man knows another as that other believes himself to be. ------ thorax In the old days of LiveJournal (decade ago) there was some brutal honesty meme which was supposed to be 100% anonymous. I made like 50 (exaggeration) different surveys and then made 50 different "private" posts of the link to each individual friend. Of course to everyone it looked just like a friends- only link and they assumed everybody was going to the same anonymous /aggregated survey. I told them all pretty quickly afterwards about my silliness and put only mildly incriminating questions in the survey, just enough to make them worry about the other memes they'd been filling out. Of course I also confirmed that one friend was head over heels in love with me. I so happen to be married to that darling girl nowadays. Moral: If you're filling these out, don't assume it's 100% anonymous to the person you're writing about. They could be sneaky. ~~~ stephencelis No sneakiness here! While we track visitors and users in order to look out for abuse, this data is not and will not be made available to profile users. ~~~ thorax I think you misunderstood the exploit for identifying the anonymous comments. It works with pretty much any survey where you can individualize communications: I create 20 accounts on your service. I put my picture on all of them. I send out a different link/profile to each one of my 20 friends and track which one went to which person. I then compare notes to see who said what. Note that it's also really easy to do this using a URL shortener service that keeps track of times clicked, user agents, referrers, and IP addresses: <http://➨.ws/anonymous_survey> By using the timestamps you provide for the comments, I can tell which of my friends most likely made each comment. ------ philwelch This reminds me of the old Calvin & Hobbes strip where Calvin is selling "a swift kick in the butt" for $1.00. Business is slow and Calvin says, "I don't understand it, everybody I know needs what I'm selling!" ~~~ samwithans Good call - <http://bit.ly/9BYtb9> ------ stephencelis I helped co-create this site and was surprised to find it linked here. It started as a fun project with a friend: a humorous idea that, as the attention it's gotten has shown, is apparently controversial, as well. I have to say, though, that what's surprised me most about its reception is that anonymity doesn't make users as vicious as many might think. I've been pleased with how many "failings" posted are sweet compliments; playful inside jokes; and well-worded, well-meaning suggestions. If anyone would like to try it out, I've made a promo code, "HACKERNEWS". We'd love any suggestions and/or feedback. ~~~ jaxn I got an invite today. At first I thought "Oh crap, someone has something they want to post about me!!!" Then I remembered I requested an account last week :) That initial invitation email kinda weirded me out. However, as someone who has had a blog for going on 9 years, this is an interesting new way to play with personal transparency. Feel free to tell me I suck at leaving comments on HN, just post it here: <http://failin.gs/profile/jaxn> ~~~ stephencelis Thanks for joining! Please let us know what you think after using it a little while. We'll leave you a note for your profile if we don't hear from you ;) ------ tarouter I love the idea. It's very good for people who can take criticism. It's up to you after all which criticism to ignore and which to take seriously. It should be made easier for other to post opinions about you by integrating this into some famous application (e.g. facebook app, blog widget, etc). ~~~ stephencelis There's JavaScript embed code for blogs, and links for tweeting and posting to Facebook, but we agree, and we'll be working (as we find time) on better integration with other services. ------ timinman Possibly the unhealthy thing about this is the anonymity, and it might not be very successful either, because of human nature. I think most people are subject to being categorised one of two ways. CATEGORY 1 (Confident Achievers): Largely oblivious to their own flaws (This won't easily help them because they'll challenge the answers). If the truth does break in it can be very painful for this type of person. CATEGORY 2 (Reflective Thinkers): All too aware of their own flaws (And this won't help them; it will only make them feel more insecure). I'd have to admit to being in the second category, and wouldn't for a second believe it's superior to the first (just different). Which category are you, or are there more categories? ------ johnfn I remember how reading that Facebook was engineered to give you the most positive experience. This feels like the total opposite sort of thing. I don't think it will be a huge success, though, because as much people say that they want constructive criticism, what they really want to hear is how great they are. Going to this site would just be disappointing and frustrating for most people. ~~~ stephencelis My friend (and the co-creator of the site) likes to point out that Facebook, Twitter, et al., are ego-strokers, and he wanted to make an ego-buster. I don't think either of us expected it to become as successful as it has already. It's all just been a bonus. ------ jonathandeamer Formspring, but in a different context. And that's no bad thing. (See also: [http://jonathandeamer.com/2009/08/19/daily-booth-4chan- impor...](http://jonathandeamer.com/2009/08/19/daily-booth-4chan-importance- context-restrictions/)) ------ kellishaver This seems like it would be an all too entirely unpleasant experience. :( The thing is, the way I see it, for me, the friends whose opinions I really trust and value are the same friends who are going to straight-up tell me to my face if I have some flaw that needs addressing, whether I want to hear it or not, because they have my best interests at heart. As for everyone else's opinions, or the nit-picky little things that we all tend to overlook in each other, anyway, then I just don't see those as needing to be brought to the surface, because it serves no good. ~~~ stephencelis > the friends whose opinions I really trust and value are the same friends who > are going to straight-up tell me to my face if I have some flaw that needs > addressing, whether I want to hear it or not This has been one of the biggest "why?"s we've gotten. I don't think it's that simple, though. Telling a person their flaws requires timing, braveness, and an open mind on the part of the listener. In an ideal world, people would be receptive to honest criticism, and people would be honest in what they feel is worth criticizing. The site, though, provides a platform where the profile user is requesting feedback that a good friend may not have thought worth bringing up, had never had the right moment to bring up, or may have been afraid to bring up and hurt the person's feelings (and their friendship). When the platform is there, it's easier to break the ice. ------ dwohlfahrt this site straight up weirds me out... that's all i got ~~~ Batsu Agreed. It's strange to try to put a positive spin on everyone's shortcomings. ~~~ stephencelis Well, it's certainly not for everyone, but shortcomings are only shortcomings as long as you agree with them and don't care to work on them. ------ lucraft Signed up to have a play around, and was happy because for once I managed to get the "dan" username. Hooray! Then I realized my profile was at failin.gs/profile/dan. And they automatically picked up my gravatar. Yikes. Deleted the account and rejoined with something more obscure.... ~~~ justdep Your gravatar is tied to your email address. ------ euroclydon Well, I guess it's official, people have lost the capacity for introspection. ~~~ stephencelis Not a substitute, but a complement. ------ charlesju Great idea. I think I'm still too self-absorbed to actively ask for critiques on my personal character though. Maybe I'll be mature (brave) enough to do this in a couple more years. ~~~ stanleydrew But this is perfect for the self-absorbed! It gets everyone thinking and talking about you and your imperfections. ------ samwithans What's stopping a person from creating a profile for someone (maybe someone who's "unpopular")?? Seems like it could devolve into juicycampus.com for... everyone. ~~~ stephencelis This is definitely a concern. We're working on a lot of anti-abuse features that will roll out, though, before it leaves private beta. ------ xpaulbettsx Small bug, times appear in GMT, not my local TZ... ~~~ stephencelis Haven't had time to finish the JavaScript component to this. Working on it! ------ mikeyur Sounds like a personal single-purpose version of Rypple (<http://rypple.com/>) ------ bdr A startup that tried something like this: <http://hikkup.com/> ------ csomar I think I'll recognize all of my friends with their writing styles and ideas... ------ brandnewlow Post up your worst enemies. ------ pclark love to try this. codes? ~~~ stephencelis Try "HACKERNEWS". ------ shawn7400 This place is turning into Digg.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The Thing About Burnout - yarapavan https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1oGNNZn4eX-a0jj9W04NjeP-2RzLkCmlxyKC8UXmfauo/edit#slide=id.g654c726fad_2_142 ====== nunez Really solid talk. This really hit me. I don't know about anyone else, but a sign that I'm burned out is when I start having trouble composing sentences/finding words for things	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
What law books should an entrepreneur read? - sycren ====== blakdawg Also, what computer books should attorneys read? Obviously, if an attorney had a big IT project they should hire a professional, but they could probably get a good head start if they read a few computer books for background, right? ------ chris_dcosta The law game is generally about solving disagreements and disputes between people, but you already have a good idea of what comes into play if you are a logical thinker. You can mostly second guess the issues, although lawyers are there to add the experience (case law) to what you may already know. Some of it is surprising and that's what can wrong foot the amateur. I would never advocate not having a lawyer, but as I say thinking about what could already be a point of dispute is already ahead of the issue. ------ damoncali The Entrepreneur's Guide to Business Law: [http://www.amazon.com/Entrepreneurs-Guide-Business- Law/dp/05...](http://www.amazon.com/Entrepreneurs-Guide-Business- Law/dp/0538466464/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1327284075&sr=8-1) It's the only one you'll need - it basically covers everything required to jump into an intelligent conversation with your attorney. ------ akadien None. An entrepreneur should hire a lawyer for legal matters and focus on building a company. ~~~ mindcrime I don't disagree with the idea of "division of labor" and specialization and all that, but I think it's short-sighted to say an entrepreneur should not read at least a little about business law. As an entrepreneur, I think it's valuable to have at least enough of an understanding to know what questions to ask, and to be able to have an informed conversation with your legal counsel. There's quite a continuum between studying as much as a lawyer-in-training, and going and taking a "Business Law 101" course, or just reading the textbook from a "Business Law 101" course. I think most entrepreneurs would be well served by at least reading over such a textbook or taking such a class. ~~~ sycren I agree with you though I concede that one should hire a lawyer when facing litigation or starting it. I meant more along the lines of starting a project, finding an idea to take further. I think that it is this stage where an entrepreneur when researching should read some law books and was wondering if there were any some could suggest.. ~~~ akadien Good luck on your project research, then. I don't have any law book recommendations. I still contend you may be better off talking to a lawyer about what you need to know rather than reading law books during your research phase. They can cut through all the company formation, IP, etc. jargon pretty quickly.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Increase your productivity with a gaming mouse - marioch4 https://graymatters.substack.com/p/-how-to-boost-your-productivity-with ====== legopiece Many good points. Would love to see a similar article but focused on using a gaming mouse on Mac. I've never been a fan of the magic mouse's ergonomics...	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The Internet Says Goodbye - Boriss http://www.donotlick.com/2014/07/05/the-internet-says-goodbye/ ====== doctorshady The author lost me when they said culture needs to evolve for the web. Technologies become popular because they're culturally compatible with who we are, not because they have the potential to be that if we change. ~~~ Boriss That is how technologies become popular, but the process is symbiotic: culture changes from technologies also. For example, mobile phones became popular because they were culturally compatible: we wanted to be able to contact anyone from anywhere, and this technology met that need. As mobile phones gained usage, culture shifted because of it: we started messaging more frequently in text, we started ignoring the world around us when we wanted to use our phone instead, possibly our attention spans decreased, etc. These changes are not "decided upon," but derive from the way technology meets our needs. Our culture shifts through our technology use. But sometimes, our cultural needs aren't fully met by technology. Those who feel socially isolated yet communicate plenty via the internet may feel some of this. Just as our physical needs prompt technology, our cultural needs can do so as well. It's a process that goes on whether or not we're conscious of it, so being conscious of it, I'd argue, is important.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Pain27 keyboard - sodapopcan https://github.com/uuupah/pain27 ====== DavidVoid If you're interested in getting a tiny keyboard then there are actually quite a few other "too" small custom keyboards which unlike the one in the OP are fairly usable. Some examples: The ortholinear layout Gherkin: [http://www.40percent.club/2016/11/gherkin.html](http://www.40percent.club/2016/11/gherkin.html) The THKB - Tiny Hacking Keyboard: [https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/thkb- tiny-hacking-keyboa...](https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/thkb-tiny-hacking- keyboard-40-t6455.html) The split MiniDox: [https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/6rh8mp...](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/6rh8mp/my_mini_dox/) Personally I use a slightly larger 60% HHKB Pro 2 which imo has a great layout (and fantastic switches!): [https://www.keychatter.com/wp- content/uploads/2015/02/keycha...](https://www.keychatter.com/wp- content/uploads/2015/02/keychatter_2015-02-24_20-59-34.jpg) ~~~ amanzi How do you manage without arrow keys? I use a Cooler Master "M" sized keyboard which combines the arrow keys and a number pad. It's the smallest usable keyboard that works for me: [http://www.coolermaster.com/peripheral/keyboards/masterkeys-...](http://www.coolermaster.com/peripheral/keyboards/masterkeys- pro-m-white/) ~~~ Fnoord What do you use arrow keys for? For example for Vi(m) you can just use hjkl. For gaming, you can just use wasd. If you really do need arrow keys, get a keyboard which doesn't have a keypad. ~~~ amanzi I don't think I have any other reason to use them apart from muscle memory--I can't live without them now... ~~~ Fnoord That's a valid _personal_ reason to not want change, and a difficult one to tackle for alternative keyboard layouts. Only reason I'd use them is shell (Bash/Fish in my case). In gaming and Vi(m) I just use the better alternatives which require less movement of the hand. ------ ChuckMcM Wow, aptly named. Now with a couple of foot pedals, one for shift and one for control? That could be something. ~~~ vertexFarm Now to be fair, it would be a little absurd to build the most compact possible keyboard, yet get stuck carrying around some foot pedals like you're headed to a lan party with racing games or something. But sometimes a little absurd is cool when it comes to custom keyboards. I kind of want to build this or the Gherkin posted above! ~~~ pavel_lishin I agree, that's ridiculous. Clearly, a sip/puff/bite controller would be more convenient, both in terms of compactness and usability. ~~~ hoosieree Or midi breath control, where you have to modulate your breath pressure to get shift, alt, alt+shift, control, etc. Surely most people can handle 4 bits of resolution with their breath power, right? ~~~ trentlott Suck/blow + hard/soft ------ mds A video of someone actually building and typing on one of these: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIDs8tq5Pa4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIDs8tq5Pa4) ~~~ faitswulff This was captivating. Love that he goes through the entire build process and then at the end says: > As for the actual usability, it’s terrible. Absolutely terrible. I didn’t > even try to use it for more than a couple of minutes because I don’t have > the time. This is purely a display piece, because for anything that isn’t a > speed typing test, it was just too much to access the other keys. ------ jaffee If you like this, see [http://www.40percent.club/](http://www.40percent.club/) In particular: [http://www.40percent.club/2016/11/gherkin.html](http://www.40percent.club/2016/11/gherkin.html) ~~~ LukeShu (The Gherkin is a 30%, not a 40%!) I mean people actually use and enjoy for day-to-day use 40% keyboards like the Planck. I don't think they Pain27 is to be used by anyone for anything other than WPM tests. ------ ams6110 Not really too much worse than the old TI-99/4A keyboard. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Instruments_TI-99/4A#/me...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Instruments_TI-99/4A#/media/File:TI99-IMG_7132.jpg) ~~~ pm215 Man, the number of times I hit function-= (reset the computer) on that thing when I meant shift-=... lots of lost unsaved work. ------ Fnoord The backwards compatibility users require (myself included) holds back innovation, in so many ways. The problem with any non-standard keyboard is it being non-standard. The biggest problem is a different layout than Qwerty (though its a bit more complex; e.g. Azerty is standard in Belgium, Colemak is only marginally different from Qwerty, whereas Dvorak is completely different). If the layout sticks to the defacto standard (Qwerty) then you can argue less is more. However, there are some minimum needs and once keys have different positions compared to a dumbed down Qwerty keyboard (without keypad or keypad + arrows + the other [6 + 3] keys on the right). It also depends on what you're used to. Having used the keyboard on Nokia E71 and Nokia N900 and Nokia N810 I lost a lot of CLI speed just from factors such as: non-standard keybinds (e.g. requiring combos for standard Bash and Emacs keybinds), non- standard amount of keys, small keys, with not much travel. There are many examples mentioned in this thread. Some membrane, some mechanical, but generally full size keys just without keys such as spacebar, enter, tab, caps, alt, etc. The only keys which can be removed from a keyboard without compromising UNIX CLI usage are caps lock and "function" (Windows key etc). With the notion that caps lock is already rebinded to escape by Vi(m) users. ------ Aloha This seems to be the opposite direction of what I like out of keyboards. I want more keys - keys I can program to do things - not less keys. ~~~ organsnyder I think (I hope...) this particular keyboard is a satirical commentary on the shrinking keyboards in the mechanical keyboard community. I do agree with you, though—I don't understand the trend toward less keys. ~~~ chipotle_coyote +1, this. Semi-seriously, I appreciate the Pain27 as an art/hacking project and having a bit of fun with the "less keys are always better," but I don't understand the value of making desktop keyboards -- that is, ones that aren't intended to be portable -- ever more "compact." Removing the number keypad makes sense if you don't use it, and if you keep your mouse/trackpad on the right side of your keyboard. But I use the navigation keys pretty regularly; I don't use the function keys that often, but use them often enough that I notice when they're not there. And if portability is the actual concern, well, you probably want something thinner than most mechanical keyboards unless you're _really_ dedicated. I just ordered another mechanical myself (a KBParadise V80 with Matias Quiet Click switches) so I could have one at work and one at home, which I suspect qualifies me as dedicated -- but for a keyboard I'm actually carrying around with me in a bag, I'll take Apple's Magic Keyboard or something from Logitech of comparable size and weight, thanks. So, 60%-and-below keyboard nerds: what is it I'm missing? ~~~ function_seven I have a 60% (I think. Not sure how the percentages are figured). It's also ortholinear, and it gave me a chance to reinvent the layout and what keys should appear. ([https://i.imgur.com/9F0k3zv.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/9F0k3zv.jpg), and [https://imgur.com/yMdkEnP.jpg](https://imgur.com/yMdkEnP.jpg)) I ditched the number pad, the function keys, and the navigation cluster. That freed up room to separate the two halves of the keyboard and put a bunch of symbols in the center. I've always wanted to use hjkl as my arrow keys anyway, now I can do that. Function keys used to be a stretch to get to, and I could never touch type them. Now I can. My next plan is to add another row across the top for macros, and a few more columns in the center to separate my hands even more. The end result will be a keyboard that's almost as large as a standard one, but with no useless crap hanging off the right side :) ------ kugestu I really believe the term "open source" should be avoided if the project is not under an real open source licence: [https://opensource.org/osd](https://opensource.org/osd) E.g. this uses a "Creative Commons BY-NC-ND" license which contains: "NoDerivatives — If you remix, transform, or build upon the material, you may not distribute the modified material". So it restricts some rights that one would usually expect from an "open source" project, which can be confusing ([https://opensource.org/faq#avoid-unapproved- licenses](https://opensource.org/faq#avoid-unapproved-licenses)) Cool project otherwise! ------ kevinmgranger > an easily usable, yet ... utterly unusable I love it. ------ glitchc Why? ~~~ fredley Because if you want a nice functional keyboard you can just buy one. Making this deliberately useless keyboard prevents it from ever being a primarily functional item. This allows you to treat the project entirely as a creative endeavor, and not end up falling down rabbit holes that might otherwise prevent you from completing or enjoying it. ~~~ pavel_lishin > _This allows you to treat the project entirely as a creative endeavor, and > not end up falling down rabbit holes that might otherwise prevent you from > completing or enjoying it._ Watch me! ------ Animats A keyboard with only letters, numbers, and space only has its uses. You can still fill out forms. Some kiosks have keyboards like that. ------ SideburnsOfDoom They don't really say what causes the pain part, which seems a major oversight. I assume it's nothing but sheer tiny size? Maybe you could tap at it with some kind of pointed thimble on the finger. ------ notananthem I like the JD45/JD40 which I use daily, this is annoying ------ WalterGR Do “open” keyboard designs for more traditional keyboards exist? ------ miguelrochefort Why do all keyboard projects use staggered keys? This is asymmetric, more complicated, and less ergonomic. The space bar where both thumbs perform the same action is also ridiculous. ~~~ d4l3k There's a ton of keyboards that have ortholinear or ergonomic layouts. Some people just like the aesthetics of staggered keys over the alternatives. ~~~ miguelrochefort I'm pretty sure these people aren't aware that ortholinear keyboards exist, or know that they're a better design.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Virtual Bare Metal: DevStack Multi Node on EC2 - geertj http://www.ravellosystems.com/blog/virtual-bare-metal-devstack-multi-node-ec2 ====== dkhenry So can I run linux instances on this DevStack cluster that I can run VM's on so I can host docker containers. I feel that two levels of virtualization is not enough for me and would like three or four. ~~~ sysexit I guess you're being sarcastic. What you describe is accurate. In fact, there's one level more because the Linux instance you run is already running as a nested guest. So in your scenario there's 3 hypervisors involved (Amazon Xen, Ravello HVX, KVM) and then your Docker host. More seriously, I am very bullish on Docker myself. But I see it as a supplement rather than a replacement for virtualization. ~~~ ewindisch There is a Docker driver for Nova as well, so it's possible to use OpenStack's Devstack and Nova projects to directly spawn containers. Unfortunately, it abstracts away the Docker API, although you can use Docker-in-Docker if you wish to maintain the ability to use other orchestration tools (which, incidentally is the same model as running containers on VMs) Eventually this should all be manageable by libswarm for various combinations of containers on baremetal, containers on containers, or containers on VMs. ~~~ sysexit Docker on Docker is way cool. The use case we're trying to solve here is a tad different though: it's to provide virtual infrastructure for the "first level" i.e. in the case of Docker the outer container host. For Docker the answer could be EC2, since Docker itself doesn't need VT. However that precludes you from using KVM in any layer below, which in turn means Linux only and fairly simple networking (no multicasting even in VPC, and hence no VXLAN for example) We very much wanted to create something to assist OpenStack developers in developing OpenStack itself. It should be especially useful for projects such as Nova, Neutron and Ironic. ------ jlawer I may be mistaken, but aren't the larger EC2 machines priced fairly linearly with the improved resources? i.e. a machine with 2x the resources typically costs 2x as much? If this is the case then can someone let me know the use case? Is this for better manageability? Or is it to overcommit (i.e. run 3x 4gb ram nodes on 8gb of ram). Other then that I can't see the advantage over dynamically spinning up & down nodes as required directly on AWS. ------ iamondemand Hey, I'm working with the Ravello team. Happy to answer any questions. ~~~ nonane Hi there, I'm struggling to understanding where OpenStack fits in and what features it provides over a stock Ubuntu install or perhaps a CoreOS cluster? Does it provide a consistent platform to deploy apps on? Thanks! ~~~ iamondemand This is more a generic OpenStack question. But the way I look at it, OpenStack is the "fabric" that can be used to create a large, distributed IaaS cloud such as Amazon EC2. People are also using it to create on-premise, private clouds. CoreOS on the other side is very much focused on Linux containers (Docker). ~~~ nonane Thank you very much - this helps.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Fractions, diagrammatically, and Fibonacci's algorithm - graphlinalg http://graphicallinearalgebra.net/2015/11/24/25-fractions-diagrammatically/ ====== brudgers The "boxed set" of episodes, [http://graphicallinearalgebra.net/](http://graphicallinearalgebra.net/) will let you catch up if you are interested.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
HN as a city - barbudorojo Intelligence floats in big cities, we breath it, and for those like me that dwell abroad, HN can be that breath of intelligence.<p>Has any of your post help you with a synergistic approach, new connections, give you a new outlook, fund your business or suggest a successful alternative? I'd like to know any post in HN that has made a profound effect on you.<p>For example, one post about learning and teaching maths linked to Thurston "On proof and Progress in Mathematics" that I consider can impact many young mathematicians. Kremer's model of innovation as a function of density of population means that tools as HN can expand the power of our minds to create and innovate like never before.<p>Going into a meta post, I can imagine that HN may evolve into some kind of network that allows us to get powerful insight. But, before reaching that goal, is necessary to filter and reward those whose creative mind we all want to share.<p>At the minimum, those creative minds that we all want show off should be allowed to move to any country, permanent visa granted, if they are going to share their insight to help boost the economy.<p>Related: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_intelligence_of_cities<p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_city<p>Edit: added link to intellengent city and Spatial intelligence. ====== tippeludo Not life changing, but in a recent post on HN entitled "How do you get to write so well?" I found many usefull suggestions for getting better at writing, becomming good at communication is one of the most important skills to aim for, specially if English is not your mother language.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Harvesting Cb Response Data Leaks - mbesto https://www.directdefense.com/harvesting-cb-response-data-leaks-fun-profit/ ====== majewsky Active discussion: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14967258](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14967258)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Branchless Doom - strangecasts https://github.com/xoreaxeaxeax/movfuscator/tree/master/validation/doom ====== peatmoss Thank heavens for this advancement! I imagine those using Doom to manage system processes ([https://www.cs.unm.edu/~dlchao/flake/doom/chi/chi.html](https://www.cs.unm.edu/~dlchao/flake/doom/chi/chi.html)), will appreciate the security measures implemented in this version. I can only hope these two projects can find common purpose. ~~~ jghn Several years back I convinced a coworker to try and install that. He had a mac and I was running FreeBSD or something and couldn't run it. He'd been running some sort of simulation for several days on that machine. So we fired it up and within about 2-3 minutes he managed to shoot PID 1 or something like that as the machine rebooted. Boss was _not_ happy. ~~~ int0x80 mm usually PID 1 is unkillable even by root AFAIK. ~~~ jghn Actually you're right. He killed the simulation process now that I'm wracking my brain to remember how that actually worked. That then led to us joking about what it'd be like to force-reboot via the killing. The key detail I'll never forget is his "Oh fuck!" face when it happened. ~~~ abofh [https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.htm...](https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.html) Not all signals are blocked by init, if init wants to be signaled :) ------ 51Cards "The mov-only DOOM renders approximately one frame every 7 hours, so playing this version requires somewhat increased patience." Favourite line. ~~~ FLUX-YOU You could play Doom over email with that kind of time ~~~ Yhippa Did a back-of-the-envelope calculation. Assuming you responded promptly it would take around 504 years to finish the game. ------ Legion I look forward to this being a benchmark for testing CPU advancement in the years to come. "It gets 2 frames per hour in Branchless DOOM!" ------ pkilgore Compiler FAQ, in it's entirety, says it all: >Q: Why did you make this? A: I thought it would be funny. ~~~ romwell To the author's credit, it really is. I'm still giggling. ------ iokevins "This is thought to be entirely secure against the Meltdown and Spectre CPU vulnerabilities, which require speculative execution on branch instructions." ~~~ tgb I must not be understanding Meltdown correctly and I know this is a joke, but I thought it was the _malicious_ code that used speculative execution to (indirectly) read unauthorized memory. So in what sense is Branchless Doom secure _against_ Meltdown? ~~~ trentnelson You don't store your plaintext passwords in a modded version of Doom with a kernel scheduler hack to ensure it mostly gets dispatched on the HyperThread core neighboring the one your browser is getting dispatched onto? Amateur. ------ banachtarski My understanding of how some of this works is that to handle jmps, the program uses nojmp to become its own signal handler and inserts a faulty mov to raise a SIGSEGV, mov addresses around, and continue as though it was a successful jmp. And it looks like float and int math is handled with lookup tables. yikes! but impressive! ~~~ monocasa It's cooler than that, IMO. It uses the SIGSEGV to jump back to the start, once per global iteration. Bit most of the normal 'jumps' are encoded by doing both sides of the work, but using a scratch base address for the storage of the 'not taken' side that ends up not contributing to the actual result. ~~~ euyyn So it prevents speculative execution of branches, by speculatively executing them itself? lol ~~~ dfox Structuring code like this actually has it's purpose. Instruction stream executed by massively parallel SIMD systems (prototypically for 80's supercomputers like Connection Machine, but also for GPUs few generations back) actually works in exactly same way. ------ pslam I know it's a joke, but this still branches, via an obscure mechanism of faulting, and mov instructions past the faulting instruction will speculatively execute. ~~~ describrion That's not quite true... the code (essentially) loops over itself infinitely; the only branch is a loop back to the beginning of the program. Since this branch has only one target, it can be a direct jump (as opposed to an indirect one), meaning it would not use the branch trace buffer, and would not cause speculative execution. The author used faulting for branches only to write the program in all mov instructions; if the last 'mov' is replaced with a direct jmp (which, it looks like, can be done with the --no-mov-loop flag to the compiler), no more speculative execution. ~~~ Liquid_Fire > direct jump Another important thing here is that it's an unconditional direct jump. A conditional direct jump can still cause speculative execution (e.g. could be vulnerable to Spectre variant 1). ------ shakna Uses movfuscator, one of the most painful tools when you're faced with reverse engineering. Also one of the most fun, from the other side of the aisle. ~~~ elago Hopefully this isn't too off topic, but could you explain how to even start approaching this from a RE/malware analysis perspective? I'm guessing there's no drag-and-drop de-obfuscate tool like there is for some of the common .NET obfuscators. Do you just rely on behavioral/dynamic methods? ~~~ problems For even the nastiest of obfuscators there are often attempts at deobfuscators... [https://github.com/kirschju/demovfuscator](https://github.com/kirschju/demovfuscator) ------ wasx Finally I can play my favourite game without worrying about how Intel has fucked me! ~~~ craftyguy You could run it on a mid-90's CPU without speculative branching and very likely see better performance. ~~~ NinjaKitten 486 or Pentium 90, what this game was made for. ~~~ craftyguy Yea, either one of those would run the game better than this project/slideshow. ------ Endy This is a more interesting idea than I would have thought at first. I wonder if it could be used to discover whether any frame-perfect exploits still remain unfound in Doom. I know that there are people who have played the game frame-by-frame in order to identify possible advantages, this is an interesting take on the idea. The one concern I have is this: does it change the enemy logic significantly? Will the enemies still react in roughly the same way? I also wonder if it would be at all possible to eventually speed it up (maybe not to actual play speed, but faster) while remaining branchless and free of speculation. It might be interesting to see if research in Doom could provide faster and more secure solutions in the real world. ------ js2 HN discussion of movfuscator: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9751312](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9751312) HN discussion of trapcc: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5261598](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5261598) ------ phillco I was disappointed to find out the screenshot is not a GIF. ~~~ Gigablah You may have to wait 7 hours to confirm that. ~~~ Endy Or right-click and "save image as..." That works too. ------ ninju The mov-only DOOM renders approximately one frame every 7 hours, so playing this version requires somewhat increased patience. hehe ------ IncRnd Well, the compiler works! ------ darawk This is excellent work. ------ tzahola “The mov-only DOOM renders approximately one frame every 7 hours, so playing this version requires somewhat increased patience.” lol ~~~ dawnerd Would be interesting to make this a sort of twitch plays. 7 hour voting windows. ~~~ catmanjan I think it only registers input every 5 or so frames anyway :O	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Turn your Tesla into a CIA-like counter-surveillance tool with this hack - heshiebee https://electrek.co/2019/08/14/tesla-cia-counter-surveillance-tool-hack/ ====== zucked I highly doubt anyone who was worried about being followed enough to use such a thing would be 1.) driving themselves and b.) riding/driving in a Tesla. ~~~ jsiepkes I get what your saying but if your adversary is not the government its a pretty neat solution. ------ whenchamenia Realize if you are on my private property filming, I can detain your equipment until I am satisfied it is deleted. That would mean your whole car, not just your dash cam in this case. Seems a bad idea.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Amazon achieved a market value of $1B,000 - doppp https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/09/amazon-achieved-a-market-value-of-1000000000000/ ====== Tomte Is that notation really in use? It looks very, very strange. ~~~ doppp Hmmm that's weird. Someone edited the title because I submitted it as is.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Metasploit ships single-click exploit for Android - burlyscudd https://community.rapid7.com/community/metasploit/blog/2014/02/12/weekly-metasploit-update ====== burlyscudd Scan a QR code, click the link --- aaaaand attacker has a shell on your phone. ~~~ todb While it's a rather ancient vulnerability (654 days at the least, according to the references), the Metasploit module is new. Metasploit versions of exploits tends to raise the profile of bugs, so hopefully the vendors will pay attention and maybe even come up with a solution for not selling brand new phones with old OSes. (FD: I worked on this module a wee bit)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Asus ROG Zephyrus G14 Review: AMD Ryzen 9 4900HS Tested - neogodless ====== mtmail This seems to be the URL: [https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asus-rog- zephyrus-g14](https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asus-rog-zephyrus-g14) ~~~ neogodless Ugh I don't know how I mess that up between title and url but it seems to happen each time I submit. @dang can you fix if it's worth it?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
SEO advice for a small (non-IT) business? - jgamman ====== jgamman hi, i've started working for a small tech company (catalysis, engineering, R&D; services) and to my horror, i've discovered it's almost impossible to find us on a search engine unless you know our company name. I suspect that a consultant got the website up and running a few years ago and nobody has really fed and watered it since. Compared to the crowd that hangs out here i'm an IT newb but i'm suspicious of hiring a SEO company (especially one that cold calls us!) since i'm not qualified to distinguish quality from snake oil. Can anyone recommend a quality service provider or should we just focus on making the best quality site we can, try and get our customers to link to our homepage and make sure we're indexed? Any help appreciated. ~~~ davidw Do the research and do it yourself. It's not rocket science, and most SEO services seem to be snake oil salesmen to me. Even the honest ones don't have that many tricks to teach you. If they were to sit down with you for an afternoon, that would probably be enough to tell you most of what you need to know. ~~~ jgamman thanks david. ideally this would be the end result, i was just wondering if there was a way to purchase the experience quickly while on the learning curve without getting ripped off. ~~~ davidw You could pay for a day/afternoon. The people out to rip you off will be looking for long term contracts, to milk you, whereas someone on the level ought to be happy to try and impart as much knowledge as possible in a short time frame.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Password Safe - geoka9 https://www.schneier.com/passsafe.html ====== aalbertson really excited to see some progress on this. Hopefully the linux/mac versions come soon!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Can anyone explain to me how you can adjust for gas savings? - originofspecie http://www.teslamotors.com/ Can anyone explain to me how you can adjust for gas savings? ====== byoung2 [http://www.teslamotors.com/true-cost-of- ownership](http://www.teslamotors.com/true-cost-of-ownership) I drive 10,000 miles per year, the average cost of premium is $4.40, and similar luxury cars (Mercedes, BMW, Audi) get about 20mpg. That is $183/mo in gas ($4.40/gal * 833 mi/mo / 20mpg) I won't have to spend. Subtract the $30 or so in electricity I will have to spend, and I save $153. ~~~ originofspecie right but the monthly payments, which is what they are advertising, is still $153 greater. Advertising the opportunity cost rather than just the cost is very misleading.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
CLUI: Building a Graphical Command Line - amasad https://blog.repl.it/clui ====== atoav As somebody who worked professionally with Adobe Premiere I think the criticism of its UI misses the point. Premiere was never meant for hobbyists (reflected by it's actual name: Premiere _Pro_). The only valid point made here is that it is hard to learn for someone who never used any editing software at all. But it certainly isn't slow or "unfocused". That source monitor is on screen for a reason. Keyboard shortcuts will always be faster than moving your mouse around. And by the way: Premiere has a modular interface, so if you hate the clutter or don't need it, you can get rid of it. If you are the person who just wants to edit some stuff together once a year Premiere _Pro_ is not for you. Turns out software interfaces that are meant to be used by people 8 hours a day for weeks at a time follow different design paradigms than stuff made for amateurs. I'd go completely insane if I had to edit a movie on anything simpler tho. I like their TLI ideas, but I am honestly a bit alergic against designers who lack the phantasy of realizing that sometimes a UIs complexity is a reflection of the complexity of the problem it helps to solve in conjunction with the level of control you want to give to the user. Steep learning curves should be avoided — sure — but sometimes they are necessary to shave of that extra second. Something that multiplies if you do it hundred times an hour. Premiere is like vim: not for everybody, but if you wield it in the right way, there is not much that can beat it. ~~~ Cthulhu_ It's why I use intellij instead of e.g. vim at the moment, I can use a lot of the features and they provide a definite advantage over my previous editor, VS Code, which was also pretty densely packed with features (although it has a much cleaner UI). The other question is discoverability. I mean I'm sure vim is incredibly powerful, but none of the features are obvious and you have to trudge through two decades of websites to discover anything. I've been unable to find out (actually I haven't really looked) how to use vim as a software developing tool (with basic features like autocomplete/suggest and error reporting) ~~~ buzzkillington >I've been unable to find out (actually I haven't really looked) how to use vim as a software developing tool (with basic features like autocomplete/suggest and error reporting) Vi is a text editor with an incredibly powerful language to edit text tied to keyboard keys. Emacs is a lisp interpreter that's optimized for text editing. They are not IDEs. ~~~ jpitz What do you consider to be the defining set of features for an IDE, and what do you think Vim and Emacs are lacking from that list? ~~~ mdtusz They are not integrated. That said, vim and emacs can be in a way a component of a DIY IDE - you just need to put the work in and build it yourself. I exclusively use vim with a handful of useful plugins, scripts, and additional CLI tools in other terminal splits. The terminal is my IDE. ~~~ kragen The standard way to use Emacs is as an IDE; you use M-x compile to run the compiler in a window under Emacs and M-x gdb to run the debugger in a window under Emacs, in both cases with hypertext capabilities. These are standard packages included in a default Emacs install, although you may want to bind them to more convenient keys. (I bind [f5] to recompile.) You do not need to run Emacs in a terminal, and copy and paste to and from Emacs (not to mention things like viewing SVGs you're editing) works better if you run it in a window on its own. You do not need to "put the work in and build [an IDE] yourself" if you are using Emacs. (Of course if you're writing programs in Elisp, Emacs is a more tightly integrated IDE, but the success of Emacs, org-mode, Magit, and Amazon notwithstanding, Elisp is not a very good programming language. Also, if you run Emacs in a terminal, you can quite reasonably use it over a low-bandwidth, high-latency ssh -C connection, and it becomes good for remote pair programming, which is not true of running Emacs in VNC. I haven't tried running it in Xpra.) Historically Emacs started up far too slowly and used far too much RAM to be convenient to use it in the way you're describing, as a text editor invoked by a larger IDE; I remember waiting over a minute for a new Emacs process to start up in the mid-90s. Nowadays it might be reasonable, but it still takes almost 4 seconds on this laptop, which I find to be a painfully long wait for opening a file. Also, Emacs's language-agnostic autocomplete M-/ works a lot better if you have a lot of files open in the same Emacs session. Although there are packages that configure Vim to work the same way, it is more common to use Vim in the way you describe, as a component of the IDE rather than an IDE in its own right. And Vim has the great advantage that it starts up instantly, and the advantage or disadvantage that its equivalent of M-/ (^P and ^N) is buffer-scoped, so it doesn't matter if you have more files open. ~~~ sedachv > Nowadays it might be reasonable, but it still takes almost 4 seconds on this > laptop, which I find to be a painfully long wait for opening a file. That is one of the use cases for emacsclient/Emacs server. ~~~ kragen Yes! I should have mentioned that. I mostly use emacsclient as an $EDITOR for git and similar programs in Emacs shell-mode, but you can also use it as a version of Emacs that you can run quickly in a tmux window, if that's what floats your boat! ------ amasad Might be interesting to people here: this blog is hosted on Repl.it on a single repl/container[1] (2GB memory, 2vCPUs[2]) that's also powering IDE functions like editing, collaboration, chat, intellisense, etc. We're able to fix typos and bugs and have it live-deployed as it's serving traffic. I recorded a gif here of what it looks like from the inside: [https://twitter.com/amasad/status/1235742525056380929](https://twitter.com/amasad/status/1235742525056380929) Where is the fabled "hackernews hug of death" if a tiny container can handle the traffic? :-) [1] [https://repl.it/@turbio/replit-blog](https://repl.it/@turbio/replit-blog) [2] [https://repl.it/site/pricing](https://repl.it/site/pricing) ~~~ lonelappde Hug of death is for non static content. And sometimes people unnecessary dynamically generate their static content. ~~~ amasad Unfortunately we fall into that bucket. It's a dynamic app :-) ------ carapace > On a technical level, a CLUI command is conceptually similar to a file path > or URL. Since a complete CLUI command is simply a path down the command > tree, each potential subcommand is like a portion of a file path or URL. > Flags, on the other hand, function like query parameters. CLUI’s resemblance > to URL paths means you can send someone a complete, executable CLUI command > as a URL. They’re mapped 1:1. This is really cool. > Since we have a GraphQL backend, we know all the potential fields and > arguments a client can use. By using an introspection query we generate a > tree of commands/sub-commands that map onto their respective resolve > functions. Now, to add a new admin command all that's needed is a new field > on a GraphQL type. And _that 's_ really _really_ cool. The main thing I see that could be improved would be a clear, simple underlying model or metaphor, a semantic layer that sits between the CLUI and the GraphQL backend, to unify and simplify the various contexts and languages and runtimes and whatever. I've been toying with a UI demo that unifies GUI and CLI through a dialect of the Joy language. Everything you can do at the CLI can be done through the mouse, and everything done through the mouse has a corresponding textual representation as Joy code. It's inspired by Oberon OS and Jef Raskin's "Humane Interface" (among other influences.) I haven't integrated widgets (yet) because you mostly don't need them, mostly. W/O getting into a lot of details, there are no menus nor buttons because any text can be used to activate any command and/or enter any data; there are no forms because the UI metaphor (Joy) is stack-based so you just put values onto the stack; and so on. ~~~ asiachick Autodesk Maya has always been both CLI and GUI based. Every GUI interaction generates a visible CLI command you could have typed to accomplish the same thing. It’s been the way since PowerAnimator in the 90s ~~~ kragen I think AutoCAD has been this way for a long time too. The first version I used was 2.14K+ADE; you could invoke any operation from the keyboard (and often had to) but I don't remember if selecting from menus with the mouse would generate the CLI command. In later versions of AutoCAD it did. ~~~ donaldihunter Yep, automating CSG, transforms etc. from the command line in AutoCAD was very powerful. I fondly remember a Stonehenge 3D model project from school. ~~~ kragen I don't think it was possible to automate anything in 2.14K+ADE (that was before AutoLISP), and its 3-D support was almost nil, let alone CSG. ------ wrigby The discoverability aspect of this reminds me quite a bit of working on a Cisco IOS command line. At any point while typing a command, you can mash the ? key, and the shell will print out a list of acceptable inputs given what you've already typed (this example stolen directly from Cisco's docs[1]): Router# configure ? memory Configure from NV memory network Configure from a TFTP network host overwrite-network Overwrite NV memory from TFTP network host terminal Configure from the terminal <cr> It's really quite a great experience. 1: [https://www.cisco.com/en/US/docs/general/Test/dwerblo/broken...](https://www.cisco.com/en/US/docs/general/Test/dwerblo/broken_guide/cli.pdf) ~~~ macintux I recall working on a Pix firewall, which IIRC was a product Cisco acquired from someone else and had something IOS-like, and a true Cisco IOS router more or less simultaneously. The difference in usability between the two was quite notable, exactly for that reason. ------ highmastdon This reminds me of what fish [1] (friendly interactive shell) brings for me. Together with z for directory jumping [2] and fzf for interactive lists [3] there's really no need for a "finder" or "explorer". Aside from it I've run into Xiki [4] that seems to bridge the gap on multiple levels between GUI and CLI. GUI to bring the discoverability and CLI to keep it scalable. [1] [https://fishshell.com/](https://fishshell.com/) [2] [https://github.com/jethrokuan/z](https://github.com/jethrokuan/z) [3] [https://github.com/jethrokuan/fzf](https://github.com/jethrokuan/fzf) [4] [https://xiki.org/](https://xiki.org/) ------ Someone Macintosh Programmer’s Workshop had something similar in 1986 ([http://mirror.informatimago.com/next/developer.apple.com/too...](http://mirror.informatimago.com/next/developer.apple.com/tools/mpw- tools/commandref/commando.html)). It was incredibly useful. Apple’s first Unix copied that in 1988 ([http://toastytech.com/guis/aux3.html](http://toastytech.com/guis/aux3.html)) Powershell has ‘Show-Command’ which also is similar ([https://docs.microsoft.com/en- us/powershell/module/microsoft...](https://docs.microsoft.com/en- us/powershell/module/microsoft.powershell.utility/show- command?view=powershell-7)) I think PowerShell generates the GUI, while MPW commando had human-designed dialogs (and, for complex commands such as compilers, sub-dialogs) I think this is worth copying in modern Unixes. Those GUIs make it way easier to use rarely used flags than man pages. ~~~ uxamanda Wow, Commando looks really similar to the Kui tool mentioned in a sibling comment [0]. Would you agree? Or was Commando only used for options / an alternate to flags? [0] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22500032](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22500032) ~~~ Someone Commando didn’t do graphical output. It was a tool to help compose a command line. Command output went to the terminal, or, in MPW, into the file being edited (Mac OS didn’t have a terminal) ~~~ uxamanda Ah, I see, input vs output. Could see both being useful at the same time. ------ satya71 This just reminded me of Emacs. There's not a whole lot of menus. All the available commands (also variables and values) can be searched and autocompleted. The initial hump is hard to get over, but after that things are so discoverable and extensible it's a pleasure. I recently switched to VS Code for creature comforts that come from a much large ecosystem and using more modern OS affordances. VS Code gets close but not quite as pleasant as Emacs. ~~~ eequah9L I wish LibreOffice, GIMP etc. had an M-x way of finding the commands, and a describe-function to ask what exactly a given command is doing. Or C-h b way of sifting through keyboard shortcuts, in just another buffer with search and everything. ~~~ chootisk GIMP has something similar, triggered by pressing /. I discovered it way too late, but I haven't touched a menu ever since. Libreoffice has a feature request for such a function [1]. [1]: [https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91874](https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91874) ~~~ eequah9L Wow, thank you! ------ p_l Congratulations to repl.io team on rediscovering Symbolics Lisp Machine's Dynamic Windows / Common Lisp Interface Manager's _presentation_ and _listener_ systems! Not being sarcastic, even - it's a pretty powerful approach that deserves better, unfortunately distribution of knowledge in Computing Science, especially historical knowledge if you never encountered it yourself, is pretty hard. ~~~ amasad That's interesting -- thanks for sharing! I try to be as erudite in computer history as possible but I still somehow missed this. I pay homage to the Lisp community w/r/t programming interfaces in this post: [https://amasad.me/disintegrated](https://amasad.me/disintegrated) ~~~ hhdave Genera on the Lisp Machine is very much an embodiment of this graphical command line (or rather just command) user interface. There's quite a lot to it. CLIM (and the open source McCLIM) is the current realisation of this. There's some documentation about 'Commands' in CLIM II here for example: [http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lwu41/climuser/GUID_1...](http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lwu41/climuser/GUID_194.HTM#HEADING194-0) Commands are first class objects which live in command tables and which CLIM can look at to generate bits of UI and allow parameters to be specified. Central to this in CLIM is the idea of presentations - where domain objects are 'presented' onto the screen and the link to the domain object is maintained. That way you can invoke a command on that object in various ways, for example you can type a command name and then click a presented object which is acceptable as a parameter. The Symbolics S-packages used these concepts to make (I presume) powerful 3d modelling programs back in the day (I haven't used them): [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV5obrYaogU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV5obrYaogU) \- sorry for the poor video quality. [https://twitter.com/rainerjoswig?lang=en](https://twitter.com/rainerjoswig?lang=en) (lispm on here) sometimes posts interesting things about Genera ------ dreary_dugong While I agree wholeheartedly with the stated goals, I do worry that the CLUI isn't quite as perfect s solution as it's implied to be. The CLUI is listed as having all of the upsides of both GUI and CLI but none of the downsides of either, but I feel it's more like halfway on everything. It's /more/ approachable than a CLI, but still /less/ approachable than a GUI and this goes for most of the categories listed. It's still an interesting idea but it strikes me as a bit risky. At what point does less approachable become too unapproachable? I fear CLUI may have accidentally gained many of the downsides at the same time as mere pieces of the upsides ~~~ airstrike I agree. It feels like an improvement over the very limited interaction from a plain CLI, but it isn't foolproof. The user still needs to know e.g. whether the right way to set an user's role is through 'admin roles' or 'admin user' ~~~ tangert replit designer here - yes, totally agree. the current implementation definitely is not foolproof, but it's just the start. ideally it will handle more unstructured commands in the future! ~~~ airstrike For the avoidance of doubt: I think this is awesome! Keep up the good work! ~~~ tangert thank you :) ------ hawaiian Bash already has autocomplete and there are shells with richer feature sets. What I would like to see is something like CLUI to be integrated with an IDE or a productivity tool like Adobe Photoshop. PyCharm/JetBrains already embraces the keyboard with double-Shift => Search Everywhere, and other similar shortcuts. Similarly, Photoshop would benefit from keyboard interaction for common tasks. We already have single-pixel nudge actions via the arrow keys, but a CLI prompt you could conjure up and type into would be a game changer for actions that require repetition and precision. That is, rather than bringing GUI to the CLI, bring CLI to the GUI. ~~~ ash > Bash already has autocomplete What kind of autocomplete does bash have? Do I need to enable it? I've just tried bash 5.0.16. I don't see any. For example, I've typed `pw`, but `pwd` was not suggested to me. (I know there's Tab-completion, this is _not_ what I'm talking about. I'm looking for automatic completion. Similar to Google's search suggestions and CLUI demo.) ~~~ andai I think fish has that? ~~~ ash Thanks! Fish is close, but not there yet. It provides only a _single_ autocomplete suggestion. I had to press Tab to get a list of suggestions. So: bash: no auto suggestion at all, Tab twice to see a list fish: shows single auto suggestion, Tab once to get a list zsh + zsh-autosuggestions: looks similar to fish behaviour Is there some combination of shell/plugin/terminal that provides _multiple_ auto suggestions? ------ boilerupnc Another great project in this space is Kui[1] - a framework for graphical terminals. It gives a hybrid command-line/UI development experience for cloud- native development. [1] [https://github.com/IBM/kui](https://github.com/IBM/kui) ~~~ moudy nice. I've seen this with markdown previews but makes total sense to generalize ------ dangoor This is cool, and it's great to see you work on this (and thanks for open sourcing!) One more bit of prior art that might be interesting to you: I worked on the Mozilla Bespin project a long time ago with Joe Walker. Joe was also really big on the command line idea for much the same reason and created [GCLI]([https://github.com/joewalker/gcli/blob/master/docs/index.md](https://github.com/joewalker/gcli/blob/master/docs/index.md)). GCLI ultimately landed in Firefox Developer Tools, but I don't think it's in the current shipping version. Funnily enough, I just found a video on YouTube of me demoing the command line in Firefox Dev Tools: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwOwJ1_JaKE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwOwJ1_JaKE) The state of the art in web UIs has definitely moved forward, and I'm really happy to see more experimentation with graphical command lines. ~~~ uxamanda This is great! Would love to hear more about your experience working on it if you are interested in sharing – did you notice any particular tasks where this type of interaction shined? My dream would be to have something like built into an IDE so I could save edits directly. ~~~ dangoor As features go, this didn't prove to be super successful (it's no longer shipping with Firefox). I do still think it's a valuable interaction style for being able to activate less-frequently-used features all from the keyboard. It's possible that the fact that web browsers _also_ have the JS Console is just too much, because the JS Console has a command line that people are familiar with. The interaction model is very different, though. GCLI made it quick to type commands, whereas the JS console requires valid JS. ~~~ uxamanda Interesting, I could see how that could be confusing. ------ dreamcompiler This description sounds very much like CLIM, which was a graphical, clickable CLI originally designed in the early 80s for Lisp machines. (CLIM is much more than that, but building a graphical CLI is one of the things that's easy with CLIM.) [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp_Interface_Manage...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp_Interface_Manager) ------ fit2rule I regularly use a pretty GUI-intense program, called REAPER, for editing digital audio. Its a very powerful application, full of amazing features and powerful yet simple tools. Its a bit daunting at first, and can be overwhelming if you don't really have the patience to dig into it and find where everything is, in terms of grouped functionality. However, one key thing made learning to use REAPER smooth as butter - the '?' key. This shows the "Action List", which is a list of all the things you can do in REAPER, in a text list .. so I can quickly type '?' \- then 'section' and find all the actions related to sections. VERY useful, and quite a great way to explore the periphery of features I would otherwise not have discovered. In fact, its the very first thing I teach anyone I'm introducing to REAPER, that they should use. I'd say, without this "text-based UI", the rest of the program wouldn't be nearly as accessible. A lot of that has to do with the fact that the REAPER developer seems to have a Power > Eye-candy attitude about the UI design - its clean, minimal, and functional when you first get started - but the UI is also fully tweak-able such that once you start getting productive with it, you find ways to make the GUI really shine (track colours, Layout customisations, etc.) Anyway, I think its pretty interesting that the entire UI is accessible from the text-based '?' Action list query... I wish more programs would adopt this abstraction. ------ InfinityByTen I wouldn't take this article to be a be all, end all. It's quite thought provoking for me personally. The reason I switched from bash to zsh was simply the UI like interface in path completion with OhMyZsh. The reason sublime works quite well for me is that there are tabs that I love to move around and see at the same time and I like the visual feedback of moving things around and switching contexts. But if I want to do something quickly.. I can easily find the command for from a simple keyboard shortcut. I think this idea can be refined further and made more and more robust and is a design pattern in the right direction. With more and more percentage of the population heading in coding-friendly direction I see this as a very viable next step. ------ ratel I think it is an interesting idea that needs some further exploration. I do see some problems with it that were not addressed. The way the demos are setup are by definition an NP!=P problem. It is easy to verify you found the right command, but may be fiendishly difficult to navigate the tree to get there. Menus with sub-menus having sub-menus at least makes it visually clear which paths you have not taken and allow retracing your steps. Something akin to Ctrl-R in shells may be needed to allow you to type certain keywords to find all possible actions. Options and parameters are not part of a decision tree as they don't specify a logical action that will follow, they just change the action. Those parameters need evaluating the entire progress in the tree to be able to suggest a next available parameter, option and action. Try it with something like ffmpeg. Modelling this to work in a CLUI will evolve into a hard problem very quickly. The more actions, options, parameters I add as a user the more important it becomes that I can backtrack and correct mistakes. Corrections may or may not have consequences for the position in the tree I already choose. Starting over even from there might not be the right solution in terms of usability if the correction does not necessitate it. ------ smitty1e One interface that reeks of genius is Magit[1] Taking a sprawling interface like that of git and making it work in a console window in Emacs is an idea that bears repetition across other tools, e.g. tar. Would I'd the time to work on such. [1] [https://magit.vc/](https://magit.vc/) ~~~ sullyj3 Is there anything similar that doesn't require me to use Emacs? ~~~ Myrmornis I sort of want to question what you mean exactly by "use Emacs"? Emacs is a lisp environment / UI framework for application development. So in principle saying you don't want to use an application implemented in Emacs is like saying you don't want to use an application implemented in Electron. I'm only 85% serious there, obviously Emacs has a certain amount of cruft that Electron I assume does not. You could start an emacs process just in order to use Magit -- you wouldn't have to use it for anything else. However, I totally understand that you might well not want to mess about configuring emacs to load magit and working out how to start it etc. How about these? [https://github.com/vlandeiro/magit- docker](https://github.com/vlandeiro/magit-docker) [https://github.com/akirak/nix-magit](https://github.com/akirak/nix-magit) ~~~ omaranto There are some people who refuse to use applications implemented with Electron. ------ screenbeard I was with you for the first half, until the demo of the command completion with clickable dropdown options and thought it looked just like the nested menus you're trying to kill. The difference is a slightly less cluttered interface, but for someone who knows what they're looking at is a menu all that different than selecting a command that gives a subset of followup commands on a single line? ~~~ Sammi The article addresses this: "Because the tree is hierarchical, you might think that it actually resembles a large dropdown menu. The difference is that search is built directly into its navigation, not just pointing and clicking. One clear improvement that could be made is being able to search for any subcommand without having to specify its parent command first. That way you can access any deeply nested information instantly, similar to spotlight search." ------ time4tea AutoCAD amongst other software has been doing this for about 25+ years, I think. Clicky-clicky if you want, or just type in the command, same output. IntelliJ also, more recently, with its actions input. ~~~ jfoucher I absolutely loved autocad for this. One hand on the keyboard, one on the mouse is an easy way to double your productivity. The speed at which you could draw things was amazing. I had a custom alias file with most commonly used shortcuts and the enter key was bound to right click which removed the need to move your left hand over the keyboard. This was in the 2000. Sadly the more recent versions I have tried make this harder to do. If I hadn’t switched career I’d still be using autocad 2000 ! ~~~ TheSpiceIsLife I use DraftSight with AutoHotkey and a Razer Naga, makes CAD work very swift! ------ lqs469 This idea is so great, really like it. But I don’t know how practical it is. From the article, It improves the UI and interaction of the CLI, "That means that images, gifs, video, graphs, interactive diagrams, buttons, and forms should be able to integrate directly into the CLI experience." which may improve the user experience, But the basic mode of interaction of CLI doesn't change. The CLI experience is still not intuitive. Maybe CLI will work well for simple scenarios, but I don't know if it is a good choice for the complex circumstances. The complex interaction and graphical interface display of some industrial scenes may not be well expressed by the CLI, Even they cannot interact only through the keyboard. So I worry that CLUI will face a situation where complex circumstances are too much to handle and simple scenarios are unnecessary. Actually, there has been some CLI tool through shortcuts and custom instruction to do these things (autocomplete, fuzzy-search, tips or guidelines) with text way, They also did well. ~~~ silentwanderer I think the main value of CLUI is that it flattens the learning curve for users who don't normally use the terminal, not that it scales all the way from new users to experienced ones. ~~~ lqs469 Completely agree. ------ elagost It's been more than 5 years since I've used AutoCAD or other AutoDesk professional design software, but it has this. There's a command line that interfaces very well with its GUI. You can draw shapes entirely in the command line, or you can use it to help you place a second point in a line, for example. ------ pault The help > search menu is the thing I miss the most from Mac OS since I switched to windows. Especially in programs like Photoshop where there are dozens of nested dropdowns, hitting cmd + ?, typing a few characters, and hitting enter is such a huge boost to productivity when you haven't memorized all of the keyboard shortcuts, and it even works on menu items that don't have a shortcut. The Microsoft office suite has this functionality as well, and I really wish they would integrate it at the system level like Mac OS does. ~~~ uxamanda Agreed, love this feature and use it often. I wish it saved the last few searches to quickly access commonly searched items. ------ lapinot I really like the general idea of bridging the gap between graphical and text- based interfaces, abstracting away the differences and be able to use a mixture of both. In the realm of interactive programming (eg heavily ide assisted), people with some functional and statically typed programming background would be interested in this magnificent talk about idris2: [Edwin Brady - Idris 2 - Type-driven Development of Idris] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRq2NgeFcO0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRq2NgeFcO0) ------ 0xCMP Using an iPad has inspired me to rethink things like terminal and CLUI is very close to ideas I’ve been wanting for work on for a long time. My idea originally came from using ssh on my iPad and thinking it would be cool if more native controls were used over RPC instead of text to display what was happening on the server. Then I could more easily navigate the responses and maybe even if there was more intelligent autocomplete which a UI on iOS could take advantage of. Or maybe interactive confirmations and stuff (similar to what was Demo’d). And also then provide an easy way to edit files using either a remote editor or a way to sync changes being done in a local editor. Kind of how vscode seems to do it (e.g. a remote service handling the work) The one thing a system like I’m describing would still need is the ability to switch from this rich interface back to the terminal when using things like tmux, curses, or vim/emacs because obviously those things still work well. But the cool thing was realizing that this would also be great on the desktop. Looked into some terminals like Hyper thinking maybe I could hack those up to get a proof of concept for myself, but can’t find the time. And obviously it wouldn’t work for the iPad where I really wanted it. ------ johnlorentzson This reminds me a bit of the Dynamic Lisp Listener from Symbolics Genera-based Lisp machines. ------ Razengan The examples look really cool. I'd like to add a sort of wish I have for such a "smart CLI": Being able to preview the effect of the command(s) you're currently typing, like the files/directories it's going to modify, whether it's going to change something for the entire system or specific users. Something like that would lower the intimidation factor for beginners even further. ------ tenaciousDaniel This is really cool. I'm actually building a coding language for UI designers, and a UI like this would be super helpful. ~~~ moudy that sounds interesting. do you have anything you can share? ~~~ tenaciousDaniel Not yet, but hopefully I'll have something simple to show in the next few months. ------ momokoko So, upterm[0] / hyper-autocomplete[1]? [0] [https://github.com/railsware/upterm](https://github.com/railsware/upterm) [1] [https://github.com/Inlustra/hyper- autocomplete](https://github.com/Inlustra/hyper-autocomplete) ------ iovrthoughtthis This is great and a very powerful technique. Are there any things like this that provide similar interfaces for OSs? ~~~ khimaros Requires a bit of initial setup, but possible it's what you're looking for: [https://github.com/denisidoro/navi](https://github.com/denisidoro/navi) Also, at least some of the scaffolding for CLUI seems to be available at [https://github.com/replit/clui](https://github.com/replit/clui) ------ roryrjb I don't agree that GUIs are a replacement for the CLI. Yes in the past that is all we had, but really they are completely different and should be considered in parallel. CLIs were never really meant for non-technical users though as far as I'm aware, or at least the end user was already expected to have some kind of established context. I'm not really against exploration in this area but I disagree that CLIs are flawed. I'm biased of course, excuse me while I get back to my UNIX/xterm/tmux/vim development environment. EDIT: I would like to point out that I've only been in the industry for 6/7 years so it's not like I started my career where this established environment was the only choice. ------ Waterluvian This might be what they're getting at. Discoverability with the basic Python repl is bad. You can use help and dir and both are clunky. But install ipython and you're off to the races with autocomplete menus you can arrow key through. ~~~ mixmastamyk ptpython is great at that also and probably easier to grok at first. The fish shell does much of this as well but is not as attractive. ------ l0b0 Interesting idea. I expect it would be a hell of a lot more impactful if the demo used some well-known commands like `tar`, `find` or `grep`, though, all of which have absolutely _heaps_ of options and complex command structures. ------ zeveb They've got some great ideas and insight here. The thing is, there already _is_ a wonderful two-dimensional, general-purpose, interactive terminal/graphic interface: it's Emacs. And it really is awesome! I think this is a corollary to Greenspun's Tenth Rule ('Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an _ad hoc_ , informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp'): any sufficiently powerful UI will be an ad-hoc, inextensible, inconsistent, weaker version of Emacs. ------ lonelappde They mock standard OS tree menus and then advertise their...tree menus, and justify it by saying theirs have search, ignoring that OS tree menus also have search ------ zenocon Seems to be in line with my fav Postgres tool pgcli: [https://www.pgcli.com/](https://www.pgcli.com/) ------ talkingtab Cool thinking. And thought provoking. I find myself increasingly being annoyed by GUI's with their rich interfaces. An interesting project is lazygit which uses gocui. For me it is useful and appealing alternative to the command line git. With each pane you press a meta key to get list of commands for the pane, and it would be interesting to see a mash up with replit somehow. ------ miki123211 This is what Microsoft Office has been doing for the past few years. For those unfamiliar, modern Office versions use ribbons instead of menus. Ribbons have a few tabs like home, layout etc. The tabs change depending on what object you're interacting with, so i.e. if you're editing a pivot table in Excel, you get two new tabs for working with pivot tables. That means you only see the options that are actually relevant to you. Each tab has buttons separated into groups. So, there might be a "alignment" group with "left", "center", "right" and "justify" inside. Most buttons have detailed descriptions of what they do and multi-layered, visible keyboard shortcuts that activate them quickly. Some even have an additional drop down for more options, so i.e. the "view" button in Access might switch you between the two most common views when clicked, but you can expand it and select a different view if need be. The latest office versions also have a search field that allows you to find any command, no matter what tab it is in. It has autocomplete, so typing piv usually shows you "pivot table" as one of the first suggestions. I use Excel and Access pretty often, and do some moderately complex things with them, but I almost don't use the traditional ribbon at all. I use shortcuts for the commands I need very often, and search for the rest. If I don't know how something is called, I go through the commands on the relevant tabs and find it eventually. I think this kind of UI scales pretty well. MS Office apps are pretty complicated and packed with features, especially the pro versions, but I think that UI paradigm is pretty scalable and nice for users. ~~~ s_gourichon What follows is only partly related to the overall conversation, rather an answer to the ribbon episode. The ribbon in MS Office came along roughly at the same time as 16:9 and 16:10 screens (on laptops in my memories anyway). Already on a 4:3 screen, WYSIWYG editing wastes much space on left and right of the screen, to show paper margins and page limits. And that goddamned ribbon eats up all the top of the screen, making you see only a limited band of what you could see on that very screen. Had no one the idea to make the ribbon a vertical tool bar on the left or right, like in Photoshop/Gimp and a number of other tools? Such a feeling of UI failure at the time. At that moment my computers were already all running Linux anyway, so I've never used it more than a few times on a coworker's machine. Now I no longer use WYSIWYG software. Text editing with the WYSIWYG paradigm feels superficially seducing, until you realize it actually hides the actual document content. How many times has Word shown some items in a bullet list with a different size without any visible reason ? Or in Google docs one bullet horizontally misaligned? Why? No one knows. When editing text, seeing how the final document would look like is not that important. It's more important to know the state of what you're editing. With markdown or asciidoc what you see it what your document actually contains. On top of that, WYSIWIG assumes that there is one final document appearance, which is just not true for a digital document in a digital world that could be rendered countless ways in different styles (unless your workflow targets documents in try-to-mimick-paper-form, like PDF, until that changes). ------ gitgud > _" On a technical level, a CLUI command is conceptually similar to a file > path or URL. Since a complete CLUI command is simply a path down the command > tree, each potential subcommand is like a portion of a file path or URL."_ Sounds like walking the tree of a REST api... potential CLUI framework for REST? ------ nojvek Bashing premier pro is a low blow. It’s a very powerful tool that really can’t be replicated in Cli. Even using ffmpeg CLI is a painful experience. That being said code completion, contextual help and form-ish guis give a better user experience. The most used UI element is a button and thereafter is the search input. ------ microcolonel Most of the tools to do this exist in ordinary terminal emulators, with ordinary shells. This would be interesting as an extension for Fish or similar. AFAIK (somewhat) typed auto-complete information is already available for a lot of commands. ------ tie_ The article describes pretty much what SAWS has implemented - [https://github.com/donnemartin/saws](https://github.com/donnemartin/saws) (mad props to ~donnemartin for the implementation!) ------ thanatropism Most of this research program is already realized in Windows 10, where you press the Win key and get universal search through programs, settings and files. (And unwanted Bing search results that open in Edge, but that’s Something else) ~~~ lonelappde Totally different. That only works for finding programs, not running commands in them. Windows is 15+ years behind Mac in simply implementing menu search inside programs. ------ perl4ever I never used it a great deal, but I had the impression that MPW (Macintosh Programmers' Workshop) was an evolution of the command line that unfortunately didn't really catch on. ------ sedatk With the prevalence of search-driven interactions and increasing popularity of GUIfying the CLI, I feel like we are somehow converging to Oberon. I wonder how that will look like. ------ dharmatech Presentation-based UI for PowerShell: [https://github.com/dharmatech/PsReplWpf](https://github.com/dharmatech/PsReplWpf) ------ js2sj The combination of this and a ncursor app framework is much better than GUI application. Unfortunately, I don't find an active great ncursor app framework. ------ _ZeD_ so it's like bpython ([https://bpython-interpreter.org/](https://bpython- interpreter.org/))? ------ jancsika Part 1 of 4721: A GUI program in a domain that usually strains all a computer's resources, probably ought to perform within soft realtime constraints, and is aimed at professionals is complicated. Part 2 of 4721: Let us now persuade you there is a better way by demo'ing a souped-up terminal window that helps non-specialist Unix enthusiasts enter a record into a database. _???_ Part 4721 of 4721: As we have clearly shown, our realtime video-editing CLUI application is more approachable, discoverable, interactive, and scalable than Adobe Premiere. ------ syrusakbary This is awesome! <3 I think the technique of creating UI forms based on GraphQL metadata is going to be key for building the admin tools of the future. ------ MR4D They should name the shell CLASH.... for Command Line Again SHell I think the idea they have is awesome. Managing servers with this would be a dream! ------ flyinglizard Last year I made a bulk photo management software using this exact UI pattern. It’s very effective. ------ megapatch This is already implemented, modern bash offers completion and suggestions, which look exactly like shown (text only though) when you press Tab. This includes parameters, flags (with documentation), context (eg files in current directory). Autocomplete is available for most commands on modern Linux installations. ~~~ eequah9L Bash is apparently capable of showing the completions with explanations, however there doesn't seem to be a de facto standard way of doing it. Or did I miss something? Are there like libraries to help out with this, so that the help text is shown consistently? But yeah, agreed that pursuing this path would be less effort and get 90% of the way to the goal. ------ timka How come noone mentioned Aza Raskin's Ubiquity? This is HN after all! ------ maerF0x0 someone could improve the scalability of windows by adding better scripting options. Like how can I open 10k windows , programatically change a form input and then click the submit button? Selenium comes to mind.. ------ 29athrowaway I use Zenity to create interactive graphical dialogs from shell scripts. ------ longtermd Implementing a working and fast CLUI (as a search feature) was one of the easiest ways to get a real WOW-effect from our customers. /founder here think of: the website (and search results) updates in realtime with every letter you type ------ m4r35n357 It isn't a command line "interface", it is a command line "interpreter". If you don't know this you have lost at the start. I'll stick to my shell, thanks! ------ _pmf_ Matlab, Mathematica et. al. are used by tens of thousands of people daily. You have several decades of catch up to get anything resembling feature parity. ------ hereisdx Hey! I wrote this command in a GUI CLI! ------ mayli So, did you ever heard the /etc/bash_completion? ------ justlexi93 Unless I'm missing something this seems to just be a blog post about a prototype of an idea, and not something you can actually use. ~~~ reportgunner Yeah also they are talking about GraphQL backend so I suppose it's just a gimmick you put on your website and not an _actual_ CLI. ------ ailideex I am quite annoyed with text user interfaces, especially in lui of a proper CLI. On two occasions that I asked people to make a CLI for something and then they made some abomination that can't be used from a script but needs to be used interactively.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Things I Learned from World of Warcraft - JabavuAdams http://johnaugust.com/archives/2007/seven-things-warcraft ====== patio11 Seven Things I Learned From WoW (The Business): 1) Put _obsessive_ attention into making the first five minutes of use of your product awesome. It is the five minutes people are most likely to see. It is also a gate through which all subsequent use of your product must pass. (Seriously, folks, if you value conversion optimization, I want you to play five minutes of WoW and five minutes of any other MMORPG, and take notes on what happens. WoW will drag you around by the nose. WoW will point you in the direction of the next thing to do. WoW _will_ show you success in those five minutes, even if you're terrible at what you're doing. We should all aspire to making products that nail those first five minutes as much as WoW does.) 2) Do not devote disproportionate developer resources to content/systems which the majority of the user base will not interact with. (It took them years to learn this, but they eventually go around to it.) 3) Make it simple. Then, make it simpler. WoW is one of the most complicated pieces of engineering the world has ever known, but six year olds can pick up and play it. 4) People will put up with any amount of drudgery if you give them small, frequent, random rewards for doing so. This is in fact so powerful I'm kind of scared of doing it. 5) If people are bringing their boyfriends into your product so that they can spend more time together, that is probably a good sign you have reached mass market success. 6) Monthly. Billing. Minor discounts for cashflow in advance. 7) High quality visual design can be made rot-proof by using iconic representations, bright colors, and timeless aesthetics. If you chase the leading edge of graphical sophistication, on the other hand, three years from now plan on doing a total graphical rip-out or you'll look dated. ~~~ reitzensteinm As a game developer, I'd argue that thinking along the lines of #2 is very dangerous. Great games have a ton of subtle touches and content that only a small percentage of players will appreciate. The trick is that each player will notice a completely different set of features/content, and it makes them really happy when it feels like the developers went out of their way to polish some little bit of the game. Think of Super Mario Brothers, one of the best selling games of all time. There are a stunning amount of hidden areas, tricks etc (even using an emulator with save+load, and a guide, it's not easy to explore the entire game world), but this is very closely related to how stunning the game world felt (especially for the time). An average player may only come across 10-20 secrets in the game, out of hundreds, but each time they'll have that warm fuzzy feeling where they are thinking, wow, they went to all the trouble to put this here? Another good example is No One Lives Forever. They did a TON of funny lines with the guards talking to each other and notes that were left around (eg a note to employees saying no fornicating in the evil death ray storage facility). The chance of picking up on each of those was low, say around 10%, but since there were hundreds the game world, each player will have 20-30 moments where they were exploring some back room and they found something cool, which gave the game world immense amounts of character. If they instead made 20-30 moments and forced the players through them linearly, it would have felt cheap. I'd also like to mention that, unlike many forms of software, it IS actually a requirement that game developers have fun making the games they play, because otherwise making the game itself fun is pretty much impossible. I don't think it's a coincidence that the developers of Diablo 2 took the time to put in the cow level, which most people never see, and spent a huge amount of resources tweaking leveling up for characters all the way up to level 90+, at the same time that they made such a fantastic game for the average player. If they made the game specifically for the average player, I think a lot of that magic that goes into development would have been lost, and paradoxically the game wouldn't have been as fun for anyone. Of course you have to be somewhat rational about where you spend your development resources, but if you try to make sure that the majority of the players see the majority of the content, it's so easy to make a sterile game. And if you are often completely irrational about where you spend your time in the name of being artistic, it's surprisingly easy to make a game that is actually fun and gets attention. The difference in sales between the former and the latter, without a marketing plan B, will be orders of magnitude. (I agree with the rest of your post) ~~~ patio11 WoW was spending literally tens of millions of dollars on content seen by a fraction of a percent of its player base. That was unjustifiably bad. That it continued for quite some time was a problem of the dev team culture and also, probably, a symptom that they did not have good metrics. (I have been there, done that, and got the T-shirt. Not to the tune of tens of millions but I've certainly frittered away man months on things seen by less than .1% of customers and, even worse, 0% of trial users.) ~~~ reitzensteinm It does sound like they took it too far (I've not played WoW after losing a significant percentage of my time as a teenager to Diablo 2). But I was talking about the general rule. I'd say that the opposite mistake is much more common amongst game developers, and it's a big reason why so many crappy games are released. Certainly 0.1% of customers is too low. But I wouldn't call 1% too low - many of the best games ever made include lots of 1% content. And I think that's no coincidence - the mindset that results in developers putting 1% content into a game also results in a fun core game. 1% content only happens when developers care a lot about the game. I should clarify that by 1% content I mean a different 1% of the audience will see each piece of content. ------ hristov One thing I learned from playing Diablo 2: It is a real waste of time. Having learned this important lesson I never played WoW, thank god. ~~~ Proleps A lot of people think playing wow is a complete wast of time. But when you ask them what they do all day, they just watch television. ~~~ rtp Not practicing what you preach doesn't say much about the truth of what you're preaching. ~~~ ZachPruckowski I'm not sure if that applies here. Most people "waste" a certain amount of their week on downtime, and that's probably healthy for them. Whereas in ages past that was checkers at the general store or a bard's stories at dinner or listening to the radio, today it's TV and video games. A person who watches 40 hours of TV a week for fun is in just as much trouble as a guy who plays WoW or EVE for 40 hours a week. ------ skolor I'm always a little confused about how much people love to bash WoW, and call it such a waste of time. Sure, there are people who throw away massive amounts of time into the game, but there are plenty of other people who play a reasonable amount. I spend 2 evenings a week raiding, with 1-2 hours throughout the week (plus another hour or two on the weekends, when I can) doing other things. Twice a week, a group of 10 friends get together, log onto WoW and a Ventrilo server, and mess around for a few hours. I think of it a lot like a bowling/poker night for some guys, except you're significantly more likely to invite a new, potentially interesting person to a WoW raid than you are to your weekly game. Honestly, I find the whole "If it does not have direct monetary value, or somehow advance my career/list of contacts, it isn't worth doing" stance that many people take rather disturbing. No, playing WoW doesn't directly benefit me, but the indirect benefits have been pretty awesome. I've kept in touch with several old friends I otherwise wouldn't have, met a lot of interesting people, and it gives me something I can talk about with at least 10% of the population. And that's all on top of just playing a well designed, pretty fun game. ------ syncerr The trouble is that no matter how much accomplishment I've seen in life (college, wife, job), I still miss playing - a lot. ~~~ zackattack maybe you should do something else instead of your wife and job. ~~~ roel_v Or maybe he should do his wife more. ------ bretpiatt Please read the post before making a comment on what you don't like about the game. He just used WoW examples to contrast with life lessons. The #1 lesson is probably the most important to life success, "Don't start something you don't intend to finish." is another way to word it. This is even more important to startups -- if you are constantly getting features half way done and then scrapping them you should spend time figuring out why. Yes the "new feature" you thought of today might be better measured side by side than the one that is half way done, but is it better for the effort required? ------ JacobAldridge "Grinding is part of the game ... but grinding is not the game." Would that I had the wisdom to tell the difference between the grinding I _have_ to do to move me forward, and the grinding I _keep doing_ because it's there in front of me as an option. ~~~ DLWormwood That's what made me give up WoW myself a few months ago, after playing for about year and getting my sister hooked worse than me. I played rather leisurely until Blizzard added Achievements. My play style changed drastically afterwards, especially with regards to holiday events. My desire to get titles (especially the Loremaster one) really burned me out. Brewfest was the final straw, since you have to do several annoying grind quests every stinking day for the two week duration. Really ruined the game for me. (Blizz had to extend the holiday for a few days even due to glitches that really screwed up the acquisition curve.) I pity the players having to deal with the Valentine's Day event coming soon; that was the second worst, IMHO. ~~~ JacobAldridge I've never actually played (long story, but essentially my gaming tastes have been permanently stuck in 1998), so I was referring to the broader lesson in life. Glad to know the lessons continue to apply specifically and generally. ------ jyothi The post is not about WoW. It is about his take-away from the game which applies to everything in daily life and for bigger things. The list is terrific advice and preaching it through the example of a game is smart thing as one is hooked on to the reading part. Seems like most people just had a negative feel for the whole thing as they detest WoW as a waste of time. In the process they missed the gem of advice. ------ unwind I found this quote: "With my newfound time, I had a kid, wrote a couple of movies and directed one of my own." intriguing enough to dig up this imdb search: < <http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0041864/#writer> >. I'm sure the proper list is actually on Mr August's site too, but ... This might have more trivia. :) ------ anonjon The biggest thing I learned from world of warcraft: If you quit wow and spend all of that time that you would have been playing WoW on other tasks, you can actually accomplish some pretty amazing stuff. (Get in shape, become a hacker, learn music, get girls... pretty much anything.) Grinding levels in WoW takes discipline. Grinding levels in WoW can be a time investment similar to a second job. You can literally waste YEARS of your life playing WoW. If you have the energy and discipline to sit at a computer for 8 hours or whatever after you've done all of your daily stuff, you could just as easily be spending that time accomplishing something great or learning. And you will have tangible rewards that you can take with you everywhere, not just bits on a server. ~~~ patio11 Bug report: I quit WoW and all I got was bits. Bits in SVN, bits in MySQL, etc...	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Live readings from the LHC's ALICE detector - ucaetano http://alice-logbook.cern.ch/aliceOnline/alice_online.html ====== kaivi What does the _pos_ parameter in image URL specify? Looks like some kind of a filter or historical juxtaposition: [http://alice- logbook.cern.ch/aliceOnline/get_image.php?conta...](http://alice- logbook.cern.ch/aliceOnline/get_image.php?container=0&pos=8) ------ _pferreir_ A little bit of context: [http://home.cern/about/updates/2015/11/lhc-collides-ions- new...](http://home.cern/about/updates/2015/11/lhc-collides-ions-new-record- energy) ------ slagfart It's pretty cool, but why didn't they just do it on Twitch? A little chat window would be wonderful - not just for memes, but for discussion and understanding. ------ Create "How should we make it attractive for them [young people] to spend 5,6,7 years in our field, be satisfied, learn about excitement, but finally be qualified to find other possibilities?" \-- H. Schopper Potential missing staff in some areas is a separate issue, and educational programmes are not designed to make up for it. On-the-job learning and training are not separated but dynamically linked together, benefiting to both parties. In my three years of operation, I have unfortunately witnessed cases where CERN duties and educational training became contradictory and even conflicting. [http://ombuds.web.cern.ch/blog/2013/06/lets-not-confuse- stud...](http://ombuds.web.cern.ch/blog/2013/06/lets-not-confuse-students-and- fellows-missing-staff) Resolution of the Staff Council \- the Management does not propose to align the level of basic CERN salaries with those chosen as the basis for comparison; \- in the new career system a large fraction of the staff will have their advancement prospects, and consequently the level of their pension, reduced with respect to the current MARS system; \- the overall reduction of the advancement budget will have a negative impact on the contributions to the CERN Health Insurance System (CHIS); [http://cds.cern.ch/journal/CERNBulletin/2015/46/Staff%20Asso...](http://cds.cern.ch/journal/CERNBulletin/2015/46/Staff%20Association/2063669?ln=en) The situation is equally difficult for postdocs trying to make the jump to a junior faculty position or a permanent job at a national lab. The Snowmass Young Physicists survey received responses from 956 early-career researchers, including 343 postdocs. But INSPIRE currently lists just 152 "junior" positions, including 61 in North America. And the supply of jobs isn't likely to increase, says John Finley, an astrophysicist at Purdue University in West Lafayette, Indiana, who is leading a search to replace two senior particle physicists. Indeed, even while giving complete satisfaction, they have no forward vision about the possibility of pursuing a career at CERN. This lack of an element of social responsibility in the contract policy is unacceptable. Rather than serve as a cushion of laziness for supervisors, who often have only a limited and utilitarian view when defining the opening of an IC post, the contract policy must ensure the inclusion of an element of social justice, which is cruelly absent today. [http://staff- association.web.cern.ch/content/unsatisfactory-...](http://staff- association.web.cern.ch/content/unsatisfactory-contract-policy) Pensions which will be applicable to new recruits as of 1 January 2012; the Management and CERN Council adopted without any concertation and decided in June 2011 to adopt very unfavourable mesures for new recruits. [http://www.gac- epa.org/History/Bulletins/42-2012-04/Bulletin...](http://www.gac- epa.org/History/Bulletins/42-2012-04/Bulletin42-en.html) precarity at CERN, aka cheap disposable temp labour w/o healthcare: [http://www.tdg.ch/geneve/actu-genevoise/suisse-prete- aider-e...](http://www.tdg.ch/geneve/actu-genevoise/suisse-prete-aider- employes-detaches-cern/story/15383927)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ridiculous-Sounding Math Classes Currently Offered at Liberal-Arts Colleges - MotorMouths http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/10/math_classes_for_people_who_ca.html ====== tshtf "This is why Asia is winning, by the way?" The first in the list is Topology, and as stated in the course catalog ([http://www.slc.edu/undergraduate/study/science- mathematics/m...](http://www.slc.edu/undergraduate/study/science- mathematics/mathematics/courses.html)) it has calculus and instructor permission as prerequisites. I'm fairly certain Topology is considered advanced math in Asia too. Some of the other ones in the list seem bogus, however. ------ CWuestefeld _Topology: The Nature of Shape and Space_ This is real, serious mathematics. I think that painting this as nonsense shows that the writer doesn't have the strongest background in mathematics. ~~~ maxawaytoolong All except 2 of the classes listed are actual math classes offered by the math department. One of them in the list (the origami one) is offered as part of a high school summer program. If you major in pure math, a lot of it does fit more in with liberal arts than it does with, say, electrical engineering. At least one great mathematician of the past boasted about how his work had no practical value. (G.H. Hardy) At these smaller liberal arts schools, math majors are often preparing to be math teachers, so learning how mathematics ties in with history, theatre, art and literature can be very helpful as a teaching aide in the future. The other thing is students at these institutions have to take a required number of "liberal arts" credits. The school will offer courses like this so that the math majors can pick up these credits from the math department, instead of the math majors having to take Theatre 101 or whatever. All that said, I thought the course titles sounded quite interesting. ------ aphyr Asia might be "winning" because the author fails to recognize that topology is a fantastically complicated topic in mathematics, just as worthy of exploration as real analysis or abstract algebra. :-(	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Car thief sprayed with invisible dye in police trap - Shivetya http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10344757/Car-thief-sprayed-with-invisible-dye-in-police-trap.html ====== adamjernst > sentenced to a community order for 49 hours and ordered to pay £400 costs at > Brent Magistrates' Court for theft from motor vehicle To me (an American), that sentence seems incredibly lenient.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Show HN: Efficiently searching compressed text files - mattgodbolt https://github.com/mattgodbolt/zindex ====== jules The article's method is nice, it allows you to decompress portions of the file. I thought this would be about the FM index. The FM index allows you to search what is essentially a bzip'd archive for a substring far more efficiently than you would be able to search an uncompressed string for a substring. Pretty mind blowing if you think about it. It works because the Burrows-Wheeler transform which is used in compression is closely related to the suffix array, which is a data structure used as a substring index. By adding a small amount of additional metadata to the compressed Burrows-Wheeler transformed string you can search for any substring. Its practical performance is slower than a suffix array, but the memory usage can be 100x lower. ------ xaa I have been wanting this for a long time, although my primary use case would be indexing a particular field. It is nice that you were able to make it work with ordinary gzip files. In bioinformatics, an approach to this problem has been to create a gzip- backwards-compatible (i.e., can be read by zcat but not written to by gzip) format called BGZF [1] which acts like ordinary gzip except each compressed block is the same size, which eases indexing and partial decompression. I would be interested to know how you solved the problem of finding the right block and offset when each compressed block can be an arbitrary size as it is in ordinary gzip format. [1] [http://blastedbio.blogspot.com/2011/11/bgzf-blocked- bigger-b...](http://blastedbio.blogspot.com/2011/11/bgzf-blocked-bigger- better-gzip.html) ~~~ mattgodbolt Fantastic! I had hoped others would have the same problem as me. I didn't have the luxury of being able to change my many input gzip files (unlike BGZF). The trick is to store the gzip internal state as a checkpoint every few hundred MB. Then to decode data at a particular offset, you find the further internal state that's before your offset; reinitialize the compression internal state with that, and then scan on until you get to the offset you need. The zindex file that's generated contains both these checkpoints and the index that lets one scan there. There's an open issue I'd like to resolve to add support for indexing a particular field: would support for arguments like those the "cut" UNIX utility allow for your use case? ~~~ xaa Smart. I will see for myself in a minute how much space such an approach takes; I would imagine the compressor size gets nontrivially large on big files. Well, my exact use case, which I imagine I'm not alone in, is indexing a tab- delimited file with a single-line header containing the column names. So indexing by column index would be adequate, but it would present two very minor problems: 1) I'd have to figure out a way to exclude the header row from output (or alternately, to always output it), and 2) it would be slightly more convenient to refer to the columns to be indexed by name rather than position, as some of these have thousands of columns. Can you have multiple indexes on the same GZIP file? And if so, does it create multiple .zindex files or re-use the same one? I don't know if SQLite supports custom data retrieval backends like Postgres, but what would be REALLY interesting is to write one such that the indexing information is in SQLite, and you can use SQL to query row data directly from the GZIP index (I know this is beyond the scope of your project, I'm just thinking out loud now). ~~~ mattgodbolt Short reply as I'm on a phone, but thanks! I can add an option to pick the nth field, and to skip the first X lines of the input; I think this'd cover your use case! The code and file format support multiple indices in the same zindex file but I haven't got a decent way to pass command line arguments to define them yet! Watch this space: also feel free to ping me on email for more comments! ------ cjbprime Yep, this is a neat idea. I first saw it as part of Patrick Collison's wikipedia-iphone project (2007-ish), which could pull Wikipedia articles out of a compressed bz2 archive, by indexing from article name into bzip2 block and then only decompressing the needed blocks for the article you asked for. We adapted his code at One Laptop Per Child to preload Wikipedia snapshots on every laptop: [http://blog.printf.net/articles/2008/06/02/wikipedia-on- xo/](http://blog.printf.net/articles/2008/06/02/wikipedia-on-xo/) [http://blog.printf.net/articles/2010/05/09/peru-olpc-and- wik...](http://blog.printf.net/articles/2010/05/09/peru-olpc-and-wikipedia/) ------ PaulHoule Something people don't know about gzip is that you can write a file as multiple compressed segments and gzip will decompress one segment and then decompress the next segment. Thus you can get the benefit of being restartable the way bzip2 is but it is optional and flexible so you can break only on record boundaries. ~~~ gojomo Indeed! Restarting at record boundaries is one option. Then an external index can point to all the ragged restart offsets, or some applications may be able to just scan for the distinct byte-patterns of likely restart offsets. Restarting at every N-bytes boundary – for example, every 128K – is another option, though that requires a little more fancy thought to padding. Another way to skip the need for an external index using any of these techniques, but still know the raw-data line/byte-offset when jumping to a deep position, is to encode those tallies (either chunk-by-chunk or from- start) as GZIP header "extra field" extensions. (Here's an example extension that just records per-chunk compressed- and uncompressed- byte-lengths: [http://archive- access.sourceforge.net/warc/warc_file_format-...](http://archive- access.sourceforge.net/warc/warc_file_format-0.9.html#anchor25)) ------ covi Take a look at "Succinct: Enabling Queries on Compressed Data", NSDI 2015 [1]. [1] [https://www.usenix.org/conference/nsdi15/technical- sessions/...](https://www.usenix.org/conference/nsdi15/technical- sessions/presentation/agarwal) ------ 101914 Reminds me of dictzip. [http://sourceforge.net/projects/dict/files/latest/download](http://sourceforge.net/projects/dict/files/latest/download) ------ dpkendal Why not store the log files in an FM-index? ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM-index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM- index)) ~~~ mattgodbolt Interesting point, thanks for the link! For my use case I wanted to put stuff together without writing too much novel code; zindex uses a SQLite file to store indices and checkpoints. I'm hoping to add json support to zq/zindex, which means a general text search isn't that useful. Additionally the original log files I run against in my use case are generated upstream of me and are many many multi-gigabyte gzipped log files. I didn't want to add too much extra storage for my logs: the "key" I index on is a tiny part of my log, so the storage space for the index is considerably less than the original text (even accounting for the gzip checkpoints). ------ hackmiester I only wish that the matching could be 'fuzzy' in easily defined ways. My use case is MAC addresses. So, if I search for 'dead.beef.cafe', this would be perfect if it could know that I wanted to see entries indexed by 'DE:AD:BE:EF:CA:FE" also. Is that possible? This tool is so amazing. If it did this, it would be able to hugely improve my daily workflow. edit: Actually, it is going to be able to hugely improve my workflow anyway, because I often want to see data about IP version 4 addresses, too, and it handles those fine. But I'd still like to be able to use it for MACs. ~~~ mattgodbolt Great idea. zq uses the SQLite index built by zindex; so in theory I can modify it to use a 'WHERE index LIKE xxx' instead of 'WHERE index=xxx' \-- then SQLish wildcards would be supported. I've raised an issue to capture this use case; feel free to chime in there! :) [https://github.com/mattgodbolt/zindex/issues/12](https://github.com/mattgodbolt/zindex/issues/12) ------ nattaylor About how long does it take to create the index, maybe compared to a zgrep? Could it be parallelized with something like `parallel --pipe`? I haven't tried yet, but this seems like a great tool. ~~~ mattgodbolt Thanks! For my logfiles it runs through them at around 3MB/sec (that's 3MB of compressed file per second). Most of it is probably I/O, my giant logs are on NFS. I run the indexer in parallel on multiple log files: in general there's no way to parallelize the indexing of a single file as decompressing a gzipped file requires all the bytes up to that point. Unless you already have a gzip checkpoint around somewhere, you need to sequentially scan: this is part of what zindex does to allow quick random access. Thanks for the feedback :) ------ dangirsh See "succinct data structures" and "wavelet trees" for a similar / more general idea. news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7079427 I also must thank Edward Kmett for introducing me to these. ------ est It suddenly strike me that in a compressed file, you don't have to decompress then grep, you can grep for Huffman table and know exactly where the occurrences are. ~~~ jimktrains2 The table doesn't contain the location in the file, only a mapping of bit sequence to original sequence. LZW also doesn't contain information on where sequences are. However, you could construct the compressed version of your search string and search for it (or in the case of LZW, generate it as you continue to search and decompress only small portions as needed). Either way, you still have to go through the file. at least once. EDIT: Actually, if your search string falls inside a compression block, it may be more difficult without uncompressing (and then discarding). ------ listic I understand that generated log files are generated upstream of you, but how much does compressing them actually wins? I guess for most of us it's better to just search plain text files, if possible? ~~~ sp332 As a rule of thumb, English in ASCII compresses 8:1. I would guess that log files compress even better because they tend to be repetitive. Edit: well best case is 8:1 if you put a lot of time into it. Gzip with default settings is more like 4:1 which is still significant. ~~~ listic How can you optimize for better compression ratios with gzip? ~~~ sp332 gzip's default is -6, but -9 gives better compression. If you can sort your data or otherwise organize it so that similar data is grouped together, it has a better chance of finding the redundancy. Some implementations get better compression than the GNU implementation. The best one I know of is from the 7zip project. Other compression formats can give better ratios, if that's an option for your project. bzip2, xz, 7z. ------ mianos Columnar databases all do this. Handy having a library to have a play with. ------ sultanofsaltin Isn't there a company doing this called Pied Piper... ~~~ frik Check out the technology section at [http://www.piedpiper.com](http://www.piedpiper.com) Btw. welcome to _Silicon Valley_. ------ frik Strigi desktop search (2006) implementation was very powerful ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strigi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strigi)). It was possible to search through an compressed archive inside an compressed archive - in a memory and space efficient way -> "streaming". Strigi uses the Jstream C++ library which allows for deep indexing of files. See this slides from 2006: [http://www.vandenoever.info/software/strigi/akademy2006.pdf](http://www.vandenoever.info/software/strigi/akademy2006.pdf) . The CLucene (C++ port of Java Lucene) also uses the Jstream library ([http://sourceforge.net/projects/clucene/](http://sourceforge.net/projects/clucene/)). Jstream works similar to the Java "InputStream". Given the discontinued status of Strigi and CLucene, it would be great if one would maintain the Jstream C++ library. Or take its ideas and implement it in zindex.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Anderson Cooper on the NSA, Black Hat Heckling, Amash and Snowden - bendoernberg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-p0GUJ4XG8 This is why we should support individuals who speak out against someone like General Alexander ====== bendoernberg This is why we should applaud individuals who have the courage to stand up to those, like General Alexander, who threaten the freedoms of the entire world.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Living in the Cloud - My New Year's Resolution from 2011 - leahculver http://blog.leahculver.com/2011/12/living-in-the-cloud-my-2011-new-years-resolution.html ====== andyking I'm moving home (out of my parents, over to Yorkshire for a new job) in the next couple of weeks and I'm doing something similar for entertainment. Rather than shelling out £12 a month for a broadcast TV licence for my new house, I'm using that money on a decent internet connection (S Yorkshire has subsidised FTTC broadband), buying a nicer monitor instead of a TV, and just watching recorded and on-demand stuff online. Having said that, I'm not sure about the other stuff. I actually _like_ going out into town and buying my groceries. It's social interaction, it supports local shops, it's a great way to get to know the place and the people. I could easily sit in front of a computer, pull up Tesco.com and order stuff in, but it's not the same. I'd actually question whether that's even "living in the cloud" - surely it's just internet shopping as it's been since about 1999? The same goes for radio. Yes, you can switch on Spotify, Pandora, Rdio or any one of those services and hear your favourite songs, non-stop and commercial- free. But who introduces you to new artists, who gives you news and opinion, who provides the bits between the songs, tells you what's happening in town that weekend, tells you when the road's closed? Spotify is just your musical bubble, in a long, boring loop. I couldn't live without my radio in the room. (Disclaimer: I work in FM radio.) The cloud is great, the cloud is an innovation, the cloud is very useful for many, many things (I use Dropbox, Google Docs, iPlayer, and so on heavily.) But to move your entire life online? I work all week sitting in front of a PC. I couldn't transform my free time into that too. ~~~ davej > But who introduces you to new artists, who gives you news and opinion, who > provides the bits between the songs... You can listen to pretty much any radio station (local/national/international) online though. ~~~ andyking Good point. I have the fantastic Pure One Flow[1], a radio which looks like any other old-fashioned set, but which picks up local stations on FM, the national and regional stuff over DAB digital, and then connects to wi-fi to receive internet streams from all over the world. It's a brilliant device, and so seamless. Switching from the FM community station two streets away to a broadcast from Seattle takes seconds. It'll also connect to a uPnP server and play your own music collection over the LAN. I prefer a converged solution like this, rather than just picking up live radio online all the time. Listening on FM and DAB saves bandwidth, and a lot of local stations are broadcast in better quality than they're streamed. FM is, to all intents and purposes, lossless. This is the kind of thing 'everything-in-the-cloud' advocates forget. Broadcasting is just so efficient for sending one programme service out to millions of people. It'll never go away. [1]: [http://www.pure.com/products/product.asp?Product=VL-61558...](http://www.pure.com/products/product.asp?Product=VL-61558&Category=) ------ BillPosters Someone should mention: this "cloud" is not actually a cloud, but relies on physical things to exist. At both ends, loads of electric current is needed. It relies on mining to bring the infrastructure, and it replaces your own information management with facilities managed by people you'll never meet and companies you'll barely know. But you have to trust them and agree to their terms, and become their customer. Living in the cloud could be the most you've ever sold out without knowing it. My advice: keep a few books. Bookshelves can be left in standby mode for years without needing a recharge. When people come over you can hand them a book, maybe an art book, and they will enjoy flicking through the pages. The UX of a book is top notch. Leave and rotate a few on the coffee table (if you have a coffee table, or is that in the cloud too?). ------ jordanmessina Interesting resolution. I wish Leah went into some of the negative affects living in the "cloud" had, rather than just promote all the services she uses. ~~~ gwillen The problem is, most of the negative effects of the cloud are not immediate downsides; rather they are future risks of catastrophe, which people are generally very bad at measuring and accounting for. What's the probability that Google accidentally flags you for abuse and eats your Gmail account tomorrow, consuming your internet identity along with 5 years of email, documents, blogposts, photos, videos, etc.? How do you rationally place an expected value on that outcome? ~~~ ratsbane I had never given it much though, but Tuesday my primary gmail account went down. This (<http://douglassims.org/gmaildown.png>) is all I've seen of it since then. My contacts, calendar, lunch plans, flight reservations, all are unavailable to me. It's made this week rather a catastrophe. It's also made me reconsider my dependence on the cloud and I'm going to start the new year off trying to take back control. I've had no indication from Google as to when it might be back, but I see in some forum postings that at least one person with the same error message had 84 days of downtime. It's sort of a black swan thing - very unlikely, but with such great consequences that it's worth avoiding. ------ mahmoudimus This is awesome. It's showing how more and more of today's society is moving to niche marketplaces. Roughly 30-35% of Leah's "Cloud" living was simply offloaded to marketplaces that perform a niche service. Of course, I realize I might be using the word marketplaces loosely. ------ dicroce I think this list is super cool, but I think it'd actually be pretty expensive to live like this. ------ overshard As someone who lives in the cloud already, and has been for a few years, it's very easy and efficient. I use Chrome's sync to have all my bookmarks everywhere, lastpass to keep my passwords, pandora for my music, google reader for my news, github for my code, gmail and google calendar, and dropbox with a truecrypt blob for ssh keys, gpg keys and a few other things. It's not hard to live in the cloud you just have to deal with a service possibly going away or falling apart security wise. If you make the proper precautions it's all good. ------ dons Interesting that this is mostly about lowering costs by exploiting, and encouraging, the increase in liquidity of many goods and services, facilitated by tech infrastructure. ------ blago I'm still stuck on the web :-(	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
An annotation of the Rust standard library - foogered https://github.com/brson/annotated-std-rs ====== mdup If you're wondering where the content actually is, take a look at the commit, where comments are written alongside the code: [https://github.com/brson/annotated-std- rs/commit/e50c2b16455...](https://github.com/brson/annotated-std- rs/commit/e50c2b16455ceff29488bf1f058b6c10906ef990) ~~~ taternuts Still not very much content - not sure if this was worth posting yet ~~~ bronson No, but it demonstrates a neat way to use github. Next time someone asks me to annotate some code, rather than fighting with a word doc or throwing gazillions of comments inline, I'm going to try this out. ------ Animats It looks like Rust picks up where GCC left off in terms of compile options. I hope this gets cleaned up in later releases as features either become stable or are dropped. This looks like heavy technical debt from the startup phase. ~~~ kibwen Stabilizing the features used in the standard library is an ongoing process, yes.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Making the web faster with SPDY and HTTP/2 - cleverjake http://blog.chromium.org/2013/11/making-web-faster-with-spdy-and-http2.html ====== cpg SPDY is a common sense protocol in many ways. It seems simple but it has quite a few wrinkles when implementing it properly. As a way to learn Go I started a Go SPDY library[1] and to demo it also released a SPDY proxy and origin server [2]. At this point we're about to release a service in our startup to do streaming. I'm looking for users who want to bang on this library and help shake more bugs to make it more and more solid. Interested? :) [1] [https://github.com/amahi/spdy](https://github.com/amahi/spdy) [2] [https://github.com/amahi/spdy-proxy](https://github.com/amahi/spdy-proxy) ~~~ thrownaway2424 [http://godoc.org/code.google.com/p/go.net/spdy](http://godoc.org/code.google.com/p/go.net/spdy) ? ~~~ cpg This is a low level, data-structure type of library, whereas the one we wrote is part of a stack between HTTP and SPDY. ------ IvyMike Tangential, but it's fun to see which sites are actually delivering you content over SPDY. FF SPDY indicator: [https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/spdy- indicato...](https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/spdy-indicator/) Chrome SPDY indicator: [https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/spdy- indicator/mpb...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/spdy- indicator/mpbpobfflnpcgagjijhmgnchggcjblin?hl=en) In my little sphere of internet usage: Big sites like Google, Facebook, and Twitter appear to almost always use SPDY. HN uses SPDY. And very few other sites. (I think wikipedia is a surprising non-user, but I'm not a web guy, so what do I know.) ~~~ newman314 I don't see HN using SPDY anymore... Anyone else? ------ spyder Looks like they also experiment with the QUIC protocol on their sites (on YouTube too) because there is a HTTP header called: Alternate-Protocol 443:quic in their requests. QUIC isn't enabled by default in Chrome but you can enable it in chrome://flags and then you can also check chrome://net- internals/#events to see if there are any "QUIC SESSION" when you load a page. Benchmark shows they still have to work on it: [http://www.connectify.me/taking-google-quic-for-a-test- drive...](http://www.connectify.me/taking-google-quic-for-a-test-drive/) ------ Lagged2Death SPDY is a good idea in general, but the average web site shouldn't be expected to see the same gains that a Google property (which is tuned like a mofo and which is usually hosted entirely through Google-controlled domains) will: [http://www.guypo.com/technical/not-as-spdy-as-you- thought/](http://www.guypo.com/technical/not-as-spdy-as-you-thought/) HTTP's high-frequency back-and-forth shuffle is a good thing to eliminate, but most of the time, there are more serious bottlenecks somewhere else. You can play with it easily enough in FF: set network.http.spdy.enabled to FALSE and see if Google News really seems any different to you as a human being. ------ bct anotherbadlogin: You have been hellbanned for a long time.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Design Patterns 15 years later: Interview with GoF - prog http://www.informit.com/articles/printerfriendly.aspx?p=1404056 ====== habitue Despite the flak design patterns get these days in some circles, these guys seem eminently reasonable. ------ Isamu Check out Erich's comments at the end: > I'm in favor of dropping Singleton. Its use is almost always a design smell. YES. > Factory Method would be generalized to Factory. Yes. > The new members are: Null Object, Type Object, Dependency Injection, and > Extension Object/Interface Somebody kill the term "Dependency Injection" - we have never needed an obfuscation of "late binding". ~~~ bfung >Somebody kill the term "Dependency Injection" ... Agree enough to take arms and post. Dependency Injection is really just a marketing term; programming via interfaces is mostly what the DI camp is after, and then selling tools/framework support to automagically "inject" implementations. In my opinion, esp. in the Java world, setter injection is code smell. ~~~ hello_moto Who sells dependency injection tools these days? I agree that setter injection is bad but unfortunately some Java libraries/frameworks/guidelines have a rule that enforce the developer to create a class with default constructor thus preventing constructor injection. ------ GFischer They even give a startup idea - some kind of social network for pattern recomendation (design guidelines?): "people that found this pattern useful have also liked this one..." ~~~ strait "4 girls in your area want to discuss Chain-of-responsibility." haha	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Use Google Moderator To Crowdsource Group Questions - terpua http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/09/25/use-google-moderator-to-crowdsource-group-questions/ ====== terpua Sounds like a "feature" of slinkset.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Often have you had to re-write a legacy front end application - mohanarpit How often have you needed to modernize a legacy frontend application and re-build them using a more modern technology/framework like React/Angular etc.?<p>At my current job, I have to migrate a JQuery dashboard to React. I was wondering what other people's experience has been in this regard.<p>What were some of the pitfalls that I should look out for?<p>If you ever had to do it, what was the most painful part of this migration? ====== cimmanom OT: the automatic removal of “how” from the beginning of titles is not exactly working out so well. ------ dyeje It's a fairly common task in my experience. Focus on converting one component at a time and it should go smoothly. Don't try to do a complete rewrite at once. ------ ezekg Using React, an incremental re-write is pretty easy, since it can be plugged in for certain components as they become available. Slowly re-write components in React as you modify them, and always write new components in React. Not sure about Vue, but I believe it's the same.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
TI introduces DLP for headlights - rbanffy https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/business/ti-introduces-dlp-headlights-2018-01/ ====== junkcollector I got a demo of this technology close to about 10 years ago from TI. Their "killer app" in the lab was a pairing of the DLP with their DSPs to track rain while driving and reduce illumination of rain drops such that glare to the driver was substantially reduced. It was in a lab, but it worked surprisingly well. Another thing that many people don't realize is that TI makes a huge number of automotive parts currently with extremely tight reliability controls in place for customers like Toyota, as well as established supply chains from silicon to road via companies like Temic automotive. Personally, I hope TI continues to develop DLP into new markets. The tech is really cool, their miniaturized projectors using laser sources for embedding into smartphones is another demo I saw that would be really interesting if it ever hits market. ~~~ metaphor > Another thing that many people don't realize is that TI makes a huge number > of automotive parts currently with extremely tight reliability controls... Any idea how many of those leverage MEMS tech at the scale and complexity of DLP? DLP complexity + high vibration platform + operating temperature extremes on both ends of the gamut doesn't strike me as reliable by any stretch of imagination. ~~~ junkcollector TI makes some MEMS devices for automotive applications, but I don't know of anything in automotive with the type of complexity involved in a DLP. Their mixed signal integrated controls are pretty nuts but not mechanical. The reason I'm not to worried about reliability is more or less as follows. The fact that TI makes other automotive parts is important because they know exactly what kind of environment these parts will be subjected to, they know how they will be handled when they are assembled from the chips TI ships into automotive boards, and what corners will be cut when those boards are sold and turned into assemblies which are sold and turned into cars. They have plenty of experience in determining what kind of reliability intervals will be required. TI built their first DLPs back in the 80s. They made their first commercial ones in the mid 90's. They probably never turned a profit on DLP until the mid 2000's which is about when they first demonstrated working prototype DLP headlights. They then spent 10 years refining them before taking them to market. TI isn't Facebook, they don't move fast and break things, they are an old school technology company that moves slow and reliable. If they get a reputation for poor reliability they stand to lose decades of investment and future revenue and they know it. Another thing a lot of people probably don't know is that every TI part that fails in an automotive application gets returned to TI where a team of engineers meticulously dismantle it until they determine the exact cause of failure. They are legally obligated to do this from contracts with auto manufacturers but the net results for TI has been the development of one of the worlds most sophisticated semi-conductor reverse engineering capabilities. ------ post_break If we can't have adaptive high beams [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSI- NVD1who](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSI-NVD1who)] in the US we definitely can't have DLP. DOT for headlights in the US is awful. There should be revamped laws for headlights. When the base model has better output with terrible reflector technology than halogen projector you've screwed up the regulations. [http://www.iihs.org/iihs/news/desktopnews/more-than-half- of-...](http://www.iihs.org/iihs/news/desktopnews/more-than-half-of-midsize- suv-headlights-tested-rate-marginal-or-poor) ~~~ nerpderp83 When you get your retinas burned out by HID bulb in an oncoming car, thank the DOT. Rating is based on watts delivered to lights, not photons delivered to driver. Law shouldn't even have type checked. ~~~ u801e About 17 years ago, the NHTSA had a public comment period about glare from headlamps. One response [1] was particularly informative. [1] [https://www.regulations.gov/contentStreamer?documentId=NHTSA...](https://www.regulations.gov/contentStreamer?documentId=NHTSA-2001-8885-3657&attachmentNumber=1&contentType=pdf) ~~~ nerpderp83 > Automaker philanthropy cannot be relied upon to control headlamp glare. This is exceedingly well written. ------ u801e It would be nice if the US would update their headlamp beam pattern standards to be in line with the rest of the world. They allow low beams with insufficient beam width (leading people to use their fog lamps to address the issue), to much glare for oncoming traffic (lack of an asymmetric cutoff), and high beams that are limited to half the hotspot intensity. Also the fact that they require a manual switch between low and high beam prevents the introduction of more advanced vehicle lighting systems that are available in the rest of the world. ------ phkahler I had this idea more than a decade ago but for another reason. If you're driving in heavy snow, the headlights light up large flakes near the car and make it hard to see beyond them. If you add another light at a non-visible wavelength and an image sensor whose pixels can be mapped to the DPL light at very high frame rates, you could turn off the visible lighting that illuminates the big bright snow flakes. Suddenly the stuff you want to see in the distance would be more visible. When I first thought of it, resolution seemed OK but frame rate would probably not have been high enough. I recently revisited the idea and it seems entirely possible today. Snow Lights. ~~~ todd8 That's such a good idea, and it's just the sort of inventive thinking that I really like hearing: the problem is obvious and anybody that knew anything about DLP's should realize that they can very rapidly control the illumination of any pixel, but who would come up with the idea of controlling light like that! ------ todd8 TI's DLP technology, used in 85% of digital cinema displays, utilizes a matrix of tiny articulated mirrors, one for each pixel. Each of these mirrors has two controllable positions (for example +17 degrees and -17 degrees). A separate light source (LED, laser, etc.) shines on the matrix, and the mirrors within the matrix at one of the orientations reflect light at the target. These devices have been used in projection systems since 1997. See [1] and [2]. The advantage in automotive applications is that the light can be bright enough for automotive applications while allowing the illuminated area to be controlled through software. Illumination levels and regions can be modulated in response to the car's speed, steering, location, recognition of oncoming cars, etc. [3] [1] [http://www.ti.com/dlp-chip/getting-started.html](http://www.ti.com/dlp- chip/getting-started.html) [2] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Light_Processing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Light_Processing) [3] [http://www.ti.com/dlp- chip/automotive/overview.html](http://www.ti.com/dlp- chip/automotive/overview.html) ------ todd8 I noticed on the TI DLP product web page for automotive [1] that heads up displays are another intended use. I've driven my daughter's car and really like color heads up display in her vehicle--It took a few minutes to get used. The ability to see the essential GPS information floating ahead in my field of view was far less distracting than having to look down at the instrument panel to read it. [1] [http://www.ti.com/dlp- chip/automotive/applications/applicati...](http://www.ti.com/dlp- chip/automotive/applications/applications.html) ------ cjsuk This sounds expensive and unreliable and will just result in very expensive headlight assemblies that have to be replaced entirely. Also inability to get the parts to fix them a decade down the line. This is already a problem with some vehicles with relatively simple lamp assemblies. ~~~ todd8 They will certainly be more complex in the sense that software will control the areas in the drivers view to be illuminated, but headlight assemblies that respond to steering position and car pitch angle are already expensive and burdened with electromechanical mechanisms to direct the light. They make a large difference in safety though. TI DLP will allow this to happen without all of the electromechanical mechanisms. The DLP technology has been around for 20 years. ~~~ Bromskloss > TI DLP will allow this to happen without all of the electromechanical > mechanisms. Do we not count a DLP as an electromechanical device? ~~~ todd8 Well, I did hesitate when I was writing that statement, and technically you are right that microscopic mirrors positioned by electrostatic forces are electromechanical. :) My original point, and what my complete sentence said, is that the this one large solid state chip is able to serve as in advanced automotive lighting functions without all of the (currently used) electromechanical mechanisms. It really is quite different and has unique advantages. Here's a YouTube video that explains the operation of a DLP: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nb8mM3uEIc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nb8mM3uEIc) ------ mschuster91 DLPs are sensitive enough for shock and alignment issues when in a projector - how are they planning to do this with a car?! ------ tinus_hn Great, now you can pay for your car to project ads onto the road! ------ westmeal I imagine instead of making headlights easier to replace it's going to skyrocket in price and run off of closed source software. Why would this be a good addition for cars? ~~~ nateguchi I'm currently in the annoying situation where I need to replace the "Adaptive" LED headlights on my BMW, these units cost ~£3000 which is significantly more than the alternative (bulbs).... ~~~ nerpderp83 > BMW You signed up for this. ------ jordache why would you want a specific shape to be projected by your headlights? Having a sharp level of light beam defined, I agree. Why would you want shape? You want everything to be lit up in front of the vehicle. This would hold true even for autonomous vehicles, where you blast the area in front of you with some wavelength of light. ~~~ chillingeffect I understand your comment as the details of the usefulness are buried pretty deep. I had to dig down to the 2nd half of sentence #2 to get the answer: "while minimizing the glare to oncoming traffic or reflections from retroreflective traffic signs." ~~~ jordache >reflections from retroreflective traffic signs. So you mask out the stop sign in front of you, and that diminishes the visibility of the sign. Or the light masks the stop sign and lowers the intensity of light within that octagon? Then you have a camera from the perspective of each headlight, then what? You flood the scene with IR light? I guess it could work - It will require a lot of supporting technologies that TI is probably not in the position to develop. ~~~ chillingeffect > TI is probably not in the position to develop. Once again, they've buried the details way deep down in this article, nearly impossible to find. In this outlandish case, I had to reach as far down as the 1st half of the second sentence which subtly discloses (emphasis mine): " __ _Automakers and Tier-1 suppliers_ __can use this new programmable ADB solution to design headlight systems "	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }

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